Sponsor: Nana Pasta Sauce

[Sarge]

Its like when designing a movie poster, focus on the star of the show

you want to visually raise the possible buyers appetite, get his juices flowing .....

..... a raw pepper does not quite accomplish that, but a picture of a perfectly cooked and presented meal does

You are selling a finished sauce and not vegetables !

not quite like that John, while you're right in your opening shot, in saying that Kirk should concentrate on the main ingredients only (as I said in a previous post), your final conclusion misses the whole point. He's in a different market than you. He ain't selling prepared meals, finished and ready to be eaten (some prior re-heating them), in which case your assumption may be correct. He's selling an aid to a home cooked meal, something that can be manipulated and augmented with other ingredients and will need to be paired up with a major companion, either pasta or meats. Also as he mainly produce tomato based sauces, it's a given that people know what a tomato sauce looks like, regardless of the ingredients used. So he only needs main ingredients to be represented (tomato & bacon or Tomato & Artichokes and so on), and do away with condiments (olive oil) herbs & spices (garlic, coriander etc..).

There are a number of things he really ought to change and some other to refine in the latest shown labels that goes beyond the point you're making. Some of them he has no control on, like text but some others he can. Moreover, I'm not sure if Kirk has approached heads of procurement at major retailers (where his products are sold) to get a feedback on proposed new labels, he if he hasn't yet, he should do it before he goes to print. He may have complications later down the road.

[NanaFoods]

Coriander? We don't use any coriander.

RE the olive oil - I am not dismissing your argument, but please let me explain my reasoning for showing it, and feel free to come back on that issue if you like:

Olive oil may be a "given" in Europe, but the reason I put it on the label is that olive oil is becoming more and more popular here in Thailand (and I suspect all over Asia). You can even find olive oil at Lotus in Thailand (where mostly Thais shop - even here in Chainat, where about 3 farang live). And there are several local pasta sauces and the American mass-marketed sauces that don't use it. I also noticed Barilla and Agnesi show it on some of their labels. So I felt it necessary to show it as a statement of quality and authenticity.

I'll work on un-crowding the all'Ortolano label. Maybe I can try to clean-up the Sugo Rosa label...but I really don't see much wrong with the others - unless you can suggest a better way to represent the ricotta.

Actually, one of our largest retailers suggested the black motif. There were a few other suggestions, but after doing some trial designs, I became partial to the black motif suggestion - and it worked wonderfully with our black lids.

Edited December 14, 2008 by ChefHeat

[Smithson]

I haven't read all of this thread, but it's length shows there's a good amount of interest in your product. Well done for trying something different, I wish you luck.

Are you growing your own Roma tomatoes? I haven't seen these available here.

Have you considered doing the recipes in Thai also? Western food is generally thought of as bland by most Thais, with Italian being the exception. Most Thais I speak to love Italian food.

Many Thais love to cook, so I'm sure they would be interested. There's also plenty of farang who may buy your sauces, although it will be their Thai partners who do the cooking. Having the translations done shouldn't be too costly.

Have you considered selling to Carefour? They have quite a decent range of breads and other western foods, (just an idea).

Edited December 17, 2008 by Smithson

[NanaFoods]

I haven't read all of this thread, but it's length shows there's a good amount of interest in your product. Well done for trying something different, I wish you luck.

Are you growing your own Roma tomatoes? I haven't seen these available here.

Have you considered doing the recipes in Thai also? Western food is generally thought of as bland by most Thais, with Italian being the exception. Most Thais I speak to love Italian food.

Many Thais love to cook, so I'm sure they would be interested. There's also plenty of farang who may buy your sauces, although it will be their Thai partners who do the cooking. Having the translations done shouldn't be too costly.

Have you considered selling to Carefour? They have quite a decent range of breads and other western foods, (just an idea).

Roma is a specific variety of plum tomato. In a bottled sauce, one must add an acidifier to Romas, such as citric acid, to take the pH down to a safe level. We use vine-ripened plum tomatoes grown in the north of Thailand. Given the pH contraints of a bottled sauce, they work out just fine and our end product has essentially the same pH as you would find in the imported Italian brands.

