Cultural Problems

[Lithobid]

Hi all, I've been living in Thailand for the better part of 4 years now, and I had an interesting "happening" come along, and I was hoping mostly that the Thai's who comment on this forum could offer me some insight into what's going on here. I'm going to keep everything hypothetical, so as to not embarrass anyone.

Situation: A man goes on vacation back to where he used to live and work for 2 or so years. During the time that he lived and worked there, he dated a Thai girl for about a year. Then decided to break it off and being friends would be better. Now since then they've been good friends and get along well at long distances (i.e. where he lives now). But when he visits, the relationship seems to re-kindle and there is some love making and fooling around, and it's an atmosphere as if they were dating again. She has come to visit him in the new area where he lives, and the same behaviors take place. Every time, when it's time to part, it's always we'll be friends and always love each other, not be boyfriend and girlfriend.

Ok that's the background of our history. Now this last vacation trip I took, I went for 2 weeks, and she stayed with me in my apartment for 1 week, best time of my live. After that week she had to go back to work, and I was left alone for a week. Well I decided to go out to some of the girly bars, and play around, scouts honor, no sex, and no kissing, but I speak Thai well, and find the girly bars a great place to practice. Nice views, they'll speak slowly and help teach you.

Come the next weekend, my girl----friend has the weekend off and returns to my appt. I feel that honesty is the best policy always, so I divulge where I'd been the last week. She didn't seem hurt or angry, simply an "it's your life, and we aren't dating". Great I think! We spend Saturday together, and have a wonderful time. Come Saturday night, she say's to me "I want to go to that bar you went to" , I immediately think baaaad Idea, not for her to discover any of the things I've done (again scouts honor!) but I don't think that's the kind of place this nice girl should go to at all. She insists and we go.

Within minutes she is in tears, and wants to leave, we go back to the appt. She tells me that she never wants to talk, see, think, dream of me again, and that she can absolutely not accept this part of my culture.

Here's where I'm confused.

1. I've lived far away for 7 months, and not had another girlfriend. She believes me (or so I think?)

2. We've always loved and believed in each other, supportive, concerning, never ever fighting.

3. How can this one little incident bring this much anger, disgust, resentment on.

Now folks I know the obvious answers to these questions, I've been around the block here. A. She always thinks in the back of her mind that we will get back together. B. Even though we aren't "dating" she is still my property, and I hers, and even talking to a bar girl violates that arrangement. C. She knew what was going on, but seeing it with her own eyes brought down the cultural reality hard core. These answers I know, can anyone provide a further insight into the psyche of this Thai woman’s mind.

Before I leave a little background on her. She's a good girl, never lies, cheats, steals, has a good college education, reads books in her spare time, and has a very respectable job.

Thanks for whoever reads this tale, and can answer or offer some advice.

Lithobid

[Alpinist]

sounds like she really fell for you this time and then seeing the place you enjoyed frequenting in your free time felt that she could not look forward to a meaningful relationship with you. it sounds like it was best let off like this though because if 7 months away is a frequent thing a relationship probably wouldn't work anyways, regardless if you wanted one or not.

[chiangmaibruce]

I also look forward to hearing the views of some of the resident Thai folks here.

In the interim my take on the situation is that you dropped a farang mindset on a Thai and got a predictable result. In particular "the honesty is the best policy" bit is about 180 degrees off here. She would not see this as being honest and caring in the least - but rather you being hurtful by rubbing her nose in your indiscretions. Good luck in trying to extricate yourself from this situation - it's not going to be easy.

[kiakaha]

Hi all, I've been living in Thailand for the better part of 4 years now, and I had an interesting "happening" come along, and I was hoping mostly that the Thai's who comment on this forum could offer me some insight into what's going on here. I'm going to keep everything hypothetical, so as to not embarrass anyone.

