Democrats To Form New Coalition Government

[marshbags]

What are the faschist PAD and their democrat instruments views on

1. One person one vote ( 1/1 )

2.Ethnic Cleansing ( E.C )

International Community looking on.

TROLL material 100% IMHO.

No futher comment

WAFA

marshbags

[Jingthing]

GWB escaped by going to the national guard where he was more absent than present, there where even took disciplinary action against him. This I call dodging.

YOU can call it whatever you want. What he did was legal and did not even guarantee that he would not end up in Vietnam. GWB did not go to war, but he did do his duty.

Please, can we STOP talking about that scumbag, blood on his hands, liar any more? Its time to move on. Remove the rot.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Jingthing

[Plus]

It's not that simple, Meerkat.

Take TRT case - everyone knew what was going on, every single member and exectutive knew, for over a year while the case was drugged throught the media and the courts. Not a single one of them came forward and condemened the practice. Back in April-May they all were biting their nails hoping that the fraud goes through and they secure the elections. The win of the whole party and each MP in particular depended on the successful outcome of their electoral crime.

No one was innocent, and no one admitted any guilt, even those who were in charge of the party and were responsible for cleaning up its own act.

Chaturon sealed their fate when he testified to the court that they were aware of the case but didn't take any rectifying steps.

The PPP case is based on essentially the same law, except this time the screws are tightened and there's not much leeway for legal interpretaition.

The basic premise is that exectutive members, as party leaders, represent the party, both legally and ethically and they carry responsiblity for the part and they are obliged to set good standards for MPs to follow.

Due to their positions any fraud they commit would benefit the whole party, not just themselves. In Youngyuth's case he bribed influential local leaders from a wide area where perhaps a hundred of PPP candidates were running. He was undeniably acting for the party, not himself and he was rerpesenting the party in all aspects, including legal.

Realistically, it's impossible to ascertain which party member or exucutive was aware of the fraud, and it's impractical to take all party members through the legal process individually. This is not a criminal law, no one is going to jail, there aren't even fines to pay.

The intention of the law is clear - to prevent parties from commiting electoral fraud, singling out only perpetrators will not serve this goal at all. It would be like charging only hitmen but not those who order the killings. In criminal law masterminds are subject to equal or even heavier penalties than those who simply pull the trigger. Current electoral law applies the same principle.

In PAD's view the law isn't strict or swift enough - it took more than a year to reach the verdict. Interestinly, those who oppose PAD for taking law in their own hands want to stengthten checks and balance system instead, yet argue for giving moreleeway to politicians to escape punishment for fraud.

[baht&sold]

<snip>

Anyone supporting a 'democratic' Govt who's top priority is to REMOVE vote-fraud rules needs to get their head out of the Economist (the printed version of FOX/Faux news)

This keeps on getting repeated and should be clarified.

The amendment in question would mean that an entire party is not dissolved and its executive banned for five years, for the crime of only one executive member. Any member caught and found guilty of vote fraud however would still be punished. As it stands, the law metes out collective punishment and guilt by association. Even the judges last week alluded to this when they said that as the law stands they had to ban members even though there was no evidence they had any knowledge of the crime in question. It is bad law, plain and simple.

There are other constitutional amendments that are more questionable and rightly should be challenged. This however is not one of them.

Moot point - This is unfortunately the ONLY way to attempt to prevent mass vote-fraud in a Thailand 'democracy', leave it in. In Mr Yongyuth's case, it didn't help he was caught on video handing over a bag of cash to a village head-man in Chiang Rai to 'get out the vote' (truly an open and shut case). Footnote: the head-man in question has since been sacked for too many days away (after daily death threats) and the police posted to guard him were suddenly transferred to the deep south, followed by several attempts to intimidate him and his family at his home. Just another 'small' insignificant sub-note in all this to some.. yet indicative of the type of 'democracy' some covet.

PM Chalerm (or another of Thaksin's proxy-ilk) await and despite the fact both the Thai & Foreign Chambers of Commerce DON'T want them back, looks a good bet they will... (and then here we go again, and again and again)... THIS is what Thaksin-loyalists covet apparently... All for the sake of ONE man's insatiable greed and ego... I say ENOUGH already (but for Thaksin and his proxy-cronies, it NEVER, EVER will truly be ENOUGH).

