Of Nagas And Devas

[camerata]

I lifted this series of posts from a board I used to be active on. All I can tell you about the guy who wrote them is he lives in New Zealand, he seems youngish, he had previously been a just a regular poster, and he's been interested in Buddhism for only 15 months. What do you think of his experiences?

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I know some people are interested in my life, and I would like to announce that I have "Gone forth" from my home at a monastery, to homelessness as a wanderer.

The Abbot of Bodhinyanarama decided the guests were inconvienient and one fine afternoon, booted everyone out!

And so I found myself a homeless one, so homeless I didn't even have a religion anymore, I'd let go of my past friends and environments, and had no plans. The perfect oppurtunity to just wander in the here and now, live day by day. And I mean perfect - for at the Monastery I was living in an immaculate Kuti and my conduct was impeccable, there was very little scope for me to grow there, and most the other guests were in a similiar boat. It is time to wander.

My meditation practise advanced greatly and you can read about that in the meditation discussion forum, my 7 weeks at Bodhinyanarama were invaluable.

For now, I wander the world as a backpacker, I have a chanting book so I continue to chant every morning and evening, I can meditate a lot, and talk to people a bit, and generally just be someone who is invisible with no agenda, much as a young Monk should be, except I'm in colors rather than brown or white. I still hope to ordain as a Forest Monk, it will probably be under Ajahn Brahm, or in Thailand.

If you wish to discuss anything with me, please feel free to e-mail me, check my profile for my email. I will not likely be using these forums much since I wish to have few attachments to anything, including the internet.

For those who are worried about my safety, please don't be. My heart shines forth so brightly with such radiance and I chant so sweetly, that deva's come to admire my pure heart, listen to me chant and watch over me and help me in any way they can. The protection and company of deva's is unsurpassed (except by the company of noble ones) and they lift all worries from my heart and fill my heart with gladness.

For those who worry for my sanity, well heheheh I always like to say that practise is mainly about going crazy then finding peace . There are no Deva's in Nibanna!

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While the stated reason for the guests being asked to leave, was that they had become inconvient, I was also told the police would be called to evict me if I wasn't out by that afternoon! So it really seemed that the old Abbot, a Monk of many years, found his guests of impeccable conduct, very THREATENING and EMBRASSING to himself, his self-view. But also, a Monk of great compassion, also assured me that it was best for my own welfare that I wander in the world of worldly people for a time, and that's a Monk I trusted with my life itself.

I will have you know I experienced two of the three "Break down and cry" events mentioned by Ajahn Chah. The second was from having to leave all my friends and the environment I had loved!

But after that, I was completely unattached to the past, it no longer caused Dukkha that I had to leave all the friends I loved.

So understand that things work in mysterious ways! Spiritual growth comes from the most surprising directions!

At present I've decided I will never be ordaining as a Forest Monk, having learned everything I can from that tradition and having been turned away from it as a result (you see; it's just a natural thing). That does not mean I will not be wearing the robes of another tradition, however! And of course my mind changes like the weather .

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The path is so hard that it takes MANY lifetimes to cultivate the mental qualities needed to attain nibanna.

Within 7 weeks in the Forest Tradition, I was conducting myself perfectly in terms of thought, speech and mind. Many Monks and Nuns cannot manage this even after dozens of years!

The conclusion is inescapable;

This is not my first life-time as a Monk or Nun. In fact I am quite certain I was a VERY devote Nun in my previous lifetime, one quite BITTER that she had to stay with 8/10 precepts because she was a woman, but this caused her to be even MORE serious about conducting herself faultlessly and following every rule of the Viyana which she possibly could.

After her body expired she seeked a male body, that she may fullfil her dreams of being a "Real" Monastic rather than one who merely followed a lot of rules which she didn't 'have' to.

Of course, Irony always wins in the end.

Regardless, I have nothing left to LEARN in terms of conduct. I have much to TEACH and INSPIRE in terms of conduct, but the Forest Tradition already has powerfully inspiring Ajahns and I believe, that for the good of myself and all beings, I would be better off adding fresh blood (forest blood!) to another tradition. All throughout history it has been nesceary for traditions to support each other in that way, because over time they become stagnant, and rather than writing-off those traditions, it is better to reinvigorate them with an infusion of strong dhamma.

For now I am living just as I want to. I have a lot of time to meditate, and there are many troubled people who are backpackers and when the conditions are right, they will come talk to me and I can teach a little Meditation and point the way to Dhamma, such that they can be freed from suffering. Living in a Monastery I could not help lost souls in that way.

Just yesterday, I saw my loving-kindness transform the very psyche of a VERY lost soul, he came to talk to me (I usually sit alone in an empty corner of the hostel), and when I asked why, he said it's as if I'd seen straight through him, but seen nothing to fear. I taught him enough meditation to let him sleep at night (he hadn't slept in 3 nights) and will point the way to Ajahn Brahm and Bodhinyanarama Monastery. But just by relaxing in my voice imbued by the sublime abidings, I could see all the tension fleeing from his body and mind, the defilements fleeing in fear of goodness. Finally; someone he didn't have to distrust, who wasn't afraid of him, who he didn't have to be afraid of. He had to come from around the world to find such a being, and he found that being sitting alone and peacefully in an empty corner of a backpackers hostel, like any other human being, but a human being imbued with strange power.

