Tv Members And Political Correctness

[Ulysses G.]

Joseph Stalin used to call people in other countries who embraced communism, "useful idiots". Nowadays he would call them PC.

[garro]

Could any of the anti-PC posters please provide at least one example of where anybody has been executed on the grounds of political correctness? Can the anti-PC posters provide any examples of where political correctness has led to mass exterminations? If not, can you please refrain from the childish use of the terms Nazi and Leninist to describe political correctness.

[GuestHouse]

I criticise the post and not the poster.

'GuestHouse' post='2432290' date='2008-12-27 16:12:13']

Now I would point out that me agreeing with Garro is a rare thing, oddly not so rare in this discussion since I also agree with another post of his in this thread.

The problem is that the anti-PC brigade miss 'the good old days' when you could openly call black people 'darkies' or 'coons' and call the disabled 'spastics'. They resent the fact that society wants to try and control the worst aspects of the darker side of their natures. They fondly remember the days when you could openly spit on your neighbor (or worse) because they looked or spoke different or because they went to a different church. They miss the days when being an ignorant bigot or racist wasn't frowned upon so much.

Is this "ignorant racist" remark not supposed to apply to anyone who is anti PC?

UG, can you please identify the 'ignorant racist remark' in the example you have chosen to pick out here?

[Here's a clue, you are going to have to demonstrate the remark is made against a particular race]

[Ulysses G.]

can you please refrain from the childish use of the terms Nazi and Leninist to describe political correctness.

Why? Actually, some people believe that political correctness was invented by the Communists.

Political Correctness: The Scourge of Our Times

Agustin Blazquez with the collaboration of Jaums Sutton

Monday, April 8, 2002

Does anyone know the origins of Political Correctness? Who originally developed it and what was its purpose?

I looked it up. It was developed at the Institute for Social Research in Frankfurt, Germany, which was founded in 1923 and came to be known as the "Frankfurt School." It was a group of thinkers who pulled together to find a solution to the biggest problem facing the implementers of communism in Russia.

The problem? Why wasn't communism spreading?

Their answer? Because Western Civilization was in its way.

What was the problem with Western Civilization? Its belief in the individual, that an individual could develop valid ideas. At the root of communism was the theory that all valid ideas come from the effect of the social group of the masses. The individual is nothing.

And they believed that the only way for communism to advance was to help (or force, if necessary) Western Civilization to destroy itself. How to do that? Undermine its foundations by chipping away at the rights of those annoying individuals.

One way to do that? Change their speech and thought patterns by spreading the idea that vocalizing your beliefs is disrespectful to others and must be avoided to make up for past inequities and injustices.

And call it something that sounds positive: "Political Correctness."

Inspired by the brand new communist technique, Mao, in the 1930s, wrote an article on the "correct" handling of contradictions among the people. "Sensitive training" – sound familiar? – and speech codes were born.

In 1935, after Hitler came to power, the Frankfurt School moved to New York City, where they continued their work by translating Marxism from economic to cultural terms using Sigmund Freud's psychological conditioning mechanisms to get Americans to buy into Political Correctness. In 1941, they moved to California to spread their wings.

But Political Correctness remains just what it was intended to be: a sophisticated and dangerous form of censorship and oppression, imposed upon the citizenry with the ultimate goal of manipulating, brainwashing and destroying our society.

Entire article: http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articl.../4/121115.shtml

Edited December 30, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

UG, can you please identify the 'ignorant racist remark' in the example you have chosen to pick out here?

"They miss the days when being an ignorant bigot or racist wasn't frowned upon so much".

Don't get too clever, or you will - justifiably - be accused of being a grammar-Nazi who ignores pestering posters that he agrees with.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[garro]

can you please refrain from the childish use of the terms Nazi and Leninist to describe political correctness.

Why? Actually, some people believe that political correctness was invented by the Communists.

Political Correctness: The Scourge of Our Times

Agustin Blazquez with the collaboration of Jaums Sutton

Monday, April 8, 2002

Does anyone know the origins of Political Correctness? Who originally developed it and what was its purpose?

I looked it up. It was developed at the Institute for Social Research in Frankfurt, Germany, which was founded in 1923 and came to be known as the "Frankfurt School." It was a group of thinkers who pulled together to find a solution to the biggest problem facing the implementers of communism in Russia.

The problem? Why wasn't communism spreading?