[Meerkat]

No, people have been punished without being proven guilty, thus it is bad law (in a society that claims that one is innocent until proven otherwise). Personally (and I've stated this many times), I'm in favour of vote fraud being punishable by a lengthier ban - perhaps for life - as well as jail, so please don't try and twist my argument to say that I'm arguing for politicians to escape fraud. You simply shouldn't be punished because, "it's impossible to ascertain which party member or exucutive was aware of the fraud" or, "it's impractical". Critics of the PPP should focus on some of the amendments that would have weakened some of the other checks and balances, not imply that they were trying to legalise fraud.

Actually it might be interesting to see how an equivalent crime is dealt with in other countries, not something I've looked at.

[brahmburgers]

Perhaps 'guilty by association' is the most effective way to discipline groups of men who act like naughty children.

.....the types who sneak around - and keep doing naughty things as long as they can get away with it. If caught, they immediately have excuses, and/or blame others, or say "so 'n so does it, so why can't I do it?!"

If there was a bit of maturity going around with those posers, it would be enough to just discipline the ones who got caught - backed by sufficient evidence.

One rule in the Thai Constitution that I particularly don't like is the one that mandates; anyone running for political office must have a University degree. To prove how ridiculous that rule is: you could take 50 random people and do a double blind test to gauge which ones are honest, which ones have leadership qualities, and which ones are wise, and which lack moral turpitude - and the results would prove: the fact that someone sits in a wooden seat for 200 hours facing the front of a classroom - is no guarantee of higher personal qualities or skills.

To assume that only those with university degrees have the qualities needed to be leaders is ridiculous. As a footnote; if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs (founder of Apple) were Thai, they wouldn't be allowed to run for political office. Neither has a university degree.

Edited December 8, 2008 by brahmburgers

[Meerkat]

The uni degree clause for MPs was taken out of this constitution (and I agree it was a good thing that it went). It doesn't go far enough though as it remains a requirement for cabinet members. Not everything the military did was wrong IMO...

[baht&sold]

Chalerm's contempt and rumblings from PAD

Dec 8, 4.30 pm: Chalerm has finally come out and quickly made up for his unusual silence over the past few days. "He who laughs last laughs the loudest," he said.

According to him, the Democrats must be quaking in their boots now after several members of the Newin faction have refused to jump on the Abhisit bandwagon. In my humble opinion, whether the Newin faction speculation is true or false, Chalerm will do the Pheu Thai Party a whole world of good if he keeps his mouth shut. I mean, what's the use of reminding anyone that he's a challenger for the PM post on the Pheu Thai side?

To add to the Democrats' anxiety, rumours have it that the PAD may not be totally happy with what's going on, or with being practically left out to be precise. Some pro-PAD and anti-Democrat articles have emerged. And a very weird conspiracy theory has been leaked from the PAD alleging there's a possibility of a Thaksin-Demcorat secret handshake. The Manager website is at the moment highlighting calls for both camps to "stall" efforts to form a new government until all legal questions related to the three parties' dissolution are cleared.

Dec 8, 6 pm: We have just had our last news meeting of the day and the Abhisit-is-sure-bet sentiment has become anything but. Although he and Suthep gave lovely flowers to Banharn, the latter didn't return the favour by pledging his full support for a Democrat government. Or maybe Banharn has simply lost control of the MPs leaving his dissolved party in all directions.

The mind game is continuing, with the Pheu Thai camp being the one making louder noises. To compound the Democrats' worries, questions have resurfaced regarding the party list MPs' status, causing doubts about whether a House forum with them participating will be legitimate. And worse, House speaker Chai is one of the party list MP.

If we have to wait for the Constitution Court to rule on the party list issue before the House can elect the new PM, the alleged on-going bidding war may reach insane proportions. X'mas must have come early for many of our MPs.

The Nation / Tulsathit Taptim

[termsak]

PM Chalerm (or another of Thaksin's proxy-ilk) await and despite the fact both the Thai & Foreign Chambers of Commerce DON'T want them back, looks a good bet they will... (and then here we go again, and again and again)... THIS is what Thaksin-loyalists covet apparently... All for the sake of ONE man's insatiable greed and ego... I say ENOUGH already (but for Thaksin and his proxy-cronies, it NEVER, EVER will truly be ENOUGH).

