Why Do Some Ex Pats Defend Thailand At All Costs

[Geekfreaklover]

Defending certain cultural aspects of Thailand is a good thing, as is not accepting certain other factors; immigration policy for example, seems outdated. The problem that we have as guests in the country, and as human beings, is to accept the things we like and complain about the things we don't like. This is natural.

However, I think the crux of the original post is that there are many Farangs that I would compare to "Shitake Mushrooms" - Kept in the dark and feed bullsh#t. They continue to defend their misconceptions until the bubble burts. Then they become cynical and depressed. Normally a few months back in their home country brings them back to their senses and they realise they could have made a better go of it.

[grandpops]

I don't think we defend Thailand as much as we love to further irritate the wanke_rs that endlessly complain about everything they can't handle

There is also a beautiful gleaming airport in Bangkok along with other regional ones that can get these whinging sods out of the country.

Why don't they get on line and buy a flight out instead of wasting time complaining about Thailand.

[Misplaced]

I don't think we defend Thailand as much as we love to further irritate the wanke_rs that endlessly complain about everything they can't handle

There is also a beautiful gleaming airport in Bangkok along with other regional ones that can get these whinging sods out of the country.

Why don't they get on line and buy a flight out instead of wasting time complaining about Thailand.

and don't let the door hit you on your way out

[Jingthing]

Why don't they get on line and buy a flight out instead of wasting time complaining about Thailand.

Maybe no place to go to anymore?

[Geekfreaklover]

Why don't they get on line and buy a flight out instead of wasting time complaining about Thailand.

Maybe no place to go to anymore?

I hear Cambodia is nice this time of year.

[Jingthing]

Why don't they get on line and buy a flight out instead of wasting time complaining about Thailand.

Maybe no place to go to anymore?

I hear Cambodia is nice this time of year.

That would be an improvement?

[Geekfreaklover]

Why don't they get on line and buy a flight out instead of wasting time complaining about Thailand.

Maybe no place to go to anymore?

I hear Cambodia is nice this time of year.

That would be an improvement?

Probably not for Cambodia!

[Felt 35]

But there are many things very, beautiful about this place( the smiles alone warm my heart, the beauty of land, the inherant kindness of so many, etc, etc, but none of those are the ones clung to

it is the lies, and deceit, the internal racism I hate

thailand was never a colony... sorry- it was, far more so than many others and still is and always will be until it stops becoming the worlds most favote over 50 I want to find( meaning buy) love retirement zone

Thailand is democratic- oh, then why are its own people not allowed to question its own people

Thailand is not a 3rd world country- go and take a peek at nana, look at its appalling human rights issues, it healthcare... and ask if this is true...

I could fill 10 pages with this

, and until it allows its own people to question EVERYTHING, until it own up to its own failings, no welfare, a ruling elite who does not give a dam about the way its own people are treated and keep them happy with all this false pride it will never progress

The above is well pointed out.

However what is supporting and makes it possible for a ruling elite who does not give a dam about the way its own people are treated to still sit in power.

Weapon, well money are like power .I.e. weapon.

Why do the ruling elite have more money = weapon than the majority of the population?

Control and rules which favour the ruling elite and keep the majority of the population down. I.e. the ruling elite own or control most of the production, factories and service industry and make huge profits. The moneyed class loots the Nation, while the working class suffer lower wages, higher prices and decreased human rights and constitutional liberties. More accurate, vulture capitalism.

The ruling elite own the politicians, makes the people stupid so they can rule more easily themselves, they rule your job opportunities they use the cheapest labour, preferably imported, they destroy the environment, they take your tax money when they fail in investment, their politicians have made it easy for their third world neighbours to immigrate here so they get cheap labour.

So where do it leave us foreigners on TV forum and how to define what is to defend. Personally I see it this way. The Thais live in a injustice system ruled by the elite. I’m against injustice. I’m not against Thais. If I say everything is fine I would support the elite. With putting the finger on point I think is not good its to hope that if they ever get a democratic system here it would change!

It seems as also on TV that political background, personal and economical interests, makes it clear why some dare to complain against a injustice system and others applaud it.

A system which is hardly feel able for us day to day but very see able unless blind. A system very unfair to the majority of the Thai people. When on one side some seems to clap their hands and walk hand in hand with the ruling elite with exploiting the system as best they can to make their own little emporium and one the other side they who complain against the system, not for their own sake but for unfairness of it mostly get the message that they can leave, from the “want to be” ruling elite TV foreigners.

