Air Polution

[Ajarn]

I'm wondering about the 'clueless farangs' mentioned....

[ferd54]

It's pretty much the same anywhere on the Chiang Mai plauteu, I think. We don't get much in the way of wind to blow the pollution away...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, there isn't much wind, but the prevailing wind there is seems to some from the south -- and as it hits Chiang Mai, gets blocked by the mountains (Chiang Dao, Doi Suthep, Doi Saket, etc.). I think the pollution is worse north of town than south (where I live). It's still bad, but the real "bowl" is just north of town.

[Ajarn]

It's pretty much the same anywhere on the Chiang Mai plauteu, I think. We don't get much in the way of wind to blow the pollution away...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, there isn't much wind, but the prevailing wind there is seems to some from the south -- and as it hits Chiang Mai, gets blocked by the mountains (Chiang Dao, Doi Suthep, Doi Saket, etc.). I think the pollution is worse north of town than south (where I live). It's still bad, but the real "bowl" is just north of town.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The prevailing winds here are seasonal, and can also change at certain times of the day, too. Check a long range weather forecast... During the hot season the prevailing winds are normally from the South, S/E or S/W.... In the cold season, it's mainly from the north (China) and N/W. Rainy season, mainly from the North, N/W and with some storms from the West S/W...

[Harmonica]

The living room lights are on, the air-conditioners are all on, but there is nobody home. Worse still, there's nobody driving the car!

Everybody is too-good-to-be-true nice!

But where the heck are they?

Worse -- who or what are they?

It must be Lalaland!

OK, all is forgiven.

Still Paradise?

[Maka]

A few days ago I went to Mea Sai and returnd to CM via Payao. The smoke was much heavier in the North and the worst at the border.

The drive from Payao to CM (in the dark at night) revealed no less than a dozen forest fires, one right along side the road, and no apperant effort to controll or reduce them.

(I wont go to the pros and cons of fighting them v/s letting them burn)

I do believe that most of this "smog" is really forest fire smoke. Once we get a little rain it'll all clear up.

Lala land? I dunno.

I was wondering though "Was it smokey like this 1,000 yrs ago? Could be"

[Harmonica]

Chiangmai Mail has had an article on pollution in the last several issues. This week's front page article is headed, "Air pollution in Chiang Mai soars"

Dust level max. 120 micron/cu. m

Now 151.2

No further comments necessary.

[Maka]

Ok

I read that article, and the previous ones.

Im a dummy so I kinda dismissed it.

But it must be important. So could some one hold my hand and explain it?

"Dust level max. 120 micron/cu. m

Now 151.2"

1st, please explain what "dust" is. Assume some kind of particles? If so what is their source/origin or better still what are they made of?

Is this like pollen or more like Kriptonite. And if its some of each/many, how much of each?

2nd, 151.2 micron/cu.m also leaves this me in the dark. How many microns are available in a cu/m?

Can terms like ppm or ppb be used instead so I can get a sense of what % we are talking about?

These might not even be the right Qs to ask, but I dunno, thats why Im asking.

[ferd54]

During the hot season the prevailing winds are normally from the South, S/E or S/W.... In the cold season, it's mainly from the north (China) and N/W. Rainy season, mainly from the North, N/W and with some storms from the West S/W...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree -- during the "burning" season the prevailing wind seems come from the south, then stacks up in the Chiang Mai "bowl." Surely starts picking up pollution in Lumphun, driving it northward, gathering (a lot) more in Chiang Mai and then sitting here. That said I have been to Pai and Mae Hon Song over Songkran and couldn't see a thing, and that's on the other side of big mountains, but that was from forest fires buring. Ah, there are so many different sources.

[Harmonica]

Maka,

Never mind the "Physics" terms. Let's talk simple terms.

Stop any farang on the street, cut him open and examine his lungs -- if you don't find a layer of soot, dust and grunge lining the walls .......

Then ask him his age (if, after the ordeal he is still alive ) -- if he looks about twice as old as his stated age, he is an expat here; if not, he is a newcomer.