Music to my ears...could not agree more. Why people still believes and support this person, beats me. Even more incredible, we have a couple of Farang in here that support this criminal and his puppets. Even believing that he is innocent and the victim of all this...one can only start wondering what kind of person this is and what he use to think with.

[Ricardo]

The corrupt Thai courts are demanding assurances from the militant, armed Paramilitary, terrorist ,fascist PAD ; and their Democrat Party instrument, that the reported 40m baht per head for the MP's to switch, will not be sourced from the their slush fund.

And again, do you have any evidence for your repeated claim, on this and other threads, that the PAD are the militant arm of the Democrats, or that the Democratic Party is an instrument of the PAD, as above. I think not ... or you would surely have posted it ? You damage the IMO-justifiable claim, that the two have some similar aims, and also your own credibility, by extending it further than justified by the facts available.

For years now the PAD faschists and their Democrat instrument have been saying the thai coiurts are corrupt.

What are the faschist PAD and their democrat instruments views on

Wiresok, you have plenty of time to keep repeating your allegation, but no time to produce any evidence ?

What's the weather like, under your bridge ? ? ?

[FatherF]

No, people have been punished without being proven guilty, thus it is bad law (in a society that claims that one is innocent until proven otherwise). Personally (and I've stated this many times), I'm in favour of vote fraud being punishable by a lengthier ban - perhaps for life - as well as jail, so please don't try and twist my argument to say that I'm arguing for politicians to escape fraud. You simply shouldn't be punished because, "it's impossible to ascertain which party member or exucutive was aware of the fraud" or, "it's impractical". Critics of the PPP should focus on some of the amendments that would have weakened some of the other checks and balances, not imply that they were trying to legalise fraud.

Actually it might be interesting to see how an equivalent crime is dealt with in other countries, not something I've looked at.

If the penalty for vote fraud were expulsion for the Whole party for, lets say 5 years, would that not make the parties themselves better structured? More careful who they had acting on their behalf? and, more importantly more accountable?

FF

[jdinasia]

LOL

Strangely the PAD and the Democrats have always respected the legal process here in Thailand. Even when the PAD leaders got in trouble they went to jail and then were released. When there was a court order they appealed. They in fact turned to the courts hoping that the courts would solve things legally on a suggestion

The Democrats are not allied with the PAD though they have had common cause in many instances when dealing with the TRT/PPP etc

I wonder which 'publicly elected judges' were replaced by the Junta? Can you name them?

Well Jdinasia

You're obviuolsy not into reading things are you?

Check out latest murmurings..Democrats to give PAD officialdom as Demonic crats need large majority to form a government, what better way than make PAD a political party, easily done ask one of the crooked judges to 'make it so'

You'll laugh from the other side of your face when your vote and rights are taken away from you AND YOU will know that you can only blame yourself for this and no one else because you brought into thailand a fascists police state, run by the army for the army...and your tea money wont be enough to buy you a job because you don't come from the right family...LOL yeah we'll see...as they say..he who laughs last laughs loudest...though I wont be laughing it'll be tears I'll be shedding due to your moronic myopic support of fascism

Nice flame job ... again.

Latest murmuring? You mean gossip without a shred of substantiating evidence?

But you really DO make me laugh.

How about a list of those 'publicly elected judges' that were replaced by the Junta?

[Ulysses G.]

termsak Posted Today, 2008-12-08 19:47:21

Even more incredible, we have a couple of Farang in here that support this criminal and his puppets. Even believing that he is innocent and the victim of all this...

I do not think that Thaksin is innocent. I think that he is pretty much the same as every other politician in Thailand when it comes to graft and corruption, but is being singled out because of his popularity with the poor.

He is not a good guy, but neither are the people who are out to ruin him. Fair is fair.

[jdinasia]

No, people have been punished without being proven guilty, thus it is bad law (in a society that claims that one is innocent until proven otherwise). Personally (and I've stated this many times), I'm in favour of vote fraud being punishable by a lengthier ban - perhaps for life - as well as jail, so please don't try and twist my argument to say that I'm arguing for politicians to escape fraud. You simply shouldn't be punished because, "it's impossible to ascertain which party member or exucutive was aware of the fraud" or, "it's impractical". Critics of the PPP should focus on some of the amendments that would have weakened some of the other checks and balances, not imply that they were trying to legalise fraud.

