Renting V Buying

[FarangFatal]

Right now you can protect your money buy renting. WHAT????

OK, with the various stock markets down down we still know that buy low sell high is the winner. In a recession the rich get richer..... You can win. Have a very carefull look at variable annuities with guraranteed return rates. If you do it with some smarts it will be done much to your well being. Everybody knows the the prop market anywhere is buyer beware, probably more so as is told about Pattaya and now that a guy was shot in Hua Hin for trying to get his money back.....

If you have the money to buy a house you can invest and have more money than needed to rent a similar house. In an annuity your buying into the stock market thru a company, often insurance companies, that provide you with income for your investment. With the stock markets so low a wise buy might double in value in 10 years or less. Here is what I'm doing. Insted of buying a house for 18mill baht (based on 36 to 1USD which will be the rate in a few months time) I'll invest the 500,000 USD in a variable annuity at 6% guaranteed return. As the market goes up the value of my investment goes up. I get 6% of the market value... Will the markets rebound? Faster than any previous downswing. Sorry that you, your kids and grand kids (I have none) will be paying for the rapid repound. Me thinks that things will go well for those with money... Here is the math 500,000 X 36 (baht-USD) = 18,000,000 Baht X .06 Annual % Ret 1,080,000/12 months is 90,000 baht per month... that will put you into some nice housing... Before the Naibobs chime in I must say that annuities are a big issue and there is lots to be learned. I'm a consumer not an agent but I like the chances, ALOT! The market will rebound and the right protfolio could jump 50% in five years.. Going from 90K baht to 135K Baht per month is a very nice nice jump in your retirement income. Certainly one must procede carefully but who gets rich in recessions, those with cash! With all that is said about houses in Pattaya and now a Farang is gunned down in Hua Hin I think I'll get a good lawyer and have them deal with a rental agent. I have been looking over the 90,000 baht per month places and they can be had for well under 18,000,000 Baht.... Rent don't buy Heard that before?

Yep, Short time OK, Long Time OK, Forevertime no Good.... I'm going to be a renter!

[DonTron]

I am not really sure what it is you are trying to say here FarangFatal?

Are you for or against real estate investments?

All I can say when it comes to investments is this:

Stocks/Shares investments

- When you buy them, they are worth exactly what you paid for them, no more no less

- You can do absolutely nothing to make them to up in value (other than pray)

- They give you no monthly passive income

Real Estate investments

- When you buy them, they might be worth a LOT more than you paid (if you know what you are doing)

- You can do lots of things to make them to up in value (paint the house, build a garage, put in a pool, furnish it nicer etc.)

- They give you a nice fat monthly passive income

You can probably guess where my money is

[FarangFatal]

I am not really sure what it is you are trying to say here FarangFatal?

Are you for or against real estate investments?

A BIT TOO RISKY IN THAILAND... WHY NOT HAVE PROPETY IN YOUR HOME COUNTY AND INVEST BOTH?

l I can say when it comes to investments is this:

PLEASE NOTE THAT I SAID ANNUITIES

Stocks/Shares investments

- When you buy them, they are worth exactly what you paid for them, no more no less

- You can do absolutely nothing to make them to up in value (other than pray)

- They give you no monthly passive income ANNUITIES PROVIDE "PASSIVE INCOME' THAT IS WHAT AN ANNUITIY DOES..... I'M SURE THAT THINGS ARE DIFFERENT IN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES. I'M IN THE PROCESS OF PUTTING 500K USD INTO A ANNUITY. I'VE DONE THE HOME WORK AND THE MATH.

Real Estate investments

- When you buy them, they might be worth a LOT more than you paid (if you know what you are doing)

- You can do lots of things to make them to up in value (paint the house, build a garage, put in a pool, furnish it nicer etc.)

- They give you a nice fat monthly passive income

You can probably guess where my money is

I WILL have nd will contiune to do so... One minor thing as to your above PLEASE NOTE ABOUT MY STIPULATION ON ANNUITIES OFFERED IN THE USA!

