Rental Deposits Going One Way In Thailand

[Sheryl]

MODERATOR speaking now (as opposed to me as a poster):

I just finished deleting and editing out comments that crossed the line into Thai-bashing as well as a flame-fest that has apparently been going on for several days (you know who you are).

I was going to start by reciting the number of deletyions/edits I had to make but lost count along the way. If this was not such a useful and important topic otherwise I'd be shutting it down at this point.

Cease and desist. If you want to have a set-to, do it by PM or at a local bar.

Any further insults posted, by either party or anyone else for that matter, will result in immediate formal action.

[mikethevigoman]

We had an ex bar girl landlady, horrible, stole 28000 of our deposit for ficticous problems, amongst them air con unit servicing and paint touch up, i dont doubt its in ?"the small print "somewhere but i found it a con, funnily enough 3 months after we moved out the new tenant had a gas bottle explode doing 1 mill baht of damage, guess what, neither were insured and the new tenant tried to sue her for dodgy pipework, we were asked by the landlady to go to court to say we had no problems but took great delight in saying "get stuffed " !

[My Friend Same]

I always get a kick out of people suggesting simply not paying last month's rent, LOL. I've rented 5 condos in Bangkok and each and every contract stated that NO SECURITY DEPOSIT SHALL BE USED TO PAY RENT. Seemed pretty standard on all contracts I saw. well anyway I did try that on my 1st place and was met with a padlock on the door and all my belongings inside after I DIDN'T PAY MY LAST MONTH'S RENT. So I say lmao to advising this insane approach to trying to outsmart the landlord, as if he aint ready for mfers to pull that crap

[Shotime]

I always get a kick out of people suggesting simply not paying last month's rent, LOL. I've rented 5 condos in Bangkok and each and every contract stated that NO SECURITY DEPOSIT SHALL BE USED TO PAY RENT. Seemed pretty standard on all contracts I saw. well anyway I did try that on my 1st place and was met with a padlock on the door and all my belongings inside after I DIDN'T PAY MY LAST MONTH'S RENT. So I say lmao to advising this insane approach to trying to outsmart the landlord, as if he aint ready for mfers to pull that crap

That's what I thought. I didn't think that would work either.

"....we were asked by the landlady to go to court to say we had no problems but took great delight in saying "get stuffed " !" Occasionally, not often, we get the opportunity to get back. Beautiful story. Thanks.

[thaihome]

MODERATOR speaking now (as opposed to me as a poster):

I just finished deleting and editing out comments that crossed the line into Thai-bashing as well as a flame-fest that has apparently been going on for several days (you know who you are).

I was going to start by reciting the number of deletyions/edits I had to make but lost count along the way. If this was not such a useful and important topic otherwise I'd be shutting it down at this point.

Cease and desist. If you want to have a set-to, do it by PM or at a local bar.

Any further insults posted, by either party or anyone else for that matter, will result in immediate formal action.

You didn't delete the ones calling me an English teacher.

TH

[agord]

MODERATOR speaking now (as opposed to me as a poster):

I just finished deleting and editing out comments that crossed the line into Thai-bashing as well as a flame-fest that has apparently been going on for several days (you know who you are).

I was going to start by reciting the number of deletyions/edits I had to make but lost count along the way. If this was not such a useful and important topic otherwise I'd be shutting it down at this point.

Cease and desist. If you want to have a set-to, do it by PM or at a local bar.

Any further insults posted, by either party or anyone else for that matter, will result in immediate formal action.

You didn't delete the ones calling me an English teacher.

TH

could be a journalist or lounge singer?

[thaihome]

"These people" in this case is lierally these people (the landlords and agent)

TH- I'm in a senior position with one of Thailand's biggest companies so in a way I have been sheltered from this. There is no way in hel_l the people I do business with through work would for one minute think about trying to screw over the man I work for. Do you go through this type of thing every time you renew your English teaching contract? We are following the process and leaving it up to our attorney and the local govt. I know the chances are slim but let's play it out at this point it's become a little hobby for me. I'm well aware of your opinion on this and you will never understand why I'm willing to spend more than the deposit is worth to see these people pay up so let's just agree to disagree.