I was sending forth "the call", my Dhamma had become strong enough that I could give some, so I sat and sent the message "If you are ready for happiness, you are welcome in my presence". The Dhamma is a lamp like that.

But my dhamma is still not very strong, so it can take days of meditation to generate enough energy that I start to shine forth. This is also why I do not bother myself with forums such as these, the power of the dhamma is found at a level deeper than words and typing and reading is really mostly just a hinderance to practise.

I am still a defiled being, I was trying to shine forth to a pretty girl who had caught my eye, but it was this lonely lost man who needed the dhamma as if his life depended on it, and in embracing him my defilements of sensual craving were weakened. It is in this kind of way, that comittment to UNIVERSAL kindness and respect, subdues the defilements. If I had treated him like an "enemy" because he was "blocking" my company for the person I "wanted" to spend time with, then you can see my heart would have been just as thick with defilements as before.

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I assert Deva's and other heavenly beings such as Naga's, as being real. Obviously I can't prove this because they do not interact with the physical world, except through the hearts/minds of living beings with physical bodies.

But being such a living body which they are able/willing to interact with, and having the discernement to see that there's no other explaination for the phenomnia which arises, I am inclined to assert the existence of Devas and other heavenly beings as an explaination for my experience, which otherwise is inexplicable.

Why do Noble Ones delight in Solitude?

It's not because they like being lonely. It's because they like the company of devas! These unseen beings do not like being near normal humans, because humans usually have heavy and ugly hearts and these deva's are very sensitive to ugliness and suffering and turn away from it so they don't get hurt.

So only when one places oneself in Solitude, will the Deva's (who also like solitude) come out and play or offer help.

I may be going a little wacky, but I felt compelled to go chanting in a forest and on a hill top in the middle of the night, chanting with all my strength of heart. I had no choice! I had to go chant in the forest and on the hilltop, I was compelled and imbued with such energy that if I didn't chant to relase the energy I wouldn't have been able to sleep or anything. I could feel a very powerful presence which I believe was a Naga or a similiar being more powerful than a Deva, and it had heard me earlier walking through the forest and wanted me to come back and expound more on the virtues of sharing and kindness, and to do so with all my heart so as many beings as possible may hear. And so it bouyed my heart with it's own and thus energized me to an incredible extent.

So I chanted all the verses which I knew would be useful and gave very basic meditation instructions, along with encouragement for the unseen beings to stop turning away from those who are suffering, and to have the courage to help, even though it can lead to pain, because only by being selfless in that way and risking suffering, can they attain liberation.

I spend enough time chanting to and communicating with the unseen beings that I have surely gone entirely insane if they don't exist! The reason I assert the existence of unseen audiences for my chanting is that when I chant in solitude I feel tremendously energized and enthused, exactly as if a crowd was smiling broadly and applauding my performance and begging I chant some more and being inspired to go forth and do good. While if I chant around humans it's like I have no audience at all! Humans just don't give a toss about this sharing stuff!

But one thing to understand; is that Deva's and heavenly beings do not use language! It's sort of like how you can communicate with people using body language, but Deva's don't even have bodies! So it's actually communicating using heart language! My heart, my sense of feelings is very strong and sensitive, so that is how they communicate with me. Also they know I don't like being bothered in my Meditation, so they mostly just communicate with me when I am walking in the outdoors, because they know I like company when walking. Deva's are very considerate like that, as a rule.

When I'm meditating the Deva who is most emotionally attached to me just reclines next to me. It knows I like noble silence and "silent company". This Deva has been with me and watching over me for a long time and is probably one of my best spiritual friends.

The Buddha says that 100% of the path is having good friends. This quote only truly made deep sense to me once my heart opened to the unseen beings. They are EXCELLENT friends, so much more supportive than most humans. So the Noble Ones delight in solitude, because they delight in the company of good friends, friends who will support them on this hard spiritual path.

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If I knew a way to learn the ways of kindness and caring and respect, without opening ones heart to heartbreak and pain, I would surely teach that way.

But in my experience, the lessons on how to treat others with kindness and respect, must be learned the hard, painful way.

Many will refuse the kindness and respect, prefering to cling to their suffering. But there are skilful means to let the kindness and respect be felt...

I do believe that all beings must learn these ways for themselves, from direct experience.

Certainly, no harm can come to humans from the kindness of a Deva or other heavenly being. At worst, they can just refuse the gladness/happiness. Which is their own stupidity. And yes, it cuts the Deva's heart deeply when their heartfelt and pure kindness and caring is refused, but that is the kind of pain which leads to growth and liberation and the ever-increasing application of effort in order to do that which must be done.

