Suvarnabhumi PAD Protest Continues

[h90]

Can PAD people fly airplanes? They have a READY MADE AIR FORCE sitting on the runways. 88 HUGE JETS waiting to be manned and used as they see fit. All very very scary to think about.

IS ANYONE GUARDING THOSE PLANES WITHOUT AN AGENDA?

I personally wish the PM would resign now and make an exit out of the country like his B.I.L.

Thai Airways labor union supports PAD so there are people who can fly them.

[rainman]

The airport is rapidly turning into a street market. To me it seems like most of these people don't have a better place to sleep at home so they come to live at the airport. Sleeping on streets and under bridges seems to be the norm for this scum.

[bulmercke]

I'm leaving this post until tomorrow unless I see it kick off on TV in the bar later.

Post of the day to Koo82. EDIT and CATTOC. Just seen it but very good post.

This is how many of my Thai friend see the situation as well. I have heard thias defend Thaksin very strongly along these same lines personally.

He really was not the villain they set him up as. I remember the stagnant totally corrupt elitist set ups of the 90's. The vast majority of falangs on this board have no idea of Thailand. No idea of how the Army and elite have hamstrung this Government from even before it was elected. It's sickening, but why try and convince those that think a PAD world would be better. Perhaps they are better in ignorant bliss.

This "educated" clique use the rest of the country (particularly the north) as a source of cheap prostitutes, cheap workers and cheap commodities that they can sell on at vastly inflated prices. They are the parasites of Thailand and hopefully on the way out, even if PAD do delay this process for a bit longer.

Any of the annoying PAD sheep who wants a source or proof of this can get it easily. Just go round the beer bars, massage shops, cheap foodcarts, hawkers, litter collectors, maids, cleaners, hotel security guards, carpark attendants, street cleaners, gardeners etc. Ask them where they come from!! It's almost never Bangkok.

Think more Robin Hood when you think of Thaksin and careful what you wish for! He did a lot of things good for the people of the country that many falangs never get to meet.... the real rural working thais, not the ones that tell them they are handsome every five minutes.

Thanks Koo82

Did he really do a lot of things good for the country?

He sanctioned the deaths of hundreds at Khue See and Tak Bai - as well as the 'war on drugs' in which over two thousand Thai citizens lost their lives - of which not one single case has yet to come to court -

[baht&sold]

Personally I'm none too pleased about the main airports being shut by the 'yellow mob', nor about gangs of 'raving reds', nor about ANY prospect of a coup (which I think is a rather limited likelihood, especially if this can wrap-up peacefully).

It looks like this 'may' be Tuesday with the PPP and coalition dissolved for vote-fraud (caught on video in Yongyuth's case, thus an open and shut case). However, Thaksin & Co will not take this outcome very well and may 'sponsor' all sorts of ongoing actions by the reds (and I doubt hand-clappers or foot clappers will be their weapons of choice).

Also, a guilty verdict would mean many in the Somchai cabinet will be 'banned' from politics for 5 years like their TRT mates and prevented from running in new elections. Not that this prevents them from having yet another crop of proxies run... This would increase the bank-roll of sponsoring even more new proxies but Thai politics is all about 'return on investment' from a former CEO/PM's point of view... (and evidently, the ROI is very lucrative;)

First, let's hope the PAD vacate the airports after Tues (should, if PPP is dissolved) and then, barring a sponsored spate of retaliatory attacks by Thaksin via the reds, hopefully on to new elections within a reasonable time frame (and PM Somchai can spend 'quality time' with Ya-o-whoppa, or go golfing, as he saw fit to do yesterday...)

Edited November 30, 2008 by baht&sold

[bulmercke]

The airport is rapidly turning into a street market. To me it seems like most of these people don't have a better place to sleep at home so they come to live at the airport. Sleeping on streets and under bridges seems to be the norm for this scum.

You have no idea of why these people are here. And further - what motivates these people.

[Tigs]

fruity

reference your post 1203

I would just delete if i were you.!

Edited November 30, 2008 by Tigs

[kurce]

The airport is rapidly turning into a street market. To me it seems like most of these people don't have a better place to sleep at home so they come to live at the airport. Sleeping on streets and under bridges seems to be the norm for this scum.

