Police Fire Tear Gas At Protesters In Front Of Parliament

[cmsally]

Which 'elite' is that cmsally?

The elite as in the top levels of bureaucracy and military. Not exactly concrete as they don't all necessarily get along, and are of course tied in with business interests and therefore politics.

However when you say the elites are not divided I am not sure that I agree, as there are a fair amount that will swing with the winning party. To a certain extent elites will follow the pattern of political party members when it comes to switching allegiances ie quite often.

I think it would be a big mistake to suggest there is this fictional cohesive elite body that is capable of governing the country with neither faction nor turmoil.

So that means Thaksin and the MP's from the PPP and the families that control entire communities in Isaan are NOT elite?

Anyone that thinks that both sides are not 'elite' are just deluding themselves imho. Then again it is the same here as it is in most countries.

Yes you are quite correct , they are both elites. It is though, the first time that a "nouveau riches" elite (for want of a better description) has found such a popular base. Therefore it is a plausible threat to the established BKK elite (old elite - for want of a better description); such a threat that it should be got rid of at all costs.

Then of course through marriage, business alliance etc. the two do to a certain extent merge.

That is why it is dangerous to think that handing over power on a plate to the so called elite would be a safe option.

You end up with one of a few outcomes. A very volatile power vacuum, where alliances will be traded and the rules not clear at all. Or some sort of stagnation as "power" is held but no one is quite sure what to do with it. Sort of "pass the buck to the other guy but keep my position in doing so". In effect the same kind of stagnation the last coup brought.

I am sure there could be other possibilities too.

I am confused again .... Thaksin's family is not Nouveau Riche, nor are the others in that clique ... Don't be confused ny Thaksin's meteoric acquisition of wealth during his time in office. His family has always had REAL money. It isn't so much about regional stuff would be correct though. Thakisn is not from the countryside and has never been poor. His lieutenants also fall into that category. Not much different than the big 2 political parties where I am from (though right now we are discussing the 'elites' and not political parties) The overwhelming majority of control rests in old families selling influence in one way or another.

I think you will find Thaksin's family are very much "new elite" but it his wife's family who you could say were more established.

[jdinasia]

Which 'elite' is that cmsally?

The elite as in the top levels of bureaucracy and military. Not exactly concrete as they don't all necessarily get along, and are of course tied in with business interests and therefore politics.

However when you say the elites are not divided I am not sure that I agree, as there are a fair amount that will swing with the winning party. To a certain extent elites will follow the pattern of political party members when it comes to switching allegiances ie quite often.

I think it would be a big mistake to suggest there is this fictional cohesive elite body that is capable of governing the country with neither faction nor turmoil.

So that means Thaksin and the MP's from the PPP and the families that control entire communities in Isaan are NOT elite?

Anyone that thinks that both sides are not 'elite' are just deluding themselves imho. Then again it is the same here as it is in most countries.

Yes you are quite correct , they are both elites. It is though, the first time that a "nouveau riches" elite (for want of a better description) has found such a popular base. Therefore it is a plausible threat to the established BKK elite (old elite - for want of a better description); such a threat that it should be got rid of at all costs.

Then of course through marriage, business alliance etc. the two do to a certain extent merge.

That is why it is dangerous to think that handing over power on a plate to the so called elite would be a safe option.

You end up with one of a few outcomes. A very volatile power vacuum, where alliances will be traded and the rules not clear at all. Or some sort of stagnation as "power" is held but no one is quite sure what to do with it. Sort of "pass the buck to the other guy but keep my position in doing so". In effect the same kind of stagnation the last coup brought.

I am sure there could be other possibilities too.

I am confused again .... Thaksin's family is not Nouveau Riche, nor are the others in that clique ... Don't be confused ny Thaksin's meteoric acquisition of wealth during his time in office. His family has always had REAL money. It isn't so much about regional stuff would be correct though. Thakisn is not from the countryside and has never been poor. His lieutenants also fall into that category. Not much different than the big 2 political parties where I am from (though right now we are discussing the 'elites' and not political parties) The overwhelming majority of control rests in old families selling influence in one way or another.

I think you will find Thaksin's family are very much "new elite" but it his wife's family who you could say were more established.

Hmm one of his family's businesses was founded in 1911 ... and I doubt his wife's family would have allowed her to marry below her station

[Samuian]

I think the concept of an Eastern mind as some sort of amorphous consensus that hangs over this part of the world is a fallacy.

Part of the reason that governance of this part of the world will become steadily more difficult is that the "Eastern mind" - it comes in many shapes and outlooks- is very quick to grasp the benefits of other systems and communities throughout the world. Vast numbers have been educated, worked, visited other parts of the world and have access to English media etc.

Hence all will not fit back into the bottle neatly.

Asians are some of the quickest people to learn by comparison and some of the most persevering when it comes to improving their situation in life.

replace "learn" with COPY and we're talking!

This is why I can't see that the "asian communities" will lead the 21st century....only dirt cheap (copied) products...and below world standard slave salaries as working hours are counted in days!

1.) Who are they exactly

2.) what is chinas economic motor?

3.) which of the other "asian communities", (except india, taiwan, s.korea) is "performing well" right now?

4.) for long the US has been warning china about the strength of it's currency, wait and see....

[h90]

I think the concept of an Eastern mind as some sort of amorphous consensus that hangs over this part of the world is a fallacy.

Part of the reason that governance of this part of the world will become steadily more difficult is that the "Eastern mind" - it comes in many shapes and outlooks- is very quick to grasp the benefits of other systems and communities throughout the world. Vast numbers have been educated, worked, visited other parts of the world and have access to English media etc.

Hence all will not fit back into the bottle neatly.

Asians are some of the quickest people to learn by comparison and some of the most persevering when it comes to improving their situation in life.

replace "learn" with COPY and we're talking!

This is why I can't see that the "asian communities" will lead the 21st century....only dirt cheap (copied) products...and below world standard slave salaries as working hours are counted in days!

1.) Who are they exactly

2.) what is chinas economic motor?

3.) which of the other "asian communities", (except india, taiwan, s.korea) is "performing well" right now?

4.) for long the US has been warning china about the strength of it's currency, wait and see....

Well Japan and Korea are developing products. That copy argument was many years ago used about the Japanese and where are they now?

[hammered]

Does anyone else get that sinking feeling that in the future when there is reporting about Thailand, it will be ...

" and this is xxx reporting on the situation in BKK from nearby here in Rangoon."

People in control really do need to consider the previous points mentioned about a failing economy because it surely will happen and it will affect those living on the edge considerably.

This model may work for an agrarian, illiterate society but somehow I doubt all will fit back into the feudal bottle.

You will still have the Catch 22 situation where one side will claim it as a victory and then you will be back to square one.

Slightly off the point but relevant is that this year in Chiang Mai as its cold (well by Thai standards) you see the usual influx of mostly BKK tourists. This year is the first year that I have heard local people say BKK people having created such a political mess should stay at home and live in it. Somehow I think a grab for power by the BKK elite will not go down well in some regions of Thailand.

You get similar comments form different bits of the country. Sometimes they blame Bnagkok sometimes they blame Thaksin, it depends where you are. The regional divide is potentially a far bigger problem than the class one and one that wont go away. If Thaksin loses bits of the country wont be happy if he wins bits of ther country wont be happy. A compromise is the best hope but ......