Not sure why you keep taking this to a personal level. You appear to be a new member, so I guess you can be excused for not being familiar with me. I do not go into specifics on an Internet forum, but I will say I work for a company that manages contracts for Thailand biggest company. The values of these contract over the past four years is some 2 billion USD. So, I have bit of experience in international business contracts. It is a safe statement to make that everyone takes every opportunity to put the screws to the other as much as they can, keeping with the letter of the contract of course.

That is exactly what your landlord did to you. When you moved in, did you do a complete inventory of the condition of the apt? Did you note each and every scratch, dent, and or other damage to the entire the place? Have they given you a accounting of the cost or repair for the damage you did? Did it have anything on it that was documented as pre-existing? So, how have they not followed the letter of the contract? Exactly what is your case that you should get the deposit back?

All I have be doing is expressing a personal philosophy on how deal with irritating situations over which I have no control. If it is worth it to you to spend more money then you lost trying to get personal satisfaction in order to keep your personal integrity intact, then go for it bud, that is your choice and in your perceived western superiority, it is probably the right thing to do. I was just pointing out, that there is little or no chance any good will come of it and your energy could be directed to much more personally beneficial things.

TH

[agord]

"These people" in this case is lierally these people (the landlords and agent)

TH- I'm in a senior position with one of Thailand's biggest companies so in a way I have been sheltered from this. There is no way in hel_l the people I do business with through work would for one minute think about trying to screw over the man I work for. Do you go through this type of thing every time you renew your English teaching contract? We are following the process and leaving it up to our attorney and the local govt. I know the chances are slim but let's play it out at this point it's become a little hobby for me. I'm well aware of your opinion on this and you will never understand why I'm willing to spend more than the deposit is worth to see these people pay up so let's just agree to disagree.

Not sure why you keep taking this to a personal level. You appear to be a new member, so I guess you can be excused for not being familiar with me. I do not go into specifics on an Internet forum, but I will say I work for a company that manages contracts for Thailand biggest company. The values of these contract over the past four years is some 2 billion USD. So, I have bit of experience in international business contracts. It is a safe statement to make that everyone takes every opportunity to put the screws to the other as much as they can, keeping with the letter of the contract of course.

That is exactly what your landlord did to you. When you moved in, did you do a complete inventory of the condition of the apt? Did you note each and every scratch, dent, and or other damage to the entire the place? Have they given you a accounting of the cost or repair for the damage you did? Did it have anything on it that was documented as pre-existing? So, how have they not followed the letter of the contract? Exactly what is your case that you should get the deposit back?

All I have be doing is expressing a personal philosophy on how deal with irritating situations over which I have no control. If it is worth it to you to spend more money then you lost trying to get personal satisfaction in order to keep your personal integrity intact, then go for it bud, that is your choice and in your perceived western superiority, it is probably the right thing to do. I was just pointing out, that there is little or no chance any good will come of it and your energy could be directed to much more personally beneficial things.

TH

TH man relax I'm joking with you mate I don't have anything personal against you. Do you have strong feelings against lounge singers? whew western superiority

Yes we did the whole inventory, read the fine print, etc. As stated I had been through this routine before and was concerned about beeing burned again. We were reassured by the agent time and time again - this is why I can't let it go man. It's the sick feeling of being lied to and treated like a sucker that's it! They gave us this list of defects and as I posted before they include 15,000 for plants supposedly chewed up by my 3 kg. Shi Tsu and a bill for repair of an air conditioner that went down during the last three months of our stay. Nothing in the contract stating this is our responsibilty in fact to the contrary. Can you understand the maddness of presenting someone with something so blatently in contradiction to the agreement and expecting to get away with it? Whatever you perceive me to be I'm no idiot and if there was any ambiguity or something I neglected to cover myself on with these people I would accept the loss and move on but that's not the case here and thus the reason for my motivation. I'm totally relaxed I can assure you it's not taking even 1% of my energy. I have enough to keep me occupied at Thailand's biggest company Central Group btw and could care less about posting it here as I'm kicking ass for them and they know it.

[thaihome]

Central group is indeed one of the biggest companies in Thailand. But Forbes did not list it in even the top 10 in Thailand. Maybe only some subsidiaries are listed companies. Nevertheless, I doubt it is bigger the at least the top 3 companies on Forbes list.