Situation: A man goes on vacation back to where he used to live and work for 2 or so years. During the time that he lived and worked there, he dated a Thai girl for about a year. Then decided to break it off and being friends would be better. Now since then they've been good friends and get along well at long distances (i.e. where he lives now). But when he visits, the relationship seems to re-kindle and there is some love making and fooling around, and it's an atmosphere as if they were dating again. She has come to visit him in the new area where he lives, and the same behaviors take place. Every time, when it's time to part, it's always we'll be friends and always love each other, not be boyfriend and girlfriend.

Ok that's the background of our history. Now this last vacation trip I took, I went for 2 weeks, and she stayed with me in my apartment for 1 week, best time of my live. After that week she had to go back to work, and I was left alone for a week. Well I decided to go out to some of the girly bars, and play around, scouts honor, no sex, and no kissing, but I speak Thai well, and find the girly bars a great place to practice. Nice views, they'll speak slowly and help teach you.

Come the next weekend, my girl----friend has the weekend off and returns to my appt. I feel that honesty is the best policy always, so I divulge where I'd been the last week. She didn't seem hurt or angry, simply an "it's your life, and we aren't dating". Great I think! We spend Saturday together, and have a wonderful time. Come Saturday night, she say's to me "I want to go to that bar you went to" , I immediately think baaaad Idea, not for her to discover any of the things I've done (again scouts honor!) but I don't think that's the kind of place this nice girl should go to at all. She insists and we go.

Within minutes she is in tears, and wants to leave, we go back to the appt. She tells me that she never wants to talk, see, think, dream of me again, and that she can absolutely not accept this part of my culture.

Here's where I'm confused.

1. I've lived far away for 7 months, and not had another girlfriend. She believes me (or so I think?)

2. We've always loved and believed in each other, supportive, concerning, never ever fighting.

3. How can this one little incident bring this much anger, disgust, resentment on.

Now folks I know the obvious answers to these questions, I've been around the block here. A. She always thinks in the back of her mind that we will get back together. B. Even though we aren't "dating" she is still my property, and I hers, and even talking to a bar girl violates that arrangement. C. She knew what was going on, but seeing it with her own eyes brought down the cultural reality hard core. These answers I know, can anyone provide a further insight into the psyche of this Thai woman’s mind.

Before I leave a little background on her. She's a good girl, never lies, cheats, steals, has a good college education, reads books in her spare time, and has a very respectable job.

Thanks for whoever reads this tale, and can answer or offer some advice.

Lithobid

As per your account , it seems that this came about due to you wanting to practice your thai(more likely issan though) language skills at girly bars.

I prefer the seminar room or the water cooler at my company for such pursuits.

[Moonrakers]

It's not necessarily a Thai thing.

I sometimes find myself on Soi Cowboy myself, partly because I work on Asoke Rd. When I get home my (Thai) misses may ask where I have been and I tell her. I have no problems with her whatsoever because she knows that I would not play around.

[designersing]

for one its not a cultural problem as you state, perhaps you should practice thai language in school, not whore bars? And you wonder why you have lost her trust? You need to grow up and be a man.

[eek]

I really dont think this is a Thai female thing, but a female thing. Of course I dont know for sure, but from what you say, it sounds like she is a nice girl who has been waiting in the wing for you to finally open your eyes and realise she is worth the long haul/commitment. I think that she may have accepted to be non-confrontational and accept your idea of an having an on-again/off-again/casual relationship, (but knowing you have no other women/relationships/sex), as a way to stay close to you and hopefully have a permanent relationship again. When you went to the girly bar (and openly let her know), her initial reaction was to maybe not rock the boat and think it over, then go and see how 'bad' it actually is before reacting. After she saw the bar, and realised that maybe you are really not going to fully commit to her after all (even if you did nothing with the girls), her hopes about being with you were crushed and she broke down. At times a women may appear to let things slide or act casual about something, but it builds up. When they reach the end of their tether, all the mounting pressure is realised in a flood. (You also dont mention if you were her first proper relationship, which would also have an impact on her hoping to maintain the relationship, even if under the guise of being casual).

Of course, i could be completely off the mark, but twould seem to me to be the most common reason for her reaction.