Their answer? Because Western Civilization was in its way.

What was the problem with Western Civilization? Its belief in the individual, that an individual could develop valid ideas. At the root of communism was the theory that all valid ideas come from the effect of the social group of the masses. The individual is nothing.

And they believed that the only way for communism to advance was to help (or force, if necessary) Western Civilization to destroy itself. How to do that? Undermine its foundations by chipping away at the rights of those annoying individuals.

One way to do that? Change their speech and thought patterns by spreading the idea that vocalizing your beliefs is disrespectful to others and must be avoided to make up for past inequities and injustices.

And call it something that sounds positive: "Political Correctness."

Inspired by the brand new communist technique, Mao, in the 1930s, wrote an article on the "correct" handling of contradictions among the people. "Sensitive training" – sound familiar? – and speech codes were born.

In 1935, after Hitler came to power, the Frankfurt School moved to New York City, where they continued their work by translating Marxism from economic to cultural terms using Sigmund Freud's psychological conditioning mechanisms to get Americans to buy into Political Correctness. In 1941, they moved to California to spread their wings.

But Political Correctness remains just what it was intended to be: a sophisticated and dangerous form of censorship and oppression, imposed upon the citizenry with the ultimate goal of manipulating, brainwashing and destroying our society.

Entire article: http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articl.../4/121115.shtml

Oh, an article from newsmax. There will be no bias there then. This organisation has been caught lying and producing false stories on too many occasions to be taken seriously.

[Ulysses G.]

As long as they got it right this time.

[GuestHouse]

UG, if someone expresses ignorant, bigoted ,racist views then they are an ignorant, bigoted racist, regardless of what their own race is.

Observing that someone is ignorant, bigoted, or racist is not in iteself a racist remark unless the basis of the observation is not the views they express but that they are of a particular race and hence because they are of that race they are ignorant, bigoted or racist.

I haven't spotted such a claim in this thread, have you?

[bonobo]

Could any of the anti-PC posters please provide at least one example of where anybody has been executed on the grounds of political correctness? Can the anti-PC posters provide any examples of where political correctness has led to mass exterminations? If not, can you please refrain from the childish use of the terms Nazi and Leninist to describe political correctness.

It is not a matter of going to the extremes as far as punishment in that the PC movement is being likened to the Nazis or the Stalinists but rather to the ideological "rightness" that some PC'ers exhibit.  The "we are right and all of you are wrong, and we are going to make you comply with what we know to be right" attitude. In this, the comparison is a valid comparison, whether that comparison stands up completely or not.

If someone were posting that the "PC Movement is as evil and has hurt as many people as the Nazis," well, than that would be out of line. But no one is saying that, to my knowledge. The term "nazi" has taken on a much broader meaning than that of the National Socialist German Workers' Party to incorporate people who try to thrust any ideology or to take dictatorial actions against others.  Hence, the rather un-PC term "feminazi" or New Yorks infamous "Soup Nazi."  No one is saying that devout femisists or some guy running a soup restuarant are really members of the Nazi Party, but rather that they are deemed, by some, to be extreme and unyielding in their actions.

[bonobo]

UG, if someone expresses ignorant, bigoted ,racist views then they are an ignorant, bigoted racist, regardless of what their own race is.

Observing that someone is ignorant, bigoted, or racist is not in iteself a racist remark unless the basis of the observation is not the views they express but that they are of a particular race and hence because they are of that race they are ignorant, bigoted or racist.

I haven't spotted such a claim in this thread, have you?

Am I somehow missing some great point here?  Because I am at a loss as to how you keep picking on things which I don't see existing.

Unless I am totally off base, I took Ulysses G.'s post not to mean that the post in question was ignorant or racist, or that he was accsuing someone of being ignorant or racist, but rather there was a remark which used the words " ignorant bigot or racist" and he questioned to whom that referred.

Some of your arguements really boggle my mind.  You obviously have one or two brain cells left as you can string together coherent English, and I am saying this without trying to flame or incite, but I go back to a previous musing of mine and wonder how much of this you actually earnestly believe and how much if this is you sitting back there in front of your computer chuckling at the reaction you are getting to your posts. I swear I am not trying to be funny or incite something here, but the more I read your posts, the more that this becomes the more logical reason to your body of posts here.

You did mention once something to the effect that you posted here to learn about others, and I really wonder if that is not your raison detre here.  That would sure explain quite a bit.