What this last bunch here is doing is to clearly support the ruling elite with their arrogance for where they live.

[garro]

I think another problem is that many people from the West have grown up with an inflated sense of their own importance in the great scheme of things, and feel that it's vital that they express their opinion about everything. They arrive in Thailand complaining about their own countries and how they need to escape, but after a few years in Thailand they complain because the Thais aren't doing things the way they would back in their own home country. They begin to feel that it is important to try and change things or at least whinge a little.

I like living in Thailand, but I don't think that this gives me the right to try and change the place. I have heard this subject come up among Thais and they always, without fail, become irritated with the idea of foreigners attempting to interfere in Thai affairs. They don't want the white man trying to save them. I can't say that I blame them. Thailand does not pretend to treat immigrants as equal citizens and we can either like this or lump it.

Edited November 21, 2008 by garro

[GuestHouse]

I think another problem is that many people from the West have grown up with an inflated sense of their own importance in the great scheme of things, and feel that it's vital that they express their opinion about everything. They arrive in Thailand complaining about their own countries and how they need to escape, but after a few years in Thailand they complain because the Thais aren't doing things the way they would back in their own home country. They begin to feel that it is important to try and change things or at least whinge a little.

I like living in Thailand, but I don't think that this gives me the right to try and change the place. I have heard this subject come up among Thais and they always, without fail, become irritated with the idea of foreigners attempting to interfere in Thai affairs. They don't want the white man trying to save them. I can't say that I blame them. Thailand does not pretend to treat immigrants as equal citizens and we can either like this or lump it.

I think this is a good example of how we view the opinions and indeed motivations of others through our own eyes (that may be predjudiced).

One might argue that a wesetern does not have an '+inflated sense of their own importace in the great scheme of things, and feel that it's vital that they express their opinion about everything+' rather that as a westerner they are culturally and and educationally predisposed to expressing opinions.

Likewise the presentation of annecdotal evidence is fraught with who selects the evidence. I certainly can contradict what Garro says here regarding Thais views of Foreigner's commenting on Thai society - I have many interesting conversations discussing the problems in Thai society with Thais. My own observation is that they share the same concerns as non Thais do.

I do acceppt though that there are many foreigners who do not like the idea of other foreigners taking part in the society that they have chosen to live in. Being present in a society and taking part in that society being two entirely different things.

There is a debate on where Thai society is, where Thai society is going - Thais are taking part in that debate and I can only regard foreigners who have made Thailand their home who care about their home, perhaps the home of their children, getting involved in the debate and expressing views and opinions as a good thing.

[sabaijai]

This is the land of denial. To live here, one has to do as the Thai do, go into denial.

I suspect that many who so vehemently defend Thailand at all costs are in denial. The good which they so boldly tout, is mostly plastic. Scratch the surface and very little real good is found here.

Which makes me terribly sad. I'd love to love Thailand.

But why do Non Thai Bashers get labelled as being in denial, whilst the Thai bashers are seen as enlightened ?

I'll give you an example, I knew a UK guy that once had a lot of money, he bought into a hotel business, restaurant, Bar etc etc...In fact he bought into it with a Farang that was just looking for a mug to cough up some money cos he was getting really low on cash.

Anyway, this guy loved Thailand, couldn't say a bad word about the place, when the other Farang cleared off with the money and this guy was left on his own to pay for leases etc, he eventually also became a little short of money, after that his attituide took a dramatic reversal, never said a good word about Thailand, blamed Thailand for his bad judgement and became very disillusioned, in fact he hated his life here.

The usual things being said, all Thai men are lazy Thai woman are all gold diggers etc etc etc...you know what I mean, just read many threads here on TV

So he left, he had to cos he was broke.

His Father was still alive and was well off, when his Father passed away, this guy inherited money property etc.....Guess what he done, yep you got it, he cashed in and came back to Thailand again.

This time he was wiser and stayed away from business ventures, especially bars etc, he's still here and with his money he is secure enough to like Thailand again.

So it wasn't Thailand he hated it was his poor judgement that he regretted, now he has money, he's back to liking it again.

Personal circumstances emotionally and financially may well have a bearing on ones happiness in a Foreign land, certainly did in his case.