[Geekfreaklover]

It would be interesting to know if your good lady had any conversations with the women in this said lady bar? ... Maybe it was a case of jelous cat claws being extended? Maybe some lies were spoken by the women in the bar? Maybe she bought the gossip?

Most grown up farang or Thai women understand that males like to go lady bars / go-go bars on occasion and don't have a problem with it.

Jealous issues have a tendancy to get worse.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Geekfreaklover

[chickenslegs]

...can anyone provide a further insight into the psyche of this Thai (insert any nationality here) woman's mind.

When you have the answer to this you will make $$$millions

[Lithobid]

I really dont think this is a Thai female thing, but a female thing. Of course I dont know for sure, but from what you say, it sounds like she is a nice girl who has been waiting in the wing for you to finally open your eyes and realise she is worth the long haul/commitment. I think that she may have accepted to be non-confrontational and accept your idea of an having an on-again/off-again/casual relationship, (but knowing you have no other women/relationships/sex), as a way to stay close to you and hopefully have a permanent relationship again. When you went to the girly bar (and openly let her know), her initial reaction was to maybe not rock the boat and think it over, then go and see how 'bad' it actually is before reacting. After she saw the bar, and realised that maybe you are really not going to fully commit to her after all (even if you did nothing with the girls), her hopes about being with you were crushed and she broke down. At times a women may appear to let things slide or act casual about something, but it builds up. When they reach the end of their tether, all the mounting pressure is realised in a flood. (You also dont mention if you were her first proper relationship, which would also have an impact on her hoping to maintain the relationship, even if under the guise of being casual).

Of course, i could be completely off the mark, but twould seem to me to be the most common reason for her reaction.

Eek! You are wise beyond your years, and I think right on the mark, and yes I was her first love, and first sexual partner, I'm 27 at the time she 32.

There is another angle though that I want your opinion on. As I entered my room right now, I had an epiphany. When I first started dating this girl, I coulnd't speak a lick of thai. As the years went by I learned a few parrot phrases. Now after studying 6 hours a day at a University here in Thailand, I'm almost fluent in casual conversations. I think this warrents two emotional things to happen to this girl.

1. I no longer need her to help me in communication with others, which would give her a feeling of importance and love in helping me perhaps some "face" as well in society and now she's lost that.

2. When she sees me talking and joking with these bar girls in the same manner that I do with her, she automatically compares her self to them, and believes that I think she is exactly the same, eventhough I've repeatedly told her how special she is to me, and done so through many, many actions.

It was at the point that she saw me interact with these bar girls (JUST TALKING!!) that she broke down. I think through the culteral barrier, she is not able to tell the difference between the Thai I speak with them (meaningless to me except for practice) and the Thai I speak with her, which is in true love and appreciate of what a wonderful creature she is.

Let me know your thoughts, you have wonderful insights!

** and a short ammendum for all the other poster so far, this is not a gogo bar or a flirty bar, this is a small bamboo hut with 4 girls working there and the regular x-pats that come at night for their drink and conversation. If you wanted to take these girls home for the night I'm sure you could, but it's tiny, quiet music, beach athmosphere, with a maximun of 8 stools around the countertop.***

Lithobid

Edited January 14, 2009 by Lithobid

[PhilHarries]

She would not see this as being honest and caring in the least - but rather you being hurtful by rubbing her nose in your indiscretions.

It would be interesting to know if your good lady had any conversations with the women in this said lady bar? ... Maybe it was a case of jelous cat claws being extended? Maybe some lies were spoken by the women in the bar? Maybe she bought the gossip?

I'm not a Thai but, to my mind, either of the above two explanations or even a combo is the answer.

cmbruce is right that, in many cases, Thai women tolerate a lot of hanky panky or even outright infidelity provided they are not confronted with the facts. As long as you mess around far from the woman's circle of friends and influence she is, whilst not in any way happy, content. By telling her about it, however innocent IT may have been you were rubbing her nose even maybe, in her eyes, gloating in it.