Actually it might be interesting to see how an equivalent crime is dealt with in other countries, not something I've looked at.

If the penalty for vote fraud were expulsion for the Whole party for, lets say 5 years, would that not make the parties themselves better structured? More careful who they had acting on their behalf? and, more importantly more accountable?

FF

Parties are only disbanded when an EXECUTIVE is caught. In this case the party is being treated as a Juristic person and the EXECS from that party are being held liable as a group. The minor MP's are not being held accountable (yet).

imho if a party is disbanded then the execs should be banned AND the mp's elected in that party should all be kicked and forced to run again in a new party.

This SHOULD prevent parties from doing this but the TRT/PPP/Thaksinista group appear to not be smart enough to learn from their own history.

[animatic]

Puea Thai Party branch leader says Democrat Party has no political propriety

Leader of the Bangkok branch of the Puea Thai Party (PTP) Wichan Meenchainant indicated that the Democrat Party has illustrated a lack of political propriety in its move to establish a new government, affirming that the Puea Thai Party also has enough members to secure an administration.

- ThaiNews / 2008-12-08

The irony in this statement is so grand it should have it's one state barge....

Since PTP didn't contest and win an election, ergo,

they lack propriety for attempting to form a government.

Their MP's did lead and election in ANOTHER party that now doesn't exist.

So how can the other party have a mandate? it only has some un-affiliated MPs.

But these guys have a history of saying what ever comes to mind

when press are around, just to get SOME press.

Yes the 'Party' IS a Juristic person

and it's board of directors is made to take responsability globally.

The other MP's are not removed from their MP status,

BUT their party home no longer exists, they are temporally 'stateless',

but have not lost voting rights in legislative session.

But being stateless that can not be considered to have a majority.

That are individuals UNLESS they join a party that

EXISTED and CONTESTED the last election.

If they had joined a older party they might have had coalition forming rights,

but the PTP transition was so transparent and so ill thought out, they are left

with a new party but no election mandate as a winning PARTY.

Now you can rail about the law, but IT IS REAL, and enfocable as we have seen.

They GOT CAUGHT and knew it's clauses in advance of the election,

but maybe disbelieved it would actually be enforced... Oops!

Edited December 8, 2008 by animatic

[baht&sold]

termsak Posted Today, 2008-12-08 19:47:21

Even more incredible, we have a couple of Farang in here that support this criminal and his puppets. Even believing that he is innocent and the victim of all this...

I do not think that Thaksin is innocent. I think that he is pretty much the same as every other politician in Thailand when it comes to graft and corruption, but is being singled out because of his popularity with the poor.

He is not a good guy, but neither are the people who are out to ruin him. Fair is fair.

He ruined himself (sadly) - he had all the potential to be the finest PM Thailand has ever had, but pure blind greed and EGO got in the way.

Now, he likens himself as THE 'victim' (even as a 'Mandella') yet holds an entire NATION victim to his never EVER ending blind greed and now combined with lust for revenge. Yet, some shamefully play the 'victim' card FOR him. Fair is fair? Stupid is as stupid does some would say. Shame, shame, shame.

[jasreeve17]

The anti-Thaksin ranting (and in many quarters it is just that; pure imbacilic ranting) is all well and good, if the other side weren't every bit as bad - as the Thai populous know, hence why they keep voting for him. Just saying they're stupid rural sorts is ignorant and naive.

I wanted Abhisit to win the last election, and MrT to be put in prison, where he belongs, but this PAD pressure and complete disregard for the law / democracy has shown the Dems up badly (they are just the same, whereas only a year ago they were the good guys in my eyes).

I don't know of a better Thai option than Abhisit, so I'd say 'let's give him a chance and see what he has got' - with the two most influential folk in Thai politics fading away (due to age, not lack of will) perhaps the cycle of the last thrity five years will be broken and democracy can come along.

The 'Thaksin very bad, Dems, army and PAD perfect' brigade (otherwise called rich Bangkokians and naive foreign aliens) are so far off the mark it's pathetic. None the less Abhisit is the only remotely decent option, in my opinion, so despite the awful and dispicable means (not to mention weak, on his part) of achieving power (maybe) I hope that he 'puts on the trousers' and drives the country forward into the twentyfirst century.

