400,000 Thais Have Hiv But Don't Know It

[Felt 35]

so it is easy for them to access the treatment and prevention.

Hmm…

I used to take a annual HIV test to be sure that everything is okay at Bangkok Phuket Hospital. It was convenient and reasonable to drop by their laboratory, a pinch and a tab, pay and then wait an hour or pick up the results later on.

That was until this year.

They have now a new policy saying you have to talk with the doctor before the test. I confronted the International department at the hospital about this policy but was unable to get a explanation, only that “its our policy”

If they had have a “policy” saying you have to talk with the doctor after the test if you results show that you are positive, well then that’s been very understandable and necessary for further treatment.

My point is if they make it standard on most hospitals in Thailand that you have to fold out your sexual life and list your relationship and family members even before you have taken the test its easy to understand why many shy Thais goes around with HIV without knowing it.

[Ga-gai]

It's really scaring how little the rural ppopulation really know about HIV, AIDS and other veneral deceases. I've been living here for ten years now, far away from any tourist area. Maybe I see a foreigner 1-2 times a month. And all this traditional mea-noi thing only makes things worse, since usually none of them are monogamous. Nor do they use any protection like condoms.

Anyway...

My wife had a friend that recently died from AIDS. The woman didn't know she had HIV until she got AIDS. She was a mea-noi to a guy working in the office at a local Hitachi factory plant (thai male). One day he made a visit to the woman (his mea-noi) and just told her that he have to move away and not to come back again. She didn't know what he meant. Six months later she felt ill and went to the local hospital. The doctor made some tests and she was later informed that she had AIDS. Towards the she felt so ill that she needed hospital care. She stayed at the hospital for one week, only to get some painkillers and other shots. The doctor then told her that there is nothing more to do. It would be better that she moved back home and stayed with her family for the rest of the time there's left. Me and my made several visits to her. It really was hurting to see her getting thinner and thinner, since she used to be a very good looking pretty girl full of life. Then she passed away. We also attended to her cremation at the local temple. A really sad story indeed.

But as long as this society and culture doesn't deal with proper sex education for the young students, the problem will get worse. The combination of the mea-noi culture, easy prostitutes and no protection, this problem will get to a point where it will get out of control for sure.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Ga-gai

[Ijustwannateach]

I don't find this report lacking at all in credibility. Presumably they are doing some sort of statistical analysis which compares their client base with the general population, reduces the incidence based on 'self-reporting' factors at work on their client population, and then extrapolating the same percentage of those who test and aren't aware of their positive status to the general population, and taking the difference between the official figure and their number. 400,000 doesn't sound particularly high.

The Red Cross in Bangkok offers 1 free test per 6 months- anonymously- for anyone (based on a card UPC code and the honour system).

I recommend that all persons in Thailand and anywhere else in the world assume that all their partners are positive and learn to behave in an accordingly safe manner with them.

"S"

[sultan]

QUESTION:

Can anyone give an explanation of how any organisation can quote a number of infected people 'who dont know it?'

I am a qualified pharmacologist and am frankly at a loss as to how anyone can arrive at a number of unknown infections - i.e. how do they know?

The risk is real but massively overblown - condoms and the lubricants etc is a billion dollar industry. The red cross, UN etc are funded by somebody.

SEE PAST THE SPIN

For the record - the micropores in latex are actually larger than the HIV retrovirus particles - bet you don't hear that kind of information too often.

Furthermore - google recent reports re the UN being slammed for their massively manipulated stats on % infections per country.

Dont be negligent, but dont be fooled....

[eddiemonster]

QUESTION:

For the record - the micropores in latex are actually larger than the HIV retrovirus particles - bet you don't hear that kind of information too often.

Actually, if you google it you will find a lot of reports about it. Mainly spread by members/supporters of the catholic church who have their own agenda.

[Ijustwannateach]

People can have an organism incubating in them without their knowledge- quite common, for instance, in TB. As I mentioned, I believe they have an entry-level questionnaire for those who are tested- post test, they see who suspected they had been exposed or who had symptoms. They lower this percentage statistically somehow (because the client population is self-reporting) and extrapolate a percentage of the general population.

Btw, the micropore information is 'true' in the sense that many of the latex micropores *are* larger- but that doesn't prevent the overall network from being secure. After all, gaseous atoms are much smaller than virus particles, yet you can make a pretty secure balloon out of a condom.

[tijnebijn]

People in high risk groups for HIV infection should not donate blood. There is a window of time between infection and testing positive and this could contaminate the blood supply.