Gfl may also be right in that who knows what was said between the bg's and "your" girl. It could also be that she didn't believe that you really meant a girly bar complete with P4P candidates. In her mind she believed, hoped, that it would be some nice hotel bar or upmarket place and you were just kidding.

As I say I am not a Thai nor, as it happens, a woman but that's my take on it and I'm sure I'll be corrected by some. The big question is ; does it bother you that she wants to sever all ties? If so maybe you inwardly wanted more of this affair and are now hurting from her rebuttal.

Of course she could, as already mentioned, just be making a final play for you.

Complicated things relationships multi-cultural or not.

[Geekfreaklover]

Most parnters in a relationship would want their partner to be able to speak their own mother tongue. I don't subscribe to the concept that learning a foreign language in a foreign country should be discouraged by native partners.

Your girl, by the sound of it might have jealousy / abandonment issues that need to be approached and discussed delicately.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Geekfreaklover

[GuestHouse]

It seems to me you want to have your cake and eat it.

Never a good idea no matter where in the world you are.

[kat]

Now folks I know the obvious answers to these questions, I've been around the block here. A. She always thinks in the back of her mind that we will get back together. B. Even though we aren't "dating" she is still my property, and I hers, and even talking to a bar girl violates that arrangement. C. She knew what was going on, but seeing it with her own eyes brought down the cultural reality hard core. These answers I know, can anyone provide a further insight into the psyche of this Thai woman’s mind.

Before I leave a little background on her. She's a good girl, never lies, cheats, steals, has a good college education, reads books in her spare time, and has a very respectable job.

Thanks for whoever reads this tale, and can answer or offer some advice.

Lithobid

Yes, as you say, you've been around the block and hit all the important points, but overlooked one: in her female psyche, and in particular her Thai female psyche, she may think that you compare or equate her on some level to the bar girls. Thai women can be so stigmatized in Thai society, but so can the whole bar scene and the men who frequent it.

I really dont think this is a Thai female thing, but a female thing. Of course I dont know for sure, but from what you say, it sounds like she is a nice girl who has been waiting in the wing for you to finally open your eyes and realise she is worth the long haul/commitment. I think that she may have accepted to be non-confrontational and accept your idea of an having an on-again/off-again/casual relationship, (but knowing you have no other women/relationships/sex), as a way to stay close to you and hopefully have a permanent relationship again. When you went to the girly bar (and openly let her know), her initial reaction was to maybe not rock the boat and think it over, then go and see how 'bad' it actually is before reacting. After she saw the bar, and realised that maybe you are really not going to fully commit to her after all (even if you did nothing with the girls), her hopes about being with you were crushed and she broke down. At times a women may appear to let things slide or act casual about something, but it builds up. When they reach the end of their tether, all the mounting pressure is realised in a flood. (You also dont mention if you were her first proper relationship, which would also have an impact on her hoping to maintain the relationship, even if under the guise of being casual).

Of course, i could be completely off the mark, but twould seem to me to be the most common reason for her reaction.

Excellent post on the general female reaction and agree wholeheartedly.

There is another angle though that I want your opinion on. As I entered my room right now, I had an epiphany. When I first started dating this girl, I coulnd't speak a lick of thai. As the years went by I learned a few parrot phrases. Now after studying 6 hours a day at a University here in Thailand, I'm almost fluent in casual conversations. I think this warrents two emotional things to happen to this girl.

1. I no longer need her to help me in communication with others, which would give her a feeling of importance and love in helping me perhaps some "face" as well in society and now she's lost that.

2. When she sees me talking and joking with these bar girls in the same manner that I do with her, she automatically compares her self to them, and believes that I think she is exactly the same, eventhough I've repeatedly told her how special she is to me, and done so through many, many actions.

It was at the point that she saw me interact with these bar girls (JUST TALKING!!) that she broke down. I think through the culteral barrier, she is not able to tell the difference between the Thai I speak with them (meaningless to me except for practice) and the Thai I speak with her, which is in true love and appreciate of what a wonderful creature she is.

