The Poorest People

[Jingthing]

Is it possible that worrying about these things is what perpetuates their cluelessness?

Hmmm.

Or perhaps worrying about the worrying will cause the earth to explode?

[polecat]

When life is tough and money is tight, a little escapism can be attractive. By spending money on satellite TV, McDonald's, Lacoste T-shirts and the coolest fireworks instead of health insurance, fresh vegetables or good quality shoes it can feel like you are actually participating in the successful, capitalist, consumer-based society that presents itself through the TV, newspapers, billboards and the like, as opposed to being marginalised by it. Nothing weird about that. Nothing weird about the dad who brings home toys for the kids at Christmas when he can't pay the electric bill.

You might see the bigger picture Jaideeguy, or maybe you're lucky enough to have grown up without having to struggle, or maybe you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps. But I think it's understandable why someone would choose a pizza over boiled fish and rice.

[thesunset75]

When life is tough and money is tight, a little escapism can be attractive. By spending money on satellite TV, McDonald's, Lacoste T-shirts and the coolest fireworks instead of health insurance, fresh vegetables or good quality shoes it can feel like you are actually participating in the successful, capitalist, consumer-based society that presents itself through the TV, newspapers, billboards and the like, as opposed to being marginalised by it. Nothing weird about that. Nothing weird about the dad who brings home toys for the kids at Christmas when he can't pay the electric bill.

You might see the bigger picture Jaideeguy, or maybe you're lucky enough to have grown up without having to struggle, or maybe you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps. But I think it's understandable why someone would choose a pizza over boiled fish and rice.

Good one :-)

I am not rich or way far to be rich but manytimes those tempting things (cloths, shoes,bags) were came to me maybe once-twice a year so, i step back by eating simple food i cooked while my bf were eating junk with mayo but i still forcing him to eat more tomatoes or some vaggies each meal.

I did many times bought my son a present before I pay off all bills to make him happy.

If those poor people have kitchen like Jingthing says, they have to buy more stuff for a whole meal instead of one bag of food (wether junk or cheap) which is cost 10-30 Bath. But to cook a whole meal it cost more than 50 even its simple dishes, gas - electric - soap for dishes cost and take longer till you can eat.

Just to buy one bag of junk with alcohol for himself that would be a nice dinner for them.

My point is, poor can be happy the way they are with out any pitty from foriegners who wants to change things.

Cheers !

[RoyJones]

This is not something that only happens in asia, its a worlwide thing. People who are poor will generally drink and blow all there money on crap.

[jaideeguy]

Eitherway, I don't see that someone not having been raised to take care of money and spend wisely is reason enough to abandon compassion.

One of the most inteligent posts so far, guesthouse.......

FYI, I have not abandoned compassion, as I posted the OP after returning from a 'mercy $$ mission' to the wife's provence where poverty prevails and made my observations while there watching my donations go up in smoke, while adults got drunk and kids gobbled plastic junk food and threw the wrappers all over and no adults cleaning up. It seemed hopeless to me and an insult to my generosity and prompted me [out of frustration] to post the OP in the hopes of getting some answers.

I can see simple solutions to break the cycle of poverty....just a little work and dicipline to start with.

[njpski]

Tomorrow, in Melbourne, Australia, there is a horse race - Melbourne has a public holiday for the occasion.

Rich and poor will gamble, get drunk and eat muck.

The rich will waste their money on fish eggs, will pay an effective $50 per kilo for very ordinary chicken bits, and drink imported fizzy wine and burn tobacco leaves. Gamble $1000 after paying $3000 for his and hers clothing.

The poor will waste their money on chicken bits at $10 per kilo and drink fizzy beer and burn tobacco leaves. Gamble $100 after paying $300 for designer tracksuits.

Both sets will have hangovers.

I will be occupying the middle ground - drink local fizzy wine, eat $15 per kilo chicken bits, won't smoke and waste $20 punting and not buy any new clothes for the day. I too will have a hangover.

[Heng]

But I think it's understandable why someone would choose a pizza over boiled fish and rice.