[soundman]

Moved to Real Estate Forum.

[tigerbalm]

I am not really sure what it is you are trying to say here FarangFatal?

Are you for or against real estate investments?

All I can say when it comes to investments is this:

Stocks/Shares investments

- When you buy them, they are worth exactly what you paid for them, no more no less

- You can do absolutely nothing to make them to up in value (other than pray)

- They give you no monthly passive income

Real Estate investments

- When you buy them, they might be worth a LOT more than you paid (if you know what you are doing)

- You can do lots of things to make them to up in value (paint the house, build a garage, put in a pool, furnish it nicer etc.)

- They give you a nice fat monthly passive income

You can probably guess where my money is

Just my two penny worth but from my point of view the real estate investments generally track the stock market investments and visa verse, i cant recall any property investments going up during a (recession) or a downward turn in the stock market as has been seen lately.

There is nothing wrong in either stock market or property investments they can both yield substantial rewards and at the same time both yield substantial losses, but i think it has a lot to do with timing, people who say i have lost a lot of money on the stock market or the price of my house has drooped substantially and i have lost a lot of money, have not necessarily lost any thing . it depends.on when they want to sell.

The way i look at it is over the last 50-60 years the general trend on both the stock market and the property market has increased even given the peaks and troughs to an extent even taking inflation in to account risen quite dramatically.

It is a difficult time at the moment for any one wanting to bring money in to the kingdom to purchase a property given the current exchange rates although some will argue it is still relatively cheap compared to western property prices.

But one thing i would say is would it be considered a wise investment to invest in property that you can not, and will not ever own (leaving condo's out of the equation)

[FarangFatal]

I am not really sure what it is you are trying to say here FarangFatal?

Are you for or against real estate investments?

All I can say when it comes to investments is this:

Stocks/Shares investments

- When you buy them, they are worth exactly what you paid for them, no more no less

- You can do absolutely nothing to make them to up in value (other than pray)

- They give you no monthly passive income

Real Estate investments

- When you buy them, they might be worth a LOT more than you paid (if you know what you are doing)

- You can do lots of things to make them to up in value (paint the house, build a garage, put in a pool, furnish it nicer etc.)

- They give you a nice fat monthly passive income

You can probably guess where my money is

Just my two penny worth but from my point of view the real estate investments generally track the stock market investments and visa verse, i cant recall any property investments going up during a (recession) or a downward turn in the stock market as has been seen lately.

There is nothing wrong in either stock market or property investments they can both yield substantial rewards and at the same time both yield substantial losses, but i think it has a lot to do with timing, people who say i have lost a lot of money on the stock market or the price of my house has drooped substantially and i have lost a lot of money, have not necessarily lost any thing . it depends.on when they want to sell.

The way i look at it is over the last 50-60 years the general trend on both the stock market and the property market has increased even given the peaks and troughs to an extent even taking inflation in to account risen quite dramatically.

It is a difficult time at the moment for any one wanting to bring money in to the kingdom to purchase a property given the current exchange rates although some will argue it is still relatively cheap compared to western property prices.

But one thing i would say is would it be considered a wise investment to invest in property that you can not, and will not ever own (leaving condo's out of the equation)

***** Did you mean to say that it "WOULDN'T" be a wise investment to invest in property you can not, and will not ever own (meaning the land)

*********************

Ok, lets keep our rambutan and lychee straight. No mixing the apples and oranges.... I'm talking about Annuities in the U.S. and realestate in Thailand. Keep that clear! Now just to ad to the equation since I made this post I have had a long conference with my Merrill Lynch Acct Exec and the Annuity mkt will change some very soon. Does it change the picture, a little for me as I have annutized some assets and will add to the annutization but probably in different funds. I'll not get into that but just say things are good in the U.S. for active income from Annuities, (end of that story)

That was the rambutan here is the lychee.... Housing in Thailand, barring not being scammed (and that is a big stipulation in and of itself) unless there is a big market adjustment downward on sale price I hold on my position of getting more for you money considering that the Thai housing market holds poor liquidity as is the annuity games depending on the withdrawal restrictions..... Lot's of variables... Yep. How ever here is one that we know will be true. Since the building standards in Thailand are not as high as in developed countries it will likely require a much more cost of maintaing you property over the years (lower value due to long term costs)..

