Sponsor: Nana Pasta Sauce

[DP25]

It'd be nice if you could get your sauce stocked at Foodland. Villa and Tops are great, but they're not open 24 hours. At least none of the locations I can think of...

[NanaFoods]

lol did you make this one up or you're just having a laff? priceless!

Not quite sure what how to respond to that... but I guess the part about Soi Nana was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

just the whole idea, shelf stable, pasteurized tomato based pasta sauces conceptualized by a farang (presumably American), produced in Thailand, by Thais using local produce and imports from various countries. Named after a BKK tourist area. I thought it quite funny, especially as you pass them off as typical Italian. Out of curiosity, what is "Traditional" sauce?

1. I didn't invent bottled pasta sauce. It's a rather large international industry, even in Italy.

2. I'm an Italian-American.

3. It's named after my Italian grandmother (my Nana, Mary Mazzia). Google Mary Mazzia and you will find some of her work referenced by UC San Juaquin and UC Davis (http://cesanjoaquin.ucdavis.edu/files/896.pdf). She is sister of Tony Ciampi, long-time grower of vegies in Santa Barbara. She also dedicated close to 50 years of her life to charity work cooking for the Franciscan brothers at the SB Mission. She is also cousin of Salvatore Ferragamo and spent some time living in the same household as him, when he was living in Santa Barbara building his shoe business. She taught me the ins-and-outs of Italian cooking. She was married to my Papa (grandpa) for 60 years, was an active dynamo until her last day, and is deserving of much respect.

4. The ingredients we use are top quality. Thailand grows wonderful plum tomatoes, onions and garlic. We use fresh Italian herbs grown at the royal project - not Thai herbs. You can read some of the user comments above and/or actually taste for yourself to see if I am "passing them off", or if they actually do taste authentic. In fact, I encourage you to compare us to the more expensive Italian brands.

Aside from that, what's wrong with Thai labor? Does it matter who peels/seeds the tomatoes and chops the onions or even who is the sous chef? I really can't follow your reasoning here. The labor aspect is no different from any Italian restaurant in Thailand. Its the recipe and process that matters, which is controlled by management - me, in my company's case, and the head chef at any Italian restaurant.

5. Traditional sauce - basic Italian tomato pasta sauce (with Italian herbs) - used to make many Italian dishes besides pasta, or expanded upon as a base to make other sauces (by adding meat, wine, vegies, etc). Made with simple ingredients, but not so easy to get "balanced" just right.

Edited October 29, 2008 by ChefHeat

[NanaFoods]

It'd be nice if you could get your sauce stocked at Foodland. Villa and Tops are great, but they're not open 24 hours. At least none of the locations I can think of...

Foodland wants waaaaaaay too much money for shelf space.

Maybe later down the road.... once we can get greater market acceptance.

Not sure where you live, but Villa Market in Pattaya is open 24-hrs.

[thaigerd]

Are your products available in Phuket(TOPS ?)

Gerd

[NanaFoods]

Are your products available in Phuket(TOPS ?)

Gerd

Yes.

At Tops in Central Festival, Phuket.

--------------------

1st Floor, Central Festival Phuket

Chalermprakiat Rd.

T. Vichit, A. Muang

Phuket 83000

Tel: 076 291 111

[junkofdavid2]

It's named after my Italian grandmother (Nana, Mary Mazzia). Google Mary Mazzia and you will find some of her work referenced by UC San Juaquin and UC Davis (http://cesanjoaquin.ucdavis.edu/files/896.pdf). She is sister of Tony Ciampi, long-time grower of vegies in Santa Barbara. She also dedicated close to 50 years of her life to charity work cooking for the Franciscan brothers at the Mission. She is also cousin of Salvatore Ferragamo and spent some time living in the same household as him, when he was living in Santa Barbara building his shoe business. She taught me the ins-and-outs of Italian cooking. She was married to my Papa (grandpa)...

I'm sure she's a great woman.

To a foreigner, sounds kinda like a "Godfather" genealogy... I guess I've been watchin too many movies.

Edited October 29, 2008 by junkofdavid2

[NanaFoods]

It's named after my Italian grandmother (Nana, Mary Mazzia). Google Mary Mazzia and you will find some of her work referenced by UC San Juaquin and UC Davis (http://cesanjoaquin.ucdavis.edu/files/896.pdf). She is sister of Tony Ciampi, long-time grower of vegies in Santa Barbara. She also dedicated close to 50 years of her life to charity work cooking for the Franciscan brothers at the Mission. She is also cousin of Salvatore Ferragamo and spent some time living in the same household as him, when he was living in Santa Barbara building his shoe business. She taught me the ins-and-outs of Italian cooking. She was married to my Papa (grandpa)...

I'm sure she's a great woman.

Thanks. She certainly was to me, and to many others in the Santa Barbara community. I think over 1000 people attended her funeral held at the SB Mission. She and my Papa were given the honor of being buried at the SB Mission mausoleum as well, something not available to just anyone - in fact, the last two available graves were reserved for them for years.

To a foreigner, sounds kinda like a "Godfather" genealogy... I guess I've been watchin too many movies.

I can see how that might seem that way ... Italian culture and tradition are still strong in my family after 3 generations in America. But I assure you, to my knowledge, there were no nefarious elements in my family - mostly just hardworking farmers and...uhhh... businesspeople

[bkkjames]

It's named after my Italian grandmother (Nana, Mary Mazzia). Google Mary Mazzia and you will find some of her work referenced by UC San Juaquin and UC Davis (http://cesanjoaquin.ucdavis.edu/files/896.pdf). She is sister of Tony Ciampi, long-time grower of vegies in Santa Barbara. She also dedicated close to 50 years of her life to charity work cooking for the Franciscan brothers at the Mission. She is also cousin of Salvatore Ferragamo and spent some time living in the same household as him, when he was living in Santa Barbara building his shoe business. She taught me the ins-and-outs of Italian cooking. She was married to my Papa (grandpa)...