Gotta give em one thing, they're a well organised bunch. But do they turn the lights off so people can sleep?

[Kerryd]

The airport is rapidly turning into a street market. To me it seems like most of these people don't have a better place to sleep at home so they come to live at the airport. Sleeping on streets and under bridges seems to be the norm for this scum.

You should go straight down there and point that out to them. Don't hesitate, go now !

I'm sure all they are waiting for is someone like you to point out the error of their ways to them, and they'll all disperse peacefully.

[chrislarsson]

I've added some notes & thoughts on chrislarsson's post.

1. Economic Facts and Statistics

The GDP grew from THB 4.9 trillion at the end of 2001 to THB 7.1 trillion at the end of 2006 [within a growing commercial environment, mostly driven by the Chinese import expansion. This was not a result of policy actions, though it was helped by the actions of the previous administration, enacting IMF based reforms].

Thailand repaid its debts to the International Monetary Fund 2 years ahead of schedule. [This was simple nationalistic grandstanding with no economic benefit.]

Public sector debt fell from 57% of GDP in January 2001 to 41% in September 2006 [but was expected to grow dramatically as deferred requirements came due. This happened].

Foreign exchange reserves doubled from US$30 billion in 2001 to US$64 billion in 2006 [Yes, this was part of the concerted ASEAN wide plan to create a 'buffer' to reduce exposure thereby trying to avoid another financial collapse (Review other US currency holdings in the region).]

The economy in the Northeast, rose 40 per cent while nation-wide poverty fell from 21.3 per cent to 11.3 per cent. [both of these figures are subject to considerable dispute]

2. Introduced subsidized universal health care and low-cost universal access to anti-retroviral HIV medication (ARVs).

This policy is criticized as being populist. MedicAid was introduced in America (1965) when its economy was on a similar level as Thailand. Seems to me like a fair and sensible policy. [The health care proposal was in track prior to TRT winning the election. The key proposals had been made years before, and had been adopted by TRT as their own. A key issue here was that TRT was advised that there would need to be a substantive budget increase to make the transition work. (note before there was subsidised health care, this was not starting from a zero position, indeed elements of the proposal made it clear that existing programmes would be brought into the scheme). The failure to invest, made the programme subject to key critical failures. It is an oddity, or not, that a business leader seemed completely unaware of the requirement to create an effective infrastructure to support the scheme. Today the, now free scheme, limps along serving no one effectively. It is a hidden cost of the TRT administrations focus on deliver 'something' and then move on. Others' may recognise this as redolent of the political fashion 'the third way', adherents including the Clinton administration, and the New Labour government who were both technical advisors to the TRT campaign.]

3. Introduced low-interest agricultural loans to villages

This policy was also criticized as being populist. However, Muhammad Yunus from Bangladesh received the Nobel Peace Prize in 2006 for giving this kind of microloans to poor people in 2006.

It is also accused by some as vote-buying. If this is vote-buying, then everything is vote-buying. There is no policy that will not benefit some group in the society more than another. [The problem here is that the loans were not a managed resource, unlike Yunus' techniques. In reality, much of the money contributed to a 'retail boom' focused on semi-durables, and not on agricultural development. This was not a case of people being foolish, but a reaction, since the missing component was a concomitant process designed to reduce the monopolistic & cartel like processing of agricultural products.

4. Introduced the "One District, One Scholarship" program which provided one student from a low-income family in each district with a scholarship to study overseas. [This one infamously dissolved into a plethora of unpaid loans, and a substantial percentage of recipients who most assuredly were not from “low-income” environments.]

5. The War on Drugs

According to Human Rights Watch more than 2,000 people were killed, and many of them may not have been involved in the drug trade. This issue does not seem to be a key issue to the overthrow of Thaksin. [For reasons we cannot discuss herein, but it does touch on the rule of law issue. The perception was, both before TRT and subsequently, that the privilege in Thailand means just that “private law”. Without an acknowledged legal structure, viewed as supportive and predictable, any country will struggle to be a centre for investment, let alone a safe place to live. An irony here is that some post here, with relish, how they pay 100 baht to avoid wearing a motorcycle helmet, without considering for a moment how this is yet another example of the failed legal structure.]