How much more, we <deleted> don't cause all these wizbang houses that are less that 5 years old have no imperical data on how long they will last..... OOOOOPs, mabey all this muck about 30 year leases is moot because these junk houses will fall down before the lease is up... I'm not a builder but I have looked at houses in Pattaya, Hua Hin, Phuket and one build to high standards in Issan and the Issan builder said, look, many junk house build cheap for farang not even rust proff the beams, have too small or no termite protection, lack proper circuit breakers which will cause fire. A Thai builder said that you have to spend at least 60% of the immediate sale value to get a good quality house made. Now, what is this about only 40% of the sale price is building cost?????

Wow, those variable annuities are looking pretty good! For what I see in the U.S. market that is!

Hope you all find this interesting and don't forget to not mix the rambutan and lychee is future posts!

[lannarebirth]

My 2 cents. When you give your money to someone else to take care of, over time, the temptation to steal it increases. Did you say Merril Lynch? I know an old lady that had $2,000,000 with them that they churned to $17,000. Good Luck.

[FarangFatal]

ML.... you need to be proacive, you acct exec keeps you up with the latest offers and you make you moves. Not a LOL (Little Old Lady)

[think_too_mut]

ML.... you need to be proacive, you acct exec keeps you up with the latest offers and you make you moves. Not a LOL (Little Old Lady)

man, have you entered a self-imposed loop?

[LennyW]

Ok, lets keep our rambutan and lychee straight. No mixing the apples and oranges.... I'm talking about Annuities in the U.S. and realestate in Thailand. Keep that clear! Now just to ad to the equation since I made this post I have had a long conference with my Merrill Lynch Acct Exec and the Annuity mkt will change some very soon. Does it change the picture, a little for me as I have annutized some assets and will add to the annutization but probably in different funds. I'll not get into that but just say things are good in the U.S. for active income from Annuities, (end of that story)

That was the rambutan here is the lychee.... Housing in Thailand, barring not being scammed (and that is a big stipulation in and of itself) unless there is a big market adjustment downward on sale price I hold on my position of getting more for you money considering that the Thai housing market holds poor liquidity as is the annuity games depending on the withdrawal restrictions..... Lot's of variables... Yep. How ever here is one that we know will be true. Since the building standards in Thailand are not as high as in developed countries it will likely require a much more cost of maintaing you property over the years (lower value due to long term costs)..

How much more, we <deleted> don't cause all these wizbang houses that are less that 5 years old have no imperical data on how long they will last..... OOOOOPs, mabey all this muck about 30 year leases is moot because these junk houses will fall down before the lease is up... I'm not a builder but I have looked at houses in Pattaya, Hua Hin, Phuket and one build to high standards in Issan and the Issan builder said, look, many junk house build cheap for farang not even rust proff the beams, have too small or no termite protection, lack proper circuit breakers which will cause fire. A Thai builder said that you have to spend at least 60% of the immediate sale value to get a good quality house made. Now, what is this about only 40% of the sale price is building cost?????

Wow, those variable annuities are looking pretty good! For what I see in the U.S. market that is!

Hope you all find this interesting and don't forget to not mix the rambutan and lychee is future posts!

Sounds like the ramblings of a right Richard Cranium!!

[basjke]

ML.... you need to be proacive, you acct exec keeps you up with the latest offers and you make you moves. Not a LOL (Little Old Lady)

If so then how they guarantee you 6 % annually.