I'm sure she's a great woman.

Thanks. She certainly was to me, and to many others in the Santa Barbara community. I think over 1000 people attended her funeral held at the SB Mission. She and my Papa were given the honor of being buried at the SB Mission mausoleum as well, something not available to just anyone - in fact, the last two available graves were reserved for them for years.

To a foreigner, sounds kinda like a "Godfather" genealogy... I guess I've been watchin too many movies.

I can see how that might seem that way ... Italian culture and tradition are still strong in my family after 3 generations in America. But I assure you, to my knowledge, there were no nefarious elements in my family - mostly just hardworking farmers and...uhhh... businesspeople

Ok Tony, we will take your word for it.

[Sarge]

1. I didn't invent bottled pasta sauce. It's a rather large international industry, even in Italy.

2. I'm an Italian-American.

3. It's named after my Italian grandmother (my Nana, Mary Mazzia). Google Mary Mazzia and you will find some of her work referenced by UC San Juaquin and UC Davis (http://cesanjoaquin.ucdavis.edu/files/896.pdf). She is sister of Tony Ciampi, long-time grower of vegies in Santa Barbara. She also dedicated close to 50 years of her life to charity work cooking for the Franciscan brothers at the SB Mission. She is also cousin of Salvatore Ferragamo and spent some time living in the same household as him, when he was living in Santa Barbara building his shoe business. She taught me the ins-and-outs of Italian cooking. She was married to my Papa (grandpa) for 60 years, was an active dynamo until her last day, and is deserving of much respect.

4. The ingredients we use are top quality. Thailand grows wonderful plum tomatoes, onions and garlic. We use fresh Italian herbs grown at the royal project - not Thai herbs. You can read some of the user comments above and/or actually taste for yourself to see if I am "passing them off", or if they actually do taste authentic. In fact, I encourage you to compare us to the more expensive Italian brands.

Aside from that, what's wrong with Thai labor? Does it matter who peels/seeds the tomatoes and chops the onions or even who is the sous chef? I really can't follow your reasoning here. The labor aspect is no different from any Italian restaurant in Thailand. Its the recipe and process that matters, which is controlled by management - me, in my company's case, and the head chef at any Italian restaurant.

5. Traditional sauce - basic Italian tomato pasta sauce (with Italian herbs) - used to make many Italian dishes besides pasta, or expanded upon as a base to make other sauces (by adding meat, wine, vegies, etc). Made with simple ingredients, but not so easy to get "balanced" just right.

1. Indeed, pasteurised, shelf stable sauces (not just pasta bases) it’s a huge market. Most of the world’s leading food manufacturers have dedicated ranges. But as in anything that gets standardised, recipes and flavours get blander departing from what was the original idea (pasta sauces, curries etc..), ingredients get swapped to the nearest available local substitute or totally changed, in part to assuage local sensitivities and tastes. It misleads customers palate into believing that is the facto-standard. Hence you get [.........] (fill in the nationality) holidaying in the country’s recipe origin, trying the real deal and get shocked to find that it’s totally different to what they’ve been weaned at home. I’ve seen and visited few manufacturing plants worldwide as well as tiny one-man band operations but I haven’t come across this one yet

2. good on ya

3. I wouldn’t have a clue who all these people are, and I suspect most people outside Santa Barbara wouldn’t have either. I do know of Salvatore Ferragamo, a shoe designer who died in 1960. It’s charming nonetheless to see emigrants trying to educate far-flung people on Italian cooking and culture by reflex

4. That’s where things get tricky, no wanting to get too much into details, partly as I haven’t visited your factory, so I’ll make some general comments. Thai tomatoes have different texture and acidity level than Italian’s. Plum tomatoes (San Marzano variety) have almost been replaced by the Roma quality (an ad hoc spin off from the original) in most of the pasta sauces’ manufacturers processes. Herbs like basil share only the name, Italian basil and Thai basil are two totally different animals. Spices like chilli have different fierceness and flavour. Italian ‘peperoncino’ and Thai ‘prik” are distant cousins. However, it’s interesting to see that you’re growing them here. I’d be interested to visit the garden and trying them. Manufacturing processes and Thai labour, can’t comment in details as I haven’t seen your operation but I do know some Italian restaurants in Thailand (not just BKK) and apart from a few cases, they implement piss poor operation management, giving wrong or basic at best, training to their cooks and front room staff. Not surprising as the vast majority of them have no formal training and never run similar operation in Italy or elsewhere. Most use local produce, partly because it’s difficult and expensive to purchase original ingredients but also because they can get away with it as their customers are tourist who wouldn’t know better. After a honeymoon period, they cut costs purchasing low quality local ingredients, employing students in order to maximise their profits, whilst delaying paying their hapless suppliers to the point of being on stop. This happens worldwide not just Thailand. But, hey I’ll look out for your products when I’m back in January. Does your supply chain reach the provinces (like Isaan)?

5. Traditional has no meaning in Italy, it’d be called pasta base sauce. Regarding Amatriciana, the original ingredients are different to the one you posted here. You’re using near enough substitutes, as I mentioned in my previous point.

Anyway, best of luck with your operation, I’ll follow your endavour to see how it develops over the time. Q.: have you made provision / plans to gear your manufacturing processes into catering foodservice mode?

[Sarge]

What percentage of Italian home cooks in Italy do you reckon spend hours simmering their own from scratch pasta sauces?

I have been buying made in Italy bottled sauces in Thailand but I will be happy to try out this locally made product.