6. The Insurgency in Southern Thailand

Thaksin's tough policies in this conflict may have eliminated chances to reach a peaceful settlement. [Many would argue that by removing the Army based command (which included long lasting inter community links) and replacing this with 'friends of Thaksin', that he was responsible for removing the very structure which could have provided intelligence, and even a safety valve, for growing tensions, which by and large had been quiescent for years.]

7. Corruption Charges

According to Transparency International, Thailand was actually perceived as less corrupt in 2005 than 2001. Most corruption charges against Thaksin seem to involve conflict of interest [Yes, however, such conflicts at a governmental level create governance issues.]

8. The Sale of Shin Corporation

Appears to be the issue that tipped the scale resulting in the military coup. I do not fully understand what upset people the most. Was it the 49% sale of a Thai company to foreigners? Or was it because the sale was tax-free (what does the law say about this)? [This is a major topic all of its own, however, SCorp had been on the block for years, but a prerequisite was that the purchaser had to buy the stock through the exchange, thereby obviating, legally, the tax burden (but only on that step of the transaction, hence the whole Ample Rich issue). The change in the legal framework, which permitted the sale had been put in place by the TRT administration, and by and large was viewed as a precursor to a sale.]

9. Accumulation of Power and Wealth

It is often argued that Thaksin’s accumulation of power and wealth, put checks and balances out of order and the nation at risk. The argument would be that even if Thaksin lost an election in the future, he would be so powerful that he would still remain in charge in practice. This is an argument impossible to prove though. [but his present and past actions are supportive of the 'Thailand as a Thaksin fiefdom' argument. This is where the polarity really occurs, if you view Thaksin as no more or less corrupt that others, and beneficial to the country, the loss of the few remaining elements of a 'liberal democracy' may be a small price to pay, others view him, and what he represents, as ultimately destructive of the very democracy which through the '97 constitution gave him such power. Note this is not a obsession about him, but an acknowledgment that the '97 constitution had one goal, that was to provide the PM with a tool set to resist coalition fragmentation. One might be tempted to recall the old saw, be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

Regards

/edit typo//

Thanks for a very constructive response.

To me this look like the kind of criticism any opposition party would have against the ruling government in a developed democracy. Priorities could be set differently. Opinions about the effects of policies and the accuracy of statistics are disputed. Conflicts of interests may be less serious, but they are still there. Even if politicians are not directly involved, lobbyists are there and they are often successful in looking after interests of minorities.

My main question still remains. What price is it worth to pay to ensure that Thaksin can not come back into power. It would certainly have been worth the price to remove Hitler (who was democratically elected) by any means. Does this apply to Thaksin as well?

[rainman]

No idea if anyone has noticed this, but ...

Thai TV is reporting that airplanes are departing from Suvarnabhumi

[doczenith83]

No idea if anyone has noticed this, but ...

Thai TV is reporting that airplanes are departing from Suvarnabhumi

A Thai friend was telling me that in the news they said that Thai Airways is sending planes all over the world to pick up stranded Thais or Residents. Not sure of if this is entirely true.

[henryalleman]

By ruining the country? The PPP will be dissolved in 2 days anyways. Why stand up a week before and ruin the country if the outcome is the same, on the same day? Explain that?

You could do this yourself, by just going back to some of last weeks posts.

1. The PM and followers wanted to amend the constitution to revoke the sections dealing with corruption that got the TRT and Thaskin banned.

2. They wanted to do away with the Privy Council, thus eliminating the influence of the Monarchy.

Its correct because they are not elected, and they can not be sanctioned by the people in

elections.

3. Restructure the reporting of various government agencies....

a. Currently the courts do not report to the PM

Should be like that, because the juridical system should be independent

b. Currently the military does not report to the PM

The military should always be under control of the government ergo parliament

with this draft approved, the ability to grant amnesty would be changed to the PM, and he would become the defacto Monarch of Thailand much as Thaskin was moving in the direction of becoming.

These are the simple reason the PAD could not allow the government to continue to function. Had the PPP been successful, the entire structure would have been forever changed in Thailand.

Hope this clarifies the question for you.

In a genuine democracy there is a separation of power

1- Legislative power(the parliament) elected by the population.