And treating others with kindness and respect is SKILFULL not mindless. It's a skill, which like any other, takes time to learn and master. Intitially any being is quite mindless in their efforts to be kind and respectful, but if they put their heart into it they will very quickly learn.

The instructions I give are quite simple and precise. And always, I chant the Buddha's teachings so that the beings who listen know that which they must strive for, the lessons they need to be learning in the trials I put them through.

Those beings which listen to me, listen to me and respect me precisely because I like to practise dangerously, putting my heart on the line and exposing myself to great pain. So they know that kind of pain will inevitably follow from following my instructions. But they have seen the results which are possible, so accept the consequences.

PS. I was VERY careful in instructing the Naga! The Naga initially attacked me in order to test me, and that kind of attitude is very dangerous especially in a being which is so strong. So I asked it to watch over a Deva friend, whom the Naga would be able to feel only fondness towards (along with an intelligent fear of consequences for harming a dear friend of mine!), and in feeling that fondness, better understand how to act towards others.

Deva's are so soft and gentle that it's only them who get hurt when they mess it up!

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If I were to invest my heart into the company of humans, I would have no chance at all!

The Devas and heavenly beings are where I recharge my energy, interacting with humans expends it.

Today I had a very nice experience!

The Naga again compelled me to return to the summit and chant and give the five precepts in the light of early dawn.

Walking up, I whined quite inessecantly about my knees because walking up and down these hills is not easy on my knees! And I asked if they could do anything for my knees because while I was happy to chant for them and help teach them how to make merit, I did wish to take care of my body and they were being very demanding on my body!

As I left the forest I told my unseen audience that they may wish to stay there and work on their own minds and hearts rather than brave the suffering of the city before they are ready. I then bowed respectfully and with humility and thanked them for listening to me, and turned and walked out.

But then I was told to stop, and an unseen being rubbed some "deva medicine" into my knees (technically, my sensual body rather than physical body), telling me it would make them heal very fast, and nearly all the pain went away!

Reality is so surprising! It may sound like a strange and extreme thing to go to the summit at 5:30am and chant in bitterly cold winds, it might sound like a cruel thing to do to the body, but as a result my body feels better than it has in a long time!

As for the pushy Naga, I told it to guard my stuff in my room! Whenever I find beings being pushy or needy, I just give them instructions to carry out! Even if they're stupid instructions I'm sure they'll learn something about themselves!

I used to wonder; what Bhikkhu's could possibly learn wandering out in the forest! It turns out, pretty much everything! The unseen beings are so open and honest in their interactions that interacting with them is quite free of the confusion found in interacting with humans. But at heart, the unseen beings and humans are just the same!

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I have no choice!

As I said the Naga COMPELLED me to go and chant and give the precepts. And I couldn't really find fault in being compelled in that way. If I thought I was being compelled to do something evil then I would have fought with every ounce of my strength, but how can one find fault in chanting the verses on loving-kindness to an attentive and respectful audience?

The Deva's who watch over me are fiercely protective of me and I cannot imagine how an evil being could possibly approach me.

I have inante undersatnding how to manage these beings, instructing them on how to be careful with me and very quickly informing them if they are making me uncomfortable because they do not wish any ill and really can't stand the idea of making me uncomfortable, they're just so curious and inspired that they desperately want to learn from me or help me.

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But it is interesting to talk about these thinsg here. Most monks just look at you oddly if you claim to have experienced the Heavenly Beings.

The thing is; I have no choice! Mara attempted to destroy my mind and the Deva's who were friends of a Monk I befriended helped me to endure. And said Monk is an expert chanter and he taught me some chanting and opened my heart to a style of chanting which can be heard by unseen beings.

I didn't know what I was doing, all I knew was that it felt good to put that same energy into my chanting. And so, the unseen beings heard me, they felt me, and they helped me.

From that time I've been a friend of the Deva's, they help and protect me.

Again and again Mara has attempted to destroy my mind and again and again the Deva's have rescued me. I'm not strong enough to fight those evil beings alone! So I have no choice but to befriend the Deva's and other heavenly beings! I NEED allies or else I'll be destroyed! There's no turning back and saying "Oops, I didn't mean to awaken to the truth of the Dhamma, I'll just erase it from my memory and go on wheeling through Samsara as Mara mocks me"

Those Deva's may be shy about standing up to evil, but never could they abandon a friend who is need! That is how fierce their emotional attachments get.

And, ANATTA IS A TRUTH! There is no self. There is no "Evil within us" or anything, either the whole game of samsara takes place entirely inside us with the whole thing being our imagination, or there's nothing inside us and it's all outside in an interplay between good and evil beings. Obviously the truth is that neither can be said to be true!

Regardless I feel that I fight for my life and for goodness itself! Experience this fight and you understand why the Arahants have "Done what needed to be done!" and "Laid down the burden". This fight MUST be fought and it MUST be won! There's no sitting on the fence and letting evil have it's way while goodness cowers in fear!