For that matter, what percentage of Thai home cooks in Thailand do you figure make their own curry pastes from scratch?

this a misleading and wrong statement

it takes half hour, top, to prepare Bucatini all'Amatriciana (a sauce mentioned here) at home, from when you start preparing to moment you sit down and eat it. You don't "simmer" or stew sauces. Most of pasta sauces are easy and quick to prepare, once you know what you're talking about. One of the few sauces that has a long cooking process is Ragu' (called Bolognese outside Italy), but then again it's worth the effort

Thais do cook from scratch, they, unlike Anglo-Saxon people, value their food and shop daily. Curries are not cooked daily, in most provinces of Thailand

It's easy and relatively quick to cook from scratch, it takes more effort in shopping at local market than labouring in the kitchen. The results are spectacularly better and more rewarding than buying ready meals or prepared sauces in the shops. It's a cultural and mental habit

[NanaFoods]

Indeed, pasteurised, shelf stable sauces (not just pasta bases) it's a huge market. Most of the world's leading food manufacturers have dedicated ranges. But as in anything that gets standardised, recipes and flavours get blander departing from what was the original idea (pasta sauces, curries etc..), ingredients get swapped to the nearest available local substitute or totally changed, in part to assuage local sensitivities and tastes. It misleads customers palate into believing that is the facto-standard. Hence you get [.........] (fill in the nationality) holidaying in the country's recipe origin, trying the real deal and get shocked to find that it's totally different to what they've been weaned at home. I've seen and visited few manufacturing plants worldwide as well as tiny one-man band operations but I haven't come across this one yet

I have no intention on trying to please the average Thai palate, as I am looking for export opportunities in Asia. In fact, I just received word from an agent I am working with that our sauces have passed Singapore FDA analysis.

Are you a food critic by profession?

That's where things get tricky, no wanting to get too much into details, partly as I haven't visited your factory, so I'll make some general comments. Thai tomatoes have different texture and acidity level than Italian's.

Correct. However, since Italian tomatoes require the addition of citric acid (in all the bottled sauces I've examined) to keep the pH within the safety range, and since a bottled sauce must go through a heat-treatment process to pass FDA regulations for food safety, it doesn't make much difference on acidity or texture.

If one is so inclined to be so critical on minute details of authenticity, then most likely that person would be eating at a gourmet restaurant, or cooking themselves if they have the ability. We're not competing with 5-star gourmet Italian restaurants - just the other bottled brands.

Herbs like basil share only the name, Italian basil and Thai basil are two totally different animals.

We don't use Thai herbs of any sort.

can't comment in details as I haven't seen your operation but I do know some Italian restaurants in Thailand (not just BKK) and apart from a few cases, they implement piss poor operation management, giving wrong or basic at best, training to their cooks and front room staff. Not surprising as the vast majority of them have no formal training and never run similar operation in Italy or elsewhere. Most use local produce, partly because it's difficult and expensive to purchase original ingredients but also because they can get away with it as their customers are tourist who wouldn't know better. After a honeymoon period, they cut costs purchasing low quality local ingredients, employing students in order to maximise their profits, whilst delaying paying their hapless suppliers to the point of being on stop. This happens worldwide not just Thailand.

Yes, there are crappy restaurants all over the planet... including in Italy. As you allude, it all depends on the management and training. But I was referring above to more well-run ones in Thailand that do have good training, and import necessary ingredients as required, or take advantage of the Royal Project's many quality offerings of Western vegetables and herbs (usually grown in greenhouses around Chiangmai).

But, hey I'll look out for your products when I'm back in January. Does your supply chain reach the provinces (like Isaan)?

yes, we sell in Isaan, please have a look at the bottom of our website home page.

Traditional has no meaning in Italy, it'd be called pasta base sauce.

I have no intention of marketing in Italy, and the international bottled pasta sauce market has long established the "Traditional" nomencalture.

Regarding Amatriciana, the original ingredients are different to the one you posted here. You're using near enough substitutes, as I mentioned in my previous point.

Being a bottled pasta sauce, it's not going to have the same texture as one would make Amatriciana at home either. We have compete with what's on the supermarket shelves and the leading brand that dominate the market share. We are too small to take huge risks, but we try to differentiate ourselves as best we can, or one-up them somehow. Again, we're not competing with 5-star restaurants or trying to satisfy Italian "pasta sauce snobs" who automatically scoff at any bottle pasta sauce (I have them in my own family, so no offense meant to anyone out there).

I know full well there are certain constraints regarding bottled pasta sauces (pH management and FDA food safety requirments) that limit their ability to compare to fresh-made pasta sauces (caveat: when done right!).

But we're in a business of convenience + flavour vs. price.

I opened this thread because we are a young company, and I am interested in feedback for improvement, or if we got it right already (from Westerners' point of view).

Anyway, best of luck with your operation, I'll follow your endavour to see how it develops over the time.

Well, thanks.... I think.

Q.: have you made provision / plans to gear your manufacturing processes into catering foodservice mode?

Been looking into it, but not quite there yet.

We would need to get larger retort machine that would accomodate retort bag capability or perhaps canning equipment for large cans.

[thaigerd]

Are your products available in Phuket(TOPS ?)

Gerd

Yes.

At Tops in Central Festival, Phuket.

--------------------

1st Floor, Central Festival Phuket

Chalermprakiat Rd.

T. Vichit, A. Muang

Phuket 83000

Tel: 076 291 111

Than I've bought your sauce some weeks ago, it was excellent!

Good texture, great taste and a lot cheaper as these Italian brands they have there.

Congratulations!

Gerd

[Jingthing]

Me: For that matter, what percentage of Thai home cooks in Thailand do you figure make their own curry pastes from scratch?

You:

Thais do cook from scratch, they, unlike Anglo-Saxon people, value their food and shop daily. Curries are not cooked daily, in most provinces of Thailand

Thanks for correcting a "myth" that I had that real Italian mamas simmer their from scratch tomato sauce for hours. It is refreshing to have long held beliefs challenged by an expert.