2- the juridical power (the courts)

3- the executive power (the government)

So in a genuine democracy there is no room for an privy council or the military.

Notice that the executive power is only on the 3th place, because they are under control of the legislative power. And that an constitutional court can check if a new law is not against the constitution, and can ask the legislative power to review this law.

And an PM is only the CEO, who is under the control of his share holders (the public)

All of them work independent from each other, and in no way the executive power can influence the decisions of the legislative and juridical power.

Also in most democracies a government can't change the constitution immediately.. Normally its the parliament who point out which atricles should be changed, and only after a new election the new elected parliament is able to vote them, with an 75% majority.

So if you make this litmus test, Thailand can't be called a democracy.

[brahmburgers]

Though I support PAD's right to demonstrate peacefully, I resent that anyone brings a child to such a demonstration. at the very least, have a day-care center far away from where harmful and possibly lethal activity could happen at any time.

PAD people , go ahead and demonstrate, but please leave the grandparents and kids somewhere safe!

[yadetout]

At least 30,000 had gathered by 9 p.m. (1400 GMT), most wearing the red that is associated with their cause. They carried Thai flags, red flags and red heart signs with Thaksin's picture.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/i...lBrandChannel=0

any other source can confirm that??

[permanent_disorder]

This is a hoax, Can you give us the source of it. The EU did not give any statements like this.

French embassy website genuine enough?

http://www.ambafrance-th.org/spip.php?article1542

It wasn't the EU per se. Rather it was from EU delegates.

It was from the EU's Delegation to Thailand: "Delegation of the European Commission to Thailand has issued a press release:"

The only place I can find the quoted statement is on the French Embassy's site (Ambassade de France en Thaïlande)

On another site was this: "The European Union Ambassadors in Bangkok" regarding a statement issued on 26 Nov, referencing the deteriorating situation, but nothing about the airport.

what is this for? funny.

why shouldn't the EU issue such a statement?

and it's the EU. and you found it on the french embassy website because France holds at the moment the Presidency of the Council of the European Union. in the EU they rotate that job every half year,

i guess that puts the French Ambassador also in the position to speak on behalf of the Council of the EU, or the presidency of the council, or the EU.

and on the French embassy= EU Council embassy website it's called "Declaration of the European Union on the situation in Thailand" isn't that whatever?

it's a statement from saturday, so guess what those EU-buerocratics do on the weekend? nothing. if your are in the distribution list of the Councils press center you will get your Fax tommorrow.

you found an other european union statement regarding the current situation? why don't quote a line or give us the url for this. lot's of people from EU countries here. maybe want to know what is the diplomatic answer to this. just because you want keep strict on topic?

Bangkok Post has this today:

-------------------------------------------

US, UK AND EU CONDEMN AIRPORT CLOSURES

BANGKOK POST AND AFP

The United States, Britain and the European Union have issued statements urging anti-government protesters to vacate Bangkok's airports, saying the rallies are inappropriate and "seriously damaging" Thailand's image.

The US statement by Gordon Duguid, acting deputy spokesman of the Department of State said: "The US is deeply concerned about the actions of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) in seizing Bangkok's international and domestic airports, preventing the free movement of people and goods.

"While we respect the right to freedom of expression, seizing an airport is not an appropriate means of protest.

"We urge the PAD to walk away from the airports peacefully.

"We hope that this situation can be resolved without violence and in accordance with the law."

Britain's Foreign and Commonwealth Office Minister Bill Rammell said yesterday that the situation facing the many British nationals stranded in Bangkok is frustrating and deeply concerning.

"Our priority is to help them get home, and I am grateful for the support provided by the Thai authorities to those affected," he said.

"Our consular teams on the ground and in London are doing all they can to help. They are taking numerous calls and are meeting as many British nationals as possible. Our travel advice is regularly updated and I urge people to monitor it closely.

"I call on all parties in Thailand to take steps to resolve the crisis and restore public order, respecting the rule of law and the country's democratic institutions.

....

continue here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/301108_News/30Nov2008_news05.php

[rainman]

PAD people , go ahead and demonstrate, but please leave the grandparents and kids somewhere safe!