Then look at his skin -- dried, blotched (even at 40) .... add your own adjectives here.

Wear a white shirt, roll down your car window & drive thru' central CM -- 30 minutes and the shirt will be soiled noticeably.

Kick up some dirt in a unpaved area (no farang body needed for this experiment!); that generally brown cloud you see is DUST.

Now combine smoke, dust, emissions, chemicals released from various burnings (adding color and hue to this combo) & the stuff that farangs here MUST BE smoking, and that my friend, is the haze I'm talking about!

Worse than Mexico City, Bombay or Bangcock!

A place for retirement?

A place for guaranteed respiratory disease(s)?

Paradise? .. as some Lalas have been calling it; Bah!

I'm here for one year; then I'm clearing out -- anywhere in the north, even a small city will be just fine.

"Micron" -- refers to diameter of particles.

A quote:

A small 5 micron dust particle can remain airborne for 30 minutes or more, and that gives it plenty of time to get lodged in your lungs, or foul up a nice paint job. You can't even see dust particles smaller than 2 microns, yet this fine powder is the most dangerous. larger 10 to 20micron dust will probably get trapped by the hairs and mucous of your upper respiratory system. .3 to 10 micron particles will penetrate deep into your lungs, and anything finer will most likely get exhaled.

Dyin ain't much of a livin!

[The Mask]

Maka,

Never mind the "Physics" terms.      Let's talk simple terms. 

Stop any farang on the street,  cut him open and examine his lungs -- if you don't find a layer of soot, dust and grunge lining the walls ....... 

Then ask him his age (if,  after the ordeal he is still alive  ) -- if he looks about twice as old as his stated age, he is an expat here; if not, he is a newcomer.

Then look at his skin -- dried, blotched (even at 40) .... add your own adjectives here.

Wear a white shirt, roll down your car window & drive thru' central CM -- 30 minutes and the shirt will be soiled noticeably. 

Kick up some dirt in a unpaved area (no farang body needed for this experiment!); that generally brown cloud you see is DUST.     

Now combine smoke, dust, emissions, chemicals released from various burnings  (adding color and hue to this combo) &  the stuff that farangs here MUST BE smoking, and that my friend,  is the haze I'm talking about!

Worse than Mexico City, Bombay or Bangcock! 

A place for retirement?   

A place for guaranteed respiratory disease(s)? 

Paradise? .. as some Lalas have been calling it;  Bah!

I'm here for one year; then I'm clearing out -- anywhere in the north, even a small city will be just fine. 

"Micron" -- refers to diameter of particles.

A quote: 

A small 5 micron dust particle can remain airborne for 30 minutes or more, and that gives it plenty of time to get lodged in your lungs, or foul up a nice paint job. You can't even see dust particles smaller than 2 microns, yet this fine powder is the most dangerous. larger 10 to 20micron dust will probably get trapped by the hairs and mucous of your upper respiratory system. .3 to 10 micron particles will penetrate deep into your lungs, and anything finer will most likely get exhaled.

Dyin ain't much of a livin! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you have any suggestions of other places in Thailand with negligible levels of pollution?.

[Harmonica]

Maka,

Never mind the "Physics" terms.       Let's talk simple terms. 

Stop any farang on the street,  cut him open and examine his lungs -- if you don't find a layer of soot, dust and grunge lining the walls .......  

Then ask him his age (if,  after the ordeal he is still alive  ) -- if he looks about twice as old as his stated age, he is an expat here; if not, he is a newcomer.

Then look at his skin -- dried, blotched (even at 40) .... add your own adjectives here.

Wear a white shirt, roll down your car window & drive thru' central CM -- 30 minutes and the shirt will be soiled noticeably.  

Kick up some dirt in a unpaved area (no farang body needed for this experiment!); that generally brown cloud you see is DUST.     

Now combine smoke, dust, emissions, chemicals released from various burnings  (adding color and hue to this combo) &  the stuff that farangs here MUST BE smoking, and that my friend,  is the haze I'm talking about!

