Thai Immediacy Mentality

[kmart]

The strange thing is that one does not need to cover up any truth. It is a pity that many people lazily accept the rules for truth instead of following their "real" ideals.

That's a very interesting point. "The Emperor Has No Clothes" !

Since most know the truth about why you don't really want to attend so-and-so's party, or often do, why pretend, why go through the rituals of pretence ?

Oddly, too, Thai culture is supposed to be one which values individuality very highly. In some ways, I do see this, but in many others it's patently not the case. (I will try to find a reference)

The power of indoctrination, I suppose.

"Form over substance" can be seen Asia-wide, I think (feel free to contradict if any countries don't fit),

but Thailand seems to have perfected the art form.

I think the Philippines and Thailand are seen as the "dumb blondes" of SE Asia. Preoccupied with style over substance, or "perfuming the turd" if you prefer.

Immediacy is the preserve of a country with a climate that has never seen anybody starve, or have to plan ahead to survive. Common to other countries on a similar latitude as this.

[sylviex]

I remember chemistry lessons at my school (in Oz) where the teacher threw large chunks of sodium into water and blew holes in the ceiling

That's a good teacher .

References:

Found what looks like an interesting article when googling:

Thai traditional cultural values are now being re-examined and assessed much more than in the past. For example, Thai individualism is not the rugged individualism that is found in many societies, for it is not completely divorced from a sense of collective responsibility. Many studies of this characteristic have shown that it is combined with the pattern of cooperation in the necessary task of the village life which is pragmatic, workable and reliable.

http://www2.kokugakuin.ac.jp/ijcc/wp/cimac/ratanakul.html

&

the world of individualism characterizes Thai people as free and independent souls. In some cases, the individualistic nature of the Thai personality refers to 'self-centeredness.' Values and behavior reflecting individualism and autonomy are rather usual in Thai culture. Thus, there is a popular phrase in Thai society that to do as one whishes is to be a genuine Thai. Moreover, the Thais have zest for enjoyment. (Keston, 1988) The individualism aspect seems to bring the lack or weakness of strong adherence to the social groups. Subsequence of this may partly account for the weakness of many social, economic and political activities in Thailand, which require strong grouping (group discipline, sense of belonging, etc.) to be successful. (Podhisita, 1998)

http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~tampai1/hk2004.htm

Interesting reference to self-centeredness there (ego?).

&

Together with in-depth studies, research data render support to the overall picture that the Thai social system is first and foremost a hierarchically structured society where individualism and interpersonal relationship are of utmost importance.

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/thaicharacter.asp

"Thai culture values individual/ism" brought up many other articles that seemed worth a look.

Edited October 21, 2008 by sylviex

[Super Hans]

Sir Jimmy Saville (Perhaps one of the finest Englishmen alive)

You mean hushed up child molester Jimmy Saville ??

Seen the Loius Theroux weekend ?? Or read the 'Sarah Cornley' allegations ??

You don't believe that, do you? That urban myth is up there with Marc Almond's stomach pump and Richard Gear's hamster.

[sylviex]

I think the Philippines and Thailand are seen as the "dumb blondes" of SE Asia. Preoccupied with style over substance, or "perfuming the turd" if you prefer.

I don't know the Philippines much; sounds perhaps even worse than here ?

But still, why ? Programming ? Why ? Could it be argued that most people here are more or less content, despite everything ?

Immediacy is the preserve of a country with a climate that has never seen anybody starve, or have to plan ahead to survive. Common to other countries on a similar latitude as this.

I have heard this argument before, and think it has some merit but it can't explain everything, can it ? (Or can it ?) Certainly, this is a highly exploitable population.

I often wonder what would happen if Thailand produced a Mao.

May we live in interesting times .

[Jingthing]

Singapore kind of defies the climate as destiny idea.

[PhilHarries]

Observations on Thai industrial safety practice are easy to make - remembering what UK safety was like before the Health and Safety at Work Act is a little more difficult.

If you think that your culture was more safety conscious at that time than the Thais are now I say you are kidding yourself.