The Thai thing I still think you have wrong. I specifically said PASTES. Do you know how many ground spices go into making a green curry PASTE from scratch? I bet you most Thai home cooks in this modern age (you can buy these pre-made fresh PASTES in markets) and even restaurants do not make their own CURRY PASTES from scratch. That is a different thing than cooking the curry using the paste.

I am on your side and if I like the taste of your sauces I will surely be a loyal customer, so good luck with your sauces ...

Thai curry pastes (pre-made and ready to use) for sale in a local Thai market

Edited October 29, 2008 by Jingthing

[Sarge]

I have no intention on trying to please the average Thai palate, as I am looking for export opportunities in Asia. In fact, I just received word from an agent I am working with that our sauces have passed Singapore FDA analysis.

Are you a food critic by profession?

Nope, I’m in the food industry by training and trade, been involved in this kind of business for yonks and in a much larger scale. I think you’ll find the Singapore market more commercially rewarding if you can break into it, but local commercial dynamics are different to what you’re used in Thailand.

Correct. However, since Italian tomatoes require the addition of citric acid (in all the bottled sauces I've examined) to keep the pH within the safety range, and since a bottled sauce must go through a heat-treatment process to pass FDA regulations for food safety, it doesn't make much difference on acidity or texture.

If one is so inclined to be so critical on minute details of authenticity, then most likely that person would be eating at a gourmet restaurant, or cooking themselves if they have the ability. We're not competing with 5-star gourmet Italian restaurants - just the other bottled brands.

well, yes and no; Italian tomatoes grown in the southern regions are harvested before they reach the optimal sugary level, due to pressing commercial reasons. Also the soil and climate is rather dry. Hence you have a tomato that has high level of acidity. That is why prompting some people to add sugar during home cooking. Yes the ph is a constant concern, to tomato growers when they can it. But the different texture, acidity & sugar level and water content between the two fresh tomatoes does make a difference.

Of course we’re no comparing ready made sauces to home cooking or restaurant offering. I just pointed it out the fact that you branded the whole concept as typical Italian style cooking. Btw, still not sure about the derivation of the word Nana. In Italian language grandma is Nonna.

We don't use Thai herbs of any sort.

Yes, there are crappy restaurants all over the planet... including in Italy. As you allude, it all depends on the management and training. But I was referring above to more well-run ones in Thailand that do have good training, and import necessary ingredients as required, or take advantage of the Royal Project's many quality offerings of Western vegetables and herbs (usually grown in greenhouses around Chiangmai).

I have no intention of marketing in Italy, and the international bottled pasta sauce market has long established the "Traditional" nomencalture.

Being a bottled pasta sauce, it's not going to have the same texture as one would make Amatriciana at home either. We have compete with what's on the supermarket shelves and the leading brand that dominate the market share. We are too small to take huge risks, but we try to differentiate ourselves as best we can, or one-up them somehow. Again, we're not competing with 5-star restaurants or trying to satisfy Italian "pasta sauce snobs" who automatically scoff at any bottle pasta sauce (I have them in my own family, so no offense meant to anyone out there).

I know full well there are certain constraints regarding bottled pasta sauces (pH management and FDA food safety requirments) that limit their ability to compare to fresh-made pasta sauces (caveat: when done right!).

But we're in a business of convenience + flavour vs. price.

I opened this thread because we are a young company, and I am interested in feedback for improvement, or if we got it right already (from Westerners' point of view).

Sure, there may be a tiny percentage of crappy Italian restaurants in Italy. At least they can say they’re the real thing. In my experience in Europe, Australia, S. America and S.E. Asia the majority of Italian restaurants, caterers & manufacturers dubbing in Italian food have a poor resemblance with what is produced and cooked in Italy. See, and here I’m getting off the tangent, Italian cuisine is well known internationally and loads of people want to join in the bandwagon to cash in. It happened with pizza, a concept now too far bastardized worldwide that is beyond reprieve by the Italian government. You get hilarious situation where some Americans believe that pizza was invented in NY by Italian immigrants at the turn of the last century. I kid you not! Just look at the pizza thread in the food forum. It came from a mod of all people. It was priceless

It’s not a case of competing against 5 star restaurants or being “pasta sauces snob”, but if you market a sauce, like Amatriciana as typical Italian recipe than you should know it’s made of pecorino (the Roman variety, rather than Sardinian) and not parmiggiano (or you're using grana instead?) and guanciale (Italian cured pork cheek) and not bacon, a cut from a different part of the pork that is rarely used in Italy. I think maybe there is an opportunity to pitch your products to a different level from the mass producers. You’’ll never be able to compete with them so why not offering a boutique range, given that you have a great family cooking background, of premium sauces that depart from the usual Bolognese, Amatriciana etc... Thailand is a virgin market for this type of products, rich locals are as snobbish and fashion conscious as you can get anywhere in the world. Emporium food hall is a great place to be in.

yes, we sell in Isaan, please have a look at the bottom of our website home page.

will do

Well, thanks.... I think.

yeah .... you're welcome

Been looking into it, but not quite there yet.

We would need to get larger retort machine that would accomodate retort bag capability or perhaps canning equipment for large cans.

as you look into it harder you'll be more attracted to the FS model. Once you get past the initial capital outlay, you'll get higher return in the long term, less expenditure and marketing commitments. and then horizon will widen once you tap in the private label channel

[sceadugenga]

I lived near and worked with Italians in Australia for decades.

They all grew tomatoes and when the crop came in they made a year's supply of sauce and bottled it.

Usually in beer bottles topped with crown seals.

But then they were mainly Calabrese who probably didn't know any better.