The regional division is far overestimated. North East may love Thaksin, but the not paid demonstrations of the Thaksin supporters were always just 50-100 people. So not too much love. And how many others they loved before (including Chavalit)?? When the next corrupt one comes in 2 years and hand out loans and cash they will love him again.

If you go into farming areas of the North of Thailand (Isaan I dont know as well) you will find things like the word Abhisit almost spat when spoken and people talk fondly of Thaksin. In Chonburi where I live most of the time you will find Thaksin is a dirty word and you can openly ridicule the guy in public. A similar thing in the Northern rural areas would not be advisable. A lot of the haterd has been whipped up by the village headmen and spinmeisters and a lot is based on misinformation, disinformation and lies but the fact is it still exisits and has to be dealt with. Whoever comes out on top in the pwoer struggle is going to have a lot of problems with this which is why either a negotiated settlement or a solution that is seen to come form the middle is the better way out than seeing a win for either side at least in the short term

[cmsally]

Does anyone else get that sinking feeling that in the future when there is reporting about Thailand, it will be ...

" and this is xxx reporting on the situation in BKK from nearby here in Rangoon."

People in control really do need to consider the previous points mentioned about a failing economy because it surely will happen and it will affect those living on the edge considerably.

This model may work for an agrarian, illiterate society but somehow I doubt all will fit back into the feudal bottle.

You will still have the Catch 22 situation where one side will claim it as a victory and then you will be back to square one.

Slightly off the point but relevant is that this year in Chiang Mai as its cold (well by Thai standards) you see the usual influx of mostly BKK tourists. This year is the first year that I have heard local people say BKK people having created such a political mess should stay at home and live in it. Somehow I think a grab for power by the BKK elite will not go down well in some regions of Thailand.

You get similar comments form different bits of the country. Sometimes they blame Bnagkok sometimes they blame Thaksin, it depends where you are. The regional divide is potentially a far bigger problem than the class one and one that wont go away. If Thaksin loses bits of the country wont be happy if he wins bits of ther country wont be happy. A compromise is the best hope but ......

The regional division is far overestimated. North East may love Thaksin, but the not paid demonstrations of the Thaksin supporters were always just 50-100 people. So not too much love. And how many others they loved before (including Chavalit)?? When the next corrupt one comes in 2 years and hand out loans and cash they will love him again.

If you go into farming areas of the North of Thailand (Isaan I dont know as well) you will find things like the word Abhisit almost spat when spoken and people talk fondly of Thaksin. In Chonburi where I live most of the time you will find Thaksin is a dirty word and you can openly ridicule the guy in public. A similar thing in the Northern rural areas would not be advisable. A lot of the haterd has been whipped up by the village headmen and spinmeisters and a lot is based on misinformation, disinformation and lies but the fact is it still exisits and has to be dealt with. Whoever comes out on top in the pwoer struggle is going to have a lot of problems with this which is why either a negotiated settlement or a solution that is seen to come form the middle is the better way out than seeing a win for either side at least in the short term

Very true, the only problem being there doesn't seem to be a middle remaining. This has become so protracted, and as time goes on extremism becomes more the norm. Those on middle ground will often find themselves being labelled as the other side by the fact that they don't agree with the first side that is mentioned and comes into the conversation.

[hammered]

Ive got a feeling that Shawn is fishing with htis one. Anyway he'll either look like a prophet of genius or it will be one of his more embarrassing pieces that is quietly forgotten. It does raise an interesting question thouhg of who does run the country if the government parties are disolved and before they can join a new party.

Fishing......? could be. But those rumours could have a basis of truth also and would suit the PAD very much.

WHO, in the end will rule the country is indeed an interesting question but an even more interesting question is...for how long ?

Personally, I fear the (consequences of) economical downturn even more than the present unrest.

LaoPo

Well it does make sonse on one level.

~If the courts do see this erasing the existing Exectuive Power Structure

who DOES run things in the interim? A really good question.

At least someone behind the scenes has given some thought to a possible solution.

You may not LIKE it's method, but it's better than nothing, NOT running everything.

Any solutions yourself?

Who should take the helm if the main coalition paties are ALL found dissolved,

and elections take 2 months to get going?

The only functioning entities will be:

Judiciary committee, Senate committee, House committee, Privy Council.

PPP has already the new backup party list, the others most probably also.

just a few people get banned so there is still a relative of Thaksin somewhere who is not yet banned from politic.

so if PPP plays it shameless there is not much impact 20-30 MPS maybe

Have a read of Crispins new piece on A-Times. It seems there is a very real question of who becomes the interim government if the coalition parties are disolved. Apparently the constitution isnt clear on this. That will leave no government, no acting government and the whole process of changing party has to be gone through. The arguement goes that if the constitution doesnt state who the government are then the courts may need to interpret this point and may appoint an acting government with full powers. A few exective orders later and you could easily have new politcs.

Exactly what the constitution says on this needs to be checked but I doubt Crispin has just made it up although I have my doubts that this route would be pursued so vigorously. Apparently PPP also have produced a document to distribute stating that the courts are trying to undermine democracy in league with various other bogeymen. This could be about to get very nasty

[hammered]

Does anyone else get that sinking feeling that in the future when there is reporting about Thailand, it will be ...

" and this is xxx reporting on the situation in BKK from nearby here in Rangoon."

People in control really do need to consider the previous points mentioned about a failing economy because it surely will happen and it will affect those living on the edge considerably.

This model may work for an agrarian, illiterate society but somehow I doubt all will fit back into the feudal bottle.

You will still have the Catch 22 situation where one side will claim it as a victory and then you will be back to square one.

Slightly off the point but relevant is that this year in Chiang Mai as its cold (well by Thai standards) you see the usual influx of mostly BKK tourists. This year is the first year that I have heard local people say BKK people having created such a political mess should stay at home and live in it. Somehow I think a grab for power by the BKK elite will not go down well in some regions of Thailand.

You get similar comments form different bits of the country. Sometimes they blame Bnagkok sometimes they blame Thaksin, it depends where you are. The regional divide is potentially a far bigger problem than the class one and one that wont go away. If Thaksin loses bits of the country wont be happy if he wins bits of ther country wont be happy. A compromise is the best hope but ......

The regional division is far overestimated. North East may love Thaksin, but the not paid demonstrations of the Thaksin supporters were always just 50-100 people. So not too much love. And how many others they loved before (including Chavalit)?? When the next corrupt one comes in 2 years and hand out loans and cash they will love him again.

If you go into farming areas of the North of Thailand (Isaan I dont know as well) you will find things like the word Abhisit almost spat when spoken and people talk fondly of Thaksin. In Chonburi where I live most of the time you will find Thaksin is a dirty word and you can openly ridicule the guy in public. A similar thing in the Northern rural areas would not be advisable. A lot of the haterd has been whipped up by the village headmen and spinmeisters and a lot is based on misinformation, disinformation and lies but the fact is it still exisits and has to be dealt with. Whoever comes out on top in the pwoer struggle is going to have a lot of problems with this which is why either a negotiated settlement or a solution that is seen to come form the middle is the better way out than seeing a win for either side at least in the short term

Very true, the only problem being there doesn't seem to be a middle remaining. This has become so protracted, and as time goes on extremism becomes more the norm. Those on middle ground will often find themselves being labelled as the other side by the fact that they don't agree with the first side that is mentioned and comes into the conversation.