Worse than Mexico City, Bombay or Bangcock! 

A place for retirement?    

A place for guaranteed respiratory disease(s)? 

Paradise? .. as some Lalas have been calling it;  Bah!

I'm here for one year; then I'm clearing out -- anywhere in the north, even a small city will be just fine.  

"Micron" -- refers to diameter of particles.

A quote: 

A small 5 micron dust particle can remain airborne for 30 minutes or more, and that gives it plenty of time to get lodged in your lungs, or foul up a nice paint job. You can't even see dust particles smaller than 2 microns, yet this fine powder is the most dangerous. larger 10 to 20micron dust will probably get trapped by the hairs and mucous of your upper respiratory system. .3 to 10 micron particles will penetrate deep into your lungs, and anything finer will most likely get exhaled.

Dyin ain't much of a livin!  

Do you have any suggestions of other places in Thailand with negligible levels of pollution?.

Based on what I personally know to be true -- low pollution places ..... Phuket, Koh Samui, Khao Lak, Krabi .... in the south; as for the north, don't know it well yet, but Chiang Rai might be OK, but haven't really checked it out yet.

Can't go wrong living in Phuket; tsunami worries? Bah!

[chiangrai57020]

but I haven't seen much field burning, or any forest fires lately, which are the main contributors to the visible form of air pollution around here, it think...

The pollutants from fires and field burnings usually put in their annual appearance around late-February.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, when it seems that you're wearing brown-tinted glasses

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Soory folks but Chiangrai is not any better! The farmers are all burning off their previous years rice crop (fields). Then, you have the smoke and haze coming from Burma, China and Laos. Pretty soon we will all have to wear some type of 'gas' mask to survive - AND that's no joke. Can anyone imagine what 'chemicals' we are breathing in during this time of year?

[maerim]

or Bangcock! 

Not going to live there then it sounds painfull.

"Micron" -- refers to diameter of particles.

A micron is a millionth of a meter or if you like one thousand of a millimetere, pretty hard to spot with the naked eye especially if those bloody farmers are burning the fields.

[maerim]

You can't even see dust particles smaller than 2 microns,

How very true unless of course you just happen to have a scanning electron microscope knocking around the house somewhere or your name is Clark Kent.

[Ajarn]

A four year old thread on CM Poluttion. Very interesting comments ... Boy I was a LOT smarter then!

Edited December 13, 2008 by Ajarn

[realthaideal]

Deja vu. Thread vu. Eyes burning vu. But they keep burning anyway vu. Newbies don't understand humidity or inversion vu.

Check Priceless's data crunching for some 'actual facts' about how the air is this year. And search past CM threads for what to do, how to get active, si vous plez.

[Ulysses G.]

I'm sorry to be reviving this rather boring thread, but I promised earlier to come back with a "proper post".

The OP asked the question 'Is it my imagination, or is air quality getting progressively worse all year round in Chiang Mai'?

Answer: It is your imagination. Actually the last three months (September, October and November) have been the "best" (i.e. with the lowest pollution level) during the period 2000-2008 with levels 30, 38 and 32% lower than the averages for the corresponding months.

For a longer perspective, see the following graph of 12-month averages:

The graph rather clearly shows that the air quality has improved considerably during this period. Please observe, though, that the trend line is not a forecast. We can only hope that the trend will continue, to make a proper forecast would require a lot of information and skills that I don't have access to.

One of the "usual suspects" (Mapguy) claimed that we have had 'relatively high pollution rates in recent days for the season'.

Truth: So far this December the average PM<10 pollution level has been 34.3 µg/m3. This should be compared with the monthly average for the years 2000-2008, which is 49.9 µg/m3.

I certainly agree that further improving the CM air quality would be a very desirable thing. However, I don't think that anybody is helped by the desinformation frequently disseminated on this and other fora.

/ Priceless

The facts, Jack.

[chiang mai]

I'm sorry to be reviving this rather boring thread, but I promised earlier to come back with a "proper post".