Totally understandable. But not deserving of a pardon or compassion when they run out of money towards the end of the month because they used the funds that could have been used for an entire day or so worth of food for one single meal. Or the cost of home, car, or truck that they couldn't afford that could have been used for several terms of formal schooling, or startup stock for a push cart or open market stall type business, etc...

Edited November 3, 2008 by Heng

[Dakhar]

My grandfater was one of the smartest individuals I have ever known.

He was a janitor. But he did not waste his money on cigs, booze, gambling etc. He hunted, gardened and fished. In all respects he lived a good life. Had a warm home in the winter, lived in a safe neighborhood, and had the ability to retire.

He woud say, "Poor people, have poor ways." My grandfather did not, thus everyone of his children went on to get an education and are financially fit.

I think there are many types of "poor" people, some of which accept what their conditions are, and just live the lifestyle of poor ways. Others fight against the grind and eventually win. (maybe not in their lifetime)

[bendix]

Money can't be wasted. It can only be spent. Just because some people on here don't agree with others' lifestyle choices, doesnt make them inherently wrong; it makes them different.

One of the most common features of this board over the last few years has been a deluge of people telling other people how to spend their money. What gives them that right? We have bingobongo calling property owners idiots. We have jaideeguy chastising the poor (farang or Thai) who splurges his salary on junk food and alcohol. I similarly recall a guy on here calling me criminally irresponsible here two years ago for daring to spend 20,000 a month on eating out.

It's easy to attack the poor. But isnt it ironic that we politely avert our gaze at the millions of 'middle class' families (the relatively affluent in a global context) in the US, UK, Australia etc who have been living beyond their means for decades, replacing a savings ethic with an ever-frenzied pursuit of flat screen tvs, cars they can't afford, iPods and vacations financed on the never never.

[brahmburgers]

people share 98% of their genes with bonobos - who have sex to settle hassles - or to relieve stress - or just for the heck of it.

We share 23% of our genes with parsley, and we're closer related to fungi/mildew than to plants.

So who claims we're so evolved as a species to have much sense in spending money?

What is money? it's printed paper with a 'trust value' - If the trust fails, then the it becomes just printed paper - not much different than the reasons for the financial meltdown around the world: lack of trust (in banks, in credit, in politicians, etc).

Poorest among us very often spend their pittance stupidly. Part of the reason is they're among the easiest to exploit.

As mentioned earlier, they often buy junk food, which is more expensive and much less nutritional than fresh wholesome foods.

They buy expensive mobile phones and brand new motorcycles (on time) - because mass marketing dictates they should buy everything new at retail. They also buy in small quantities - which again adds to expense.

For example, take a group of 10 masseuses who word at the same place:

For starters, they're probably all single moms, and not one of the men who sired their babies is paying a satang for support (the babies are being brought up by grandparents). Each of the 10 masseuses is at the job site an average of 84 hours per week. They might make 100 to 200 baht in a good day. Each has about 15 bottles of vanity products - and each product is the smallest size available. No thought to saving a bit to buy a larger quantity, and therefore saving on price per unit. Even less thought to pooling resources with their fellow masseuses and buying a cost-saving quantity amount, and divvying it up fairly.

As for education: granted, they don't get much learning in school about how to save or how to spend money wisely - if they get to school at all. But there are simple things to learn while out in the world - and they often don't give a d@mn. Example: why do poorest people have trash strewn all over where they hang out? They don't need education to learn how to put stuff in a plastic bag and drop it in a trash bin. They don't need much education to learn not to burn plastic - or that metal doesn't burn, or that broken glass cuts bare feet. Some of those people are lazy-brained - to put it nicely. It stems from a 'give a sh!t attitude' bordering on depression. a self-perpetuating cycle.

Edited November 3, 2008 by brahmburgers

[Neeranam]

While there are of course exceptions the question being asked relates to behaviours of poor people, behaviours which are seen to perpetute poverty and while it might feel good to make a moral judgement on these behaviours, they are in truth learned, just like the behaviours that we might find morally acceptable.