I see no reason to not believe the stats. There are a lot of people not taking precautions here and a lot of people with multiple partners. In the past two months, I have had two close friends confide they have just tested positive. Both practiced safe sex--most of the time--and if they managed to contract the disease, it's likely to be fairly widespread as neither of them screws around a lot. Sadly one of them now faces the onerous task of explaining this to his newly pregnant wife. She had a terribly hard time getting pregnant and was so very, very happy. What should have been a joyous time for both of them will now be filled with anxiety and uncertainty. He is farang and she is Thai--and she wasn't positive when she started trying to get pregnant a year ago as she was tested at the time.

The other friend who tested positive; well, he wasn't too surprised. Statitistically, he saw this one coming.

Nice responsible friends you got there , feel sorry for their wifes to fall for such loosers .

I'm sorry but it really is sad indeed .

[tijnebijn]

It's really scaring how little the rural ppopulation really know about HIV, AIDS and other veneral deceases. I've been living here for ten years now, far away from any tourist area. Maybe I see a foreigner 1-2 times a month. And all this traditional mea-noi thing only makes things worse, since usually none of them are monogamous. Nor do they use any protection like condoms.

Anyway...

My wife had a friend that recently died from AIDS. The woman didn't know she had HIV until she got AIDS. She was a mea-noi to a guy working in the office at a local Hitachi factory plant (thai male). One day he made a visit to the woman (his mea-noi) and just told her that he have to move away and not to come back again. She didn't know what he meant. Six months later she felt ill and went to the local hospital. The doctor made some tests and she was later informed that she had AIDS. Towards the she felt so ill that she needed hospital care. She stayed at the hospital for one week, only to get some painkillers and other shots. The doctor then told her that there is nothing more to do. It would be better that she moved back home and stayed with her family for the rest of the time there's left. Me and my made several visits to her. It really was hurting to see her getting thinner and thinner, since she used to be a very good looking pretty girl full of life. Then she passed away. We also attended to her cremation at the local temple. A really sad story indeed.

But as long as this society and culture doesn't deal with proper sex education for the young students, the problem will get worse. The combination of the mea-noi culture, easy prostitutes and no protection, this problem will get to a point where it will get out of control for sure.

Great post , and its the hidden truth !

[geriatrickid]

One of the weaknesses of an open forum is that some people will claim to be experts in a particular field of science. As membership in TV does not require one to prove his or her's academic credentials, such claims must be taken with that in mind. There are times when claims by "experts" are just so at odds with published studies and accepted protocol, that it necessitates pointing out the unsubstantiated claim to prevent trusting readers from accepting inaccuracies and references taken out of context.

QUESTION:

Can anyone give an explanation of how any organisation can quote a number of infected people 'who dont know it?'

I am a qualified pharmacologist and am frankly at a loss as to how anyone can arrive at a number of unknown infections - i.e. how do they know?

Gee. You tell me since you are the self described pharmacologist. The math and conclusion criteria are the same as that used for other illnesses. Most people are not tested for cholesterol, triglycerides and blood pressure and yet we predict the likelihood of disease in the same manner as that done for HIV. Most people are not screened for colon cancer, and yet we predict the proportion of the population that has cancer.

QUESTION:

The risk is real but massively overblown - condoms and the lubricants etc is a billion dollar industry. The red cross, UN etc are funded by somebody.

Yes it is a large industry, but so is toilet paper and kleenex. I suppose you don't need to wipe your ass either. Lubricants have nothing to do with this subject. Condoms are used not just for HIV prevention but to prevent unwanted pregnancies and transmission of bacteria, fungi, parasites and viruses. Any funding put into condoms usually pays off by reducing the costs of treatment for those that would otherwise become ill from the non use of a condom. As a pharmacologist, you will probably have come across the cost benefit models in one of your first year courses at the MSc. level, assuming you even completed a masters or a doctorate.

For the record - the micropores in latex are actually larger than the HIV retrovirus particles - bet you don't hear that kind of information too often.

Furthermore - google recent reports re the UN being slammed for their massively manipulated stats on % infections per country.

Dont be negligent, but dont be fooled....

The reference to the micropores is your undoing. The Carey et al study from 1994 that looked at leakage from condoms was run again under more rigorous methods by Voeller et al in 1994 and did not share the same conclusions. More importantly, I suggest you go to your Cochrane reports (you are a pharmacologist so you should have access to the database) and read the Weller & Davis literature review from 2004. All of the studies point to the same conclusion that features prominently in US CDC and WHO positions;

Reference: Weller SC, Davis-Beaty K. Condom effectiveness in reducing heterosexual HIV transmission.