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Last night, working through the pains of Samsara, I opened the gates of hel_l in my heart and was reborn a Lord of hel_l and the lights all went dim, all brightness gone from the world, I walked the streets of the city and people scattered before me, not a single person could meet my gaze for it radiated hatred and ill-will, some people even jerked their head away from me in shock! The Angry Ghosts and Evil Spirits flocked to me and rejoiced in me as I promised them all the revenge and justice their hearts could desire. I was a Lord of hel_l and I compelled them to obey me! To go forth and bring more angry ghosts and evil spirits to flock to me.

Only one insane homeless person - could meet me gaze! He looked me straight in the eyes as I stood bolt upright as a Lord of hel_l and I don't know what he saw but it certainly surprised him! I have Karma with this homeless man because I couldn't make him meet me gaze when I was imbued with pure loving-kindness and compassion. Which means, at heart, he is an angry ghost who cannot look at such things, but cannot resist the sight of a Lord of hel_l.

I then took my flock to a Summit and told them to go forth out into the world and bring back yet more angry ghosts and evil spirits and even the evil gods themselves and bring them all to the Summit because a Lord of hel_l had been born in the world and it was time to set in motion something awesome.

I assured the flock of evil beings that I would return the next morning, before sunrise and give a discourse which would empower them to go forth and spread misery and despair and destroy the whole world. I COMPELLED them ALL to wait for me on the summit, promising annhilation to any evil being which dared follow me from the summit.

The moment I was clear, I regenerated the goodness in my heart and died a Lord of hel_l, leaving the flock of evil beings to enjoy a nice sunrise and see for themselves what they are, they can't leave because I compelled them to stay! The words and promise of a Lord of hel_l, being full of conceit, can not be trusted! But the evil beings are compelled by fear to obey those words, until they let go of their self-view and move on!

Why did I have to be born a Lord of hel_l? I had no choice! I realized that for the past one thousand lifetimes I'd spiralled down through the hel_l realms, finally clawing my way back up to the Human Realm. I'd been in hel_l for so long, that I had to let hel_l into my heart before I could let go of it. hel_l was a part of my past so I had to let it into my heart. It was quite a trip...

I assure you I am back to my pure Bhikkhu-hearted self. For my body mind and heart were all so well trained in virtue that there is no possible way I could stay a Lord of hel_l, I was just role-playing. Even as a Lord of hel_l, while wielding the psychic powers of a Lord of hel_l, I knew that I was simply leading all these beings into a "trap" in order to free them. Because evil is stupid and easily falls for deceit, the evil beings could suspect no trap!

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Deva's are so UNBEARABLY SENSUAL! Yesterday a very excited Deva, one consumed by sensual desire, touched me. This was was to apply Deva meditation to sunburn which was afflicting me, but it was sensual touching none the less and she greatly delighted in having touched me.

As a result, I was consumed by sensuality myself (blushing and getting giddy), so much so that I ended up acting in a very sensually unrestrained way, which disgusted all the Deva's who decided "He's not that noble after all!" and left me in peace. (I'd REALLY tried to convince them that I was just a man of flesh and blood and not really as noble as they thought, but once those Deva's get excited they don't listen to reason)

Reflecting on this and previous encounters of emotional impact, I recognized what was going on with emotional states being "reflected" or "shared", basically that emotional contact with another being can result in being infected by that beings emotional state, in the same way as smiles and frowns are infectious.

The next day I met the Deva again who was VERY VERY guilty. So I explained to the Deva what had happened, how neither of us could have known any better (such lessons need to be learned the hard way unless you're lucky enough to have a wise one to instruct you in advance), and that the Deva should not fault her kind, caring intentions to cure my sunburn, but instead investigate her conduct and really purify her intentions and motivations before acting, finding a non-disturbing method to achieve her goals, such as asking for permission before acting.

(Actually I'm not sure the Deva is a "She" but I tend to refer to Deva's as she if I'm uncertain)

The Deva, still guilty and I suspect being shunned by the other Deva's for her conduct followed me and I continued to offer advice and try to reassure her, but finally I consented to allowing her to be my "disciple" of sorts, to follow me and watch over me until she felt she had "repented" or learned enough from me.

I had a compassionate Deva watching over me my entire life, but I recently had to let go of that Deva in order to advance. That Deva, before leaving, assured me that eventually I'd find a new Deva companion, and would have to help that Deva learn how to be a "Good friend", a protector.

I know that some would be concerned by the idea of a man and a deva having a close companionship, but I HAVE been in that kind of relationship my entire life (I just wasn't aware of it), and I HAVE vowed to be a good friend to every woman and every Deva, rather than shunning these kinds of beings out of fear of sensual attraction. But being a good friend means of course helping them to overcome sensual attraction rather than encouraging delight in sensuality.

Regarding "Infectious mind states". Previously, I've been far too unrestrained and careless in being open to others. It's a VERY dangerous thing to be open to insane people, for example! Their mental states are so "heavy" that it takes A LOT of mental energy to "Drag them up" and more likely is being "Dragged down" into their insane mental state.