Exactly true but both the PPP parlaimentarians and the bureacracy seem to be trying to rush to the middle right now. The PPP try to use the counterbalance of the UDD which is of course nothing to do with the government as a way to show offical PPP is centrist and not on the wings. The bureacracy seem to be launching all kinds of white ideas and distancing from the PAD. I think both sides recognise that a victory can only come if is seen as being from th middle and both sides are quite willing to sacrifice their wings. My feeling is that the bureacracy are goin to try something which will involve PPP and PAD suffering but Im not sure exactly what, but as Thaksin has made his war like moves it cant be long before they make theirs.

[animatic]

Ive got a feeling that Shawn is fishing with htis one. Anyway he'll either look like a prophet of genius or it will be one of his more embarrassing pieces that is quietly forgotten. It does raise an interesting question thouhg of who does run the country if the government parties are disolved and before they can join a new party.

Fishing......? could be. But those rumours could have a basis of truth also and would suit the PAD very much.

WHO, in the end will rule the country is indeed an interesting question but an even more interesting question is...for how long ?

Personally, I fear the (consequences of) economical downturn even more than the present unrest.

LaoPo

Well it does make sonse on one level.

~If the courts do see this erasing the existing Executive Power Structure

who DOES run things in the interim? A really good question.

At least someone behind the scenes has given some thought to a possible solution.

You may not LIKE it's method, but it's better than nothing, NOT running everything.

Any solutions yourself?

Who should take the helm if the main coalition paties are ALL found dissolved,

and elections take 2 months to get going?

The only functioning entities will be:

Judiciary committee, Senate committee, House committee, Privy Council.

Any solution myself ?....

Do you think that any of us Farang would possibly have a solution ?....

You, being an American living on Samui, claim to know the only functioning entities....?..really ?

Sir, I have been coming and going, working, business and holidays to Thailand and many other Far Eastern countries for so many years that I forgot how long (joking of course) but don't ever think that Farang will even come close to possible solutions because we are not able to think like a Thai...a Chinese....a Japanese...a Korean. We can try but we will never think, act and come to solutions the way they do.

Forget it

We (farang) can discuss, disagree and fight with words on a forum like TV about political solutions in Thailand but we are NEVER able to come up with the proper solutions !

I was and still am surprised over and over again that Farang always know better than the man in the Far East himself.

Many Farang have no idea about the fast growing self awareness of the Easterner in general.....his growing self confidence.

It's time for us Farang to be a bit more modest and to listen a bit more to the Easterner; he could teach us a thing or two

The 21st century belongs to the East, not the West (anymore).

LaoPo

Ah, so what other ones are publicly KNOWN to exist?

Who said I KNEW BETTER than the 'asian man'; only you did.

You also veer pretty close to using 'American', as an insult...

If some hypothetical star chamber exists,

why would I include that as any kind of publicly included body to chose from?

I was just looking at it logically. But you seem to think that is a foolish persuit.

And worthy of ridicule obviously...

As far as a interim government is concerned the only current choices

come from those publicly existing bodies.

If the executive is annulled who are the public choices? :

The judiciary has put forth a committee idea, they are not being annulled, so will exist.

Two legislative bodies.

The House is WAY to big to do it without cutting down members. ie a cabinet / committee.

If the parties ARE dissolved the HOUSE will be smaller, but still not small enough,

and Democrats will be the biggest party. Since the others will cease to exist.

Whether that means ALL their MP's lose their jobs instantly is unclear.

The NEW Puea party won't exist in the house at all.

Senate the other proper body is also too big,

Logically they could choose a committee. They won't be dissolved.

Privy council IS a committee already.

Much of the country would back that because of unity around HRM,

for the short time needed for new elections.

Everything else is back room shenanigans. Dark lords and conspiracy theories.

There was no reason to list any of it.

But ridicule away, you seem to LIKE that motus operandi.

Edited November 22, 2008 by animatic

[animatic]

Ive got a feeling that Shawn is fishing with htis one. Anyway he'll either look like a prophet of genius or it will be one of his more embarrassing pieces that is quietly forgotten. It does raise an interesting question thouhg of who does run the country if the government parties are disolved and before they can join a new party.

Fishing......? could be. But those rumours could have a basis of truth also and would suit the PAD very much.

WHO, in the end will rule the country is indeed an interesting question but an even more interesting question is...for how long ?

Personally, I fear the (consequences of) economical downturn even more than the present unrest.

LaoPo

Well it does make sonse on one level.

~If the courts do see this erasing the existing Exectuive Power Structure

who DOES run things in the interim? A really good question.

At least someone behind the scenes has given some thought to a possible solution.

You may not LIKE it's method, but it's better than nothing, NOT running everything.

Any solutions yourself?

Who should take the helm if the main coalition paties are ALL found dissolved,

and elections take 2 months to get going?

The only functioning entities will be:

Judiciary committee, Senate committee, House committee, Privy Council.

PPP has already the new backup party list, the others most probably also.

just a few people get banned so there is still a relative of Thaksin somewhere who is not yet banned from politic.

so if PPP plays it shameless there is not much impact 20-30 MPS maybe

H90 this is about the time period BETWEEN disolution of the offending parties

and the new election where the NEW TRT clone party will then run.

That is a large gray area for sure.

Yes 3-4 elites exist, but the main fight is between

Thaksin's nouveau riche rapacious bunch, and the older patrician financial families,

and assorted fiefdoms like army and police with their divisions of the spoils,

backing segments of the 1st too.

The little people are just the greek chorus of playing pieces.

Echoing what they are shown and commenting from their perspective.

For sure an interim appointed body will be under pressure to limit the new Puea parties prospects,

and methods of population control this time around, they have learned a harsh lesson.

[Los78]

Does anyone else get that sinking feeling that in the future when there is reporting about Thailand, it will be ...

" and this is xxx reporting on the situation in BKK from nearby here in Rangoon."

People in control really do need to consider the previous points mentioned about a failing economy because it surely will happen and it will affect those living on the edge considerably.

This model may work for an agrarian, illiterate society but somehow I doubt all will fit back into the feudal bottle.

You will still have the Catch 22 situation where one side will claim it as a victory and then you will be back to square one.

Slightly off the point but relevant is that this year in Chiang Mai as its cold (well by Thai standards) you see the usual influx of mostly BKK tourists. This year is the first year that I have heard local people say BKK people having created such a political mess should stay at home and live in it. Somehow I think a grab for power by the BKK elite will not go down well in some regions of Thailand.

You get similar comments form different bits of the country. Sometimes they blame Bnagkok sometimes they blame Thaksin, it depends where you are. The regional divide is potentially a far bigger problem than the class one and one that wont go away. If Thaksin loses bits of the country wont be happy if he wins bits of ther country wont be happy. A compromise is the best hope but ......

The regional division is far overestimated. North East may love Thaksin, but the not paid demonstrations of the Thaksin supporters were always just 50-100 people. So not too much love. And how many others they loved before (including Chavalit)?? When the next corrupt one comes in 2 years and hand out loans and cash they will love him again.