Authors Conclusions: This review indicates that consistent use of condoms results in 80% reduction in HIV incidence. Consistent use is defined as using a condom for all acts of penetrative vaginal intercourse. Because the studies used in this review did not report on the "correctness" of use, namely whether condoms were used correctly and perfectly for each and every act of intercourse, effectiveness and not efficacy is estimated.

No one has ever claimed that condoms were 100% effective, but all studies to date show that access to testing, education and condom use reduce HIV transmission. That was demonstrated over a decade ago in Thailand.

As for the issue of micropores, well yes, there is a chance a condom can be defective. While there may be micropores that allow leakage, the HIV can't make it through as those micropores are smaller than HIV. There is always a chance it can happen. However, for those of us not into playing the odds with our lives, we'll go the condom route.

[henryalleman]

HIV is transmitted through direct contact between blood and a body fluid containing HIV, such as blood, semen, vaginal fluid, pre-seminal fluid or breast milk. Transmission could involve anal, vaginal or oral sex, a blood transfusion, contaminated hypodermic needles, an exchange between mother and baby during pregnancy, childbirth, or breastfeeding, or other exposure to one of the above body fluids.

What's the deal with oral sex? Always thought it was one of the safest ways to cum but apparently not

Oral sex is statistically much, much safer than vaginal or anal sex. However, "much safer" does not mean 100 % safe.

Oral sex is not safer only a little bit less dangerous. And this is not a joke or sarcasm

[henryalleman]

It's really scaring how little the rural ppopulation really know about HIV, AIDS and other veneral deceases. I've been living here for ten years now, far away from any tourist area. Maybe I see a foreigner 1-2 times a month. And all this traditional mea-noi thing only makes things worse, since usually none of them are monogamous. Nor do they use any protection like condoms.

Anyway...

My wife had a friend that recently died from AIDS. The woman didn't know she had HIV until she got AIDS. She was a mea-noi to a guy working in the office at a local Hitachi factory plant (thai male). One day he made a visit to the woman (his mea-noi) and just told her that he have to move away and not to come back again. She didn't know what he meant. Six months later she felt ill and went to the local hospital. The doctor made some tests and she was later informed that she had AIDS. Towards the she felt so ill that she needed hospital care. She stayed at the hospital for one week, only to get some painkillers and other shots. The doctor then told her that there is nothing more to do. It would be better that she moved back home and stayed with her family for the rest of the time there's left. Me and my made several visits to her. It really was hurting to see her getting thinner and thinner, since she used to be a very good looking pretty girl full of life. Then she passed away. We also attended to her cremation at the local temple. A really sad story indeed.

But as long as this society and culture doesn't deal with proper sex education for the young students, the problem will get worse. The combination of the mea-noi culture, easy prostitutes and no protection, this problem will get to a point where it will get out of control for sure.

This story shocked me. because this day's nobody have to die because of AIDS, it can be controlled perfectly by proper medication. people who have AIDS even can have a normal productive life .

Your example only shows that the Thai health care system sucks.

[henryalleman]

To the people who have doubts about the report i can only say

denial, denial, denial. ignorance, ignorance,ignorance

[Crushdepth]

400,000 people,sounds too much.

actual figure must be much less.

Probably an underestimate. I met a Thai HIV researcher a couple of years ago, she said the infection rate in Thailand was slightly under 2% (I think she said 1.9%, so say around 1.2 million people infected).

You cannot use the total population of thailand as a base for statistics in this area.

It was said before that the main area of concern was in the age group 18 - 24, dont know how many thais fall into this group but it seems to me that the stats look dodgy anyway. However I dont think that it is bad to highlight these problems, just use good stats.

Yes I can - I offered this stat as a flat average of the Thai population. That's what it is.

[single53parent]

Maybe me too!!!

I have to give also blood in the "redcrosscar" in Khon Kaen, but I check my body (complete) every year in the Rachapreuk-hospital and also my blood.,and the last 10-years I was clean from everything...also my blood. But last May I have married a Thai woman, and we have living only three weeks and five weekendde together as a married couple.

On the end of the month of May,up to now we have living separate in our own home. Three months ago I have to give my blood in a red-cross-mobile near Sentosa in Khon Kaen town. So I think that I have to check my blood again soon,and can see or Im also one of this 400.000 people who have record with this HIV virus.,maybe that the redcross show this 400.000 people by name on her website!