This I believe is why it's encouraged for Monks to look at the ground while walking, because careless eye contact (which results in emotional contact) can easily result in catching negative mind states!

In the concentrated mind of a meditator, mental states become very concentrated and "single pointed", for example the mind becoming completely consumed by condemnation. What I call my "Lord of hel_l" birth is a mood which arises where I condemn every living being (radiating ill-will rather than good-will). The Lord of hel_l state arose in me strongly a second time, and I eventually figured out it arose because (each time) I'd "engaged" with a person who had a very heavy mental state quite thick with ill-will. Maybe the compassionate Buddha could afford to engage such a person but one such as myself, where the defilements are quite easily knocked out but also quite easily regrow, must be more careful, and quickly disengage!

But my experiences in the Lord of hel_l mindstate have been very useful particularly in that I had to devise strategies to CURE myself of the LoH mindstate and PROTECT myself from it arising.

Being a Lord of hel_l while hitchhiking was.... interesting, and VERY motivating!

Dogs would bark at me, or run up to me barking then look into my eyes, look terrified, and run away.

No-one would stop to pick me up! There was NO CHANCE that anyone would stop to pick me up.

With one exception. INSANE people would stop and offer me a lift!

I was so disturbed by the dogs barking at me, and by getting a lift with insane people (ie crazy drivers) that I was VERY motivated to figure out what was going on, how to overcome the Lord of hel_l mental state and how to prevent it arising in the first place. I had NO CHOICE but to do this, because to continue as a Lord of hel_l was far too dangerous and far too unpleasant. As a LoH my life was very much in peril!

To CURE the LoH mindstate when it re-arose most strongly, I had to feel sincere compassion for the Angry Ghosts. As a LoH I made the angry ghosts SO HAPPY, finally someone who understood and supported them! To stop being a LoH, I had to break the hearts of the Angry Ghosts and beg them to stop believing "my" lies and to let go of their need for revenge or punishment, I had to do precisely the opposite of what I wanted to as a LoH (which was to offer revenge and justice for the Angry Ghosts to make them happy). Once I'd done what I needed to do to help the Angry Ghosts the LoH state faded, and immediately a driver pulled over and offered me a lift!

And to prevent the LoH mindstate is really as simple as being careful about who I engage with, and being VERY vigilant of it arising. If through mindfulness I catch it arising then I can counter it with Metta and Compassion. In fact I'm pretty much guaranteed to catch it arising now because it's so awful to "be in" that I'm very vigilant for the signs. If disturbing memories of insane people arise, if I see lights dimming, if animals or people become fearful of me, all of these indicate the Lord of hel_l mindstate is storming my mind and taking it over.

The other preventative measure is to simply maintain a healthy balance of brightness in my mind, rather than carelessly letting it all radiate away. Of course it feels GOOD (powerful) to let loose with a radiant blast of goodness but that leaves me empty, in an emotionally vulnerable state. So I'm learning to keep my mind full of goodness and radiate with a warm steady glow, rather than going through cycles.

Maybe some of this understanding will be useful for others, in generating and maintaining positive mind states conductive to well-being and good meditation.

* * * * *

[camerata]

Despite much of the stuff about nagas and devas being more or less in accord with the Pali Canon and other texts (nagas and devas like these live in the realm of the Four Great Kings, immediately above the human realm), there are things that don't ring true in this account. One is the odd part about the abbot kicking the guy out of the monastery and threatening to call the police. Another is his teaching dhamma to the devas. I've never heard of anyone doing that except the Buddha himself. Also, there's his supposedly incredible attainments in such a short time, even though he doesn't act like someone with high attainments (jacking off surrounded by devas, for example...).

My guess is the 7 weeks' intensive meditation has triggered an episode of hypomania, a mild form of mania. I've seen one other case like this in the past, where a guy with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Canon was challenging all-comers to debates, finally claiming he was a sotapanna and then an arahant. His parents took him to see a doctor and he was diagnosed as having mania.

[Brucenkhamen]

Nice writing style, he should write science fiction novels, but I couldn't cope with reading through it all.

He doesn't strike me as crazy, just seeking attention, but I don't know the context of the forum he's posting on.

I haven't been down to Bodhinyanarama for a couple of months but I can ask if anyone remembers this guy when I do. They don't have intensive retreats there, at least not more than 10 days, it's more a case of taking part in the daily routine and getting time for meditation when you can, so the hypomania theory is unlikely.

I think sometimes they like to reduce the number of lay people staying there at the beginning of the rains retreat if they have more inexperienced ones than they can handle, that could have happened, but I can't imagine Ajahn Tiradhammo threatening to call the police unless this guy got out of control.

I'm not sure why these people think that talking to nagas and devas should impress others, now if he were to have a conversation with santa claus or the tooth fairy then I'd be impressed.