We have considered Carrefour, and even have an upper management reference from a French man with connections who lives in the next town. But its basically the same story as with Foodland -- very high "new vendor fee" compared to their number of outlets. Perhaps later on when we are more well established.

[Smithson]

What about some of the recipes in Thai as well as English? The only thing that would stop me from buying the sauces is having to explain the recipes to my Mrs.

[NanaFoods]

What about some of the recipes in Thai as well as English? The only thing that would stop me from buying the sauces is having to explain the recipes to my Mrs.

Have you visited our website? (click the yellow banner at the top of this thread)

We have recipes in Thai.

Just click the "paasaa Thai" button and let your wife navigate to the recipe page.

We don't yet have all the recipes translated, but there are many to start with...

EDIT:

Here are a few easy examples I might suggest her starting with:

Chicken Calabrese:

http://www.nanaproducts.th.gs/web-n/anapro...B5%E0%B8%8B.pdf

Chicken Parmigiana:

http://www.nanaproducts.th.gs/web-n/anapro...99%E0%B8%B2.pdf

Spaghetti with Meatballs

(you can also use the leftover meatballs with sauce to make a nice meatball sandwich the next day):

http://www.nanaproducts.th.gs/web-n/anapro...AD%E0%B8%A5.pdf

Please let me know how it goes

Edited December 17, 2008 by ChefHeat

[Smithson]

Cheers, I've just printed off the Calabrese, she's a mad cook so I'm sure it'll work out nicely. We both work 6 days, so it may be a while before I can give you feedback.

[Jingthing]

A minor nit on your product placement at Pattaya Villa.

You are basically down at the bottom, on the floor. You have to squat to look at the product labels. Did you get a lower price on product placement or are they sticking you there because you have the lowest priced (presumably) lower profit sauces? You would help sales a lot if you could move the product UP!

I think its kind of lousy for you to be on the floor. You have a very good product, well priced, and made in Thailand obviously providing Thai jobs. You should be FEATURED not down in the pits.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

Even I bought a jar of your pasta sauce this week. It is the first packaged pasta sauce I have bought EVER, and I'm not particularly fond of tomato based sauces either (with family coming from the north of Italy). That said, I like your approach to customer feedback and you've had some very positive testimonials here. I'm sure if I add a few things it will be delicious.

BTW, Rimping supermarket in Chiang Mai had it placed at floor level, bottom shelf. If I hadn't gone there actually looking for it specifically I probably would not have seen it.

PS: I think the jar is a little too small.

[NanaFoods]

Even I bought a jar of your pasta sauce this week. It is the first packaged pasta sauce I have bought EVER, and I'm not particularly fond of tomato based sauces either (with family coming from the north of Italy). That said, I like your approach to customer feedback and you've had some very positive testimonials here. I'm sure if I add a few things it will be delicious.

BTW, Rimping supermarket in Chiang Mai had it placed at floor level, bottom shelf. If I hadn't gone there actually looking for it specifically I probably would not have seen it.

I hope you can come back with some positive feedback as well.

..and...

Thanks for alerting us to the shelf placement at Rimping.

Sales have been picking up there, so perhaps we may now have the clout to ask for better space.

PS: I think the jar is a little too small.

You must really like pasta or your significant other really likes Italian food

Seriously, though, yes it is slightly smaller than international standards, but here in Thailand, it seems most feedback I get is that the size is adequate for two - from both Thais and Farang -- as farang usually have a Thai mate they are eating with, who normally would eat a smaller portion, if at all. But I'll keep an ear open if we get more feedback as you provided. Thanks for your input.

[lannarebirth]

Even I bought a jar of your pasta sauce this week. It is the first packaged pasta sauce I have bought EVER, and I'm not particularly fond of tomato based sauces either (with family coming from the north of Italy). That said, I like your approach to customer feedback and you've had some very positive testimonials here. I'm sure if I add a few things it will be delicious.

BTW, Rimping supermarket in Chiang Mai had it placed at floor level, bottom shelf. If I hadn't gone there actually looking for it specifically I probably would not have seen it.

I hope you can come back with some positive feedback as well.

..and...

Thanks for alerting us to the shelf placement at Rimping.

Sales have been picking up there, so perhaps we may now have the clout to ask for better space.

PS: I think the jar is a little too small.