[Ga-gai]

It's really scaring how little the rural ppopulation really know about HIV, AIDS and other veneral deceases. I've been living here for ten years now, far away from any tourist area. Maybe I see a foreigner 1-2 times a month. And all this traditional mea-noi thing only makes things worse, since usually none of them are monogamous. Nor do they use any protection like condoms.

Anyway...

My wife had a friend that recently died from AIDS. The woman didn't know she had HIV until she got AIDS. She was a mea-noi to a guy working in the office at a local Hitachi factory plant (thai male). One day he made a visit to the woman (his mea-noi) and just told her that he have to move away and not to come back again. She didn't know what he meant. Six months later she felt ill and went to the local hospital. The doctor made some tests and she was later informed that she had AIDS. Towards the she felt so ill that she needed hospital care. She stayed at the hospital for one week, only to get some painkillers and other shots. The doctor then told her that there is nothing more to do. It would be better that she moved back home and stayed with her family for the rest of the time there's left. Me and my made several visits to her. It really was hurting to see her getting thinner and thinner, since she used to be a very good looking pretty girl full of life. Then she passed away. We also attended to her cremation at the local temple. A really sad story indeed.

But as long as this society and culture doesn't deal with proper sex education for the young students, the problem will get worse. The combination of the mea-noi culture, easy prostitutes and no protection, this problem will get to a point where it will get out of control for sure.

Great post , and its the hidden truth !

And the story probably doesn't end there... This young lady actually had a new boyfriend after the last one left her (the one who had her as a mea-noi). Big chance that he also now got the HIV/AIDS, since they probably with 110% chance had unprotected sex. It's only my speculations, but probably he had a new girlfriend after this woman passed away. And so it will keep on. The circle doesn't break...!

Then one can also speculate on how many would actually stay away from sex, even if they knew they had HIV? Even unprotected sex. The ones that are on medication, may think that they going to be cured, just like when they get paracetamol when they see the local clinic for all kinds of illness. Also a big chance that they just don't care if they give this to anybody else, even if they know they have HIV and should stay away from sex. Even in my own highly "educated country" where I come from, there are <deleted> that seems to actually get pleasure out of passing their HIV to others. Sick or revengeful idiots.

Even if I would divorce my Thai wife and, probably low chance, move back to my own country, I wouldn't trust a stranger woman and having unprotected sex with her. Have a new wife/GF here in Thailand? Same thing. I would use condom and have her (and me) HIV-tested for 9 to 12 months before sex without rubber, in both cases. Strangers can't be trusted. With whom did they have sex with before she met me? Who did that that guy in turn have sex with before he met her? It's easy to get paranoid. But I prefer that, instead of HIV/AIDS. Technically, HIV/AIDS is fully preventable. It's only our habits and way of living, that keeps this thing going on and passed to the coming generations.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Ga-gai

[SNGLIFE]

Somchai dies from head injuries sustained as a result of riding without a helmet because doing so does not look good to the ladies.

T1: "Oh, he was unlucky."

Nit dies from HIV/AIDS from unprotected sex even though she was educated about prevention.

T1: "Oh, she was unlucky."

Same same.

[animatic]

West Nile Encephalitis was transmited in Louisiana by mosquitos.

A specific no to mosquito transmission from an entomologist affiliated with Rutgers

http://www.plymouthmosquito.com/aids.htm

Edited December 21, 2008 by animatic

[Dakhar]

One of the weaknesses of an open forum is that some people will claim to be experts in a particular field of science. As membership in TV does not require one to prove his or her's academic credentials, such claims must be taken with that in mind. There are times when claims by "experts" are just so at odds with published studies and accepted protocol, that it necessitates pointing out the unsubstantiated claim to prevent trusting readers from accepting inaccuracies and references taken out of context.

QUESTION:

Can anyone give an explanation of how any organisation can quote a number of infected people 'who dont know it?'

I am a qualified pharmacologist and am frankly at a loss as to how anyone can arrive at a number of unknown infections - i.e. how do they know?

Gee. You tell me since you are the self described pharmacologist. The math and conclusion criteria are the same as that used for other illnesses. Most people are not tested for cholesterol, triglycerides and blood pressure and yet we predict the likelihood of disease in the same manner as that done for HIV. Most people are not screened for colon cancer, and yet we predict the proportion of the population that has cancer.

QUESTION:

The risk is real but massively overblown - condoms and the lubricants etc is a billion dollar industry. The red cross, UN etc are funded by somebody.