Let me know your thoughts, you have wonderful insights!

** and a short ammendum for all the other poster so far, this is not a gogo bar or a flirty bar, this is a small bamboo hut with 4 girls working there and the regular x-pats that come at night for their drink and conversation. If you wanted to take these girls home for the night I'm sure you could, but it's tiny, quiet music, beach athmosphere, with a maximun of 8 stools around the countertop.***

Lithobid

Bingo on point two. Also, your addendum is helpful. I think it is also as you said earlier, that you are no longer dependent on her, and can speak conversational Thai with anyone now, including other Thai women. It was threatening, scary and confusing for her. She obviously still loves you. If you are not serious about her, you should let her go and stop prolonging the expectation.

[sassienie]

It`s a case of severe immaturity on both parts.

The OP is asking questions because he does not have life experiences and knowledge of how to deal with females, their emotions, feelings and the Do`s and Do not`s in a relationship.

The OP and his girlfriend/acquaintance/friend whatever, seem reluctant to 100% commit themselves to each other; yet expect loyalty without any strings attached.

The relationship is either platonic or sexual as BF/GF. Cutting it by trying to be in between does not work in the real world. Once a relationship becomes sexual, than emotions kick in, couples gain feelings for each other, which can lead to problems.

To the OP: grow up and either tell the girl you are only interested in a platonic friendship or commit yourself to her completely, otherwise it appears you are only using this girl for your own desires and convenience.

Edited January 14, 2009 by sassienie

[G54]

It would be interesting to know if your good lady had any conversations with the women in this said lady bar? ... Maybe it was a case of jelous cat claws being extended? Maybe some lies were spoken by the women in the bar? Maybe she bought the gossip?

Most grown up farang or Thai women understand that males like to go lady bars / go-go bars on occasion and don't have a problem with it.

Jealous issues have a tendancy to get worse.

I have friends here that this has happened to. Caused a heap of trouble and took some convinving that nothing happened.

Personally I would not dream of taking a true g/f to a place like that.

Have to agree with eek's insight too.

[Geekfreaklover]

I have friends here that this has happened to. Caused a heap of trouble and took some convinving that nothing happened.

Personally I would not dream of taking a true g/f to a place like that.

Have to agree with eek's insight too.

I'm not sure with that.

I have visited places like NEP and seen many (more so recently) western and Thai/western couples visiting these places. They are drinking and having fun. I think it depends on how comfortable you are in a relationship.

I wouldn't have a problem if my gf wanted to visit a male strip show with some friends (i wouldn't be turning up again to check it out, mind). She wouldn't have a problem if I had arranged to meet a male friend for a beer in soi cowboy. As long is it isn't every weekend!

If you other half wants to cheat they can cheat whilst pretending to be out shopping in the local supermarket.

Jelousy is an ugly emotion born from insecurities.

[Lithobid]

She would not see this as being honest and caring in the least - but rather you being hurtful by rubbing her nose in your indiscretions.

As I say I am not a Thai nor, as it happens, a woman but that's my take on it and I'm sure I'll be corrected by some. The big question is ; does it bother you that she wants to sever all ties? If so maybe you inwardly wanted more of this affair and are now hurting from her rebuttal.

Of course she could, as already mentioned, just be making a final play for you.

Complicated things relationships multi-cultural or not.

A great response, and I think your hitting the nail on my head here. I love her, and want to be a friend to her all of my life, and be a part of her family, as a น้องชาย (little Brother), and if I ever want to attain that status, I must stop any further relations. Thanks for making me think further!

Lithobid

[Lithobid]

It`s a case of severe immaturity on both parts.

The OP is asking questions because he does not have life experiences and knowledge of how to deal with females, their emotions, feelings and the Do`s and Do not`s in a relationship.

The OP and his girlfriend/acquaintance/friend whatever, seem reluctant to 100% commit themselves to each other; yet expect loyalty without any strings attached.