You must really like pasta or your significant other really likes Italian food

Seriously, though, yes it is slightly smaller than international standards, but here in Thailand, it seems most feedback I get is that the size is adequate for two - from both Thais and Farang -- as farang usually have a Thai mate they are eating with, who normally would eat a smaller portion, if at all. But I'll keep an ear open if we get more feedback as you provided. Thanks for your input.

Actually for red sauces I use very little, but my girls tend to really pile it on.

[Jingthing]

I have to admit I also think the size is too small. I also normally expect a jar or commercial pasta sauce to provide more than two servings. I am still happy with your products but the small size suggests you are cutting corners.

I think if you a formal survey of both your customers and those who have considered your products and didn't buy them, most would say the portion is too small. Not too small at all for two portions, rather, the expectation that the purchased products SHOULD provide MORE than two portions.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Jingthing

[NanaFoods]

Umm... well I think you both made your points.

Can we agree to call it over?

Jingthing, I'll add your size concerns to my ticker along with Lanna's.

Thanks for your feedback.

[Jingthing]

Umm... well I think you both made your points.

Can we agree to call it over?

Jingthing, I'll add your size concerns to my ticker along with Lanna's.

Thanks for your feedback.

Sure thing, ChefHeat, I hope it is over.

Keep cooking the sauces, I love 'em!

[Sarge]

ain't over; ok back on topic again. Let's assess standard Nana sauce v competition, not in term of taste or quality but rather price : quantity ratio and how much it costs per portion.

Nana 360g 80฿

Prego 420g 105฿

Agnesi 400g ...฿

Barilla 400g ...฿

Waitrose 360g 195฿

Others ...........

All standard sauces are marketed for 2 people, so once we have prices and sizes, it'll be easy to work out price per serve and see which brand gives you best value for money; we're not considering quality, specific taste, type of ingredients, density etc... otherwise we'll get into complex, geeky territory. Fill in the gaps, amend prices and sizes where applicable and add other brands too.

[endure]

ain't over; ok back on topic again. Let's assess standard Nana sauce v competition, not in term of taste or quality but rather price : quantity ratio and how much it costs per portion.

Correction - the flaming IS over.

[NanaFoods]

I believe Prego (Campbell's) in a jar around here is 400gm.

Nana 360g 80฿

Prego (jar) 400g 95 - 105฿

Agnesi 400g ...฿125 - 145 (180 for Amatriciana)

Barilla 400g ...฿ 125 - 145

Waitrose 360g 195฿

Others ...........

[Jingthing]

Agnesi has always been on special cheaper than that at Friendship Market Pattaya. I can see the gram difference isn't much. As a consumer, perception matters also. The bottle looks bigger and I have always gotten more than two servings from Agnesi, while with the smaller sized bottle from Nana, my perception is that it is good for two (generous) sized portions. However, this has given you an opportunity to objectively make a case that you provide a good value which you do, objectively. However, in real life, on the shelf, consumers mostly don't do scientific studies, they make gut level decisions based on superficial clues.

I think comparing to Agnesi is the most appropriate. A brand like Waitrose is probably not a mass selling product in Thailand based on price. Agnesi is. I think you want to be the mass market brand in Thailand, bigger than Agnesi here, and I think you have that potential.

That said, I want to apologize (again) for the poor choice of words: cut corners. That does imply cutting on quality and that is not the meaning I intended to convey. I meant offering a smaller size to make is possible to offer a lower price. Of course, if you matched Agnesi's size and significantly raised the price, that wouldn't be so hot from a consumer point of view either.

Overall, I am trying to be helpful. I feel supportive towards this business and would love to see it thrive and I look forward to trying your new varieties. I have never before seen a commercial artichoke sauce and you deserve kudos for being bold with new options.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Jingthing

[NanaFoods]

Agnesi has always been on special cheaper than that at Friendship Market Pattaya. I can see the gram difference isn't much. As a consumer, perception matters also. The bottle looks bigger and I have always gotten more than two servings from Agnesi, while with the smaller sized bottle from Nana, my perception is that it is good for two (generous) sized portions. However, this has given you an opportunity to objectively make a case that you provide a good value which you do, objectively. However, in real life, on the shelf, consumers mostly don't do scientific studies, they make gut level decisions based on superficial clues.