They care as much about their children and grandparents as they care about the 1 million people who have lost their jobs in the past week and the billions in damages they have caused.

[chrislarsson]

Transparency International Corruption index

If I remember correctly this index doesn't have tools to account for corruption done in Thaksin style.

Thaksin overhauled country's civil service and there were many positive results coming from that in terms of efficiency and less corruption at lower levels.

PAD is angry at what happened at the top, however.

If you think they are overreacting - consider that one excise tax deal has given his company over a hundred billion baht, enough to provide free education to the whole country for several years. Transparency Index wouldn't catch that because Thaksin was the PM, in their eyes he just legally issued a new law.

That is probably correct. There is a large difference between big and small corruption. Small corruption (e.g taking bribes) is the most visible and likely the kind of corruption that makes the largest impact in the transparency index. And Thaksin is mostly about big corruption.

Small corruption is mostly eradicated in developed countries, but I am not sure if big corruption is. For instance, take the example of Dick Cheney and Karl Rove. It is quite well known that they were the sources that exposed the CIA operative, Valerie Plame, to revenge her husband's exposure of White House lies to justify the invasion of Iraq. How come they are not in jail, and not even any legal process ongoing? This is nothing but big corruption.

[ozterix]

I believe some people on this forum are, by their own remarks, showing a lot of their twisted personality and sadistic tendencies. And they probably believe they are brilliant.

A forum like this should remain open to all but in some cases, too much is too much. People like this rainman should simply be banned from it, and there are a few more that I feel so sad to hear what goes on in their mind. What on earth are they doing here? having so little respect for their hosts, contemplating so much hate and torture for innocent because they dared to spoil their fun trying to fight a cause very dear to their heart. And even if they were wrong, this is their country and they have the right to handle it without our criticism.

why don't you go home in your brilliant country and leave us all here to take care of the scum, we love them...

flg

[GlenOrd]

Though I support PAD's right to demonstrate peacefully, I resent that anyone brings a child to such a demonstration. at the very least, have a day-care center far away from where harmful and possibly lethal activity could happen at any time.

PAD people , go ahead and demonstrate, but please leave the grandparents and kids somewhere safe!

You must be naive. Have you not heard the term "human shield". The child is the most effect one.

[sriracha john]

Prince Frederick and Princess Mary. Oh to be rich ... hundreds of Australians are still stuck at Bangkok airport, but leaving Thailand was no problem for Princess Mary who simply stepped onto a corporate jet and flew home. / Reuters

Getting out of Thailand? No problem

PRINCESS Mary and Prince Frederik have flown out of Thailand on a small corporate jet from a military airport as thousands of others remain stranded.

Danish news agency Ritzau reported the Danish crown prince and Princess boarded their corporate jet on Friday, citing royal spokeswoman Lene Balleby.

The couple flew into the tiny Hua Hin airport, about 200 kilometres south west of Bangkok, shortly before the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) took control of Bangkok international airport on Tuesday afternoon.

Their three-day visit was organised as part of a Danish trade delegation visit to mark 150 years of diplomatic relations between the two countries.

Their children, Prince Christian and Princess Isabella remained at home.

All commercial flights to Bangkok have been grounded and travellers stuck at Bangkok’s Suvarnabhumi International airport are becoming desperate to leave.

AP reported hundreds gathered at Thai Airways' cramped ticket office in Bangkok on Saturday seeking a way out.

Slumped in chairs or out smoking on the street outside the office, travellers swapped tales of being stuck in the airport for 23 hours or ending up in a cockroach-infested hotel.

"As time goes on, it becomes more and more stressful," Julie Lewis, a 46-year-old manicurist from Devon, England, who came to Thailand for a wedding, told AP. "This has really put a complete damper on the trip. Our last memory will be the fact that this happened."

Some have taken buses hundreds of kilometres to airports on the southern island of Phuket or in the northern city of Chiang Mai or overland to neighbouring Cambodia and Malaysia.

Others headed to U-tapao military base, which has been opened for commercial traffic about 190 km south-east of Bangkok.

Thai Airways has arranged flights from U-tapao and some airlines including Malaysia, China Eastern, Emirates, SAS and Cathay Pacific have sent planes to pick up passengers there. But the tiny airport was overwhelmed by the influx.