It's alright moaning about the things you can change, but to say things like " Thai parents don't care about their children " is ridiculous.

Thai people are incapable of this, THai people are incapable of that and anything else the bashers can think of, I'm pretty sure most are trolling, cos if they live in Thailand and are so unhappy and disillusioned, they may well be mentally unstable if they stay.

And looking around Pattaya yesterday, there's enough nutcases here already without adding to the ranks.

Ol' REd Eyes, this ain't all directed at you, only the parts you associate yourself with are.

Good post. Like the saying goes, 'What a Spaniard brings to the Indies, he finds in the Indies.'

[HorseDoctor]

Last year , one of the papers did an expose on a Thai writer, I wish I could remember her name, but she has a great point on people mistaking her for her writing- which was doom and gloom and all blue period - but when upon meeting her, and her friends would say- found out how cheerful and pleasant she was to be around ..

Maybe those who defend Thailand vehemently ( ahem, even slandering others personally to do so ,) are just ..venting. Much as I am venting when I write how frustrating and infuriating I find TLand to be .

Perhaps both side put too much analysis into perception of what authors are like . An artist is not his painting, a musician their score, why is a writer her composition?

Edited November 21, 2008 by HorseDoctor

[GuestHouse]

I think Horsedoctor has made a very perceptive observation

[garro]

I think another problem is that many people from the West have grown up with an inflated sense of their own importance in the great scheme of things, and feel that it's vital that they express their opinion about everything. They arrive in Thailand complaining about their own countries and how they need to escape, but after a few years in Thailand they complain because the Thais aren't doing things the way they would back in their own home country. They begin to feel that it is important to try and change things or at least whinge a little.

I like living in Thailand, but I don't think that this gives me the right to try and change the place. I have heard this subject come up among Thais and they always, without fail, become irritated with the idea of foreigners attempting to interfere in Thai affairs. They don't want the white man trying to save them. I can't say that I blame them. Thailand does not pretend to treat immigrants as equal citizens and we can either like this or lump it.

I think this is a good example of how we view the opinions and indeed motivations of others through our own eyes (that may be predjudiced).

One might argue that a wesetern does not have an '+inflated sense of their own importace in the great scheme of things, and feel that it's vital that they express their opinion about everything+' rather that as a westerner they are culturally and and educationally predisposed to expressing opinions.

Likewise the presentation of annecdotal evidence is fraught with who selects the evidence. I certainly can contradict what Garro says here regarding Thais views of Foreigner's commenting on Thai society - I have many interesting conversations discussing the problems in Thai society with Thais. My own observation is that they share the same concerns as non Thais do.

I do acceppt though that there are many foreigners who do not like the idea of other foreigners taking part in the society that they have chosen to live in. Being present in a society and taking part in that society being two entirely different things.

There is a debate on where Thai society is, where Thai society is going - Thais are taking part in that debate and I can only regard foreigners who have made Thailand their home who care about their home, perhaps the home of their children, getting involved in the debate and expressing views and opinions as a good thing.

Perhaps we converse with different types of Thai people. Those who I speak to are insistent that they do not need not want foreign interference and that this type of interference is in fact dangerous for Thailand. They explain that what has worked in other countries may not work in Thailand and that Thailand needs to develop at its own pace and as the people of Thailand see fit. I have spoken to Thai people who strongly suspect that all the recent unrest is being encouraged and manipulated by foreigners.

Of course, this is all just hearsay and I can say that Thai people say this and GH can say that Thai people say that, but at the end of the day all I can give is my opinion and repeat what I have been told. The same as you GH. Of course I will have the benefit of actually living in Thailand and so perhaps arguably better able to judge the current mood.

You are correct to say that my views of other people's motivations will involve my own prejudices; everything we say and do is prejudiced to some degree. This in no way means it is necessarily wrong; just that people need to make their own minds up to whether or not my arguments are convincing. The same with every other post written on this forum; including your own.

I suppose we all have our motivations when coming to Thailand. I certainly didn't come to tell the locals how they should be living.

Edited November 21, 2008 by garro

[HorseDoctor]

I think Horsedoctor has made a very perceptive observation

Sniff sniff, Thank you Guest House , you always have something nice to say sometimes I wish I could be more like that but then I don't need to write when I have something nice to say, except now..

What does your latin mean ?