[FarangFatal]

ML.... you need to be proacive, you acct exec keeps you up with the latest offers and you make you moves. Not a LOL (Little Old Lady)

If so then how they guarantee you 6 % annually.

My note speaks to find the right options for an investment in the county of choice, preferably that of you citizenship! As to the 6% annual.... numerous funds off that. Annuities are certain a complex area. I have learned alot over the last few years. I will not, as too many other do in cyber space cadet fashion) pretent to be an expert. I have only say that you should be able to understand what is on the market and that right now things are in a BIG state of flux.

The intent of my posts speaks to looking at an investment oppertunity that allows you to stay away from the realestate market in Thailand. I like the realestate market, just not in Thailand. That is my opinion.

Thing before you buy your dream house as it may be a bad dream which there seems to be too many stories.... Equally good stories abound. Up to you, but you do have choices. Those choices need to be with great care.

End of my posts for this thread as I appears the flamettes are about to mix rambutan and lychee and Pad Thai. Khao Jai?

[Digger]

A Thai builder said that you have to spend at least 60% of the immediate sale value to get a good quality house made. Now, what is this about only 40% of the sale price is building cost?????

ratios split 3 ways are pretty common in my experience for building houses. Third for the land, Third for the property and third for the profit/funding costs/selling expenses etc. Thats certainly commonplace in the UK but not so sure about here.

I cant help but wonder why you dont spread your money around a little bit more though - seems like a hi-risk strategy to me in keeping so much in one channel. By the way, I agree with you about property in Pattaya - hardly ever see anything worth 18,000,000b and I look at a lot of property - its basically a 6- 12,000,000 max property no matter what the clown of an owner thinks its worth and most of that value is in the land, as the numbers of people who actually seem to know what they are doing could be written on a postage stamp. There are exceptions but they are few and far between.

[midas]

ML.... you need to be proacive, you acct exec keeps you up with the latest offers and you make you moves. Not a LOL (Little Old Lady)

If so then how they guarantee you 6 % annually.

My note speaks to find the right options for an investment in the county of choice, preferably that of you citizenship! As to the 6% annual.... numerous funds off that. Annuities are certain a complex area. I have learned alot over the last few years. I will not, as too many other do in cyber space cadet fashion) pretent to be an expert. I have only say that you should be able to understand what is on the market and that right now things are in a BIG state of flux.

The intent of my posts speaks to looking at an investment oppertunity that allows you to stay away from the realestate market in Thailand. I like the realestate market, just not in Thailand. That is my opinion.

Thing before you buy your dream house as it may be a bad dream which there seems to be too many stories.... Equally good stories abound. Up to you, but you do have choices. Those choices need to be with great care.

End of my posts for this thread as I appears the flamettes are about to mix rambutan and lychee and Pad Thai. Khao Jai?

I share your concerns on these issues.............

1. Immigration laws in Thailand have changed for the worst in the past at the drop of a hat. Oh .......shock horror

I can live very comfortably thank you very much without that anxiety hanging over me..............

2.If you take the time to really study the legal differences between owning a condo in Thailand

compared to more developed countries.........there are some serious flaws and deficiencies in the

Thai condo laws.

[london]

6% GUARANTEED return and in a US annuity?

Mmmmm, be careful. Be VERY careful.

Or should I say "Good Luck!"

[glyph]

"1. Immigration laws in Thailand have changed for the worst in the past at the drop of a hat."

When was the last Thai immigration law changed "at the drop of a hat", and how did that impede farang ownership of a condo?

"2....there are some serious flaws and deficiencies in the Thai condo laws."

Using your knowledge of Thai condo law, please explain the worst serious flaws and deficiencies, and how the condo law in your home country differs form the Thai law. Oh, and explain how those "serious flaws and deficiencies" have translated to lower farang condo ownership.

[midas]

"1. Immigration laws in Thailand have changed for the worst in the past at the drop of a hat."

When was the last Thai immigration law changed "at the drop of a hat", and how did that impede farang ownership of a condo?