The Australian Government is in talks with Qantas in a desperate bid to find a way to rescue hundreds of Australians caught in the siege.

Transport Minister Anthony Albanese spoke on Saturday with the airline's chief Alan Joyce in a bid to find a way to pluck the Australians out of the city, Foreign Minister Stephen Smith told ABC TV today.

The Government and Qantas are looking at two evacuation possibilities - a military airport about 140 kilometres from Bangkok, or Phuket airport.

"That is dependent on getting access to the airports," Mr Smith said.

Mr Smith said the government was fed up with the blockade.

Demonstrators took control of Suvarnabhumi airport on Tuesday and the smaller Don Muang domestic airport on Wednesday.

"We are becoming increasingly frustrated with what's happening in Thailand," Mr Smith said.

"We've got hundreds of Australians stranded."

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade urged those in Bangkok to keep clear of the airport.

"Australians remaining in Bangkok are urged to stay away from these airports until further notice," a spokesman said.

"The duration of airport closures or how long the emergency decree will remain in place are not known at this stage."

- The Australian / 2008-11-30

[chutai]

why don't you go home in your brilliant country and leave us all here to take care of the scum, we love them...

Iraq and Afghanistan ? I don't know which other posts that you're referring to in your misty-eyed love. But my take on it would be that to criticise a military backed mob who are ruining the country shows far greater concern for its people than any proclamation of teenage angst.

[GlenOrd]

Thai TV is reporting that 20 airplanes have been allowed to leave Suvarnabhumi.

Why fly them out empty? Average 250 pax / flight, it should take 5,000 pax with them.

[rainman]

People like this rainman should simply be banned from it, and there are a few more that I feel so sad to hear what goes on in their mind.

Why? Because I write the truth? I write nothing but the truth. If you can't accept it, I can't help you.

Tell me if I'm lying when I'm saying that 1 million Thais have lost their jobs in the last week.

Tell me if I'm lying when I'm saying that Thailand and its people have lost billions in damages every single day.

Tell me if I'm lying when I'm saying that whether the airport is blocked or not, the PPP will be dissolved on Tuesday anyways.

To me, the PAD are a mob of armed domestic terrorists. To you, they may be your best friends. To each his own. The PAD are forcing their opinions upon others. Why should others stay quiet?

[Moonrakers]

I see that PB is online.

I am hoping for some potential sound bites for future posts, or some song lyrics maybe.

[ukrules]

At least 30,000 had gathered by 9 p.m. (1400 GMT), most wearing the red that is associated with their cause. They carried Thai flags, red flags and red heart signs with Thaksin's picture.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/i...lBrandChannel=0

any other source can confirm that??

I would be highly surprised if this large group of people don't attempt to go to the airport to confront the demonstrators there.

[phaethon]

Time to calm down...

Time for a cute break:

[BeauKarl]

Thai TV is reporting that 20 airplanes have been allowed to leave Suvarnabhumi.

Why fly them out empty? Average 250 pax / flight, it should take 5,000 pax with them.

Doubt they would be able to use checkin desks

[anothertorres]

Isn't that odd, considering how some have been describing them as terrorists, and a violent mob, and nothing but criminals ? And yet, millions of dollars of goods sit there on display untouched, protected (in some cases) by a piece of stretch wrap plastic.

there's kind of a difference between terrorism and sneak thievery

[britmaveric]

At least 30,000 had gathered by 9 p.m. (1400 GMT), most wearing the red that is associated with their cause. They carried Thai flags, red flags and red heart signs with Thaksin's picture.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/i...lBrandChannel=0

any other source can confirm that??

I would be highly surprised if this large group of people don't attempt to go to the airport to confront the demonstrators there.

Let's hope they do, so we can put an end to this circus at the airport.

[rainman]

At least 30,000 had gathered by 9 p.m. (1400 GMT), most wearing the red that is associated with their cause. They carried Thai flags, red flags and red heart signs with Thaksin's picture.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/i...lBrandChannel=0

any other source can confirm that??

I would be highly surprised if this large group of people don't attempt to go to the airport to confront the demonstrators there.

If the police would be doing their job, they wouldn't need to.