Of course, not having been clearly elected, and not having mass popular support could become a massive burden. Thais, generally, are a more apathetic bunch than us, so maybe the reds will quieten down a tad, and Abhisit can make a fist of it - that does seem the best option from where we stand at this moment in time.

[if the Dems do get in, watch out for all the massive favours being repaid. Tha PAD / army are licking their lips as I write this...]

[dave9988]

Democrats buy votes too they just have the right connections on the EC

[sriracha john]

Yongyuth Wichaidit, the newly-elected leader of the Puea Thai (For Thais) Party, under which members of the ruling People Power Party (PPP) have regrouped. Thailand's opposition party have called a special parliament session to prove it has the backing to form a government with its leader at the helm, but the former ruling party refused to back down.

AFP / 2008-12-08

[henryalleman]

I hope the one-eyed thai judiciary can realise the problems they are causing, hopefully before any more violence.

In the Uk the green party have hijacked stanstead airport with a sit in on the runway.

The police soon cleared them out, supportive of the democratically elected government.

The talksport radio presenter described them as terrorists,.

Lets now see if the english courts overthrow the democratically elected goverment.

There where in total 30 protesters in Standsted, and they protest against an extension of the airport. Those 30 protesters did not demonstrate against an corrupt government.

30 protesters not thousands, so its a peace of cake to pick them up.

you compare apples with egs

[jasreeve17]

I hope the one-eyed thai judiciary can realise the problems they are causing, hopefully before any more violence.

In the Uk the green party have hijacked stanstead airport with a sit in on the runway.

The police soon cleared them out, supportive of the democratically elected government.

The talksport radio presenter described them as terrorists,.

Lets now see if the english courts overthrow the democratically elected goverment.

There where in total 30 protesters in Standsted, and they protest against an extension of the airport. Those 30 protesters did not demonstrate against an corrupt government.

30 protesters not thousands, so its a peace of cake to pick them up.

you compare apples with egs

TiT - it's all apples & egs.

[sriracha john]

so maybe the reds will quieten down a tad

No chance of that with the Reds having a stadium rally this Saturday complete with another Thaksin call-in... perhaps from Togo this time.

Edited December 8, 2008 by sriracha john

[termsak]

termsak Posted Today, 2008-12-08 19:47:21

Even more incredible, we have a couple of Farang in here that support this criminal and his puppets. Even believing that he is innocent and the victim of all this...

I do not think that Thaksin is innocent. I think that he is pretty much the same as every other politician in Thailand when it comes to graft and corruption, but is being singled out because of his popularity with the poor.

He is not a good guy, but neither are the people who are out to ruin him. Fair is fair.

Since you put it this way, we seem to share the same view.

But he is not being singled out because of his popularity with the poor. He is being singled out because of his extraordinary greed and the thought of being above anything and anybody...I repeat, anybody. Power just made him change. I knew him and his family before he became PM, as did Chamlong and Sonthi. As another poster pointed out, he really had the opportunity to become one of the finest PM's ever. Even I voted for him! Look what happened? Never in Thai politics has one single person managed to split the country in two as he did. I am a patriot, and I cannot accept this. This is what makes him "special" and thus singled out. Taking him down is going to take a long time and a lot have to be sacrificed, but I believe it's worth it. Some of the stuff going on against him is not fair I agree, but I have to say that he brought it on himself. He has nobody else to blame.

Edited December 8, 2008 by termsak

[yumidesign]

Looks as if the demos may have enough votes to form the next Government

Young, British-born leader likely to be Thailand's next PM

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Thomas Bell in Bangkok

December 9, 2008

Abhisit Vejjajiva … good-looking and youthful.

Abhisit Vejjajiva … good-looking and youthful.

Photo: Reuters

Advertisement

IF THAILAND'S opposition Democrat Party is able to form a coalition government, as it claims it now has the numbers to do, the country's next prime minister will be the British-born, Eton and Oxford-educated Abhisit Vejjajiva.

It is a spectacular reversal of fortunes for the youthful and good looking 44-year-old Democrat leader, less than a year after voters handed his party a drubbing in Thailand's last general election.

Members of the ruling party are still trying to stitch together their own coalition but their chances appear slim. Their supporters allege the army put pressure on former coalition partners to change sides and condemned the development as a "coup in disguise".