This kind of thinking surely condems developing countries to making the same mistakes we in the west made? Nationalism does not stop a people learning from the mistakes of other countries and cultures.

A bit off topic but..................

I remember discussing Thai fishing methods with a Thai colleague and criticising the use of fine mesh nets and the prevalent culture of taking all and everything edible from the sea with no regard for the future. His response was to point out that the Europeans have done the same to the North Sea and were therefore in no position to lecture. Fair point, we have plundered the natural resources but we are now paying the price big time and stand as a stark lesson to all of the dangers of underestimating the impact of our exploitation of our environment.

Road Safety is mentioned too.

There again those critical of the Thais are perhaps forgetting that until the early 1970s there was virtually no road safety campaigns in the UK, the real change coming with the Anti Drink Drive Laws and the seat belt campaign.

The seat belt campaign 'Clunk Click Every Trip' is worth looking at because it demonstrates how the governments of the day understood that it was not going to be easy to change the British perceptions of safety and get drivers to take the extra safety precaution of 'Belting Up'. Sir Jimmy Saville (Perhaps one of the finest Englishmen alive) was chosen to front that campaign because he was seen a someone who could persuade rather than lecture people into changing behaviour (Contrast this with today's attitudes of make it illegal and come down with the force of the law - Or, I would add the attitude of many hear of pointing the finger at the Thais and proclaiming TiT).

So a change of attitude to safety by consensus and only after long efforts to educate people on the risks and necessary precautions.

In both cases, industrial and road safety these changes to the Safety Culture in the UK came about after sustained campaigns to get safety laws in place (sustained campaigns to water down safety laws) and after huge expenditure of effort and cash in educating employers, employees and road users.

The fact that people in/from the UK understand and comply with safety measures is an indication of the success of the campaign - that they see their understanding as part of their culture is a double tick - Safety Culture in the UK has been changed.

But without the law the campaigns would have been a waste of time.

But has it - How many UK Citizens raised on this culture of safety are pointing the finger at Thais over safety yet are themselves willing to drive a little too fast, have a few too many drinks than they know is safe just because TiT?

Yes, we westerners still generally have this inbred arrogance that we are better than the rest and can lord it around just because we have that fistfull of dollars that make all the problems go away.

Interesting the references to the UK "nanny state" that pop up in many a thread on life in Thailand compared to home. Let's get this straight it is not the "nanny state" that is the problem it is all the cossetted little softies that live in the state that should look at themselves closely. Up to 30 years ago if we tripped over an uneven paving slab we just thought "stupid bu66er pick yer feet up and watch where you are going". Nowadays the reaction is to grab a few witnesses and get onto one of those claims beaureau that proudly offer "no win no fee". We in the UK used to take the p1ss out of the Americans for their culture of litigation now we are no different. The so called "nanny state" is nothing more than society protecting itself from mindless litigation.

Also interesting are the gung ho "let us live life how we wish to according to our personal ideals" brigade. I wonder how their views might sound after attending their teenage daughter's funeral. Dead because she wasn't influenced to wear a crash helmet or a seat belt.

The subject of the thread "Thai immediacy" or the ignorance/disregard for the consequences of the individual's actions has been likened to the "live for today for tomorrow may never come" mentality. Sure, none of us can say with 100% surety that we will see tomorrow's dawn but we, most of us at least, usually plan on doing something tomorrow without a second thought. Otherwise we may as well get stuck into that case of Isle of Jura 21 year old as it might be our last chance and it would be a shame to waste it.

Just some random thoughts off and on topic.

[on-on]

I have heard this argument before, and think it has some merit but it can't explain everything, can it ? (Or can it ?) Certainly, this is a highly exploitable population.

I'm not posting to support or critique the theory, but if you want the long version then you can pick up a copy of this book at most international bookstores (Kinokuniya surely has a copy or two). It's one of the theses of the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fat.../dp/0393061310/

Haven't read it in years and am not any kind of expert to comment on its veracity, but an interesting read nonetheless.

Singapore kind of defies the climate as destiny idea.