A mistake many make is to believe that if the poor did not spend their money on fags, booze or whatever, that alone would be a path out of poverty - It would not. Attitudes and access to education, access to oportunity are far more important in helping people move out of poverty.

It might be argued that the reason why the poor spend the way they do (seeking instant gratification rather than the middle class model of delayed gratification) is because they, the poor, know too well where their lives are going.

Eitherway, I don't see that someone not having been raised to take care of money and spend wisely is reason enough to abandon compassion.

Well said Sir.

[PhilHarries]

It is very easy sat in your comfortable house, belly full of food, glass of wine by your side clattering out your disdain for the poor on an internet forum, but stop for a while and ask yourself this question:-

If you could wave a magic wand and instantly all the world's wealth would be spread absolutely evenly amongst all the world's population would you do it? Just how much of your comfortable lifestyle would you be prepared to give up?

Another question you might ask yourself is how would you like some old down and out criticising your waste of money on a car, or a computer, or those designer label clothes none of which are essential to life?

We all waste money to a degree, just because you can afford to waste it does not make it less of a waste. It takes less wasted money to make a poor person happy than a rich one.

[samuibeachcomber]

simple pleasures in life are the most enjoyable be it fire crackers,a drink in the evening,a cigarette even,a meal with friends and family,and thais of all socio economic background are no different,and we all do these things to excess sometimes,thais are no different.I remember the shear excitement of "guy fawkes night in the UK',but of course you can no longer do this for public safety reasons and because of the danger of the "sue mentality "that plagues society in the west.

In thailand i love watching the simple pleasures of the thais especially the enjoyment of social discourse at meal times,and their child like sense of humour.Am sure ive got away from original topic,apologies.

[RakJungTorlae]

Next door where getting pissed letting of fire crackers and small rockets and a had alot of junk food yesterday. Rock on!!! Rich people envy this crap trust me.!!

[bonobo]

people share 98% of their genes with bonobos - who have sex to settle hassles - or to relieve stress - or just for the heck of it.

Ah, it is good to see that someone understands bonobo dynamics!  

[Shotime]

Mai Pen Rai isn't a lifestyle to be pitied. They look at you (people with money or appear to have money), and think you're a goof. Worrying about tomorrow, saving money for the future, and other parts of the opposite can bring their own problems. Living for the moment isn't so bad.

I wouldn't lump all the different aspects of what is being discussed as indicative of "poor" people (buying firecrackers is the most ridiculous of all), and how they see life are not all to do with being poor. People who only see the day they're living in usually are happier than those caught up in the financial crisis we're presently in. By happy, I mean less stressed. They're more concerned with the roof over their head, and what's for dinner. Tomorrow usually has a way of taking care of itself. Community and family are more important to them than the bullshit we've been brought up to consider important.

If you're going to waste your time pitying others, maybe you should try pitying yourself.

[Maigo6]

If you're going to waste your time pitying others, maybe you should try pitying yourself.

I think the OP went to a Village, spent some money and was resentful that the locals had the audacity to try to enjoy themselves, maybe he would have preferred them to fall to their knees and worship him cos he has more money than some of them.

Then again, you can't come to Thailand and meet a poor girl half your age and expect her to have a rich family can you ?

Yeah, I know, ThaiVisa members in the main marry rich Thai women, but the majority of Farangs in Thailand don't.

Strange how anonymous internet forums have such a large percentage of Farang that have married wealthy Thai women from influential families.

[polecat]

How exactly are these poor people asking for pity anyway? It sounded like the folks in the OP's village were having a pretty good time, and the guy who threw his money around was miserable.

Oh, and to the poster who had the massage parlour analogy (single mums, beauty products etc): thank you, I haven't laughed so much in ages. Nothing like sweeping generalisations and middle-class scorn to lighten the mood.

[rafval]

Im amazed at the amount of yaba smoked in every poor household I have been to in BKK, I have no idea how they pay for it but the manufacturers must be making a fortune

[geriatrickid]

I feel that i am highly qualified to make that statement, having lived among the poorest in asia and seeing how much they waste. Alcoholics drinking their entire month's paychecks on a single night's drunk and only having enough money left to buy some plastic wrapped junk food for their hungry children. No pitty from me, except for the children that they breed that will grow up to be just like them.

apparently ignorance is bliss with you. You should remove the name "jaideeguy" from your name.