A man of wisdom to know such statistics about the political beliefs of the North East... hmm how do you know these facts may I ask? I always thought you are Peace loving PAD supporter. On another note I figure that Sondhi and his team are busy wiring money to their members in the southern provinces to come to Bangkok for some fun at parliament tomorrow. A day of fun in Krung Thep come one, come all and dont forget to bring your baby clap toys.

[h90]

Does anyone else get that sinking feeling that in the future when there is reporting about Thailand, it will be ...

" and this is xxx reporting on the situation in BKK from nearby here in Rangoon."

People in control really do need to consider the previous points mentioned about a failing economy because it surely will happen and it will affect those living on the edge considerably.

This model may work for an agrarian, illiterate society but somehow I doubt all will fit back into the feudal bottle.

You will still have the Catch 22 situation where one side will claim it as a victory and then you will be back to square one.

Slightly off the point but relevant is that this year in Chiang Mai as its cold (well by Thai standards) you see the usual influx of mostly BKK tourists. This year is the first year that I have heard local people say BKK people having created such a political mess should stay at home and live in it. Somehow I think a grab for power by the BKK elite will not go down well in some regions of Thailand.

You get similar comments form different bits of the country. Sometimes they blame Bnagkok sometimes they blame Thaksin, it depends where you are. The regional divide is potentially a far bigger problem than the class one and one that wont go away. If Thaksin loses bits of the country wont be happy if he wins bits of ther country wont be happy. A compromise is the best hope but ......

The regional division is far overestimated. North East may love Thaksin, but the not paid demonstrations of the Thaksin supporters were always just 50-100 people. So not too much love. And how many others they loved before (including Chavalit)?? When the next corrupt one comes in 2 years and hand out loans and cash they will love him again.

If you go into farming areas of the North of Thailand (Isaan I dont know as well) you will find things like the word Abhisit almost spat when spoken and people talk fondly of Thaksin. In Chonburi where I live most of the time you will find Thaksin is a dirty word and you can openly ridicule the guy in public. A similar thing in the Northern rural areas would not be advisable. A lot of the haterd has been whipped up by the village headmen and spinmeisters and a lot is based on misinformation, disinformation and lies but the fact is it still exisits and has to be dealt with. Whoever comes out on top in the pwoer struggle is going to have a lot of problems with this which is why either a negotiated settlement or a solution that is seen to come form the middle is the better way out than seeing a win for either side at least in the short term

yes in the short term there is no solution, and Abhisit won't be loved there. but the next one will give the headmen they money and it will work.....

The new politics from PAD won't work, at least not in the short term. You can't turn the society upside down in a short time. But other people will come.....

[cmsally]

Does anyone else get that sinking feeling that in the future when there is reporting about Thailand, it will be ...

" and this is xxx reporting on the situation in BKK from nearby here in Rangoon."

:D

People in control really do need to consider the previous points mentioned about a failing economy because it surely will happen and it will affect those living on the edge considerably.

This model may work for an agrarian, illiterate society but somehow I doubt all will fit back into the feudal bottle.

You will still have the Catch 22 situation where one side will claim it as a victory and then you will be back to square one.

Slightly off the point but relevant is that this year in Chiang Mai as its cold (well by Thai standards) you see the usual influx of mostly BKK tourists. This year is the first year that I have heard local people say BKK people having created such a political mess should stay at home and live in it. Somehow I think a grab for power by the BKK elite will not go down well in some regions of Thailand.

You get similar comments form different bits of the country. Sometimes they blame Bnagkok sometimes they blame Thaksin, it depends where you are. The regional divide is potentially a far bigger problem than the class one and one that wont go away. If Thaksin loses bits of the country wont be happy if he wins bits of ther country wont be happy. A compromise is the best hope but ......

The regional division is far overestimated. North East may love Thaksin, but the not paid demonstrations of the Thaksin supporters were always just 50-100 people. So not too much love. And how many others they loved before (including Chavalit)?? When the next corrupt one comes in 2 years and hand out loans and cash they will love him again.

If you go into farming areas of the North of Thailand (Isaan I dont know as well) you will find things like the word Abhisit almost spat when spoken and people talk fondly of Thaksin. In Chonburi where I live most of the time you will find Thaksin is a dirty word and you can openly ridicule the guy in public. A similar thing in the Northern rural areas would not be advisable. A lot of the haterd has been whipped up by the village headmen and spinmeisters and a lot is based on misinformation, disinformation and lies but the fact is it still exisits and has to be dealt with. Whoever comes out on top in the pwoer struggle is going to have a lot of problems with this which is why either a negotiated settlement or a solution that is seen to come form the middle is the better way out than seeing a win for either side at least in the short term

yes in the short term there is no solution, and Abhisit won't be loved there. but the next one will give the headmen they money and it will work.....

The new politics from PAD won't work, at least not in the short term. You can't turn the society upside down in a short time. But other people will come.....

So are you saying that Democrats or New Politics will be paying them in the future - I don't understand.

To a certain extent if this happens it may be the case but largely not.

In some places it goes back to the issue of the Emerald Buddha

and can be a very deep seated and emotive issue, not that easily solved with money.

Edited November 22, 2008 by cmsally

[LaoPo]

Ive got a feeling that Shawn is fishing with htis one. Anyway he'll either look like a prophet of genius or it will be one of his more embarrassing pieces that is quietly forgotten. It does raise an interesting question thouhg of who does run the country if the government parties are disolved and before they can join a new party.

Fishing......? could be. But those rumours could have a basis of truth also and would suit the PAD very much.

WHO, in the end will rule the country is indeed an interesting question but an even more interesting question is...for how long ?

Personally, I fear the (consequences of) economical downturn even more than the present unrest.

LaoPo

Well it does make sonse on one level.

~If the courts do see this erasing the existing Executive Power Structure

who DOES run things in the interim? A really good question.

At least someone behind the scenes has given some thought to a possible solution.

You may not LIKE it's method, but it's better than nothing, NOT running everything.

Any solutions yourself?

Who should take the helm if the main coalition paties are ALL found dissolved,

and elections take 2 months to get going?

The only functioning entities will be:

Judiciary committee, Senate committee, House committee, Privy Council.

Any solution myself ?....

Do you think that any of us Farang would possibly have a solution ?....

You, being an American living on Samui, claim to know the only functioning entities....?..really ?

Sir, I have been coming and going, working, business and holidays to Thailand and many other Far Eastern countries for so many years that I forgot how long (joking of course) but don't ever think that Farang will even come close to possible solutions because we are not able to think like a Thai...a Chinese....a Japanese...a Korean. We can try but we will never think, act and come to solutions the way they do.

Forget it

We (farang) can discuss, disagree and fight with words on a forum like TV about political solutions in Thailand but we are NEVER able to come up with the proper solutions !

I was and still am surprised over and over again that Farang always know better than the man in the Far East himself.

Many Farang have no idea about the fast growing self awareness of the Easterner in general.....his growing self confidence.

It's time for us Farang to be a bit more modest and to listen a bit more to the Easterner; he could teach us a thing or two

The 21st century belongs to the East, not the West (anymore).