The OP asked the question 'Is it my imagination, or is air quality getting progressively worse all year round in Chiang Mai'?

Answer: It is your imagination. Actually the last three months (September, October and November) have been the "best" (i.e. with the lowest pollution level) during the period 2000-2008 with levels 30, 38 and 32% lower than the averages for the corresponding months.

For a longer perspective, see the following graph of 12-month averages:

The graph rather clearly shows that the air quality has improved considerably during this period. Please observe, though, that the trend line is not a forecast. We can only hope that the trend will continue, to make a proper forecast would require a lot of information and skills that I don't have access to.

One of the "usual suspects" (Mapguy) claimed that we have had 'relatively high pollution rates in recent days for the season'.

Truth: So far this December the average PM<10 pollution level has been 34.3 µg/m3. This should be compared with the monthly average for the years 2000-2008, which is 49.9 µg/m3.

I certainly agree that further improving the CM air quality would be a very desirable thing. However, I don't think that anybody is helped by the desinformation frequently disseminated on this and other fora.

/ Priceless

The facts, Jack.

I believe that in a separate thread on this same subject we have identified a part of the facts and have agreed that the other part of the facts, the human impact and health studies of the population are missing, Jack!

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry, but I can not seem to locate this thread with everyone agreeing with you. Could you provide a link?

[Mapguy]

Fascinating that this very old thread was dug up somehow! Best laid to rest and moving on to the several threads since posted that provide much more information as well as opinion.

[chiang mai]

Sorry, but I can not seem to locate this thread with everyone agreeing with you. Could you provide a link?

Try Post 72 here where all agree the need for health data http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Air-Quality-...01#entry2402601.

And in that thread folks are trying to have the debate sensibly and understand the issues rather than just saying, yes it is or no it isn't so no need for you to run interference!

[Ulysses G.]

I have gained great respect for Mapguy over the years and I think that he knows that I want the best for Chiang Mai, as he does. However, that he would agree with you does not surprise me as you and he pretty much have the same beliefs, but many other people do not agree with them.

To be honest I have been astounded at a few posts the last few days. I'm listening to people come in the shop all day long and talk about how wonderful Chiang Mai is at this time of year, and then you get a post like this:

ive got a couple of sensors. my nose and my mouth. the AIR IS HORRENDOUS EVERYONE IS SICK> NO ONE CAN BREATHE>BUT CERTAIN PEOPLE THINK THE AIR IS OK. IT IS NOT.

THE AIR AT THE MOMENT IS AWFUL BECAUSE YOU CANT BREATHE.

DO YOU FOR ONE MINUTE THINK THAT JUST MAYBE HERE IN THAILAND THAT ANY SORT OF POLLUTION MEASURING FACILITY MIGHT HAVE ITS FIGURES GERRyMANDERED, MANIPULATED, FIXED.

or should we just look at doi suthep and say its haze.

I take no pleasure in this air. My kids are sick, everyone nearly without exception i meet have a problem with breathing.

THE AIR IS terrible

***flame removed**

99% of the people in Chiang Mai don't feel like this right now - In fact they feel the exact opposite - but you put something on the internet and people start believing it.

Tourism in the beginning of the Hot Season has been absolutely ruined by exaggerations about the pollution at that time of year, and now it looks like a few folks are shooting to ruin it all year round. It seems obvious to me that some people are distorting the facts about pollution for their own reasons - for example, a lot of expats want less foreigners to come here - and do not mind a little exageration to keep them away.

There is a lot of good information on the internet, but there is also a lot of information that scares the average person, when it only applies to a very small minority. Perhaps people with medical problems relating to their lungs should avoid Chiang Mai at certain times of year, but they should probably avoid a lot of other places as well and nobody is talking about that. The air in Bangkok and other cities is normally much worse than Chiang Mai.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[chiang mai]

I have gained great respect for Mapguy over the years and I think that he knows that I want the best for Chiang Mai, as he does. However, that he would agree with you does not surprise me as you and he pretty much have the same beliefs, but many other people do not agree with them.