I suppose to give him the benefit of the doubt it could just be a case of wrong view, personifying his experience on the path with images of devas and nagas in the same way born again christians personify their experience by saying God told me this or that etc.

[camerata]

Nice writing style, he should write science fiction novels, but I couldn't cope with reading through it all.

The "Lord of he11" stuff near the end is best. He says when he was in LoH mode, he was so scary that only insane people would give him a lift. But how many insane people are driving around the roads of NZ?

They don't have intensive retreats there, at least not more than 10 days, it's more a case of taking part in the daily routine and getting time for meditation when you can, so the hypomania theory is unlikely.

I thought a lot of meditation in a short time in an unfamiliar environment might act as a trigger, but AFAIK, hypomania doesn't need a specific trigger. It could just be an absorbing interest in something spiritual. Presumably there's an underlying cause for hypomania, though, and religious visions are just one of the ways it manifests. The guy seems to be alone and doesn't mention his family.

[Brucenkhamen]

Nice writing style, he should write science fiction novels, but I couldn't cope with reading through it all.

The "Lord of he11" stuff near the end is best. He says when he was in LoH mode, he was so scary that only insane people would give him a lift. But how many insane people are driving around the roads of NZ?

Nowhere near as many as in Thailand, but enough to cause problems to other motorists.

I thought a lot of meditation in a short time in an unfamiliar environment might act as a trigger, but AFAIK, hypomania doesn't need a specific trigger. It could just be an absorbing interest in something spiritual. Presumably there's an underlying cause for hypomania, though, and religious visions are just one of the ways it manifests. The guy seems to be alone and doesn't mention his family.

He would have been lucky to get 4 or 5 hours a day formal practice, other people can do 10-14 hours for months on end without problems, but I suppose everybody is different.

I found his posts on BSWA, looking at his earlier posts before he went there many seem just as gushy and emotive as those after, I guess its just the way he sees the world and expresses himself.

You get all sorts on these Buddhist forums. Normally I'd say as Buddhists we should be accepting and understanding of differences but I remember a few years ago a similar guy on a forum I was on gathered quite a following of followers on the internet.

[rockyysdt]

Despite much of the stuff about nagas and devas being more or less in accord with the Pali Canon and other texts (nagas and devas like these live in the realm of the Four Great Kings, immediately above the human realm), there are things that don't ring true in this account. One is the odd part about the abbot kicking the guy out of the monastery and threatening to call the police. Another is his teaching dhamma to the devas. I've never heard of anyone doing that except the Buddha himself. Also, there's his supposedly incredible attainments in such a short time, even though he doesn't act like someone with high attainments (jacking off surrounded by devas, for example...).

My guess is the 7 weeks' intensive meditation has triggered an episode of hypomania, a mild form of mania. I've seen one other case like this in the past, where a guy with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Canon was challenging all-comers to debates, finally claiming he was a sotapanna and then an arahant. His parents took him to see a doctor and he was diagnosed as having mania.

Firstly I admire this mans resolve to travel the path towards enlightenment.

What I've read about demonic and heavenly mind states is that it's important to understand that these are dead ends along ones path to the summit.

One should observe without attachment and eventually these states will pass.

The poster indicated that he was compelled to follow the Naga's orders or his mind would be destroyed.

This indicates fear and attachment and being controlled.

These stages may need the guidance of a competent teacher.

Without guidance the poster could end up spending the remainder of his life trapped in these realms.

Not wanting to discount your feelings, these days, unless I have concrete evidence, I tend to accept peoples stories with an open mind.

In the past, I've been on the receiving end of not being believed when sharing some personal experiences and know how it can feel.

Edited September 29, 2008 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Nice writing style, he should write science fiction novels, but I couldn't cope with reading through it all.

I'm not sure why these people think that talking to nagas and devas should impress others, now if he were to have a conversation with santa claus or the tooth fairy then I'd be impressed.

I suppose to give him the benefit of the doubt it could just be a case of wrong view, personifying his experience on the path with images of devas and nagas in the same way born again christians personify their experience by saying God told me this or that etc.

Bruce.

It's quite possible it's just a story but without first hand experience, isn't it better to keep an open mind on his experiences?

I've read of meditators being trapped in demonic and heavenly mind states before.

I have heard of them as being stages many may encounter on their journey, and these should be navigated without attachment as they can stop your progress.

Don't you think?

Edited September 29, 2008 by rockyysdt

[sabaijai]

I think he needs therapy, sooner than later. And possibly a prescription for lithium, which in bipolars will minimise or eliminate 'LoH mode'. Untreated could progress to borderline.

[Brucenkhamen]

It's quite possible it's just a story but without first hand experience, isn't it better to keep an open mind on his experiences?

I've read of meditators being trapped in demonic and heavenly mind states before.

I have heard of them as being stages many may encounter on their journey, and these should be navigated without attachment as they can stop your progress.

Don't you think?

Keep an open mind but not so open your brains fall out.

I think we've all been looking at rational explanations in terms of his mind state have we not?

[rockyysdt]

Keep an open mind but not so open your brains fall out.