LaoPo

Ah, so what other ones are publicly KNOWN to exist?

Who said I KNEW BETTER than the 'asian man'; only you did.

You also veer pretty close to using 'American', as an insult...

If some hypothetical star chamber exists,

why would I include that as any kind of publicly included body to chose from?

I was just looking at it logically. But you seem to think that is a foolish persuit.

And worthy of ridicule obviously...

As far as a interim government is concerned the only current choices

come from those publicly existing bodies.

If the executive is annulled who are the public choices? :

The judiciary has put forth a committee idea, they are not being annulled, so will exist.

Two legislative bodies.

The House is WAY to big to do it without cutting down members. ie a cabinet / committee.

If the parties ARE dissolved the HOUSE will be smaller, but still not small enough,

and Democrats will be the biggest party. Since the others will cease to exist.

Whether that means ALL their MP's lose their jobs instantly is unclear.

The NEW Puea party won't exist in the house at all.

Senate the other proper body is also too big,

Logically they could choose a committee. They won't be dissolved.

Privy council IS a committee already.

Much of the country would back that because of unity around HRM,

for the short time needed for new elections.

Everything else is back room shenanigans. Dark lords and conspiracy theories.

There was no reason to list any of it.

But ridicule away, you seem to LIKE that motus operandi.

You have a strange way of reading and interpretating my post.

I am sorry but it was you who mentioned as a fact: "The only functioning entities will be:.....Judiciary committee, Senate committee, House committee, Privy Council"; did you write that or not ?

I did NOT write that you knew better than the Asian man...sorry, but you just mentioned that yourself !

I wrote a.o. and I quote: "I was and still am surprised over and over again that Farang always know better than the man in the Far East himself.". But, if it fit your shoes, well so be it.

Also, I just mentioned that you were an American because you are; if you would have been from France I would have written you were French. Simple as that, and please don't start to see so called America bashing ghosts, ok ?

Furthermore: I did NOT ridicule you and it was certainly not meant that way. If you knew me a little more you would know better. But, that I have a different opinion than some others here on Thaivisa, doesn't mean that I ridicule other members; au contraire mon ami, au contraire It happens to be the way around; if people do not agree they start being nasty with me but that says more about them than myself.

I am sorry but I'm not going to discuss the future possible scenarios of governance in Thailand because it doesn't make any sense.

It's something which we just have to sit, wait and see, simply because you and I will be of no influence whatsoever WHO, WHAT and WHEN a new government will be in place...with or without the PAD, although it wouldn't surprise me at all, contrary to many so called PAD experts on this forum who are the opinion that the PAD will go home after they've reached their goals.

But, the moment they reach for power I promise you that most of the PAD supporters will regret they were so supportive.....watch and shiver !

LaoPo

[plachon]

Ive got a feeling that Shawn is fishing with htis one. Anyway he'll either look like a prophet of genius or it will be one of his more embarrassing pieces that is quietly forgotten. It does raise an interesting question thouhg of who does run the country if the government parties are disolved and before they can join a new party.

Fishing......? could be. But those rumours could have a basis of truth also and would suit the PAD very much.

WHO, in the end will rule the country is indeed an interesting question but an even more interesting question is...for how long ?

Personally, I fear the (consequences of) economical downturn even more than the present unrest.

LaoPo

Well it does make sonse on one level.

~If the courts do see this erasing the existing Executive Power Structure

who DOES run things in the interim? A really good question.

At least someone behind the scenes has given some thought to a possible solution.

You may not LIKE it's method, but it's better than nothing, NOT running everything.

Any solutions yourself?

Who should take the helm if the main coalition paties are ALL found dissolved,

and elections take 2 months to get going?

The only functioning entities will be:

Judiciary committee, Senate committee, House committee, Privy Council.

Any solution myself ?....

Do you think that any of us Farang would possibly have a solution ?....

You, being an American living on Samui, claim to know the only functioning entities....?..really ?

Sir, I have been coming and going, working, business and holidays to Thailand and many other Far Eastern countries for so many years that I forgot how long (joking of course) but don't ever think that Farang will even come close to possible solutions because we are not able to think like a Thai...a Chinese....a Japanese...a Korean. We can try but we will never think, act and come to solutions the way they do.

Forget it

We (farang) can discuss, disagree and fight with words on a forum like TV about political solutions in Thailand but we are NEVER able to come up with the proper solutions !

I was and still am surprised over and over again that Farang always know better than the man in the Far East himself.

Many Farang have no idea about the fast growing self awareness of the Easterner in general.....his growing self confidence.

It's time for us Farang to be a bit more modest and to listen a bit more to the Easterner; he could teach us a thing or two

The 21st century belongs to the East, not the West (anymore).

LaoPo

Ah, so what other ones are publicly KNOWN to exist?

Who said I KNEW BETTER than the 'asian man'; only you did.

You also veer pretty close to using 'American', as an insult...

If some hypothetical star chamber exists,

why would I include that as any kind of publicly included body to chose from?

I was just looking at it logically. But you seem to think that is a foolish persuit.

And worthy of ridicule obviously...

As far as a interim government is concerned the only current choices

come from those publicly existing bodies.

If the executive is annulled who are the public choices? :

The judiciary has put forth a committee idea, they are not being annulled, so will exist.

Two legislative bodies.

The House is WAY to big to do it without cutting down members. ie a cabinet / committee.

If the parties ARE dissolved the HOUSE will be smaller, but still not small enough,

and Democrats will be the biggest party. Since the others will cease to exist.

Whether that means ALL their MP's lose their jobs instantly is unclear.

The NEW Puea party won't exist in the house at all.

Senate the other proper body is also too big,

Logically they could choose a committee. They won't be dissolved.

Privy council IS a committee already.

Much of the country would back that because of unity around HRM,

for the short time needed for new elections.

Everything else is back room shenanigans. Dark lords and conspiracy theories.

There was no reason to list any of it.

But ridicule away, you seem to LIKE that motus operandi.

You have a strange way of reading and interpretating my post.

I am sorry but it was you who mentioned as a fact: "The only functioning entities will be:.....Judiciary committee, Senate committee, House committee, Privy Council"; did you write that or not ?

I did NOT write that you knew better than the Asian man...sorry, but you just mentioned that yourself !

I wrote a.o. and I quote: "I was and still am surprised over and over again that Farang always know better than the man in the Far East himself.". But, if it fit your shoes, well so be it.

Also, I just mentioned that you were an American because you are; if you would have been from France I would have written you were French. Simple as that, and please don't start to see so called America bashing ghosts, ok ?

Furthermore: I did NOT ridicule you and it was certainly not meant that way. If you knew me a little more you would know better. But, that I have a different opinion than some others here on Thaivisa, doesn't mean that I ridicule other members; au contraire mon ami, au contraire It happens to be the way around; if people do not agree they start being nasty with me but that says more about them than myself.

I am sorry but I'm not going to discuss the future possible scenarios of governance in Thailand because it doesn't make any sense.

It's something which we just have to sit, wait and see, simply because you and I will be of no influence whatsoever WHO, WHAT and WHEN a new government will be in place...with or without the PAD, although it wouldn't surprise me at all, contrary to many so called PAD experts on this forum who are the opinion that the PAD will go home after they've reached their goals.