To be honest I have been astounded at a few posts the last few days. I'm listening to people come in the shop all day long and talk about how wonderful Chiang Mai is at this time of year, and then you get a post like this:

ive got a couple of sensors. my nose and my mouth. the AIR IS HORRENDOUS EVERYONE IS SICK> NO ONE CAN BREATHE>BUT CERTAIN PEOPLE THINK THE AIR IS OK. IT IS NOT.

THE AIR AT THE MOMENT IS AWFUL BECAUSE YOU CANT BREATHE.

DO YOU FOR ONE MINUTE THINK THAT JUST MAYBE HERE IN THAILAND THAT ANY SORT OF POLLUTION MEASURING FACILITY MIGHT HAVE ITS FIGURES GERRyMANDERED, MANIPULATED, FIXED.

or should we just look at doi suthep and say its haze.

I take no pleasure in this air. My kids are sick, everyone nearly without exception i meet have a problem with breathing.

THE AIR IS terrible

***flame removed**

99% of the people in Chiang Mai don't feel like this right now - In fact they feel the exact opposite - but you put something on the internet and people start believing it.

Tourism in the beginning of the Hot Season has been absolutely ruined by exaggerations about the pollution at that time of year, and now it looks like a few folks are shooting to ruin it all year round. It seems obvious to me that some people are distorting the facts about pollution for their own reasons - for example, a lot of expats want less foreigners to come here - and do not mind a little exageration to keep them away.

There is a lot of good information on the internet, but there is also a lot of information that scares the average person, when it only applies to a very small minority. Perhaps people with medical problems relating to their lungs should avoid Chiang Mai at certain times of year, but they should probably avoid a lot of other places as well and nobody is talking about that. The air in Bangkok and other cities is normally much worse than Chiang Mai.

That sounds a lot better and more balanced so thank you for that, I was beginning to lose confidence for a moment! Totally agree that posts such as the one you mention are alarmist and do nothing positive to help readers understand the nature or the degree of the problem or it's likely causes but I suspect many of us have been through a similar phase, I certainly have. Nobody in their right mind wants CM, its businesses or its population to suffer but I understand the frustration of those who are looking for more clear answers on pollution. I simply don't believe though that there are folks who are looking to tar CM with the pollution brush year round, that view simply cannot be supported.

From my perspective I believe there is a problem with air quality in CM although my bigger problem is that I cannot quantify it hence I don't understand the scale of the problem. I recognize the problem is limited in duration and that for most of the year the air quality is just fine and during those times CM is a great place to live. But whilst it does nobody any good to have people say the air is bad year round, it's unhelpful for others to suggest there is no problem at all, I think it's all about balance and having a realistic view.

Edited December 14, 2008 by chiang mai

[Ulysses G.]

That sounds a lot better and more balanced so thank you for that, I was beginning to lose confidence for a moment! Totally agree that posts such as the one you mention are alarmist and do nothing positive to help readers understand the nature or the degree of the problem or it's likely causes but I suspect many of us have been through a similar phase, I certainly have. Nobody in their right mind wants CM, its businesses or its population to suffer but I understand the frustration of those who are looking for more clear answers on pollution. I simply don't believe though that there are folks who are looking to tar CM with the pollution brush year round, that view simply cannot be supported.

From my perspective I believe there is a problem with air quality in CM although my bigger problem is that I cannot quantify it hence I don't understand the scale of the problem. I recognize the problem is limited in duration and that for most of the year the air quality is just fine and during those times CM is a great place to live. But whilst it does nobody any good to have people say the air is bad year round, it's unhelpful for others to suggest there is no problem at all, I think it's all about balance and having a realistic view.

It seems to me, that you and I mostly agree. When I first started responding to these threads, I might not have expressed it very well, but my problem has always been with the alarmist posts that you also question. It is not always obvious when someone first starts posting about the problem, exactly where they stand.

[Jamesjimmy]

I have gained great respect for Mapguy over the years and I think that he knows that I want the best for Chiang Mai, as he does. However, that he would agree with you does not surprise me as you and he pretty much have the same beliefs, but many other people do not agree with them.