[GuestHouse]

I think the term 'Feminazi' is an excellent example of juxtapositioning 'Nazi' to something that someone disagrees with, not as an argument of intelect (ie this is what is wrong with Feminisn and here is my well argued case) but as one of casting Feminism into the bin with Nazism in order to negate the arguments of Feminism.

A rather trite act of dismisal.

The term Feminazi has appeared in this thread on the Anti PC side of the debate, and the term 'PC Nazi' is being used by those on the Anti PC side of the debate who are happy to trade insults - No surprises there then.

And before that sets of a rant, I have not stated that everyone on the Anti PC side of the debate is happy to trade personal insults, nor that all on the Pro PC side of the debate are blameless on the personal insults front.

[bonobo]

I think the term 'Feminazi' is an excellent example of juxtapositioning 'Nazi' to something that someone disagrees with, not as an argument of intelect (ie this is what is wrong with Feminisn and here is my well argued case) but as one of casting Feminism into the bin with Nazism in order to negate the arguments of Feminism.

A rather trite act of dismisal.

The term Feminazi has appeared in this thread on the Anti PC side of the debate, and the term 'PC Nazi' is being used by those on the Anti PC side of the debate who are happy to trade insults - No surprises there then.

And before that sets of a rant, I have not stated that everyone on the Anti PC side of the debate is happy to trade personal insults, nor that all on the Pro PC side of the debate are blameless on the personal insults front.

Oh, I agree with you 100% on the word "feminazi" and why it is used. I can't argue with that logic.

My point was that people are not really liking feminists to the actual party, but are rather using a negatively charged word to accuse some feminsits of being too strident. I don't personally agree with that, but I do stand by my assertion that they can't be using real logic to try and say that feminists and the Nazi Party are alike in every way. That is just too ludicrous for even the most ardent anti-feminists.

[GuestHouse]

Bonobo, don't go fretting about starting a Flame Fest, it aint going to happen. I find the attention you give my posts, even those with specific questions directed towards others 'interesting' and not at all annoying. Added to which I am somewhat gladdened by your allowing me a modicum of intelligence. That debate can take place without the discussion becoming personal and condesending is something of an encouragement to me. I can only thank you for your contribution and insights.

[GuestHouse]

My argument against the use of the term 'PC Nazi' is not simply that it is 'ludicrous' in the full sense of the word, rather that attaching the label 'Nazi' is an act of trite dismissal - At best Intellectualy lazy at worst simply an admition of not having an intellectual argument.

[bonobo]

Bonobo, don't go fretting about starting a Flame Fest, it aint going to happen. I find the attention you give my posts, even those with specific questions directed towards others 'interesting' and not at all annoying. Added to which I am somewhat gladdened by your allowing me a modicum of intelligence. That debate can take place without the discussion becoming personal and condesending is something of an encouragement to me. I can only thank you for your contribution and insights.

Glad we can keep it civil.

It seems most of my posts in response to a specific post are in response to you, Garro, or Huey, which is somewhat ironic as I am not what I would consider to be "anti-PC," and I belieive more in common with those who would think of themselves as PC than the card-carrying anti-PC'ers. But I have only posted in opposition a few times to those professing anti-PC leanings. I thought aobut this while driving home today, I think it is because you and Garro, in particular, tend to write longer and more thought-out posts, while some of the more strident anti-PC posts are merely short, extreme views which may make me roll my eyes, but don't seem to warrant a reply. Or maybe it is because that while I try to act in ways that most people would call PC (I still want to say I am acting what I consider to be "correct," not "poltically correct") I do think PC can go too far, and I want others with more similar views to mine to understand that and be aware of the consequences of extremism of any ilk. Whereas if someone is a real racist, for example, I don't have much in common with him or her and do not hope to change his or her opinion on a simple internet forum.

[bonobo]

My argument against the use of the term 'PC Nazi' is not simply that it is 'ludicrous' in the full sense of the word, rather that attaching the label 'Nazi' is an act of trite dismissal - At best Intellectualy lazy at worst simply an admition of not having an intellectual argument.

A simple "PC Nazi" may be an intellectually lazy way to make a point, but explaining why Political Correctness can be compared to techniques used by the Nazis is not, whether you agree with the comparison or not.