But, the moment they reach for power I promise you that most of the PAD supporters will regret they were so supportive.....watch and shiver !

LaoPo

You're beginning to sound more like Lee Kuan Yew than ever before LaoPo. Or do I mean Kipling?

Who is this "mythical man from the Far East" pray. Please describe him, so I might recognise him, should I ever meet him or one of his kind.

Bring out your identikit and educate us, as you seem so sure that us "farangs" know so little this century.

[LaoPo]

You're beginning to sound more like Lee Kuan Yew than ever before LaoPo. Or do I mean Kipling?

Who is this "mythical man from the Far East" pray. Please describe him, so I might recognise him, should I ever meet him or one of his kind.

Bring out your identikit and educate us, as you seem so sure that us "farangs" know so little this century.

Aaahhh, another farang who knows the Far East so well...

For centuries ''we'' westerners, including the forefathers of my own country, knew what was best for the poor people of the countries they concurred, exploited and took slaves away to sell them to the so called New World.

''We'' showed little to no respect whatsoever because they were just simple dumb and uneducated yellow, brown or black people, weren't they ?

Let nobody tell me that the Brits, the Dutch, Belgians, French, Spaniards, Portuguese...I could go on....just traveled far away to educate the people of those countries and/or bring Christianity to them. They were just there to rob, steal and concur.

The wealth of so many countries is built upon their behavior.

The arrogance ''we'' showed was appalling and the attitude of some on Thaivisa is still the same....''we'' know better....we know best for the Thai...how they should drive, how to live....how to govern their own country.....who to put in prison.....we know best...don't we ?

It is unbelievable what kind of trash is thrown upon the Thai on this forum; how the Thai are bashed upon..unbelievable.

THAT's what I mean and I really don't care if you or anyone else tell me that this kind of attitude is not existing anymore, because it is everywhere in Thailand and the rest of the Far East, amongst many (but not all, fortrunately) of the great white men...

But, things are changing fast and the self confidence is growing....for the better

And, Plachon, since you mentioned Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, maybe you realize what Singapore has accomplished since 1965 ?....from scratch ?

Two days ago I watched a famous trendwatcher, Adjiedj Bakas * wo is now invited by the bankrupt country/government of Iceland to help them.

He mentioned that in 1965 Singapore, after the separation from the Federation of Malaysia, did something remarkable; they invited the world's top of the top economists and 'thinkers'/future watchers to ask them about which road Singapore should take. You know the results.

Interesting read:

http://www.spp.nus.edu.sg/docs/FAQ_Kishore_Mahbubani.pdf

Professor Kishore Mahbubani from Singapore is one of the world's greatest future viewers; the west doesn't even realize that China alone ''produce''' almost 6 million University educated students per year; just in case someone forgets: that's 10% of the total Thai population !

Well...whatever; let Thailand just dream on and stay the fun country it mainly is, for the westerners/farang that is.

* The Future of Finance by Adjiedj Bakas & Roger Peverelli

http://www.bakas.com/

And coming to the end...your denigrating message, addressed to me, doesn't harm me; it mainly says something about your superior self....after all, you do not have to read what I write, do you ?

LaoPo

[mc2]

More news on that strange cult otherwise known as the PAD.

If the nutty PAD fails in their quest, I hope we don't see another jonestown .

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/11/23...cs_30089120.php

Thinned-down demo site still has a flavour all its own

Published on November 23, 2008

After its announcement last week of an upcoming major rally, the People's Alliance for Democracy campaign will never be the same again. Our reporter Pravit Rojanaphruk earlier visited the PAD's protest site and got first-hand information what it looked like before a new round of 'offensive.'

The anti-government, anti-Thaksin Shinawatra People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) may have been making front-page news for much of the past six months, and its five co-leaders are household names, but visiting their headquarters at the illegally occupied Government House can shed more light on who these people are and what psychological state they are in.

Instead of 50,000 people as in its heyday, there are about 5,000, and the site from a distance looks desolate. At least six big buses with graffiti painted on them have had their wheels removed and are used as a barricade against any crackdown by police or political enemies.

Car tyres and barbed wire can be seen, along with lots and lots of bottled water used as a barricade, though perhaps the water is there as a solvent to wash tear gas away should any be deployed against PAD protesters.

Many small open-air stalls selling PAD paraphernalia attract visitors. T-shirts, mostly in yellow with various messages including "Every drop of blood ... to protect the throne" are on sale. The famous plastic hand-clappers, variously priced and sized, also abound.

Those deeply into the PAD leaders' personality cult can treat themselves to a plastic quartz watch, a la Swatch, with faces of the five co-leaders on the dial at Bt199 a pop. Swankier |versions in metal, some gold-plated, go for as much as Bt2,000.

One of the big sellers is a "fake" doctoral certificate with "authentic" signatures by the five PAD leaders issued for having completed the "save the country" political rally-cum-education course.

A donation of Bt100 is requested in order to secure one such "diploma" with your name on it, and the money will, supposedly, go to PAD co-leader Sondhi Limthongkul and his anti-government ASTV satellite television station.

Those who can't get enough PAD anti-government "education" can treat themselves to one of many dozen titles. One is devoted to PAD coordinator Suriyasai Katasila, who looks like a superstar or superhero on the large promotional banner with his real signature affixed near his larger-than-life face. ASTV also sells party CDs and DVDs.

Goods aside, there's a shrine to King Taksin the Great (not to be confused with Thaksin), who freed the Thai state from the Burmese yoke more than two centuries ago, and an exhibition-cum-shrine to two protesters who have died in recent days.

Then there's a painting of the PAD versus Thaksin and his "nominees", depicted in a clear good-versus-evil fashion, so there's no mistaking which side the PAD believes it's on.

Satirical posters and cartoons of all sorts can be found at a few booths. One mocked Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat for a recently leaked video clip of him on the Internet with a much younger lady. It portrays him as a womaniser who, while going about "his business", warns viewers not to forget to use a condom.

On stage are the usual rousing speeches predicting inevitable victory when the so-called New Politics restores morality and democracy. It is done in messianic fashion. One speaker after another, male and female, hurls abuse at the enemy, whom they called "dogs", "scum", "lackeys", "evil" (not unlike the tone of some political threads in Thai visa)and much more as the dwindling band of followers, many sporting royal-yellow T-shirts, continue to wield hand-clappers in apparent ecstasy.

"We will not step out [of Government House] until New Politics has materialised," declared one male speaker.

With fewer people and the coming of the cool, dry season, the stench of the place, which has been occupied for nearly three months, has subsided somewhat.

Donations of blankets were received and a raffle announced for them. One speaker said an elderly woman at the site had told her she had been sleeping well for the past two nights because she had heard no explosions in the area. She was referring to a recent minor blast which injured some protesters in the wee hours.

To some, the occupied site represents a beacon of "democratic hope" that will eliminate corrupt politicians like Thaksin; detractors see it as a place where self-righteous political conservatives are trying to turn back the clock of electoral democracy with a "New Politics" where voters will have fewer political rights and a handful of "self-righteous and benign" non-elected politicians will rule.