Smoking marijuana, snorting coke, shooting Methamphetamine while your children watch as they are starving for food in the metropolis like LA, Detroit and NY is different?

This happens all over the world not just in Asia. These people are missing something called opportunity and education, so blaming and condemning them because of they are a product of their environment is utterly pathetic.

With all due respect Misplaced, you might as well go bang your head against a wall for all the good it will do to attempt a rational approach with someone posting arrogant filth like that. Your answer is the obvious one and it will never be understood by those that harbour resentment, and envy. If I wanted to to be just as nasty, I could point out that my chequing account probably has more money in it than the poster's networth, that I have more diplomas than you can shake a stick at, but at the end of the day, if I were to say that I consider myself wealthy because I have my health , some decent friends a semi functional family (who's isn't dysfunctional ) we'd all have a chuckle.

I'm always amazed by those that pontificate over wealth and education but have no clue, as they have never experienced the life. I grew up with alot of wealthy educated kids. Some turned out ok and others became crooked bankers and junkies. One thing was certain: Their sh*t stank just as badly as that of an impoverished Issan farmer's.

[Neeranam]

If you're going to waste your time pitying others, maybe you should try pitying yourself.

Strange how anonymous internet forums have such a large percentage of Farang that have married wealthy Thai women from influential families.

I'm not annonymous, everyone knows my name

I saw a road-cleaner this morning eating a box of pringles - seemed a bit extravagant spending half her daily wage on a snack.

Then again I spent more than a days wages getting a bloody satellite dish today so I can waste time(which is more important than money) watching tv from lots of different countries.

I know to many people who waste too much time working so they don't waste time spending money. Often the less well-off Thais have it a lot more sussed than the 'rich' expats.

[BSJ]

I am not trying to be mean, but the reason the poor are poor in the first place is they have way to many children they can barely afford, so there is no extra cash to put into savings. And all the aid that is given by Governments and NGO's is never going to be enough. The poor are creating their own problem and I don't see why the 1st world should bust a nut to help people who should be solving their own problem in the first place.

[Moonrakers]

I am not trying to be mean, but the reason the poor are poor in the first place is they have way to many children they can barely afford, so there is no extra cash to put into savings. And all the aid that is given by Governments and NGO's is never going to be enough. The poor are creating their own problem and I don't see why the 1st world should bust a nut to help people who should be solving their own problem in the first place.

Good god man,

You may not be being mean but you sure as hel_l are being ignorant.

Has it not crossed your mind for one second that perhaps a lack of education and therefore opportunities could be a reason for their plight. The poor are creating their own problem? So it is the fault of the poor that they where not given proper schooling as youngsters and therefore wont be accepted into all but the lowest of jobs as adults?

But oh no, of course the above reason can have nothing to do with it. In fact the one and only reason that the poor are poor is because they have children, and should they decide not to have kids then the extra little bit of cash will propel them out of poverty.

Get real, us more fortunate folk have the luxury of an education and so why not make the most of it.

[polecat]

I am not trying to be mean, but the reason the poor are poor in the first place is they have way to many children they can barely afford, so there is no extra cash to put into savings. And all the aid that is given by Governments and NGO's is never going to be enough. The poor are creating their own problem and I don't see why the 1st world should bust a nut to help people who should be solving their own problem in the first place.

I agree. let's castrate the poor.

NO BUCKS MEANS NO NUTS! NO BUCKS MEANS NO NUTS! NO BUCKS MEANS NO NUTS!

Or we could limit them to one child per household. And if they break the rules, we could drown the extra kid!

After a generation or two, there would be no more poor people.

Excellent, we're getting somewhere now.