On the other hand, I sort of laughed at the "uberPC" term used.  To me, when I read it, it was sort of a light-hearted way to say something other than the "adament PC supporters."

[Super Hans]

My argument against the use of the term 'PC Nazi' is not simply that it is 'ludicrous' in the full sense of the word, rather that attaching the label 'Nazi' is an act of trite dismissal - At best Intellectualy lazy at worst simply an admition of not having an intellectual argument.

A simple "PC Nazi" may be an intellectually lazy way to make a point, but explaining why Political Correctness can be compared to techniques used by the Nazis is not, whether you agree with the comparison or not.

On the other hand, I sort of laughed at the "uberPC" term used.  To me, when I read it, it was sort of a light-hearted way to say something other than the "adament PC supporters."

I haven't seen anyone who could actually be described as anti-PC here on this thread. I have, however, seen several very dangerous zealots. The point made about separating the P from the C is a good one - frankly, the Ubers are worryingly naive when it comes to the political. Let them sit theorising in their comfortable offices and ivories towers. Let the rest of us rub along as stressfree as we can.

[Super Hans]

But you're not an ex-serviceman and have plumbed new depths in even trying to elevate your opinions alongside those who did sacrifice their lives, or the best parts of their lives, in the defence of freedom. Who the hel_l appointed you, an anonymous internet ketboard warrior, as spokesman for those men and women of many nationalities and faiths who made the ultimate sacrifice? Or is only the select few you speak for?

1. how do you know?

2. what are you talking about?

Edited December 30, 2008 by Super Hans

[Ulysses G.]

UG, if someone expresses ignorant, bigoted ,racist views then they are an ignorant, bigoted racist, regardless of what their own race is.

Observing that someone is ignorant, bigoted, or racist is not in iteself a racist remark unless the basis of the observation is not the views they express but that they are of a particular race and hence because they are of that race they are ignorant, bigoted or racist.

I haven't spotted such a claim in this thread, have you?

Am I somehow missing some great point here?  Because I am at a loss as to how you keep picking on things which I don't see existing.

Unless I am totally off base, I took Ulysses G.'s post not to mean that the post in question was ignorant or racist, or that he was accsuing someone of being ignorant or racist, but rather there was a remark which used the words " ignorant bigot or racist" and he questioned to whom that referred.

Some of your arguements really boggle my mind. You obviously have one or two brain cells left as you can string together coherent English, and I am saying this without trying to flame or incite, but I go back to a previous musing of mine and wonder how much of this you actually earnestly believe and how much if this is you sitting back there in front of your computer chuckling at the reaction you are getting to your posts.

Exactly, and most people with "two brains cells" would have been able to figure all this out themselves.

[Super Hans]

Could any of the anti-PC posters please provide at least one example of where anybody has been executed on the grounds of political correctness? Can the anti-PC posters provide any examples of where political correctness has led to mass exterminations? If not, can you please refrain from the childish use of the terms Nazi and Leninist to describe political correctness.

It is not a matter of going to the extremes as far as punishment in that the PC movement is being likened to the Nazis or the Stalinists but rather to the ideological "rightness" that some PC'ers exhibit.  The "we are right and all of you are wrong, and we are going to make you comply with what we know to be right" attitude. In this, the comparison is a valid comparison, whether that comparison stands up completely or not.

If someone were posting that the "PC Movement is as evil and has hurt as many people as the Nazis," well, than that would be out of line. But no one is saying that, to my knowledge. The term "nazi" has taken on a much broader meaning than that of the National Socialist German Workers' Party to incorporate people who try to thrust any ideology or to take dictatorial actions against others.  Hence, the rather un-PC term "feminazi" or New Yorks infamous "Soup Nazi."  No one is saying that devout femisists or some guy running a soup restuarant are really members of the Nazi Party, but rather that they are deemed, by some, to be extreme and unyielding in their actions.

I'm surprised nobody's invoked the Godwin's Law defence. Real schoolboy stuff from the ubers.

[Ulysses G.]

Could any of the anti-PC posters please provide at least one example of where anybody has been executed on the grounds of political correctness? Can the anti-PC posters provide any examples of where political correctness has led to mass exterminations? If not, can you please refrain from the childish use of the terms Nazi and Leninist to describe political correctness.