Any curious Thai or foreigner, PAD supporter or not, would be well advised to pay a visit to the site, for words and pictures cannot fully capture the cultish atmosphere.

Sondhi was recently questioned by the media when he dressed himself in white, splashing what appeared to be holy water on prostrated followers, something normally done by Buddhist monks. This writer's visit started to make it clear how such a thing could happen.

Edited November 22, 2008 by mc2

[plachon]

Frankly, I find your answer rather odd LP.

While you specifically dodged my question to describe this "Fareastern man" you keep on harking on about, as if there is some fundamental difference between humans in different continents and still set up this "us and them" dichotomy, which mostly exists in your own mind, not that of the people you principally want to attack.

Now let me clarify, I absolutely agree with you that European colonisation of Asia was on the whole a "bad thing" which is hard to defend in the present day and still leaves vestiges of negativity in both the colonising and colonised countries. Sometimes, this superiority and inferiority complex rears its ugly head on ThaiVisa, and is often put down fairly quickly by more astute and observant posters or Mods. We have common views I suspect over this issue.

But where we differ, is that you seem to want to confuse current overt distaste with the current Thaksin-backed regime expressed by many non-Thai members of this board with more than a minor stake in Thailand and concerns about its future, as some sort of neo-colonialism. It's purely in your own mind LaoPo.

And as for your expressed admiration for LKY and his current acolytes at his School of Public Policy and suggesting that the Singapore case is somehow representative for this massive continent called Asia (who you, like LKY) can synthesise down to a single identikit Homo fareasternus is to my mind, determinist and naive of reality.

Do you honestly think that the rest of Asia should emulate Singapore and sacrifice basic freedoms and human rights in the process. You do know that Singapore was one of Thaksin's model states and look where that litttle experiment got him!

[Nampeung]

Hear Hear Plachon

[LaoPo]

Frankly, I find your answer rather odd LP.

While you specifically dodged my question to describe this "Fareastern man" you keep on harking on about, as if there is some fundamental difference between humans in different continents and still set up this "us and them" dichotomy, which mostly exists in your own mind, not that of the people you principally want to attack.

Now let me clarify, I absolutely agree with you that European colonisation of Asia was on the whole a "bad thing" which is hard to defend in the present day and still leaves vestiges of negativity in both the colonising and colonised countries. Sometimes, this superiority and inferiority complex rears its ugly head on ThaiVisa, and is often put down fairly quickly by more astute and observant posters or Mods. We have common views I suspect over this issue.

But where we differ, is that you seem to want to confuse current overt distaste with the current Thaksin-backed regime expressed by many non-Thai members of this board with more than a minor stake in Thailand and concerns about its future, as some sort of neo-colonialism. It's purely in your own mind LaoPo.

And as for your expressed admiration for LKY and his current acolytes at his School of Public Policy and suggesting that the Singapore case is somehow representative for this massive continent called Asia (who you, like LKY) can synthesise down to a single identikit Homo fareasternus is to my mind, determinist and naive of reality.

Do you honestly think that the rest of Asia should emulate Singapore and sacrifice basic freedoms and human rights in the process. You do know that Singapore was one of Thaksin's model states and look where that litttle experiment got him!

Why oh why isn't it possible to have an honest and open discussion without bringing Mr. T. into it ? That is the problem: it's all about the previous and present rulers and the opposition, all of them hating each other so deep into their own blood vessels and thus killing the future of Thailand. What a sadness and waste of energy....

I'm getting so tired of this whole subject...endless discussions and disgusting attacks by many without EVER bringing a solution, which, obviously is not possible for us, farang.

I have been attacked because I was supposedly an admirer....now I'm expressing admiration for LKY....it's like listening to GWB: if you are not FOR us you are AGAINST us...

You are trying to manoeuvre me into a position...the problem for you is that you can't, ever and impossible.

You seem to despise the success of Singapore and it's leaders but you can't deny the fact that Singapore is a rather successful state with a high GDP per capita of some $ 50.000, all created within some 43 years, versus a mere GDP per capita of $ 8.000 for Thailand. It will be a long way before Thailand can even touch that kind of GDP per capita.

You and others may try to blame everything on the past and present governments but the facts are that Thailand had the same or even more opportunities in the same number of years (than Singapore) to steer Thailand to a successful economy; instead the various elite powers and military are still fighting each other and will continue to do so for many years to come, unfortunately.

In the meantime Thailand is on the brink of the same financial and economic crisis as the rest of the world but I can tell you here and now that the outcome for Thailand will be devastating also especially because foreign investors are sick and tired of this banana republic style of governance and ever changing laws, military coups and corruption...

At least Singapore is mostly free of corruption.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

You seem to despise the success of Singapore and it's leaders but you can't deny the fact that Singapore is a rather successful state with a high GDP per capita of some $ 50.000, all created within some 43 years, versus a mere GDP per capita of $ 8.000 for Thailand. It will be a long way before Thailand can even touch that kind of GDP per capita.

LaoPo

Maybe it's interesting to go back in time a little and have a look where countries like South Korea and Japan are now...both countries involved (and started) in different wars..we all know that.

Thailand, Korea and Japan (and Singapore much later) were all in a bad economical shape after WW II and Korea after 1953.

GDP per capita in 2007:

Thailand: $ 8,000

S Korea: $ 25.000

Japan: $ 33.000

Singapore: $ 50.000

Care to explain ?

Not much to explain...is there ?

LaoPo

[Nampeung]

Thailand is going down the tubes ... slippery slope

[animatic]

Way too much obsfucation and absolutism before breakfast...

[Nampeung]

Hey Animatic lets talk after breakfast darling

[animatic]

You seem to despise the success of Singapore and it's leaders but you can't deny the fact that Singapore is a rather successful state with a high GDP per capita of some $ 50.000, all created within some 43 years, versus a mere GDP per capita of $ 8.000 for Thailand. It will be a long way before Thailand can even touch that kind of GDP per capita.

LaoPo

Maybe it's interesting to go back in time a little and have a look where countries like South Korea and Japan are now...both countries involved (and started) in different wars..we all know that.

Thailand, Korea and Japan (and Singapore much later) were all in a bad economical shape after WW II and Korea after 1953.

GDP per capita in 2007:

Thailand: $ 8,000

S Korea: $ 25.000

Japan: $ 33.000

Singapore: $ 50.000

Care to explain ?

Not much to explain...is there ?

LaoPo

Complete corruption from the top down,

coupled to little but rote, mindless education.

They neglected to raise successive generations of flexible Thai thought.

Of course the societies you list looked WESTERN in their reconstructions, not far eastern.

They also implimented strict but flexable education for the whole populace.

When you think of these cultures, you see the parents riding the kids through school like whipmasters

on a wagon train. Occasionally Japanese mothers commit suicide if their child doesn't make it into

' the right school', because they think they have failed in their life's work.

Or there's mbap en rai... @ $8,000 a year

My uncle was one of those economists in 1965 advising Singapore....

Edited November 23, 2008 by animatic

[tig28]

Does anyone else get that sinking feeling that in the future when there is reporting about Thailand, it will be ...

" and this is xxx reporting on the situation in BKK from nearby here in Rangoon."

People in control really do need to consider the previous points mentioned about a failing economy because it surely will happen and it will affect those living on the edge considerably.