I think we've all been looking at rational explanations in terms of his mind state have we not?

I think it may also be possible that he's not mad but trapped in altered states due to the intensity of his practice.

David A Cooper describes such states in detail in his book The Art of Meditation capturing similarities with the posters experience.

He explains that the trick is to let them come and go by simply observing them them but not to become attached.

He further explains that they are normal experiences for all people.

He adds that these stages help us grow and in many ways act as an internal guidance system in our journey to enlightenment.

It has been quoted: It is not because evil thoughts come to us that we are condemned, but only because we make use of the evil thoughts. It can happen that from these thoughts we suffer shipwreck, but it can also happen that because of them we may be crowned.

The posters problem is that he's become very much attached and in danger of not progressing beyond this level and even affecting his sanity.

He is strongly attached to his ego as camerata indicated.

If he can overcome this stage he will make significant progress on his journey.

[camerata]

I think it may also be possible that he's not mad but trapped in altered states due to the intensity of his practice.

David A Cooper describes such states in detail in his book The Art of Meditation capturing similarities with the posters experience.

He explains that the trick is to let them come and go by simply observing them them but not to become attached.

He further explains that they are normal experiences for all people.

But is the author talking about experiences during meditation or outside meditation? It seems normal to experience visions during meditation but I don't think it's normal to experience them in everyday life. This guy seems to have constructed a whole fantasy world based partly on the supranatural elements of the Pali Canon - a cosmic psychodrama with himself at the centre adored and obeyed by inhabitants of other realms - and he's lost his ability to discern reality.

It's no wonder when you read about his unorthodox meditation, which is just letting go of everything - letting the mind do what it wants, letting the body do what it wants, and relying on the "heart" to do the right thing. The problem with that is there is no discipline. The whole idea is to discipline the mind. Ajahn Brahm has a good story about when he couldn't get any results from his meditation - his mind was going off in all directions. So he made a deal with his mind that if it would behave he would give it one hour at the end of each session to do what it liked. So of course his mind didn't behave, hour after hour. Then when he gave it the one hour of freedom as promised, suddenly his mind became one-pointed and disciplined. The real point of this is that the discipline works, but the result comes when you let go. I think this guy has misunderstood (he's an admirer of Aj Brahm) and thinks the trick is to let go all the time.

The problem is this guy's mind has a weird rationalization for everything now, so he's not going to listen to anyone who says he's delusional.

[rockyysdt]

But is the author talking about experiences during meditation or outside meditation? It seems normal to experience visions during meditation but I don't think it's normal to experience them in everyday life. This guy seems to have constructed a whole fantasy world based partly on the supranatural elements of the Pali Canon - a cosmic psychodrama with himself at the centre adored and obeyed by inhabitants of other realms - and he's lost his ability to discern reality.

It's no wonder when you read about his unorthodox meditation, which is just letting go of everything - letting the mind do what it wants, letting the body do what it wants, and relying on the "heart" to do the right thing. The problem with that is there is no discipline. The whole idea is to discipline the mind. Ajahn Brahm has a good story about when he couldn't get any results from his meditation - his mind was going off in all directions. So he made a deal with his mind that if it would behave he would give it one hour at the end of each session to do what it liked. So of course his mind didn't behave, hour after hour. Then when he gave it the one hour of freedom as promised, suddenly his mind became one-pointed and disciplined. The real point of this is that the discipline works, but the result comes when you let go. I think this guy has misunderstood (he's an admirer of Aj Brahm) and thinks the trick is to let go all the time.

The problem is this guy's mind has a weird rationalization for everything now, so he's not going to listen to anyone who says he's delusional.

I thought the very same thing. That these states maybe experienced during meditation but the poster continues with them outside of meditation.

But then I thought that he, unlike us, is a full time practioner. Long sessions of meditation over a prolonged period can place one in a continuous altered state.

You're correct that his methods are unorthodox, but that's because he's been left to practice unguided.

He could end up being lost forever, or worse, go insane.

He should observe without attachment.

I'm open about his story and do understand he may be mentally ill.

One thing I appreciate is his frank story of his journey and experiences.

You won't hear many disciplined travelors speak of of theirs as correct practice involves diminishing the ego.

As he is very much attached to his ego, he's been able to share.

Edited September 30, 2008 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

Here's the guy's answer when I suggested his special powers might be imaginary and he might want to see a doctor. Apparently this stuff has got into his imagination via Ajahn Man's biography:

"I wish to clarify things a little since I don't think I was understood clearly.

Most beings labor under the delusion that their emotional world is private, I do not labor under that delusion, recognizing that emotional state is broadcast and recieved clearly and automatically via the senses (including mind sense), body language is a good clear example.

That is the extent of my "special" powers. Everyone can and does do this, share other beings emotional states, they just don't know they are doing it and are unable to understand how their emotional state is being influenced nor how they influence the emotional state of others.