"2....there are some serious flaws and deficiencies in the Thai condo laws."

Using your knowledge of Thai condo law, please explain the worst serious flaws and deficiencies, and how the condo law in your home country differs form the Thai law. Oh, and explain how those "serious flaws and deficiencies" have translated to lower farang condo ownership.

There is no statutory referee in the Thai condo legal system ? Who has the power to resolve problems

between owners ? And think carefull before you answer ( clue I am not talking about the Juristic Person )

[midas]

"1. Immigration laws in Thailand have changed for the worst in the past at the drop of a hat."

When was the last Thai immigration law changed "at the drop of a hat", and how did that impede farang ownership of a condo?

Well it is bad enough for somone to have recently posted this :-

Thailand immigration changes visa rules again - yet more confusion!

April 28th, 2008 by The Lost Boy

As if the rules for visas in Thailand weren’t already ludicrously confusing, it has now been announced that the rules for visas on arrival have changed again. The report from the Phuket Gazette doesn’t quite clear the issues up, however:

“From October 1, 2006 to March 31, 2008, we counted all the days from the foreigner’s first day regardless whether the foreigner was actually in Thailand or not.

“Also, foreigners were not permitted to stay in Thailand after their 180-day period had expired [counted from the foreigner’s first day], regardless whether the foreigner had stayed a full 90 days in Thailand or not,” Capt. Krissarat said.

“However, the rule has been changed. From April 1, we now count only the days the foreigner has stayed in Thailand – and foreigners are now allowed to stay past the 180-day period,” he said.

The number of consecutive visa exemptions allowed is no longer limited to three, he added.

What this seems to be saying is that nothing has actually changed. Pol. Capt. Krissarat Nuesen seems to be under the impression that days in Thailand were not being counted and that after a first visa on arrival, you could only stay for 90 days, and then had to leave for 90 days. This isn’t how the system has been working. What he seems to be saying is that now only days spent actually in Thailand will be counted, which was the case anyway, was it not?

Thai immigration is renowned for doing things that utterly baffle foreigners. The rules often make little sense.

I first found this story on Thai Visa.Thailand immigration changes visa rules again - yet more confusion!

[PeaceBlondie]

If rentals were not so ridiculously cheap here in Thailand, the argument would make more sense, to buy. And if you knew you were sure to live in a moobahn with your family for ten years, and the moobahn would increase in value and not decrease in prestige, fine. But those are not the cases.

We are finally building a very modest home, for less than a million baht, in the country. They are dumping dirt onto the rice paddy as I type this. I do not regret one satang I spent on rent these past 5.5 years. I moved back and forth as I pleased, never paying over 8000 baht for rent. Actually, the best reasons for buying instead of renting (and using the money to invest wisely), are personal, not financial. This will be my tenth home I have owned...well of course not, silly! I came to Thailand knowing that farang never really own houses and land.

[glyph]

"From October 1, 2006 to March 31, 2008, we counted all the days from the foreigner’s first day..."

Well, midas, once again we have people who can't count up to 90. Since they can't count up to 90, or have long-term visa arrangements, these people aren't going to be buying homes in Thailand. Nice try.

"There is no statutory referee in the Thai condo legal system ?"

Is that a question, or a statement? In your home country, who is the "statutory referee"? Regardless of the differences in the laws between Thailand and your home country, something have remained the same: you can't afford a home. Not everyone is meant to own their own home.

[GungaDin]

TIP !

Before responding to the OP, check out his topics (12) & posts since 17/11!

Not in Thailand, yet.

[midas]

"From October 1, 2006 to March 31, 2008, we counted all the days from the foreigner’s first day..."

Well, midas, once again we have people who can't count up to 90. Since they can't count up to 90, or have long-term visa arrangements, these people aren't going to be buying homes in Thailand. Nice try.

"There is no statutory referee in the Thai condo legal system ?"