There are 447 MPs in the lower house and - with a number of MPs defecting from the Government - the Democrats now appear to control more than 250, although they have only 165 MPs of their own. Parliament will meet to choose a new premier.

Thai politics is in a bitter struggle between allies of the exiled former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in the present government against an opposition movement that includes protesters who recently hijacked both of Bangkok's airports. The anti-Thaksin side has strong support from the powerful army, the royal palace and the courts.

The Democrats have links through several prominent members to the protesters and the party avoided denouncing the group's illegal tactics.

There are hopes that removing Thaksin's supporters from government will defuse the conflict that has severely damaged Thailand's economy and international standing.

Explaining his decision to change sides, Boonchong Wongtrairat, the representative of a group of defecting MPs, said: "The country and people can no longer be held hostage [by the conflict]. The country cannot waste time and watch its reputation plunge further in the eyes of the world."

Veera Musigapong, the leader of a pro-Thaksin popular movement said party leaders were called to meetings with an unnamed army general before the new coalition was announced.

Last week a court dissolved the ruling party and three of its coalition partners over election fraud but all three parties were immediately reborn under new names. The new version of the ruling party, now known as Puea Thai, still has 181 MPs, which means it is still the largest single party in Parliament.

It remains to be seen how supporters of Thaksin, who remains Thailand's most popular politician, will respond if they are forced into political opposition.

Telegraph, London

[yumidesign]

Democrats buy votes too they just have the right connections on the EC

in a recent poll 65% of Thais think its ok for pollies to be corrupt

[Plus]

No, people have been punished without being proven guilty

Only party executives are being punished, regular members don't even lose their MP status. The execs are supposed to know what other executives are doing for the party and they all hold collective responsibility, I don't see anything wrong with that. If they are out of the loop they shouldn't be called executives in the first place. Perhaps "executive" is not an appropriate borrowing from the corporate world, but in Thai political terms they are the bosses who are responsible.

The law still has a loophole for party list MPs - if they are engaged fraud, it's for the party list, their names aren't even on the ballots, yet when they get caught other members simply move up and fill their positions. The party itself, which is the beneficiary of the fraud, gets away scott free. The party can actually set up two-three guys to buy votes for them and take the fall in the end, there's absolutely nothing to lose here, they always have a few spare members on partly lists anyway.

[jasreeve17]

so maybe the reds will quieten down a tad

No chance of that with the Reds having a stadium rally this Saturday complete with another Thaksin call-in... perhaps from Togo this time.

Maybe not, and to be fair, you can understand their upset - the minority PAD looked to have overthrown their majority (after coup, law changes, election result dismissal, etc). [in their eyes, at least.]

But, if the politicians quieten down, then the Thais seem to be keen to go about their busines whoever is in power - they're tired of all the bickering (a bit like us...)

I know it's optimistic, but let's hope so. If the Dems do a bad job, then the PPPTRTPTZZZ will get voted back into power in a few years time, once they've re-grouped; then they could be an even stronger force than ever before.

(I don't think that Thaksin has lost any of his support, the masses are just tired of it all and want to get on with their lives. Apathy tends to rule here - it's hot.)

Edited December 8, 2008 by jasreeve17

[henryalleman]

One of the participants advised us to read an article in a British weekly. I did, and if this article is correct and if I understood this article correct, there is much bigger power struggle going on behind the scenes than we know and realise. But like the same member mentioned we can not discus it. And that's a shame.

So maybe we better inform ourself by the foreign press.

[BeauKarl]

One of the participants advised us to read an article in a British weekly. I did, and if this article is correct and if I understood this article correct, there is much bigger power struggle going on behind the scenes than we know and realise. But like the same member mentioned we can not discus it. And that's a shame.

My other half said the same, just like all her family and many in her region, ordinary working families, farmers, ... most of them think the same.

[termsak]

One of the participants advised us to read an article in a British weekly. I did, and if this article is correct and if I understood this article correct, there is much bigger power struggle going on behind the scenes than we know and realise. But like the same member mentioned we can not discus it. And that's a shame.

So maybe we better inform ourself by the foreign press.

I have not read the article, but I can only assume it's content reading your clues. And I have to tell you that you are quite spot on with your first point Sir!