Yes it is a large industry, but so is toilet paper and kleenex. I suppose you don't need to wipe your ass either. Lubricants have nothing to do with this subject. Condoms are used not just for HIV prevention but to prevent unwanted pregnancies and transmission of bacteria, fungi, parasites and viruses. Any funding put into condoms usually pays off by reducing the costs of treatment for those that would otherwise become ill from the non use of a condom. As a pharmacologist, you will probably have come across the cost benefit models in one of your first year courses at the MSc. level, assuming you even completed a masters or a doctorate.

For the record - the micropores in latex are actually larger than the HIV retrovirus particles - bet you don't hear that kind of information too often.

Furthermore - google recent reports re the UN being slammed for their massively manipulated stats on % infections per country.

Dont be negligent, but dont be fooled....

The reference to the micropores is your undoing. The Carey et al study from 1994 that looked at leakage from condoms was run again under more rigorous methods by Voeller et al in 1994 and did not share the same conclusions. More importantly, I suggest you go to your Cochrane reports (you are a pharmacologist so you should have access to the database) and read the Weller & Davis literature review from 2004. All of the studies point to the same conclusion that features prominently in US CDC and WHO positions;

Reference: Weller SC, Davis-Beaty K. Condom effectiveness in reducing heterosexual HIV transmission.

Authors Conclusions: This review indicates that consistent use of condoms results in 80% reduction in HIV incidence. Consistent use is defined as using a condom for all acts of penetrative vaginal intercourse. Because the studies used in this review did not report on the "correctness" of use, namely whether condoms were used correctly and perfectly for each and every act of intercourse, effectiveness and not efficacy is estimated.

No one has ever claimed that condoms were 100% effective, but all studies to date show that access to testing, education and condom use reduce HIV transmission. That was demonstrated over a decade ago in Thailand.

As for the issue of micropores, well yes, there is a chance a condom can be defective. While there may be micropores that allow leakage, the HIV can't make it through as those micropores are smaller than HIV. There is always a chance it can happen. However, for those of us not into playing the odds with our lives, we'll go the condom route.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THAT POST GK...

as soon as i read the "Pharmacologist" post I was thinking a pharmacologist in whacky weed...

[Dakhar]

It's really scaring how little the rural ppopulation really know about HIV, AIDS and other veneral deceases. I've been living here for ten years now, far away from any tourist area. Maybe I see a foreigner 1-2 times a month. And all this traditional mea-noi thing only makes things worse, since usually none of them are monogamous. Nor do they use any protection like condoms.

Anyway...

My wife had a friend that recently died from AIDS. The woman didn't know she had HIV until she got AIDS. She was a mea-noi to a guy working in the office at a local Hitachi factory plant (thai male). One day he made a visit to the woman (his mea-noi) and just told her that he have to move away and not to come back again. She didn't know what he meant. Six months later she felt ill and went to the local hospital. The doctor made some tests and she was later informed that she had AIDS. Towards the she felt so ill that she needed hospital care. She stayed at the hospital for one week, only to get some painkillers and other shots. The doctor then told her that there is nothing more to do. It would be better that she moved back home and stayed with her family for the rest of the time there's left. Me and my made several visits to her. It really was hurting to see her getting thinner and thinner, since she used to be a very good looking pretty girl full of life. Then she passed away. We also attended to her cremation at the local temple. A really sad story indeed.

But as long as this society and culture doesn't deal with proper sex education for the young students, the problem will get worse. The combination of the mea-noi culture, easy prostitutes and no protection, this problem will get to a point where it will get out of control for sure.

Great post , and its the hidden truth !

And the story probably doesn't end there... This young lady actually had a new boyfriend after the last one left her (the one who had her as a mea-noi). Big chance that he also now got the HIV/AIDS, since they probably with 110% chance had unprotected sex. It's only my speculations, but probably he had a new girlfriend after this woman passed away. And so it will keep on. The circle doesn't break...!

Then one can also speculate on how many would actually stay away from sex, even if they knew they had HIV? Even unprotected sex. The ones that are on medication, may think that they going to be cured, just like when they get paracetamol when they see the local clinic for all kinds of illness. Also a big chance that they just don't care if they give this to anybody else, even if they know they have HIV and should stay away from sex. Even in my own highly "educated country" where I come from, there are <deleted> that seems to actually get pleasure out of passing their HIV to others. Sick or revengeful idiots.

Even if I would divorce my Thai wife and, probably low chance, move back to my own country, I wouldn't trust a stranger woman and having unprotected sex with her. Have a new wife/GF here in Thailand? Same thing. I would use condom and have her (and me) HIV-tested for 9 to 12 months before sex without rubber, in both cases. Strangers can't be trusted. With whom did they have sex with before she met me? Who did that that guy in turn have sex with before he met her? It's easy to get paranoid. But I prefer that, instead of HIV/AIDS. Technically, HIV/AIDS is fully preventable. It's only our habits and way of living, that keeps this thing going on and passed to the coming generations.