I think comparing to Agnesi is the most appropriate. A brand like Waitrose is probably not a mass selling product in Thailand based on price. Agnesi is. I think you want to be the mass market brand in Thailand, bigger than Agnesi here, and I think you have that potential.

That said, I want to apologize (again) for the poor choice of words: cut corners. That does imply cutting on quality and that is not the meaning I intended to convey. I meant offering a smaller size to make is possible to offer a lower price. Of course, if you matched Agnesi's size and significantly raised the price, that wouldn't be so hot from a consumer point of view either.

Overall, I am trying to be helpful. I feel supportive towards this business and would love to see it thrive and I look forward to trying your new varieties. I have never before seen a commercial artichoke sauce and you deserve kudos for being bold with new options.

We actually started out testing the market with 480ml jars. We received quite a bit of feedback (many more than two voices) that suggested the jars were too big and leftover sauce was felt to be "wasted" (perception: wasted sauce = wasted money), beside the jars being a bit unattractive. So we searched and searched, and the best open-mold fit we could find was the 360ml jar.

I noticed Waitrose uses this size in Asia (albeit in a custom squatty-curvy jar), and 360ml seems just right for two servings per our experiments, with essentially no leftovers that could be perceived to be "wasted". The demogrphics here in Thailand also suggest it is adequate for two people (as described in my previous post). The 360ml jar also appears more attractive than the 480ml. So I felt it was acceptable to switch to that size. We were also able to lower the price as a result. Our sales are much better than before as well, particularly upcountry (where most middle- to upper-eschalon Thais are the majority customers), but in Bangkok and Chiangmai as well, where we are in farang-targeted stores.

Another thing is that an open-mold 400ml jar doesn't exist in Thailand. We would need to buy and fabricate a custom mold - that's big money for us. Plus the cost per jar would likely be more than what we are paying as well, as we would be the only customer for that mold (being proprietary and not open-mold). If our market acceptance and volume increases, then perhaps in the future we can consider and justify it, provided we continue to hear from more people that they would like a 400gm/ml size. Thus far, you and Lanna are the only two voices that I have heard that suggest the 360ml jars are too small.

And yes, a size increase coupled with the cost of a custom jar would definitely affect price, but (given enough volume) I'm sure we could still beat the imports by an acceptable margin. The most necessary component that would make any of this at all possible, naturally, is volume.

I am not saying your are wrong by any measure - your perception is your perception and there is nothing wrong with that. So I thank you for being honest. And perhaps now that you two have opened up the topic, maybe others might come forward if they feel the same way.

Edited December 21, 2008 by ChefHeat

[Jingthing]

ChefHeat,

great response.

Three points though:

I think you are assuming that people always use the jar once and fully when that is not true at all. Many people open a jar, use what they need, and put in the fridge. Hardly wasted. Which brings up a question, what is the shelf life of a refrigerated jar once opened? I would think a few weeks, yes?

Some people stretch the jars, using tomato paste, other ingredients, or just use less sauce for dietary/taste reasons.

I think you are fooling yourself if you think comments here pro or co represent any kind of scientific market study or accurate survey of the potential market out there. The vast majority of shoppers in Thailand have never bought your sauce, never even viewed your sauce.

I like the flavor of your products and find value in them, so I am now a loyal customer. But to get loyal customers, first you have to get people to taste the products. All I am saying is that you may be losing some of these with the smaller bottle. Its just a guess but my guess is that your biggest pool of potential loyal customers are current Agnesi users. Obviously, this is your business decision and I wish you great success whatever direction you go with it.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Jingthing

[NanaFoods]

The vast majority of the feedback we get is from our demo booths, not from TV forum or even email, although the feedback here as been very valuable and certainly good to know.

Yes, because tomato-based pasta sauces are low pH products, they can keep in the fridge for 10-days to a couple weeks. However, the perception according to feedback from our demos with the 480ml jars was they felt it was wasteful (mostly Thais - maybe many Thais are not too familiar with the benefits of a fridge... Or perhaps they are just afraid of eating food more than a few days old, refrigeration or not -- or both). These are people who bought the sauce, went home and tried it, and then came back to tell us their thoughts. Our demos usually last 1 week... sometimes two.