As the theory goes, Singapore probably wouldn't be a great example as it was nearly created from whole cloth. From my reading, in the era of colonialism it was pretty much just another tropical island sultanate (?) with some old villages. If I recall that correctly and what happened next roughly correctly (which I very well may not), Singapore as we know it (heavily populated, multicultural "free trade zone" [modern terminology there]) was created after Raffles came along, made his various dealings and fostered the growth from without. The climate as destiny thing isn't something I have any authority to say is true or false and I'm not arguing it pro or con, but it seems only applied to places that evolved largely based on domestic factors. Obviously I'm aware that almost every country around here was colonized and changed to some degree (often a great one), but most had and retained an identity that left them culturally intact. I'm not sure what Singapore was like before Raffles, but from what I've read it sounds like it changed dramatically and mostly due to an influx of foreign influences rendering any domestic culture's influence very muted. The climate-as-destiny theory seems to mostly be applied to isolated countries that were less-fettered by colonialism (Thailand is sort of an interesting case for that reason).

Then again I could be talking out of my butthole.

[kmart]

[

I often wonder what would happen if Thailand produced a Mao.

I think Thailand has produced quite a few, over the years. The national religion and monarchy have kept the balance from tipping too far though.

[soundman]

"If you keep welding this way, pretty soon you won't be able to see [the puddle]."

He nodded again, kind of friendly and knowing, yet at the same time with a look of resignation.

I looked back once to see him striking an arc .. nothing except the sunglasses.

I understand that welding helmets are hot .. I have welded a time or two. I have also suffered some flash burns.

You can actually buy welding sunglasses with the correct tint level for arc or even large wire MIG. (Tey come in a variety of tint levels) They work fine, you can stare directly at the sun with them on, however, after a day of use you generally end up with "racoon face".

They are available at most hardware stores, however, you must make sure you get the ones for arc welding, not acetylene cutting.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Maigo6]

"If you keep welding this way, pretty soon you won't be able to see [the puddle]."

He nodded again, kind of friendly and knowing, yet at the same time with a look of resignation.

I looked back once to see him striking an arc .. nothing except the sunglasses.

I understand that welding helmets are hot .. I have welded a time or two. I have also suffered some flash burns.

You can actually buy welding sunglasses with the correct tint level for arc or even large wire MIG. (Tey come in a variety of tint levels) They work fine, you can stare directly at the sun with them on, however, after a day of use you generally end up with "racoon face".

They are available at most hardware stores, however, you must make sure you get the ones for arc welding, not acetylene cutting.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Soundman,

how dare you put some facts in a Thai bashing post !!

I have used the welding sunglasses for every weld I have ever done in Thailand, and my eyes are better than a Falcons.

[bonobo]

A bit off topic but..................

I remember discussing Thai fishing methods with a Thai colleague and criticising the use of fine mesh nets and the prevalent culture of taking all and everything edible from the sea with no regard for the future. His response was to point out that the Europeans have done the same to the North Sea and were therefore in no position to lecture. Fair point, we have plundered the natural resources but we are now paying the price big time and stand as a stark lesson to all of the dangers of underestimating the impact of our exploitation of our environment.

I have heard this over and over, and while the initial claim is true, the response is extremely shortsighted.

My mother used to use the commonly held phrase when I wanted to do something that someone else had done, "If he jumped over a cliff, would you do that, too?"  Just because the US and Europe may have gutted their lands and resourses, it does not mean it is OK to do that in the rest of the world as well.

We were ignorant of the consequences before and acted accordingly. We know now some of the mistakes we have made, and we are trying to get those lessons out to the world at large. For your THai colleague to say it is OK for THais to fish like that here because Europeans denuded the North Sea is counter-productive. North Sea or not, these practices will make Thai fisheries wastelands.

Yes, much of Western society has built its economic foundation on previous plundering of their own and colonial resources. And plundering resources in the developed world may be a way to jump start the standard of living in the short term. But it has to stop, or we all suffer. So maybe the more economically developed countries need to get more involved and help the other nations gain in economic development without raping the environment. Let everyone share the burden.