Is that a question, or a statement? In your home country, who is the "statutory referee"? Regardless of the differences in the laws between Thailand and your home country, something have remained the same: you can't afford a home. Not everyone is meant to own their own home.

glyph if you don't understand why a statutory referee ( incidentally it's a statement

regarding Thailand not a question ) is needed in any situation where there is

multiple ownership in one building or complex then my friend you should not be investing

in real estate! It's too sophisticated for your pea brain

The reason I have such in-depth knowledge of it compared to your ignorance

is that in my home country where I own two beautiful condominiums,

I feel it's rather important to have an in-depth knowledge of everything connected

to what one owns -you should try it sometime

[Gary A]

I think an annuity salesman convinced him. The commissions from selling annuities are quite high. I'd read the fine print VERY carefully, then pay someone who understands how they actually work to explain it to me.

[think_too_mut]

In a recession the rich get richer.....

What a nonsense.

What is happening now with 5000$ suits bankers? Hundreds of thousands jobs in finance only lost.

Ask Richard Fuld, ex-CEO of Lehman, he was a billionaire (when you see him at soup kitchen).

CEOs of Detroit's Big 3 - they were paid 20+ million a year now working for 1$, their piles of stocks worthless.

Edited December 7, 2008 by think_too_mut

[kaxper]

In a recession the rich get richer.....

What a nonsense. What is happening now with 5000$ suits bankers? Hundreds of thousands jobs in finance only lost. Ask Richard Fuld, ex-CEO of Lehman, he was a billionaire (when you see him at soup kitchen). CEOs of Detroit's Big 3 - they were paid 20+ million a year now working for 1$, their piles of stocks worthless.

in a recession, the rich survive, the poor get f@#$%! and the rest move back with their parents ..

[FarangFatal]

In a recession the rich get richer.....

What a nonsense. What is happening now with 5000$ suits bankers? Hundreds of thousands jobs in finance only lost. Ask Richard Fuld, ex-CEO of Lehman, he was a billionaire (when you see him at soup kitchen). CEOs of Detroit's Big 3 - they were paid 20+ million a year now working for 1$, their piles of stocks worthless.

in a recession, the rich survive, the poor get f@#$%! and the rest move back with their parents ..

I couldn't agree more... Like I said, happy days are here again! FCYK< I've already made money in the market in the U.S. And, yes my 6% guaranteed Annuity did get a bailout from the U.S. Mahalo tayers, for the tax rebate. Also another fund, retirement, went belly up but was bailed out under U.S. Law.... Happy Days are Still here! Have money, during recession, get more!

Edited December 9, 2008 by FarangFatal

[PeaceBlondie]

So, my most modest house being built on a rice paddy, and my rental home here in a fancy moobahn, are more than FarangFatal has in Thailand. I feel like Warren Buffet, thick eyebrows and all.

[stevejones123]

How safe are annuities? If the bank tanks then presumably your money isn't protected.

[kingwillly]

All I can say when it comes to investments is this:

Stocks/Shares investments

- They give you no monthly passive income

Real Estate investments

wrong. have you heard of dividends?

and you forgot to mention that property also comes with expenses.

[JimmyGreaves]

In a recession the rich get richer.....

What a nonsense. What is happening now with 5000$ suits bankers? Hundreds of thousands jobs in finance only lost. Ask Richard Fuld, ex-CEO of Lehman, he was a billionaire (when you see him at soup kitchen). CEOs of Detroit's Big 3 - they were paid 20+ million a year now working for 1$, their piles of stocks worthless.

in a recession, the rich survive, the poor get f@#$%! and the rest move back with their parents ..

I couldn't agree more... Like I said, happy days are here again! FCYK< I've already made money in the market in the U.S. And, yes my 6% guaranteed Annuity did get a bailout from the U.S. Mahalo tayers, for the tax rebate. Also another fund, retirement, went belly up but was bailed out under U.S. Law.... Happy Days are Still here! Have money, during recession, get more!

Your not a full shilling FarangFatal, go Troll somewhere else!