I am NOT able to send out my citta to communicate with devas or anything of that sort and even if I could so so, I wouldn't do so. I don't send out my body to meet other humans, I just let other humans come to me if they so wish. And my only motivation ever when teaching others, is to get rid of them, I just have to do so with kindness, gentleness and patience and I find the best way to do so is to teach everything I know and be honest about that - I don't know much. Then they leave me alone.

Regarding communicating with Devas, in short; the Deva's come to ME, they use THEIR psychic powers to communicate with me, who knows why they do that but I think it's a combination of sympathy for me and admiration for my kindness towards others and courage in confroting my fears.

For those who have read the biography/spiritual teachings of Archan Mun, my experience parallels that of certain young monks, without spiritual attainment, who are visited by Deva's because the Deva wishes to assist in the Monk's spiritual practise, and who knows why the Deva wants to do that.

For example one Monk was plauged by conceit and arrogance so was visited by a Deva in the form of a giant Tiger! And the tiger stuck around until he overcame his fear, then left him.

I am someone who was plauged by lonliness and fear of women and fear of the sensual pleasures (I always ruthlessly pursued self-mortification) and I got visited by a Deva in the form of a human woman, and she stuck around until I overcame my fear, then left me.

If I hadn't had a Deva help me overcome my issues surrounding sensual pleasure, who knows how long I may have stumbled around seeking pain and suffering, or cautiously experimenting with sensual pleasures.

Thanks to experiencing a great deal of mental sensual pleasure, and seeing there's nothing there even at very refined levels, I now, with all my heart, pursue the middle way.

The unseen beings do not bother me when my mind is balanced, they leave me to practise in solitude."

[phloiwang]

The guy's account of meeting deva and naga was often mentioned by Thai ariya monks as well. AFAIK, beside Luangpu Man, Luangpu Kamkaning, Luangpu Nainkam and Luangpu Kao, for example, encountered these beings, and even more of other beings and realms, and taught dhamma to them. After listening to dhamma, these beings would prolong their lives in their realms longer, that's the reason why they like to communicate with monks with pure silas.

The difference between him and Thai monks is that Thai monks were unlikely to tell others (strangers, internet readers, for example) but Thai readers have a chance to know their accounts when reading books, perhaps written by one of the monk's disciple. It is (almost) impossible for monks to tell (show off) these incredible stories. The account should be called patjattang (personal, individual witness) , which often results in argument, insult or quarrel. People who argue, insult and quarrel will cause their own kamma unintentionally.

[Brucenkhamen]

The difference between him and Thai monks is that Thai monks were unlikely to tell others (strangers, internet readers, for example) but Thai readers have a chance to know their accounts when reading books, perhaps written by one of the monk's disciple. It is (almost) impossible for monks to tell (show off) these incredible stories. The account should be called patjattang (personal, individual witness) , which often results in argument, insult or quarrel. People who argue, insult and quarrel will cause their own kamma unintentionally.

A good point. Monks have rules to prevent them from mouthing off about these kinds of experiences, whether they may be real or imagined.

It just doesn't sit right they way this guy is talking when a Monk wouldn't be allowed to, even in the unlikely event that it was real as he describes it. If he feels he needs help he should go and talk to someone he trusts, otherwise I don't think the BSWA should be providing a platform for him.

[camerata]

It just doesn't sit right they way this guy is talking when a Monk wouldn't be allowed to, even in the unlikely event that it was real as he describes it. If he feels he needs help he should go and talk to someone he trusts, otherwise I don't think the BSWA should be providing a platform for him.

The BSWA mods are very hands-off. They'll give practically anyone a platform. Anyway, the latest is this guy was given a lift by a motorist one day and apparently the motorist's body had been taken over by an arahant in order to instruct him (but he can't remember most of the insights he was given). This is something else that doesn't occur in the Pali Canon, although it's something similar to the arahant appearing in a "divine body" that we read in Phloiwang's miracle story.

[khaowong1]

Despite much of the stuff about nagas and devas being more or less in accord with the Pali Canon and other texts (nagas and devas like these live in the realm of the Four Great Kings, immediately above the human realm), there are things that don't ring true in this account. One is the odd part about the abbot kicking the guy out of the monastery and threatening to call the police. Another is his teaching dhamma to the devas. I've never heard of anyone doing that except the Buddha himself. Also, there's his supposedly incredible attainments in such a short time, even though he doesn't act like someone with high attainments (jacking off surrounded by devas, for example...).

My guess is the 7 weeks' intensive meditation has triggered an episode of hypomania, a mild form of mania. I've seen one other case like this in the past, where a guy with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Canon was challenging all-comers to debates, finally claiming he was a sotapanna and then an arahant. His parents took him to see a doctor and he was diagnosed as having mania.

I would be interested to find out what happened to this guy. He appears to need some mental help. Have you heard about him since?

[camerata]

He stopped posting his personal narrative since several people pointed out that the idea of an arahant taking over someone else's body is not supported in the Pali Canon. But he still posts some good stuff and generally sounds pretty rational.