[dingdongrb]

It happened with pizza, a concept now too far bastardized worldwide that is beyond reprieve by the Italian government. You get hilarious situation where some Americans believe that pizza was invented in NY by Italian immigrants at the turn of the last century. I kid you not! Just look at the pizza thread in the food forum. It came from a mod of all people. It was priceless

From Wiki.... (I found that Wiki had a great piece on the 'History of Pizza' and I really don't know what to believe since I was not born yet and there, were you?):

"Some people believe that pizza was an evolution of the Chinese green onion pancake, brought back to Italy by Marco Polo."

[Sarge]

Me: For that matter, what percentage of Thai home cooks in Thailand do you figure make their own curry pastes from scratch?

You:

Thais do cook from scratch, they, unlike Anglo-Saxon people, value their food and shop daily. Curries are not cooked daily, in most provinces of Thailand

Thanks for correcting a "myth" that I had that real Italian mamas simmer their from scratch tomato sauce for hours. It is refreshing to have long held beliefs challenged by an expert.

The Thai thing I still think you have wrong. I specifically said PASTES. Do you know how many ground spices go into making a green curry PASTE from scratch? I bet you most Thai home cooks in this modern age (you can buy these pre-made fresh PASTES in markets) and even restaurants do not make their own CURRY PASTES from scratch. That is a different thing than cooking the curry using the paste.

I am on your side and if I like the taste of your sauces I will surely be a loyal customer, so good luck with your sauces ...

Thai curry pastes (pre-made and ready to use) for sale in a local Thai market

man, it's clear that you're out of your depth on this subject; spouting stereotypes (...real Italian mamas simmer their from scratch tomato sauce for hours...) and commenting on things you know next to nothing about.

They way you phrased your comment about many Thais cooking home, with a final reference to curry paste. it was and still is a sweeping statement (coupled now with Italian mamma ....) that shows you have little interaction with people and their cuisine, both Italian & Thais. Now you back pedalling putting all the emphasis on curry only because you feel on a safer ground. To the point of changing, editing your post a few times (where's the sceptical comment gone?) and adding a photo to cement your argument.

Of course curry pastes are sold in shops in Thailand, as ready made pasta sauces are sold in Italian shops too. Both cultures have strong. definite cuisine and culinary culture, they do cook from scratch virtually all the meals prepared at home. It may be a surprise to you but there is a lot more than pasta sauce or curry in Italian & Thai cuisine. Again in case you missed the point, curries are not cooked daily, in most provinces of Thailand as well as Ragu' (not Bolognese) is cooked daily in Italy. It's done occasionally because of the labour intensive process (both the Ragu' and the Curry), but most people do it from scratch as it's a lot more rewarding. So in essence, yes Thais & Italian (not only mamma, just as many papa' cook at home) do cook from scratch as the average day meal is prepared in 30 mins or so time frame.

It's clear that you're from a country that doesn't value food much and resort to prepared pasteurised, canned sauces and frozen burger and chips for their daily protein intake. Do you also buy pre-boiled pasta too?

[Jingthing]

You aren't worth replying to anymore than this limited response because you have some kind of personal attack agenda against me for no good reason. I grew up believing real Italian cooks when cooking their tomato sauces simmered them for hours. Did I ever say I thought all Italian cooking was about pasta sauce? No. Have I been to Italy? Yes. My Thai comments were ALWAYS about the paste. I compared the Thai curry paste to Italian pasta sauce because I think they are a fair comparison. Did I ever say Thai cooking is only about curries? No. Of course I didn't. As a matter of fact I am a dedicated foodie and home cook and I come from a culture that loves and values good food and cooking: urban, sophisticated America. And no I don't always make everything from scratch, some things I do, some things I don't, based on time, expense, and convenience. And spare your rebuttal, I am finished with you.

BTW: I got you, Sarge, confused with the owner of the new pasta sauce company. I am very sorry for that error. Good day.

Edited October 29, 2008 by Jingthing

[Sarge]

You aren't worth replying to anymore than this limited response because you have some kind of personal attack agenda against me for no good reason. I grew up believing real Italian cooks when cooking their tomato sauces simmered them for hours. Did I ever say I thought all Italian cooking was about pasta sauce? No. Have I been to Italy? Yes. My Thai comments were ALWAYS about the paste. I compared the Thai curry paste to Italian pasta sauce because I think they are a fair comparison. Did I ever say Thai cooking is only about curries? No. Of course I didn't. As a matter of fact I am a dedicated foodie and home cook and I come from a culture that loves and values good food and cooking: urban, sophisticated America. And no I don't always make everything from scratch, some things I do, some things I don't, based on time, expense, and convenience. And spare your rebuttal, I am finished with you.

BTW: I got you, Sarge, confused with the owner of the new pasta sauce company. I am very sorry for that error. Good day.

This post has been edited by Jingthing: Today, 2008-10-30 01:55:33

classic

[Buckwheat]

This is the Western FOOD Forum...the only flaming done here is on char broiled steaks.

Please refrain from inciting each other and stick with the topic at hand...Nana Pasta Sauce.

(Had the mushroom sauce tonight Kirk.....fabulous!)

[cathyy]

Chefheat, we will be trying this as soon as we can track it down. Do you know if that would that be Klang Plaza 1 or Klang Plaza 2 in Korat? I have not been making several recipes that I like due to the cost of the imported pasta sauce. If your sauce meets with approval (and I expect it will) I will be a happy camper. Hmm, if I combine this new sauce with farmer's cheese made from homemade drained yogurt I might be able to get a decent lasagne...

[NanaFoods]

regarding Amatriciana ingredients: yes, pecorino romano would be more appropriate ...and we may switch to that given I can locate a good supply.

Have you had a look at the Amatriciana by well-established Italian brand, Agnesi?

They use bacon as well - and no cheese. Extremely sweet; I couldn't even finish my home taste-test portion, but I imagine Thais might like it that way.