I do wonder how senior of a position you have living in a 15k apt? My housing allowance is 120k a month, plus 20k utilities and I'm not all that senior in our company.

I have to admit I was having a bit of fun with you as well. (and maybe still am )

TH

[agord]

Central group is indeed one of the biggest companies in Thailand. But Forbes did not list it in even the top 10 in Thailand. Maybe only some subsidiaries are listed companies. Nevertheless, I doubt it is bigger the at least the top 3 companies on Forbes list.

I do wonder how senior of a position you have living in a 15k apt? My housing allowance is 120k a month, plus 20k utilities and I'm not all that senior in our company.

I have to admit I was having a bit of fun with you as well. (and maybe still am )

TH

That's all right I think I did say originally one of the biggest companies anyway yeah they are big and a great company. It was a house for 19 that we negotiated down to 17 a month. Housing was left out of my contract for the reason that we want to buy a place and this is not allowed if they provide it. I now enjoy a longer holiday and a few other perks but not the topic here is it? I think the topic is what to do or better how to apropriately react when you cover your bases, they swear up and down on their children's eyes and you still get burned. i can't just sit back and have a cup of tea can I? Sure I'm going to press it. Anyway this should be my last post "I'm boring already" as they say. Enjoy your 120k penthouse in Bangkok it sounds nice. I gotta get off this island it's making me insane!!

[jrbkk64]

I think there is an important distinction we need to make between 2 types of landlords. The first type has one or a few places he rents out and genuinely does not have any cash provisions to return the deposit. Typically this type will silently take it if you do not pay the last one or two months rent. The second type is a more professional conman and more often than not the agent is involved as well. This type will never return any deposit, change locks when you don't pay, invent ridiculous bills, etc.).

I am living in my 6th rental house now and so far had one issue with the deposit, partly because the owner moved abroad during the contract and no way of contacting her. All other deposits have been paid back in full.

I think the best way to lower the risk is to try to figure out which type of landlord you are dealing with.

Please also consider that there are thousands of landlords/thai families who really live by the day in terms of cashflow. Most have mortgages, the all important car payments, several credit cards to pay, loan sharks to pay, etc., etc.

Once you live here for a while you start to see the fragility of the whole economy here, probably worse than the current situation in developed countries. The "grey" economy ( market vendors, food stall owners, etc.) keeps things going to an extend and offers many thais a way to sustain themselves.

Edited November 24, 2008 by jrbkk64

[JonnyF]

I'm on my 5th rental place now, most were as good as gold but one in Phuket Town did try to rip me off. I'd seen it coming and told them I wouldn't pay the last months rent, but I'd paid 2 months deposit so they still owed me a month and they tried to keep that.

I went to see them and threatened legal action, at which point they offered half of what they owed me. I refused to take the cash out of her hand and told her that I'd sue for the full amount. I calmly pointed out that I would do this even if it cost me more to sue her than she owed me. At this point (to my surprise!) she gave the full amount back.

If I was you I wouldn't let it lie, it will annoy you too much. It won't cost much to get a decent lawyer to write them a threatening letter and I'd be surpised if you didn't get the money back at this stage. If you still don't get it back then you can decide whether to proceed. Personally I would go all the way through the courts and I'd expect to win. Don't believe you will automatically lose because you are farang this just isn't the case and if you do lose at least you can say you didn't roll over.

Best of luck, I hate rip-off landlords but they'll rip off Thai just as quick as they'll rip off farang so don't get all bitter and paranoid!

[agord]

I'm on my 5th rental place now, most were as good as gold but one in Phuket Town did try to rip me off. I'd seen it coming and told them I wouldn't pay the last months rent, but I'd paid 2 months deposit so they still owed me a month and they tried to keep that.

I went to see them and threatened legal action, at which point they offered half of what they owed me. I refused to take the cash out of her hand and told her that I'd sue for the full amount. I calmly pointed out that I would do this even if it cost me more to sue her than she owed me. At this point (to my surprise!) she gave the full amount back.