This model may work for an agrarian, illiterate society but somehow I doubt all will fit back into the feudal bottle.

You will still have the Catch 22 situation where one side will claim it as a victory and then you will be back to square one.

Slightly off the point but relevant is that this year in Chiang Mai as its cold (well by Thai standards) you see the usual influx of mostly BKK tourists. This year is the first year that I have heard local people say BKK people having created such a political mess should stay at home and live in it. Somehow I think a grab for power by the BKK elite will not go down well in some regions of Thailand.

You get similar comments form different bits of the country. Sometimes they blame Bnagkok sometimes they blame Thaksin, it depends where you are. The regional divide is potentially a far bigger problem than the class one and one that wont go away. If Thaksin loses bits of the country wont be happy if he wins bits of ther country wont be happy. A compromise is the best hope but ......

The regional division is far overestimated. North East may love Thaksin, but the not paid demonstrations of the Thaksin supporters were always just 50-100 people. So not too much love. And how many others they loved before (including Chavalit)?? When the next corrupt one comes in 2 years and hand out loans and cash they will love him again.

If you go into farming areas of the North of Thailand (Isaan I dont know as well) you will find things like the word Abhisit almost spat when spoken and people talk fondly of Thaksin. In Chonburi where I live most of the time you will find Thaksin is a dirty word and you can openly ridicule the guy in public. A similar thing in the Northern rural areas would not be advisable. A lot of the haterd has been whipped up by the village headmen and spinmeisters and a lot is based on misinformation, disinformation and lies but the fact is it still exisits and has to be dealt with. Whoever comes out on top in the pwoer struggle is going to have a lot of problems with this which is why either a negotiated settlement or a solution that is seen to come form the middle is the better way out than seeing a win for either side at least in the short term

As the words of "spinmeisters" go HAMMERED ------ this from you is an excellent example. I would not presume that my experience in the Esarn village I live in is duplicated elsewhere ------ but as personal experiences go ---- that statement from you (often parroted by others) is so far off the mark it is amazing. I often wonder where this kind of misinformation comes from. Here is some fact if you wish to hear ( about where I live).

The overall political opinion is largely anti-PAD. Thaksin is well regarded.

"whipped up by the village headmen" You seem to promote a view that this "headman" is some powerful, strong willed, Machiavellian master who leads the stupid, unknowing, docile, ignorant, villagers as he wishes.

That view is so far from the truth it is laughable!

It is the voters who have the elected headman jumping through their hoops.

It is a joke around here that you can always tell election time by the depth of the wais being delivered to the villagers by the hopeful.

Your "headman" has zero influence on village opinion --- political---social-- etc. He treads very warily around his village ---- trying not to alienate his voters. He would not be stupid enough to behave in any way but respectfully to the people who can elect/unelect him. The concept that this headman can influence--- strong-arm or threaten his voters to do ANYTHING they do not wish is simply rubbish.

SAFTEY:

Also I invite you to visit--- if you wish to walk around the village with Banners denouncing Thaksin ---- I am happy to accompany you --- all we will get is laughing ridicule ---- AND a few villagers to join us in support ---- not many but a few.

So your concern re personal safety is unfounded ---- regarding your "spinmeisters"--- I can but assume they sneak into the village very late at night and whisper really really softly ..........

[Los78]

Very true. It amazes how some members on TV look down on the North East people. This is maybe why they are so Anti-PAD in the North and Northeast because they know how worse off they would be if any of the crazy PAD ideas ever got accepted.

[h90]

Very true. It amazes how some members on TV look down on the North East people. This is maybe why they are so Anti-PAD in the North and Northeast because they know how worse off they would be if any of the crazy PAD ideas ever got accepted.

Yes there seem to be very strong anti-pad groups....the not paid demonstrations could mobilize 50-100 people.

[cmsally]

Very true. It amazes how some members on TV look down on the North East people. This is maybe why they are so Anti-PAD in the North and Northeast because they know how worse off they would be if any of the crazy PAD ideas ever got accepted.

Yes there seem to be very strong anti-pad groups....the not paid demonstrations could mobilize 50-100 people.

Seeing as you are so certain of numbers and facts of paid /not paid; perhaps you would care to give us some examples of a non paid demo. having between 50-100 participants. If you are certain of the concrete facts as you claim perhaps it is not too much to ask for date and location.

[h90]

Does anyone else get that sinking feeling that in the future when there is reporting about Thailand, it will be ...

" and this is xxx reporting on the situation in BKK from nearby here in Rangoon."

:D

People in control really do need to consider the previous points mentioned about a failing economy because it surely will happen and it will affect those living on the edge considerably.

This model may work for an agrarian, illiterate society but somehow I doubt all will fit back into the feudal bottle.

You will still have the Catch 22 situation where one side will claim it as a victory and then you will be back to square one.

Slightly off the point but relevant is that this year in Chiang Mai as its cold (well by Thai standards) you see the usual influx of mostly BKK tourists. This year is the first year that I have heard local people say BKK people having created such a political mess should stay at home and live in it. Somehow I think a grab for power by the BKK elite will not go down well in some regions of Thailand.

You get similar comments form different bits of the country. Sometimes they blame Bnagkok sometimes they blame Thaksin, it depends where you are. The regional divide is potentially a far bigger problem than the class one and one that wont go away. If Thaksin loses bits of the country wont be happy if he wins bits of ther country wont be happy. A compromise is the best hope but ......

The regional division is far overestimated. North East may love Thaksin, but the not paid demonstrations of the Thaksin supporters were always just 50-100 people. So not too much love. And how many others they loved before (including Chavalit)?? When the next corrupt one comes in 2 years and hand out loans and cash they will love him again.

If you go into farming areas of the North of Thailand (Isaan I dont know as well) you will find things like the word Abhisit almost spat when spoken and people talk fondly of Thaksin. In Chonburi where I live most of the time you will find Thaksin is a dirty word and you can openly ridicule the guy in public. A similar thing in the Northern rural areas would not be advisable. A lot of the haterd has been whipped up by the village headmen and spinmeisters and a lot is based on misinformation, disinformation and lies but the fact is it still exisits and has to be dealt with. Whoever comes out on top in the pwoer struggle is going to have a lot of problems with this which is why either a negotiated settlement or a solution that is seen to come form the middle is the better way out than seeing a win for either side at least in the short term

yes in the short term there is no solution, and Abhisit won't be loved there. but the next one will give the headmen they money and it will work.....

The new politics from PAD won't work, at least not in the short term. You can't turn the society upside down in a short time. But other people will come.....

So are you saying that Democrats or New Politics will be paying them in the future - I don't understand.

To a certain extent if this happens it may be the case but largely not.

In some places it goes back to the issue of the Emerald Buddha

and can be a very deep seated and emotive issue, not that easily solved with money.

New politic or Democrats/ honest politic might be in power for some time, but than the next one will come hand out money and get loved.

When you look back in history it was always the same. If Thaksin can't do anything anymore and some honest government is in charge, at the same time the next rat will be already touring thru the Nord-East and handing out money. Thaksin is forgotten and the next Thaksin-Style rat will be loved.

New Politics is a tool to stop that.....But I doubt that you can simply with a new constitution change the people from greed to good.