[camerata]

One thing I've noticed about myself and other expats is that venting and whingeing, if it works at all, is only a short-term solution to the frustrations of living in Thailand. The long-term solution is to read all you can about how Thailand came to be the way it is. Once you understand it, it makes it a lot easier to deal with.

[ETC]

To admit need, would be the same as admitting inadequacies, something a Thai will not do, and something many of the Thai defenders refuse to do.

Huh...

Do you mean the 65 Million Thai people that you don't know, or the one that married you ?

Oh good one mister ambasordor, what would Thailand do without out you here to defend it?

It would carry on in the Thai way, just as it will carry on and survive in the Thai way despite your moaning about it. Cos if I defend or you attack Thailand, in the grand scheme of things, it's makes not one iota of difference to Thailand, only to yourself, so I tend to look upon the positive whilst you prefer to look upon the negative. We have a choice, that's what makes a forum,

let's face it, if the forum was nothing but Thai bashing, it would be banned from local servers probably, you know what the censorship is like here............LOL, you see it's infectious, I'm moaning about something I can't change...

Just to add, if I was as unhappy as many of the Thai bashers appear to be in Thailand, I'd be on the first available flight out, or I'd live a pretty miserable life here if I had no choice.

Luckily I have a choice, and I choose to remain here, if that's OK with the majority of the posters here.

While reading this thread, my mind started waundering and, I tried to decide which argument was closer to right. There is much to be said for those expats that see the flaws and feel compelled to point them out. On the other hand, I can understand those that choose to be defenders of everything Thai. Personally I'm nit noi of both arguments, but if I had to choose sides, I would pick those that defend everything Thai, and for this reason.

Let's compare this discussion to a 2-liter pitcher with 1-liter of milk. Now some will argue that the pitcher has 1-liter of milk and the others will argue that the pitcher is missing 1-liter of milk.

Now we all know that both people are right in their statements, but the real question is what prompted their decisions. If each person was allowed to have only one 8-oz glass of milk, then each person is equal in material gain.

I favor the person that saw the 2-liter pitcher as having 1-liter of milk, because he was completely satisfied with filling his glass and didn't expect anything else. A simple expectation that didn't leave room for negative thought, and thus he is willing to defend that one glass of milk. I can find no fault in that train of thought.

I also think we must walk in another person's shoes before we can truly begin to understand why they think and do what they do.. If we as expats keep our expectaions in check, there will be enough positive things to make us all smile...

Edited November 21, 2008 by ETC

[GuestHouse]

Garro:

I suppose we all have our motivations when coming to Thailand. I certainly didn't come to tell the locals how they should be living.

Indeed, it's a personal thing. But I doubt many people arrive in Thailand with the express purpose of telling the locals how to live. My guess is many arive and after making Thailand their home begin to care about the place and want to offer their comments on where the undeniable problems could be solved/addressed or otherwise dealt with.

Coversely I do accept that many foreigners arive in Thailand with the express purpose of escaping personal responsibility and involvement with anything but themselves. Those people, I am sure, don't like the idea of 'getting involved'.

Horsedoctor

What does your latin mean ?

'That which befalls one person might befall anyone'

From Seneca's "On Consolation - ad Marciam", it became something of a Latin Proverb.

Edited November 21, 2008 by GuestHouse

[Maigo6]

'That which befalls one person might befall anyone'

From Seneca's "On Consolation - ad Marciam", it became something of a Latin Proverb.

Or as Eminem would say " It could happen to you cos it happened to me "

[bkkjames]

or as James would say "If clues were shoes you'd be walking on the cheeks of your as*s."

[Maigo6]

or as James would say "If clues were shoes you'd be walking on the cheeks of your as*s."

LOL.....

Good one.

[bkkjames]

or as James would say "If clues were shoes you'd be walking on the cheeks of your as*s."

LOL.....

Good one.

Stop the TV presses, Mr GO6orhalfofabaker'sdozen actually laughed. In defense of him, it is Friday and he is in Thailand (poor attempt at staying on-topic I know)

[Samuian]

if one takes "the observer is the observed" under close consideration... not much else needs to be said about this specific ever and ever reoccurring topic!

[bkkjames]

if one takes "the observer is the observed" under close consideration... not much else needs to be said about this specific ever and ever reoccurring topic!

And this my friend is what you get for a PHD in philosophy.

On topic, Why defend Thailand? Simple, we love it.