Amen, no glove no love

[3zie]

A lot of people "donate" blood, which is free. Their real aim is to be tested without having to go in and ask for a test.

Do you (or does anyone) happen to know:-

If the blood taken tested positive, would the donor be advised as such, or would the blood just be rejected?

Would a subsequent donation be declined, with or without giving the reason, or would it be accepted, tested and rejected again?

Without knowing the answers, I would be concerned that donors might be making incorrect assumptions.

I'm told yes (by a nurse who volunteers... although that's just one person and not someone in Red Cross admin), they would be advised, although I have yet to know anyone was informed that their blood had been rejected.

Every 3 months our employees get the opportunity to donate blood and I can confirm that in case of positive test people do get informed by telephone (and not only for HIV).

[smedly]

Regardless of all the opinions and debates on this thread about numbers and statistics there one simple fact, there are people that we all interact possibly every day that have HIV and are unaware, it is a symptomless illness until the individual has imune problems, this is not only in Thailand but throughout the rest of the world, there are most likely pockets of populations where it is more prevalent, to ignore this is careless and dangerous. What also concerns me in Thailand is the fact that after an individual takes the test as this article is encouraging people to do, what is the level of care for those infected.

[sezze]

It's really scaring how little the rural ppopulation really know about HIV, AIDS and other veneral deceases. I've been living here for ten years now, far away from any tourist area. Maybe I see a foreigner 1-2 times a month. And all this traditional mea-noi thing only makes things worse, since usually none of them are monogamous. Nor do they use any protection like condoms.

Anyway...

My wife had a friend that recently died from AIDS. The woman didn't know she had HIV until she got AIDS. She was a mea-noi to a guy working in the office at a local Hitachi factory plant (thai male). One day he made a visit to the woman (his mea-noi) and just told her that he have to move away and not to come back again. She didn't know what he meant. Six months later she felt ill and went to the local hospital. The doctor made some tests and she was later informed that she had AIDS. Towards the she felt so ill that she needed hospital care. She stayed at the hospital for one week, only to get some painkillers and other shots. The doctor then told her that there is nothing more to do. It would be better that she moved back home and stayed with her family for the rest of the time there's left. Me and my made several visits to her. It really was hurting to see her getting thinner and thinner, since she used to be a very good looking pretty girl full of life. Then she passed away. We also attended to her cremation at the local temple. A really sad story indeed.

But as long as this society and culture doesn't deal with proper sex education for the young students, the problem will get worse. The combination of the mea-noi culture, easy prostitutes and no protection, this problem will get to a point where it will get out of control for sure.

Great post , and its the hidden truth !

Yep , completely true . Forget all the butterflying stuff they throw in your face if you are visiting bars etc ... no one has a more loose sexual life that i know of then Thais , allthough they normally start later then in Western world ( in general ) . Visit the cities inside Thailand and the discos there and you'll see what's going on . Everything is always kept indoor , so they are very "innocent" outdoor . but it is actual routine .

The 400k number looks a high number but not surprising . An older Thai friend ( girl ) working in a bar told me that last year all the girls in her bar were tested and showed up a 4 out of 10 rating . That is from 1 bar only , there are many bars , many girls working , many partners Thais and farangs and they do not sit still also .

[mrdome]

geriatrickid, I really appreciate your well balanced and sane reply.

[animatic]

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstract...=102210609.html

CONCLUSIONS:

1. The picture of condom matherial includs micropores less than dimentions of HIV

and never confluent as canal in vertical section.

2. The tested condoms stop HIV and antibodies in our experimental conditions.

**************************

http://www.innotex.com.ua/en/faq.htm

HIV has a size of 100 nanometers in diameter. The molecule of water has a size of 20 — 60

nanometers in diameter; that is much lesser than the size of HIV. If water does not penetrate through the micropores of the condom, HIV also can not pass through, if, evidently, the condom is of high quality and is not damaged. Innotex condoms were tested in A. Fournier Institute in Paris (the WHO center for the research of sexually transmitted diseases) in December of 1988. During the tests Innotex condoms were verified for penetration of some viruses, being of even smaller size than AIDS virus. The results of the tests approved that no virus could penetrate through the membrane of the condom.

The tests with the use of the latest methods, held in Virus Oncology Laboratory in the Paster Institute in Paris, in September of 1989, approved that Innotex condoms form the unconquerable barrier for AIDS virus.