To be honest I have been astounded at a few posts the last few days. I'm listening to people come in the shop all day long and talk about how wonderful Chiang Mai is at this time of year, and then you get a post like this:

ive got a couple of sensors. my nose and my mouth. the AIR IS HORRENDOUS EVERYONE IS SICK> NO ONE CAN BREATHE>BUT CERTAIN PEOPLE THINK THE AIR IS OK. IT IS NOT.

THE AIR AT THE MOMENT IS AWFUL BECAUSE YOU CANT BREATHE.

DO YOU FOR ONE MINUTE THINK THAT JUST MAYBE HERE IN THAILAND THAT ANY SORT OF POLLUTION MEASURING FACILITY MIGHT HAVE ITS FIGURES GERRyMANDERED, MANIPULATED, FIXED.

or should we just look at doi suthep and say its haze.

I take no pleasure in this air. My kids are sick, everyone nearly without exception i meet have a problem with breathing.

THE AIR IS terrible

***flame removed**

99% of the people in Chiang Mai don't feel like this right now - In fact they feel the exact opposite - but you put something on the internet and people start believing it.

Tourism in the beginning of the Hot Season has been absolutely ruined by exaggerations about the pollution at that time of year, and now it looks like a few folks are shooting to ruin it all year round. It seems obvious to me that some people are distorting the facts about pollution for their own reasons - for example, a lot of expats want less foreigners to come here - and do not mind a little exageration to keep them away.

There is a lot of good information on the internet, but there is also a lot of information that scares the average person, when it only applies to a very small minority. Perhaps people with medical problems relating to their lungs should avoid Chiang Mai at certain times of year, but they should probably avoid a lot of other places as well and nobody is talking about that. The air in Bangkok and other cities is normally much worse than Chiang Mai.

By saying that 99% of the people agree with you only goes to show that you have a hidden agenda,,, I for one am very surprised you would say such a thing.... for the most part most all your other postings on the forum have been fair and balanced....Me thinks if you were to set up a poll and ask the residents of C/M what they think about the pollution it would be to the tune of 60/40,,,, not 99/1

[Ulysses G.]

I think that during Feb. or March, you might be correct, but not during the first half of December.

However, I am only guessing.

[chiang mai]

I think that during Feb. or March, you might be correct, but not during the first half of December.

However, I am only guessing.

If I had to take a WAG at those numbers I would suggest something in the order of:

January thru April, 80% say there is a problem to some degree, and

May through December 95% say there is no problem.

[realthaideal]

Sometimes when you cook alot of delicious hamburgers there is alot of smoke that will fill your backyard up and then blow in the street. The neighbors will see and smell the smoke. Most burger places have a fan exhaust system directing the deliciously greasy smoke straight up. I bet the Arby's knockoff and Mike's have the best smoke components in the air around town.

[john b good]

Now how can you do something about this? I would really like to make an effort to help out solve the parts of this problem that can be solved...

I think that you can forget about "solving" this problem.

Thailand is light years behind any realistic environmental controls.

The vehicles belch fumes (& smoke) the denizen's burn their rubbish, the rivers are open sewers, the factories dump their waste and then there are natural causes such as inversion conditions.

Forget it, if you are over 35-40 it will not change in your lifetime

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

Courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference.

In closing (this post) I personally think that at this moment in time that there is no real big problem regaring air quality.

Just because you can't see Doi Suthep it don't mean the end of the world. I was on the highway going north a few days back and I could hardly see the car in front. "it's called fog" or ask your GF "mawk"

[ollylama]

just bought a bike and i've been really surprised by the dusty gunk that's accumulated on my skin by the time i've arrived home after a couple of hours. i personally don't think it's polluted at all (though i hail from los angeles so i might have a high tolerance) but my skin testifies to the contrary.

of course, the gunk might just be my own - haven't exercised much in the last few months. maybe it's just a backlog of burger grease.

o