If I was you I wouldn't let it lie, it will annoy you too much. It won't cost much to get a decent lawyer to write them a threatening letter and I'd be surpised if you didn't get the money back at this stage. If you still don't get it back then you can decide whether to proceed. Personally I would go all the way through the courts and I'd expect to win. Don't believe you will automatically lose because you are farang this just isn't the case and if you do lose at least you can say you didn't roll over.

Best of luck, I hate rip-off landlords but they'll rip off Thai just as quick as they'll rip off farang so don't get all bitter and paranoid!

Thanks for your post . So far I have only 3,000 in fees for the letter threatening legal action and for the lawyer to file a report with the local tax board. As another member was kind enough to point out they must pay 15% tax on the monthly rent and it doesn't look like they have done that so this will set them back 30,600 plus whatever penalties. Maybe next time they return the deposit?

[chiangmaibruce]

Agord, Have followed your story with interest. Good luck with getting some money back - or at least administering a life lesson to the folks in question. Keep us posted ok.

I know you are not about revenge (nor would i suggest it), but there might be something in the linked web site which might at least generate a chuckle or two while you are patiently waiting for the wheels of justice to turn.

http://www.student.uit.no/~paalde/revenge/TAH.html

Cheers

- CB

[Scott123]

That is also exactly what any New Yorker (NYC) would do. It's a given there that landlords will otherwsie find ways not to pay the deposit back (easily enough done by finding exagerated fault with normal wear and tear and then inflating the value of the supposed "damage) or at a minimum take their sweet time and require aggressive follow up by you to do it.

Granted real estate life in NYC is especially cut-throat, but still...this is not anything unique to Asia or Thailand.

.....

Did you pay one month or two month security deposit in NYC??

[Scott123]

I'm on my 5th rental place now, most were as good as gold but one in Phuket Town did try to rip me off. I'd seen it coming and told them I wouldn't pay the last months rent, but I'd paid 2 months deposit so they still owed me a month and they tried to keep that.

I went to see them and threatened legal action, at which point they offered half of what they owed me. I refused to take the cash out of her hand and told her that I'd sue for the full amount. I calmly pointed out that I would do this even if it cost me more to sue her than she owed me. At this point (to my surprise!) she gave the full amount back.

If I was you I wouldn't let it lie, it will annoy you too much. It won't cost much to get a decent lawyer to write them a threatening letter and I'd be surpised if you didn't get the money back at this stage. If you still don't get it back then you can decide whether to proceed. Personally I would go all the way through the courts and I'd expect to win. Don't believe you will automatically lose because you are farang this just isn't the case and if you do lose at least you can say you didn't roll over.

Best of luck, I hate rip-off landlords but they'll rip off Thai just as quick as they'll rip off farang so don't get all bitter and paranoid!

Thanks for your post . So far I have only 3,000 in fees for the letter threatening legal action and for the lawyer to file a report with the local tax board. As another member was kind enough to point out they must pay 15% tax on the monthly rent and it doesn't look like they have done that so this will set them back 30,600 plus whatever penalties. Maybe next time they return the deposit?

Amen.

[johnjohnson]

My lease ends in two months. I am thinking of not paying the last month or two. The owner has two months of my money, b 26,000. I have no way of getting of hold of her and have collection notices comming to the house in her name so I don't belive I will get my deposit back.

What are the chances she will have the locks changed. I live in a up-scale secure Moo-baan in Chiang Mai. I don't trust this lady and hate the idea of her gettng one baht she doesn't deserve.

[agord]

My lease ends in two months. I am thinking of not paying the last month or two. The owner has two months of my money, b 26,000. I have no way of getting of hold of her and have collection notices comming to the house in her name so I don't belive I will get my deposit back.

What are the chances she will have the locks changed. I live in a up-scale secure Moo-baan in Chiang Mai. I don't trust this lady and hate the idea of her gettng one baht she doesn't deserve.

Yeah doesn't look too promising. Can you change the locks first then she won't be able to get in without you there at least. Maybe just explain what you are doing and let her have a walk through to see you haven't damaged anything? Good luck!

[agord]

Just an update: Received a letter from the consumer protection office here in Phuket informing me of their investigation into the matter. I was happy to see some follow up from them even if nothing else comes from it.