*********************

The only sites I saw regarding micropore transmission as happening

were talking of natural condoms like intestines or lamb skin.

And certain strictly religious sites trying to scare people into abstainance.

These are the people that caused Bush to link international aid

to no info on contraception besides abstinance.

This I see as the main portal for this disinformation.

(One ultra-conservative site went so far as to claim

Phillipines only has 1,900 HIV cases, because it's Catholic,

and Thailand has 750,000 cases because it uses condoms....

An astounding level of stupidity IMHO and one that has had far reaching

highly negative consequences.)

***************************

And from the Centers For Disease Control and Prevention

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00021321.htm

Two reviews summarizing the use of latex condoms among serodiscordant heterosexual couples (i.e., in which one partner is HIV positive and the other HIV negative) indicated that using latex condoms substantially reduces the risk for HIV transmission...

When person-years at risk were considered, the rate for HIV transmission among couples reporting consistent condom use was 1.1 per 100 person-years of observation, compared with 9.7 among inconsistent users....

Condom use reduces the risk for gonorrhea, herpes simplex virus (HSV) infection, genital ulcers,

and pelvic inflammatory disease

In addition, intact latex condoms provide a continuous mechanical barrier to

HIV, HSV, hepatitis B virus (HBV), Chlamydia trachomatis, and Neisseria gonorrhoeae

A recent laboratory study indicated that latex condoms are an effective mechanical barrier

to fluid containing HIV-sized particles.....

No reports indicate that nonoxynol-9 used alone without condoms is effective for preventing sexual transmission of HIV.

Furthermore, one randomized controlled trial among prostitutes in Kenya found no protection against HIV infection

with use of a vaginal sponge containing a high dose of nonoxynol-9

No studies have shown that nonoxynol-9 used with a condom

increases the protection provided by condom use alone against HIV infection.

Editorial Note:

This report indicates that latex condoms are highly effective for preventing HIV infection and other STDs

when used consistently and correctly.

Condom availability is essential in assuring consistent use.

Men and women relying on condoms for prevention of HIV infection or other STDs

should carry condoms or have them readily available....

Natural-membrane condoms may not offer the same level of protection against sexually transmitted viruses as latex condoms.

Unlike latex,

natural-membrane condoms have naturally occurring pores that are small enough to prevent passage of sperm but large enough to allow passage of viruses in laboratory studies (2).

--------------------

References

1. CDC. Condoms for prevention of sexually transmitted diseases. MMWR 1988;37:133-7.

2. Cates W, Stone KM. Family planning, sexually transmitted diseases, and contraceptive choice: a literature update. Fam Plann Perspect 1992;24:75-84.

3. Weller SC. A meta-analysis of condom effectiveness in reducing sexually transmitted HIV. Soc Sci Med 1993;1635-44.

4. DeVincenzi I, European Study Group on Heterosexual Transmission of HIV. Heterosexual transmission of HIV in a European cohort of couples (Abstract no. WS-CO2-1). Vol 1. IXth International Conference on AIDS/IVth STD World Congress. Berlin, June 9, 1993:83.

5. Saracco A, Musicco M, Nicolosi A, et al. Man-to-woman sexual transmission of HIV: longitudinal study of 343 steady partners of infected men. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr 1993;6:497-502.

6. Carey RF, Herman WA, Retta SM, Rinaldi JE, Herman BA, Athey TW. Effectiveness of latex condoms as a barrier to human immunodeficiency virus-sized particles under conditions of simulated use. Sex Transm Dis 1992;19:230-4.

7. Trussell JE, Warner DL, Hatcher R. Condom performance during vaginal intercourse: comparison of Trojan-Enz (trademark) and Tactylon (trademark) condoms. Contraception 1992;45:11-9.

8. Jones EF, Forrest JD. Contraceptive failure rates based on the 1988 NSFG. Fam Plann Perspect 1992;24:12-9.

9. Trussell J, Hatcher RA, Cates W, Stewart FH, Kost K. Contraceptive failure in the United States: an update. Stud Fam Plann 1990;21:51-4.

10. Roper WL, Peterson HB, Curran JW. Commentary: condoms and HIV/STD prevention -- clarifying the message. Am J Public Health 1993;83:501-3.

****************************

A bit more from CDC on prevention targeting informing young women.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/research/prs...eets/condom.htm

Brief Description

The multi-component Condom Promotion intervention is a small group level,

skill-building intervention to reduce risky sex behaviors and STDs among young women.