There is another one from New Zealand, Leggo's... they didn't even get the name right, "Matriciana".

To borrow your word: Classic ...since the city the formulation originated from is Amatrice.

Italian tomatoes grown in the southern regions are harvested before they reach the optimal sugary level, due to pressing commercial reasons. Also the soil and climate is rather dry. Hence you have a tomato that has high level of acidity. That is why prompting some people to add sugar during home cooking. Yes the ph is a constant concern, to tomato growers when they can it. But the different texture, acidity & sugar level and water content between the two fresh tomatoes does make a difference.

Yes, I know the std commercial practice is to pick tomatoes green, and they ripen on the way to market.

We made the mistake of using those with our first test batches.

This is why we currently get all our tomatoes from the north, and they are special ordered from the farmer to ensure they are vine-ripened. We had to work out special logistics as well to get them in good time for production.

Btw, still not sure about the derivation of the word Nana. In Italian language grandma is Nonna.

If you look at all the on-line translators, yes, it replies "Nonna".

However, that's the way it's been in my family ("Nana"), and I can find other references on the internet - such as here for example: http://marcdoni.com/enamel-charms-c7/nana-...charm-p286.html

I am not sure of the origins, but perhaps it might be a dialect thing?

Or an Italian-American thing?

I think maybe there is an opportunity to pitch your products to a different level from the mass producers. You''ll never be able to compete with them so why not offering a boutique range, given that you have a great family cooking background, of premium sauces that depart from the usual Bolognese, Amatriciana etc... Thailand is a virgin market for this type of products, rich locals are as snobbish and fashion conscious as you can get anywhere in the world. Emporium food hall is a great place to be in.

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, I have thought about ultra high-end offerings, but some ingredients are difficult to get in Thailand and very expensive - custom importing is another issue that would require us getting an import a license. Another issue is high-end packaging, custom jars/lids and their molds, high-end label design, etc.... A bit over my budget at the moment.

as you look into it harder you'll be more attracted to the FS model. Once you get past the initial capital outlay, you'll get higher return in the long term, less expenditure and marketing commitments. and then horizon will widen once you tap in the private label channel

This is true... but capital outlay... aye, there's the rub.

Edited October 30, 2008 by ChefHeat

[NanaFoods]

Chefheat, we will be trying this as soon as we can track it down. Do you know if that would that be Klang Plaza 1 or Klang Plaza 2 in Korat?

I believe you should find our sauce at both locations.

I have not been making several recipes that I like due to the cost of the imported pasta sauce. If your sauce meets with approval (and I expect it will) I will be a happy camper. Hmm, if I combine this new sauce with farmer's cheese made from homemade drained yogurt I might be able to get a decent lasagne...

If you like olives in your lasagna, you might consider our Olive sauce, or just stick with Traditional, or even try Traditional on the inside and Olive on top, or vise versa.

You may need a few 360ml jars to make a whole lasagna. We have 720ml jar capability, but just not the market demand as of yet. We have some early adopters, but it seems the market in general is still in "test mode", as we are new, and so most prefer the 360ml size at the moment (which yields about to two servings of straight pasta topped with sauce).

Thanks, and cheers

[bonobo]

Are you a food critic by profession?

 I spent several years as a food critic, but more from a love of food and an ability and discipline to write rather than from a vast knowledge of cooking facts. I know what I like, and I can write about it.  (I realize you asked this of someone else.)

Yes, there are crappy restaurants all over the planet... including in Italy.

Granted, but in my humble opinion, the "crappy" restaurants in Italy are really not that bad, probably the best "crappy" restaurants in the world.  I even spent 3 months with the Italian Lagunari (an army unit in Venice), and I really enjoyed the army cooking, to the great amusement of the Italian soldiers there.

Try the crappy restaurants in China or India.  You can't even choke down the food. Heck, try the crappy restaurants in France: lousy food, vinegar for the house wine. The worst restaurants in Thailand are OK, but I firmly believe that just about any restaurant in Italy, even the worst, can serve an edible meal.

... but if you market a sauce, like Amatriciana as typical Italian recipe than you should know it's made of pecorino (the Roman variety, rather than Sardinian) and not parmiggiano (or you're using grana instead?) and guanciale (Italian cured pork cheek) and not bacon, a cut from a different part of the pork that is rarely used in Italy.

That is good to know.  I have wondered why my attempts at Amatriciana have never panned out.  I have used American thick-cut bacon, and I have tried imported Italian bacon.  I guess I need to try guanciale to see if I can get it right.

Edited October 30, 2008 by bonobo

[Sarge]

regarding Amatriciana ingredients: yes, pecorino romano would be more appropriate ...and we may switch to that given I can locate a good supply.

Have you had a look at the Amatriciana by well-established Italian brand, Agnesi?

They use bacon as well - and no cheese. Extremely sweet; I couldn't even finish my home taste-test portion, but I imagine Thais might like it that way.

It was originated from a small town called Grisciano a few km away from Amatrice. You may not know but a couple of centuries ago (when your country was in its inception) it was called Gricia and had no tomato in it. I think Agnesi uses guanciale, they may wrongly translate it to bacon. Look at photo on the label, that’s a give away. However, I’ll check when I’m in BKK and talk to their Thai importer / distributor

There is another one from New Zealand, Leggo's... they didn't even get the name right, "Matriciana".

To borrow your word: Classic ...since the city the formulation originated from is Amatrice.

Precisely. That’s what I’ve been saying here so far. Every man and his dog jumping on the opportunity to cash in on Italian food & cuisine. Regarding Leggo, a brand competed against in OZ & NZ when I was based in Sydney. A sauce I wouldn’t feed my dog. It has a sizeable market share in that part of the world partly because is cheap and enjoyed a head start of not having competition (i.e. genuine products from Italy). They dropped a couple points in the market share (source: Nielsen Australia) in the time I was there. The company was founded in Vic (Australia) by Italian immigrants and carried forward by subsequent generations. It’s now owned by Simplot Australia, a subsidiary of JR Simplot Co. in USA

Yes, I know the std commercial practice is to pick tomatoes green, and they ripen on the way to market.