[matlockscot]

We have been both a renter & a landlord so can perhaps give a perspective from both sides.

When I rented, the landlord returned the deposit in full 2 weeks after I moved out, no problems, no pettiness (even allowed for normal wear & tear).

As a landlord, we have had mixed experiences. In the first instance, our tenants had their deposit refunded in full. They invited us to inspect the house, with a month to go on their lease. It was in fair condition (again, allowing for some wear & tear) and we agreed that the easiest way to deal with things was for them to stay for an additional month without paying rent. They left us money to pay final utilities (based on their average use - we refunded a slight overpayment). This was in a house with a rental of around 100k so one month deposit seemed to provide a reasonable risk cover. All in all a pleasant experience for us both.

At our condo, it was a different story. The tenant (against the tenancy agreement) introduced 2 cats to the apartment (on the 14th floor!) which systematically destroyed the mosquito screens, the wallpaper, curtains and soft furnishings. They allowed a small leak to go unreported (we always provide a contact number for minor repairs we carry out without delay, usually at our own expense), this damaged the entire wooden flooring. We served notice on the tenant and have kept their one month's deposit (needless to say they didn't pay outstanding utilties, final month's rent etc). Now this is a small oen bedroom condo earning only 14k. The deposit we have doesn't go anywhere near the cost of putting the apartment back to a rentable condition.

My point is that as a landlord you need to balance the risk exposure to the potential impact. Where the tenant maintains a decent level of cleanliness and care to the property, then I agree there is no excuse for not returning a deposit. But a landlord needs to hold an appropriate level of deposit to cover those times where this is not the case. Sometimes, particularly in a lower rental place, this can necessarily be more than one month.

My advice to tenants is maintain a relationship with your landlord, particularly towards the end of an agreement. I'd also be suspect of renting from a landlord who doesn't provide you with a direct contact(whether through an agent or not).

Ramble over !

[Scott123]

When you think about it....the system here is actually heavily in favor of landlord.

Most of the places provide furniture and appliance (TV, refrig, aircon, stove, microwave, water heater...etc). And more often than not, these things are USED. If anything is out of service during your tenancy, you are out of luck, the landlord blames on you and keeps the deposit. You live in this place for one year or more, your chance of some old machines going out of service is quite high. I read somewhere that landlords even say air con is too dirty, so you have to pay to clean it, but was it clean before you move in? who knows.

Also, when the tenant comes to sign a contract, who makes the contract? either the landlord or the agent, never the tenant. All the clauses are for the purpose of protecting landlord. They ask you for a copy of passport? hey, why don't they give you a copy of their passport?

One can argue that in the U.S., you also sign landlord's contract, not tenant's contract. But there is standard contract that you can buy from the bookstore, and this type of contracts are usually quite fair. I was a landlord in the U.S. (california) before, my tenant moved out with only one day advance notice (contract required 30 day notice), he dared to send certified mail to me for security deposit refund. My lawyer actually suggested that I refund the deposit, he said the tenant's rights are heavily protected in california.

I guess the difference is not only the culture, but also legal system and people's concept/perception of it.

I now realize we should always ask for at least 10% discount when buying anything. People here know better, in the rental world, the deposit is to fill in that 10% differece. In other merchandise, the 10% is to get to what the real price is. This is the game that everybody (or most people) plays here.

And I was just too naive.

Agord: your landlord have your deposit. He can say anything is broken or scratched or dirty or whatever, and it would cost xyz baht to fix it, so you won't get your deposit back. What can your lawyer do? Sure I would hire a lawyer to harrass the landlord too, but I am afraid that is all we can do.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Scott123

[thaihome]

Yes, it is pretty much standard practice every where in the world for the contract form be provided by the owner. Nevertheless, you are allowed to negotiate the terms. If there is a clause you don’t like, ask to change it, if you can’t live with it, find another place. Standard contract negotiations.

When you move in, do a walk down with the owner or their representative. Make note of every single bit of damage. As I have said all along in the thread, most of what I have read that people think is landlord abuse, is just poor contract negotiation and management.

TH

[Sam125]

What are the Thai laws regarding having the electricity and water shut off by a landlord?

Are their escrow type services available for handeling large deposits?