It is not a matter of going to the extremes as far as punishment in that the PC movement is being likened to the Nazis or the Stalinists but rather to the ideological "rightness" that some PC'ers exhibit.  The "we are right and all of you are wrong, and we are going to make you comply with what we know to be right" attitude. In this, the comparison is a valid comparison, whether that comparison stands up completely or not.

If someone were posting that the "PC Movement is as evil and has hurt as many people as the Nazis," well, than that would be out of line. But no one is saying that, to my knowledge. The term "nazi" has taken on a much broader meaning than that of the National Socialist German Workers' Party to incorporate people who try to thrust any ideology or to take dictatorial actions against others.  Hence, the rather un-PC term "feminazi" or New Yorks infamous "Soup Nazi."  No one is saying that devout femisists or some guy running a soup restuarant are really members of the Nazi Party, but rather that they are deemed, by some, to be extreme and unyielding in their actions.

Another great post that is pure common sense. Only a mind with severe PC rot could not see what bonobo is saying.

[Boo]

Who's ivory towers & comfortable offices? Presuming again?

[Super Hans]

As for the marginalised people in society there are still many struggling to be heard. Those with intellectual and physical disabilty, those suffering from the stigma of mental illness, those who choose to live a life different from the mainstream, and so on -many people.

Certainly there are still groups who have not made the leap forward vis-a-vis civil rights as other groups, and certainly being PC-like has helped foster a better environment to address issues of concern for them. Your example of those suffering from mental illness is probably right on.

But other than setting the stage for help such as by convincing people to use more humanizing terms for people suffering so, and I admit this is important, how can being Politically Correct alone help these people have a better medical care or a better life in general?

Especially in my home country (the USA) where medical care is excellent for the financially well-off, we need a drastic change on the medical care system to be able to reach those less financially well-off. This is a matter of public and governmental discourse and concrete action, not merely a matter of being PC.

Well bonobo, when you see the histories of people with mental health problems you often see that these people waited until they reached some crisis point before seeking help. The reason cited for this is quite often fear of being stigmatised as mentally ill. There is a lot of name calling in regards to mental illness and this has directly caused harm.

For example; you might get a woman suffering from post-natal depression who puts off seeking help because of fear of people calling her 'a nutcase'. This avoidance in seeking help might lead to an eventual breakdown or even suicide just because she was afraid of what people might say about her. When a society stops name-calling those with mental illness then I feel sure that people will be far quicker in seeking help. This is an area where PC needs to apply more effort.

Brilliant. That's just what society needs. Let's have a totally anodyne, sterile, functional world, where armies of clipboarded Bottom Inspectors intrude into our everyday lives. That'll cheer up the depressed.

When society stops name-calling...when society stops name-calling...It really does beggar belief that people actually want this. Fitter Happier. Fitter Happier. Have you ever told a joke, Garro? Have you ever had a laugh at someone else's expense? Have you ever exchanged banter with a carrot top, a speccy four-eyes or a shortarse? Have you ever laughed, Garro?

We - and I speak for the overwhelming majority here - are sick to death of PC. There are no areas "where PC needs to apply more effort", other than to disappear back up its own backside.

[Super Hans]

Who's ivory towers & comfortable offices? Presuming again?

Just speaking 'anecdotally'.

Besides, what's wrong with presumption? Do you not believe in the presumption of innocence until proven guilty?

[Ulysses G.]

We - and I speak for the overwhelming majority here - are sick to death of PC. There are no areas "where PC needs to apply more effort", other than to disappear back up its own backside.

That really says it all. How about stopping the thread here?

[Super Hans]

Another great post that is pure common sense. Only a mind with severe PC rot could not see what bonobo is saying.

Common sense? Common sense?? The ubers drove that away years ago. Common sense is the last bastion of human decency.

[Boo]

Is it only the wealthy or well to do who beleive in political correctness.

[sbk]

No, I see SuperHans speaking for himself. I seriously doubt he speaks for the majority since I seriously doubt the majority even reads this thread anymore.

Given that, and given that it still seems to end up with aggressive and personal posts,

///CLOSED///

[Boo]

Besides, what's wrong with presumption

Everythign when applied to a whole group based on your own small minded preconceptions. Not very PC is it

You do seem to have a bit of an obsession about pro-pc people being well off (in your mind) bit of the green eyed monster is it?

[sbk]

Looks like Boo got a post in before it closed.

But, still closed. I find the aggressive tone of many posts to be in violation of forum rules.