We made the mistake of using those with our first test batches.

This is why we currently get all our tomatoes from the north, and they are special ordered from the farmer to ensure they are vine-ripened. We had to work out special logistics as well to get them in good time for production.

I’m confused here, I thought you implied using Thai tomatoes. Do I take it to mean you that you purchase tomatoes from N. Italy or is actually N. Thailand?

If you look at all the on-line translators, yes, it replies "Nonna".

However, that's the way it's been in my family ("Nana"), and I can find other references on the internet - such as here for example: http://marcdoni.com/enamel-charms-c7/nana-...charm-p286.html

I am not sure of the origins, but perhaps it might be a dialect thing?

Or an Italian-American thing?

lol ... and are you using an online dic to find translation of grandma into Italian? For what is worth, nana has no formal meaning, in this context, in the Italian language. I’m extrapolating here, it may mean an unorthodox affectionate term used for a nanny, someone who takes care an infant or maybe used in a situation of your nonna Mary sweet talking to you when you were a toddler” “kirk fai il bravo, a nanna! (be a good boy, go to sleep)”

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, I have thought about ultra high-end offerings, but some ingredients are difficult to get in Thailand and very expensive - custom importing is another issue that would require us getting an import a license. Another issue is high-end packaging, custom jars/lids and their molds, high-end label design, etc.... A bit over my budget at the moment.

This is true... but capital outlay... aye, there's the rub.

there are other ways to do it and worth exploring, like outsourcing and or licensing the recipe to 3rd party manufacturers. I stop here otherwise I’ll have to invoice you for all these professional advices. Not to mention that all these posts are pushing the thread on top every time, for anyone to see. Which is what you’re really after. Marketing, marketing, marketing ......

[NanaFoods]

I think Agnesi uses guanciale, they may wrongly translate it to bacon. Look at photo on the label, that's a give away. However, I'll check when I'm in BKK and talk to their Thai importer / distributor

I don't normally trust front label photos... but it does say bacon on the back in English. Usually I look at the Italian ingredients if they are listed, but I don't recall seeing guanciale. I'll have another look next time I am in Bangkok as well.

Do I take it to mean you that you purchase tomatoes from N. Italy or is actually N. Thailand?

That would be N. Thailand.

If you look at all the on-line translators, yes, it replies "Nonna".

However, that's the way it's been in my family ("Nana"), and I can find other references on the internet - such as here for example: http://marcdoni.com/enamel-charms-c7/nana-...charm-p286.html

I am not sure of the origins, but perhaps it might be a dialect thing?

Or an Italian-American thing?

lol ... and are you using an online dic to find translation of grandma into Italian?

Not that I needed to, but I wanted to see if there were any dialect options.

Must you be so demeaning?

However, the word Nana keeps popping up with "grandmother", usually in Italian-American context it seems - predominantly East Coast. So I'm thinking there is something to it in an Italian-American context, which is not really related to the baby-talk for "nanny" that some Caucasians use.

As noted in above link, and here (Boston) http://photos.northofboston.com/gallery/61...389566884_QHSu3

and here (New Jersey): http://www.inmamaskitchen.com/FOOD_IS_ART/sicilian_nana.html

I was feverishly recording ingredients for Italian Easter bread, as my grandmother made the dough. "What's next nana?" I'd ask. And since she was a nana, she baked as nanas do - by eye, by feel, by instinct. "But nana, how big is "a shot glass full of oil?" I'd implore? And, "How do you measure "a handful" of flour?"....

Ah-ha, found something that hopefully might clear this up... it seems that the two spellings may actually be pronounced the same way, according to Yahoo:Answers

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...14233609AAsmycj

In Italian it is Nana but in English pronounced Nonna or I would say Nahnah and in the U.S. many spell it Nonna.

I think they may have their spellings reversed, but is that essentially correct? ... that Nonna is pronounced as Nön-nah (or nah-nah) as opposed to nō-nah ?

If so, then that explains it.

there are other ways to do it and worth exploring, like outsourcing and or licensing the recipe to 3rd party manufacturers. I stop here otherwise I'll have to invoice you for all these professional advices. Not to mention that all these posts are pushing the thread on top every time, for anyone to see. Which is what you're really after. Marketing, marketing, marketing ......

Actually I do know a bit about outsourcing (albeit not in the food industry) .... I worked in the semiconductor industry for 10-years... with an OEM in the US and with a subcon here in Thailand. At the moment I would be hard-pressed to trust anyone here (not a Thai anyway), especially in the food industry, to honor a confidentiality and non-competition agreement... and risk losing my IP (my recipes and process)... and then there is the Thai legal system...

And I do appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me.

At first I thought you might be a competitor phishing around... or something.

Edited October 31, 2008 by ChefHeat

[Sarge]

I don't normally trust front label photos... but it does say bacon on the back in English. Usually I look at the Italian ingredients if they are listed, but I don't recall seeing guanciale. I'll have another look next time I am in Bangkok as well.

If label is in English, as it should, I wouldn’t expect them to use the word guanciale. It’s either all English or Italian. There isn’t a straight conversion in English and that’s why manufacturers (wrongly) translate it into Bacon. I said look at the photo on the label because if you know what guanciale looks like then you know that this is the case. I’ll make a point to look for their sauce as well as yours. I’ll sample test your Amatriciana and if I find it worth the trouble, I’ll get 2 or 3 jars and take them with me in Europe and have them lab tested in greater details.

Not that I needed to, but I wanted to see if there were any dialect options.