[garro]

Guest House said;

Coversely I do accept that many foreigners arive in Thailand with the express purpose of escaping personal responsibility and involvement with anything but themselves. Those people, I am sure, don't like the idea of 'getting involved'.

I think that it is a common mistake to equate benefiting society with being the most vocal in that society. I believe that any logical person who thought this idea through would quickly see its flawed nature. The idea that complaining about a country somehow means you care more or are somehow benefiting it more is just sloppy thinking. It is my view it is often the least vocal members of society who benefit it most, and that there are far more productive ways to benefit a community than complaining about it.

[Sarge]

Why don't they get on line and buy a flight out instead of wasting time complaining about Thailand.

Maybe no place to go to anymore?

I hear Cambodia is nice this time of year.

That would be an improvement?

Probably not for Cambodia!

good one!

seriously, that remark about having burnt bridges behind them sums it up

[GuestHouse]

Guest House said;

Coversely I do accept that many foreigners arive in Thailand with the express purpose of escaping personal responsibility and involvement with anything but themselves. Those people, I am sure, don't like the idea of 'getting involved'.

I think that it is a common mistake to equate benefiting society with being the most vocal in that society. I believe that any logical person who thought this idea through would quickly see its flawed nature. The idea that complaining about a country somehow means you care more or are somehow benefiting it more is just sloppy thinking. It is my view it is often the least vocal members of society who benefit it most, and that there are far more productive ways to benefit a community than complaining about it.

Indeed I agree, but then there are those who would rather not change anything, lest doing so interferes with the reason why they are in Thailand in the first place. It is my view it is often the least vocal members of society are often those who feel they benefit from the problems other complain about.

Not that there is anything intriscally wrong with keeping one's own council - but I do take issue with this desire to deny others the right to express an opinion.

If you do not like someone else's opinion there's no need to tell them to 'go home' or attack their personality, ignoring them is a real alternative.

[garro]

Guest House said;

Coversely I do accept that many foreigners arive in Thailand with the express purpose of escaping personal responsibility and involvement with anything but themselves. Those people, I am sure, don't like the idea of 'getting involved'.

I think that it is a common mistake to equate benefiting society with being the most vocal in that society. I believe that any logical person who thought this idea through would quickly see its flawed nature. The idea that complaining about a country somehow means you care more or are somehow benefiting it more is just sloppy thinking. It is my view it is often the least vocal members of society who benefit it most, and that there are far more productive ways to benefit a community than complaining about it.

Indeed I agree, but then there are those who would rather not change anything, lest doing so interferes with the reason why they are in Thailand in the first place. It is my view it is often the least vocal members of society are often those who feel they benefit from the problems other complain about.

Not that there is anything intriscally wrong with keeping one's own council - but I do take issue with this desire to deny others the right to express an opinion.

If you do not like someone else's opinion there's no need to tell them to 'go home' or attack their personality, ignoring them is a real alternative.

I don't believe that I have told anybody to go home. This is not my business. I won't however pretend that most of the complaints on TV are somehow more noble than the petty whining that they often amount to. Of course, I do ignore the many of the negative posts where possible, but sometimes you have to wade through a pile of shit to find a gem.

[tomahawk]

Since I have read people's comments on this topic I have noticed that people that I know personally who complain the most about Thailand also complain about their home country, their wife, the weather, and most everything. Perhaps these people are just negative and it is not really about Thailand, but it is about them. Maybe I am wrong but I noticed this lately. Today I did something with both Thais and farangs which benefited Thailand and people here in a very small way but at least it was something. No one got any money or personal gain from it but I, who do I admit complain about life here at times, found this to be more satisfying than just bitching. Perhaps if I, and other people, take the time we spend complaining and whining and do something, no matter how small or minor, to make things better we will all be happier people.

[Gary A]

Some of the posters summed me up to a great extent. I DON'T want any responsibilities, duties or obligations. I paid my dues by working all my life and what's left of my life belongs to me. I get up when I want, go to bed when I want, wear what I want and go where and when I want. Some years back, I had a great girlfriend who had children. I was too selfish to marry her because her children were in the package, and yes, I'm far too selfish to raise children that are not mine. I don't have to defend Thailand or my life style. I like it here and I like my life style. Fortunately I have a wife who understands me and she herself is quite independent. No jealous clinging woman for me.