[aussiebebe]

At the start of this thread, a poster 'Wonderboy' mentioned that landlords should pay tax on rentals and also reccomended not paying the final months of rent to cover the deposit - this is really useful information - does anyone know of a book or online resource covering this topic with all it's rules or is this thread on TV all there is?

[PeaceBlondie]

Speaking just as a member-poster,

We have already given our notice, talked with the landlady in person when she dropped by. I told her we would skip a month's rent. Our new home is coming along so fast, I will not pay for January. A discreet Thai discussion with the gardener reveals that my incredibly wealthy Thai landlady is notorious for not refunding deposits.

[khundon]

My wifes family rents a 4 bed, Teak villa style house in Hua Hin on the beach (between Hilton and Kings Palace) in a compound of 4 houses.

The owners from BKK were very rich, owned the whole compound and used a huge house in the compound for 1 night a week only.

They also own a lot of office and condo properties in BKK, (always fully booked) together with extensive business interests in Asia.

The rent in 2000, (which included a full time gardener and a night security guard for the compound) was 30,000 a month with no deposit required, (similar properties were renting for 90k a month) and has remained at 30,000 per house per month to this day.

We paid the costs of our 2 maids.

The owners were very friendly and we often went to their house for lunch or dinner and they would come into our beach front garden to use spirit house on their arrival from BKK.

They always bought presents for wifes family and me and we always gave them little things, like home made English cakes for their family.

In the compound was another teak villa which I did not want to rent as I prefered a more modern property. So they knocked it down and built a more contempory 4 bed house.

Whilst the building work was going on they insisted that we only pay half the 30,000 rent, for the 6 months that building work was going on, due to the noise/dust etc which never did affect us but they insisted.

Nothing was too much trouble and they fitted new house with all the mod cons that I helped choose from various European catalogs without batting an eyelid at the costs involved.

My wifes family now rent both properties and use them for weekends and short breaks away from BKK etc and are more than happy with them as landlords.

When one day I questioned the owners why they do not charge the going rate for these 2 houses, they replied "we want friends we can trust for neighbors, it is not just about money".

So there are some kind and honest Thai landlords out there if you can find them.

Edited January 5, 2009 by khundon

[Kf6vci]

I was the landlord of 30 units for years. You do have a moving in report?

While I have had my share of vandalism (concrete in the main sewer pipe, couldn't be snaked), hearing a LL wanting the plumbing upgraded at a tenant's expense is outrageous!

In future, you might withhold part of last month's rent to have an ace up your sleeve. But now, you have no time to mess about and hope for some government agency to clamp down on this scam. So what's a pragmatic way to tackle this?

Q: you have Thai friends who are bilingual? I would enlist the help of the Tourist Police! Reward them for their time, maybe have someone write a complaint in Thai.

Be prepared that there is no such thing as right so forget the notion of a full refund. But negotiate a better deal.

I would also report the 3 landlords who already fleeced you unashamedly. To help the next farang.

Glad to hear you are sticking to your guns!

Good luck,

Chris

[midas]

I wonder if the new escrow provisions in Thailand could be applied to rental deposits where a condominium is rented out?

Or maybe the Escrow Act in Thailand only applies to the purchase of real estate?

But if could applied to rental deposits also - that could be the answer to stopping this practice

of landlords holding deposits. The renter could make it a condition that the deposit is held

by an escrow agent.................

[OxfordWill]

never had my deposit stolen, but I always go to the effort of ingratiating myself with the owner/manager. However much of a scammer someone might be, if they like you, they just wont. This my experience.

Edited January 16, 2009 by OxfordWill

[dotcom]

Regards owner furnished appliances etc. My lease says I pay for repairs less than 2,000 & my landlord pays repairs above 2000 baht. Fair enough.

My lease says I have to give 6 months notice. Conversely my landlord has to give me 6 months notice.

Unbeknownst to me I paid first month rent & 2 months damage deposit PLUS 5000 utility guarantee. (Because I didn't read the contract carefully enough).

In my country it is customary to pay first last & a 1 month damage deposit.

I think the landlord has up to 60 days to refund my damage deposit. I've already had my unit painted twice at my expense so that shouldn't be a problem.