The single intervention session, delivered to groups of 8-12 women, emphasizes perceptions about sexuality,

beliefs about STDs, and self-efficacy for condom use.

To increase acceptance of sexuality and encourage planning for sexual activity women are shown

a video depicting women’s’ sexuality in popular media. An informational presentation on symptoms,

prevalence, and transmission of STDs is provided to increase perceived susceptibility to STDs,

and a video is shown to alleviate apprehension associated with purchasing condoms.

Women are taught how to properly use condoms, how to be assertive in discussing condom use with their partner,

and how to deal with partner resistance to condoms. Through videos, presentations, role play,

discussions and practice, women learn how to increase their sense of control over their sexual encounters,

increase their STD awareness and perceived susceptibility, and increase self-efficacy for condom use.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/condom.htm

How Effective Are Latex Condoms in Preventing HIV?

Latex condoms, when used consistently and correctly, are

highly effective in preventing heterosexual sexual transmission of HIV,

the virus that causes AIDS.

Research on the effectiveness of latex condoms in preventing heterosexual transmission is

both comprehensive and conclusive.

The ability of latex condoms to prevent transmission

has been scientifically established in laboratory studies

as well as in epidemiologic studies of uninfected persons at very high risk of infection

because they were involved in sexual relationships with HIV-infected partners.

Edited December 22, 2008 by animatic

[sunholidaysun1]

Occassionally , the local hospital in Chiang Rai , take their bus to the bar areas and do blood tests on the working girls or whoever wants the test done for HIV. The results are given straight away .

I know of 2 girls who have HIV but are still working. There doesnt seem to be policing of this and on talking to the local police office , they said, 'Its up to them if they work' there is no law to prevent this in Thailand. If a customer wants to go with a girl then its their business !!

Also I know of one foreigner still living here , who contracted HIV, and in retaliation to being infected decided to (alegedly) go with as many ladies as he could without using protection.

Other foreigners who found out about this , questioned the man , who denied everything , but having a new lady every day with him was questionable. On speaking to the girls , he didnt use protection, so WE knew what he was doing.

The local police again were informed and they did nothing, its not within their laws to stop it . His Embassy were also contacted (alegedly) and informed of what he was doing and they said they had no way of stopping him, they had no jurisdiction here. How many others are doing the same I wonder ? either knowing or not knowing they are infected.

[chrislarsson]

This story shocked me. because this day's nobody have to die because of AIDS, it can be controlled perfectly by proper medication. people who have AIDS even can have a normal productive life .

Your example only shows that the Thai health care system sucks.

This is suggesting that doctors in Thailand would not be aware that medicines exists to slow down the progress of HIV. It sounds a little bit difficult to believe. There must be more behind this story that is not known.

[chrislarsson]

To the people who have doubts about the report i can only say

denial, denial, denial. ignorance, ignorance,ignorance

Their is never any lack of people in forums that can only see things in black or white, and no shades in between.

You know perfectly well that Thai health care sucks. At the same time you trust statistics that are very difficult to estimate, and that are being conducted by organizations that need high numbers to keep the public attention on the subject to sustain their funding.

I am not saying the numbers are not correct, I am merely saying it's difficult to know if they are or not.

[TAWP]

This story shocked me. because this day's nobody have to die because of AIDS, it can be controlled perfectly by proper medication. people who have AIDS even can have a normal productive life .

Your example only shows that the Thai health care system sucks.

This is suggesting that doctors in Thailand would not be aware that medicines exists to slow down the progress of HIV. It sounds a little bit difficult to believe. There must be more behind this story that is not known.

No, it suggest the girl didn't have the wealth to pay for the very high medicine cost.

[sezze]

This story shocked me. because this day's nobody have to die because of AIDS, it can be controlled perfectly by proper medication. people who have AIDS even can have a normal productive life .

Your example only shows that the Thai health care system sucks.

This is suggesting that doctors in Thailand would not be aware that medicines exists to slow down the progress of HIV. It sounds a little bit difficult to believe. There must be more behind this story that is not known.

Yes , money . Doctors know the medicines , and they got them in Thailand ... saw them more then once . Allthough , people are not that smart and have little money . so they do not really give a shit . They do not take medicines because they do not want to spend the money on them , or do not have the money for them . Or b , they justdo not give a shit , i see some they people having a bad cold and they take 1 antibiotic tablet . Not a dose , just 1 tablet ... not helping and even getting it worse .

[Ijustwannateach]

Since they did not post the requested link or contact me regarding their inability to do so, a member who posted an HIV myth has had his post deleted.