Must you be so demeaning?

However, the word Nana keeps popping up with "grandmother", usually in Italian-American context it seems - predominantly East Coast. So I'm thinking there is something to it in an Italian-American context, which is not really related to the baby-talk for "nanny" that some Caucasians use.

As noted in above link, and here (Boston) http://photos.northofboston.com/gallery/61...389566884_QHSu3

and here (New Jersey): http://www.inmamaskitchen.com/FOOD_IS_ART/sicilian_nana.html

QUOTE

I was feverishly recording ingredients for Italian Easter bread, as my grandmother made the dough. "What's next nana?" I'd ask. And since she was a nana, she baked as nanas do - by eye, by feel, by instinct. "But nana, how big is "a shot glass full of oil?" I'd implore? And, "How do you measure "a handful" of flour?"....

Ah-ha, found something that hopefully might clear this up... it seems that the two spellings may actually be pronounced the same way, according to Yahoo:Answers

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...14233609AAsmycj

QUOTE

In Italian it is Nana but in English pronounced Nonna or I would say Nahnah and in the U.S. many spell it Nonna.

I think they may have their spellings reversed, but is that essentially correct? ... that Nonna is pronounced as Nön-nah (or nah-nah) as opposed to nō-nah ?

If so, then that explains it.

I can’t believe we’re having this conversation. One thing is to say: “look in my household in ........ [insert the country] my immigrants parents speak this dialect and cook this way” and another to say: “in Italian language nana means grandma, Pizza was invented in NY, authentic Italian Amatriciana is made of blah blah”. I don’t have a problem with the former but I say STOP at the latter. Because it’s not only blatantly untrue but also mislead people into believing it. Look at that yahoo link you provided , the posting there is pathetic, and said without any authority or knowledge. Unfortunately this is happening more and more, people with zero knowledge of Italy, it’s food, language, culture and history involuntarily spreading MUD (misinformation, uncertainty and doubt). If one wants to find out about something just go directly to the source and not rely on online chatters. Here’s a link to Garzanti, a well known and authoritative Italian publisher, its dictionary and thesaurus are widely used as reference tool at universities and high schools across Italy. It’s free to register and use, and it’s worth the effort

Actually I do know a bit about outsourcing (albeit not in the food industry) .... I worked in the semiconductor industry for 10-years... with an OEM in the US and with a subcon here in Thailand. At the moment I would be hard-pressed to trust anyone here (not a Thai anyway), especially in the food industry, to honor a confidentiality and non-competition agreement... and risk losing my IP (my recipes and process)... and then there is the Thai legal system...

And I do appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me.

At first I thought you might be a competitor phishing around... or something.

I hear your concern about outsourcing but I wouldn’t worry too much about the IP in this case. Also it could be done outside Thailand and with different temperature processes (i.e chilled and / or frozen), but as they say in Thailand: “up to you”

......and puff the thread goes back on top again

[NanaFoods]

I don't normally trust front label photos... but it does say bacon on the back in English. Usually I look at the Italian ingredients if they are listed, but I don't recall seeing guanciale. I'll have another look next time I am in Bangkok as well.

If label is in English, as it should, I wouldn't expect them to use the word guanciale. It's either all English or Italian. There isn't a straight conversion in English and that's why manufacturers (wrongly) translate it into Bacon. I said look at the photo on the label because if you know what guanciale looks like then you know that this is the case. I'll make a point to look for their sauce as well as yours. I'll sample test your Amatriciana and if I find it worth the trouble, I'll get 2 or 3 jars and take them with me in Europe and have them lab tested in greater details.

Interesting...If that's the case, I am curious how they get all the pork jowls? I mean, from a supply standpoint, there's only about, what, 3-4-lbs from 2 jowls per head or so, whereas I would understand them substituting pancetta for supply assurance (ave. pork belly is around 15-lbs or so).

I can't believe we're having this conversation. One thing is to say: "look in my household in ........ [insert the country] my immigrants parents speak this dialect and cook this way" and another to say: "in Italian language nana means grandma, Pizza was invented in NY, authentic Italian Amatriciana is made of blah blah". I don't have a problem with the former but I say STOP at the latter.

Don't get excited, now. I think you may have missed my main point, or perhaps it wasn't clear enough - that being that my family is not alone in the usage of "nana" amonst Italians born in AMERICA.

Anyway, I finally found an MP3 pronunciation on-line so I could actually hear it correctly. And it appears the Italian way is indeed more like "nō-nah".

I've been trying to study Italian on-line, but its quite difficult to sit down and concentrate with a new baby, work, etc... Thanks for the dictionary link, by the way.

Edit: I did find a meaning for "nana" in Italian, its a feminine form for "nano", meaning dwarf.

My Italian grandma was about 4'10 LOL

Fortunately, my grandfather was 6'2", so all the men in my family are about 6' even.

Edited October 31, 2008 by ChefHeat

[bkkjames]

Edit: I did find a meaning for "nana" in Italian, its a feminine form for "nano", meaning dwarf.

My Italian grandma was about 4'10 LOL

Fortunately, my grandfather was 6'2", so all the men in my family are about 6' even.

I found the meaning of Nana in Thai, its a place where the feminine forms called joy, luck, lek, noi... dance.

[ColinChapman]

Just tried the sauce with olives - delicious, by far the nicest sauce I've ever had out of a bottle, and very reasonably priced. You can really taste the olives and the tomatos. My wife also enjoyed it, it took us back to our holiday in Italy earlier this year. We shall be trying the other flavours soon.

Regarding "nana", it's a common (widely used, not low class!) term for grandmother in the east midlands / north-east England where I come from. Usually spelt "nanna" I believe. It's always amused me, as it makes me think that Nana Plaza should be full of bijou teashops and little shops selling knitting wool, and maybe a post office for collecting your pension.