I agree our packaging is need of upgrading, hence the new label design efforts. As for the bottle size: In our search for a new bottle when looking to change from 480ml, we did look...and look...and look... for the 400ml/gm size, but found it just wasn't available without a custom mold here in Thailand. Importing them was infeasible. However, it will certainly be a consideration in the future if we can justify it and afford to buy a mold.

Thanks for your concern.

Edited December 21, 2008 by ChefHeat

[Sarge]

I believe Prego (Campbell's) in a jar around here is 400gm.

Nana 360g 80฿

Prego (jar) 400g 95 - 105฿

Agnesi 400g ...฿125 - 145 (180 for Amatriciana)

Barilla 400g ...฿ 125 - 145

Waitrose 360g 195฿

Others ...........

CH, good rundown of competitors, it shows that Nana is considerably cheaper than the competition. The nearest priced competitor is Prego a good 18% dearer than Nana jar at a hypothetical 400g size sold for 89฿. All the other sauces are more expensive still. Yes, Nana's got the home advantage, no import duty and less onerous logistics but they do not have the industrial scale of the other competitors, meaning much more expensive supplies, smaller manufacturing processes, negligible marketing plans and weaker negotiation power with multiples. All that compared against foreign multinationals. Yet, they manage to produce (according to its customers) quality sauces close to the original recipe. This really puts to bed, once and for all, the lie that Nana is not providing good value for customers.

Consumers are aware of different sizes, we all are consumers as we all shop for groceries weekly, and we can instantly compare prices for pack sizes. So if food stores display Nana sauce next to Prego or any others, one can quickly work out which is the best value, even though sizes are slightly different. In terms of portions, all sauces above listed provide good two portions for main course pasta. The accepted norm is between 360g to 400g which, when you add cooked pasta (and no other ingredients), will result in a 720g / 800g pasta meal. This is more enough to feed two people, without even considering any other side dishes or drinks most people like to have with pasta. I can't understand why people ask / want larger sauces, unless they want to feed a family in which case the next logical step up would be a 760g size or thereabout. CH said he looked into a 480g sauce and quite wisely decided it was "wasteful"; a jar of that size would give almost 1kg of cooked pasta meal, meaning 500g (half kilo) per person. You need to have a stomach of an elephant to accommodate that much amount in one sitting. So again, this shows Nana sauce is a good size, and doesn't cut corners with consumers.

CH already answered, in a previous post, how long one should keep an opened sauce in the fridge, but it's good it reminded us again. Adding tomato paste to a commercial ready made sauce? good grief not! unless one wants a sauce the consistency of cement, these sauces are "engineered" to have the right density and viscosity right off the bat (in fact all of them already have a percentage of concentrated tomato paste in it). What one might want to do (optional) is to add a fresh, chopped tomato to enhance flavour, in addition to other live ingredients (fresh vegs, meats, fish etc..) to further doctor the sauce.

Data analysis, focus groups, marketing researches worldwide show that pasta sauces are in the main bought by multiple households (more than one person living under the roof), therefore are consumed at one sitting. Sure, there is a small percentage of single households (one solitary person living alone), who'd benefit from half size (say 190g) but that would considerably increase manufacturing costs and has little appeal to producers. Finally if we talk about perceptions, smaller is beautiful. Look at many luxury items brands, not only about food, and you'll notice that slightly smaller and elegant packaging defines what's termed an upmarket, good quality product. This immediately catch the sensory attention of consumers, subconsciously associating that to quality and exclusivity. CH is moving toward that (right) direction with new labels, colours and lids.

[DP25]

Or perhaps they are just afraid of eating food more than a few days old, refrigeration or not -- or both

Only anecdotal evidence but in my experience this is the case. I've seen Thais throw out perfectly good food just because the exp date is a day or two away. Maybe this trait isn't universal though.

I'm perfectly fine with the current bottle size. The current size gets me enough sauce for about two meals, which for 80 baht is a pretty good deal. I honestly didn't even notice it was slightly smaller than other brands. Makes no difference, it's still cheaper and higher quality.

[NanaFoods]

Or perhaps they are just afraid of eating food more than a few days old, refrigeration or not -- or both

Only anecdotal evidence but in my experience this is the case. I've seen Thais throw out perfectly good food just because the exp date is a day or two away. Maybe this trait isn't universal though.