[Jingthing]

If everyone was rich and consuming like the rich, the life of the planet would be maybe 10 years. I do notice lots of stupid poor people doing self destructive things but to demonize the poor and blame them all for their circumstances when you haven't walked in their shoes, just sounds downright nasty. I don't doubt that there are free will things that some portion could do to improve their situation, but I also feel that a great number are born into such hopeless situations, environments, and poor educations that sniffing glue looks somewhat rational.

Edited November 3, 2008 by Jingthing

[dingdongrb]

My observations are that most of the fact that the poor are poor money managers. I've known and heard of many who make lifelong saleries of 20k+THB/mo and have nothing to show for it when retirment time comes. That is simply poor money management, especially when they drink and gamble. again...no pitty!!

I know folks who are in their 40s back in the USA, make as a couple well over 60k USD a year (or more), and are still renting the trailer they live in. In fact one of my long time acquaintances (who is in his mid 40s) lost his job as a journeyman making about $30/hr a few years back and had to move in with his parents.... I think that looking out for the future and saving for retirement (or rainy days) is a problem that many societies have, not just Asian.

[RoyJones]

I am not trying to be mean, but the reason the poor are poor in the first place is they have way to many children they can barely afford, so there is no extra cash to put into savings. And all the aid that is given by Governments and NGO's is never going to be enough. The poor are creating their own problem and I don't see why the 1st world should bust a nut to help people who should be solving their own problem in the first place.

lol

Are you serious man? I guess we should make is compulsary to tie tumes and do the snip if you earn less then a xxx amount.

lol your post is one of the funniest things I have ever read

[bonobo]

My observations are that most of the fact that the poor are poor money managers. I've known and heard of many who make lifelong saleries of 20k+THB/mo and have nothing to show for it when retirment time comes. That is simply poor money management, especially when they drink and gamble. again...no pitty!!

I know folks who are in their 40s back in the USA, make as a couple well over 60k USD a year (or more), and are still renting the trailer they live in. In fact one of my long time acquaintances (who is in his mid 40s) lost his job as a journeyman making about $30/hr a few years back and had to move in with his parents.... I think that looking out for the future and saving for retirement (or rainy days) is a problem that many societies have, not just Asian.

You can add me to that list.  I made an awful lot of money in the late 90's and early 2000's, but after thinking the gravy train was never going to end, and after cruises, emerald jewelry, trips to France and Italy just for dining vacations, running down to Rio for Carnival, nice cars, etc., I don't have a whole lot in the bank, stocks, or in real estate to show for it.  And I had the advantage of a good education and a father who taught me (or tried to teach me) to scrimp and save for the future. 

Saving for the future and living within your means is smart, and yes, we all should do it.  But it is human nature to spend what you have and live for today.  The poor in Thailand are no different would most likely resent anyone trying to tell them what to do with their money.

If you are one of the people who do save and live within your means, good on you. But I would hazard to guess that most people are not as disciplined. 

[bkkjames]

You can add me to that list. I made an awful lot of money in the late 90's and early 2000's, but after thinking the gravy train was never going to end, and after cruises, emerald jewelry, trips to France and Italy just for dining vacations, running down to Rio for Carnival, nice cars, etc., I don't have a whole lot in the bank, stocks, or in real estate to show for it. And I had the advantage of a good education and a father who taught me (or tried to teach me) to scrimp and save for the future.

Saving for the future and living within your means is smart, and yes, we all should do it. But it is human nature to spend what you have and live for today. The poor in Thailand are no different would most likely resent anyone trying to tell them what to do with their money.

If you are one of the people who do save and live within your means, good on you. But I would hazard to guess that most people are not as disciplined.

The part in bold is interesting. You pissed it all away and yet you say your education and upbringing should have allowed you to do the opposite.

But I did the same actually, trips to the moon, diamond encrusted baseball caps, hummers and humvies, so hard to be disciplined these days - rich or poor.

[njpski]

Im amazed at the amount of yaba smoked in every poor household I have been to in BKK, I have no idea how they pay for it but the manufacturers must be making a fortune

Im amazed at the amount of cocaine snorted in every rich household I have been to in BKK, I have no idea how they pay for it but the manufacturers must be making a fortune

I love see rash generalisations - they are so easy to poke excrement at