I'm perfectly fine with the current bottle size. The current size gets me enough sauce for about two meals, which for 80 baht is a pretty good deal. I honestly didn't even notice it was slightly smaller than other brands. Makes no difference, it's still cheaper and higher quality.

Thanks for your input on our bottle size, DP.

A note on refrigeration and Thais: my wife's sister owns a fridge, but still leaves dinner leftovers on her table overnight covered by a half-spherical bamboo insect cover, to be consumed the next day for breakfast. She keeps medicine in the fridge, which remains mostly empty. I've seen this all over in "up-country" Thailand. Seems its a centuries-old cultural habit.

[NanaFoods]

Wow....Thanks for the in depth consumer/market analysis, Sarge.

Very useful.

Finally if we talk about perceptions, smaller is beautiful.

I'd say this perception might be particularly true here in Asia - take all things Japanese for example (a market we would really love to penetrate, eventually).

Anyway, I will keep my ears open for feedback regarding bottle size, as in the future I think we could benefit our brand image with a custom curvy or slightly fancy jar shape - no matter what size the market desires.

[Smithson]

OK a bit of feedback.

Yesterday my wife cooked the parmigiana and it came out perfect. She said the recipe was easy to follow and was very happy with the result. She chose this because an oven wasn't needed. It's great that there are so many recipes in Thai, which is why I bought several bottles.

You don't seem to have a Putenesca recipe? This would be a great addition, as I'm sure the Thais would love it.

The Ploenchit Villa doesn't stock your products, so I had to go to Villa Phrompong.

I was wondering if you'd ever considered some kind of direct marketing where products could be mailed straight to customers? Maybe with a minimum order and recipe booklet. Just an idea, because I hate going to supermarkets.

[NanaFoods]

OK a bit of feedback.

Yesterday my wife cooked the parmigiana and it came out perfect. She said the recipe was easy to follow and was very happy with the result. She chose this because an oven wasn't needed. It's great that there are so many recipes in Thai, which is why I bought several bottles.

You don't seem to have a Putenesca recipe? This would be a great addition, as I'm sure the Thais would love it.

The Ploenchit Villa doesn't stock your products, so I had to go to Villa Phrompong.

I was wondering if you'd ever considered some kind of direct marketing where products could be mailed straight to customers? Maybe with a minimum order and recipe booklet. Just an idea, because I hate going to supermarkets.

I am very happy the recipe worked out with you and your wife, and that she found it easy to follow!!

Thanks for the Putanesca sauce idea... someone else mentioned Putanesca previously in this thread, but now that you have "second" the motion I think we can work on that, using the Olive sauce as a base.

Should be pretty easy to translate into Thai.

We've sent a few cases here and there directly to customers who live in the boondocks where we have no accounts. I am not sure that would be a good idea in Bangkok, as our major customers (Villa and Tops) might not be too happy about it should they find out.

Edited December 22, 2008 by ChefHeat

[Sarge]

re: refrigeration; when I cook pasta meals at home in Mahasarakham the leftover is kept in the kitchen cabinet in a large bowl (alongside other cooked Thai/Isaan leftovers) and then shared with neighbours the next day, a mid morning snack. They eat it cold, no re-heat. I keep saying to myself TIT

[cathyy]

My husband tried the artichoke sauce yesterday. He said it was "something special, worth the extra cost." Other than that, his favorite is the amatriciana. My favorite is the traditional. Anyway, we have made the switch, and Nana is our pasta sauce of choice. I rather like the size of the jar. I like a lot of sauce, while my husband likes a lot of pasta. One jar does nicely for us.

[NanaFoods]

My husband tried the artichoke sauce yesterday. He said it was "something special, worth the extra cost." Other than that, his favorite is the amatriciana. My favorite is the traditional. Anyway, we have made the switch, and Nana is our pasta sauce of choice. I rather like the size of the jar. I like a lot of sauce, while my husband likes a lot of pasta. One jar does nicely for us.

Cathy, thanks so much for your encouraging comments.

I am truly pleased that we can qualify to be your new brand of choice!!

And also thanks for providing your perception regarding our jar size.