The relationship is either platonic or sexual as BF/GF. Cutting it by trying to be in between does not work in the real world. Once a relationship becomes sexual, than emotions kick in, couples gain feelings for each other, which can lead to problems.

To the OP: grow up and either tell the girl you are only interested in a platonic friendship or commit yourself to her completely, otherwise it appears you are only using this girl for your own desires and convenience.

I just answered this in the last posting, but you are right as well. I am confusing her by continuing relationship behaviors, when I am telling her that I love her in the way that I want to be a member of her family, not marriage but as a sibling. Thanks for making me think this over..

Lithobid

[Lithobid]

I can't tell you all how wonderful the different opinions and advice has been. I'm looking at things with different eyes now. Keep the suggestions comming, and thank you all.

Lithobid

[yabaaaa]

It seems to me you want to have your cake and eat it.

Never a good idea no matter where in the world you are.

I knew a girl like this once occasional sex etc until one day it all changes and one of you gets serious about the other, then what? you've tasted how it could be but its not available

[eek]

I think her reaction is a make or break cue for you. I dont really believe she wants to cut all ties, or she would have done it by now. Just an emotional reaction to the situation. What she is likely hoping for is for you take that cue and tell her you want to be in her life as a permanent exclusive partner. I dont think her reaction is one of jealousy, I think its one of being insecure about what she means to you (especially as you were her 'first'). She has no clear ground to stand on (even though you were honest about wanting friendship, you still had intimate relations, she just wasnt as light hearted about it), so rational has gone out the window.

Good that you are taking time to really think about it all..and please do, really think about it all, and what impact your decision on this may have, on both of you.

Good luck.

Edited January 14, 2009 by eek

[Ijustwannateach]

Sounds like you both have a kind of bad faith fantasy going on- you think of her as 'my girl,' and she thinks of you as a long term prospect- both wrong. Her reaction to seeing what you are capable of despite her presence in your life disillusioned her about you ('he really won't stay with me'), and her disillusionment disillusioned you about her ('this great no-strings-attached connection isn't actually no-strings-attached'). Time for both of you to get real?

[Lithobid]

Boy , you guys/gals are better than therapy!

Lithobid

[MSingh]

Who needs Dear Deidre in The Sun when you've got Thai Visa aye ??

[eek]

Boy , you guys/gals are better than therapy!

Lithobid

The gals/guys on TV have helped me out on many things too (from emotional to practical).

I personally find it can often help to get a broad spectrum of opinions and ideas, before coming to my own conclusion.

I also think its SO much easier to be rational when I am giving advice on someone else's situation. So often my own instincts on something close to home are WAY off the mark!

[WaiWai]

Come Saturday night, she say's to me "I want to go to that bar you went to" , I immediately think baaaad Idea, not for her to discover any of the things I've done (again scouts honor!) but I don't think that's the kind of place this nice girl should go to at all. She insists and we go.

Within minutes she is in tears, and wants to leave, we go back to the appt. She tells me that she never wants to talk, see, think, dream of me again, and that she can absolutely not accept this part of my culture.

Ijustwanna:

Her reaction to seeing what you are capable of despite her presence in your life disillusioned her about you

Quite ... "bad faith" is exactly what it is. Two people perpetuating eachother's inner stories. She requested the visit to the bar, perhaps having subconsciously or even somehat consciously having known for some time she had been self-deluding

She went hoping to be able to preserve her delusion ... deep down, a stronger instinct pushing for her to confront the realities.

"she can absolutely not accept this part of my culture" is a fascinating comment.

I don't know what your culture is but think it is not Thai, yet this '"soft" girlie bar thing & the acceptability of men visiting is Thai (though not only Thai). She is upset by seeing you in these environs, chatting happily with girls from another social stratum because she cannot fulfil that role. At the same time, her Thai social conditioning makes her distance herself from this aspect of "your culture" (you, plus Thai gender roles). She may feel somewhat disconcerted by the attention you gave these girls but desperate let you know she is not such a girl.

This is the traditional Asian way (speaking very generally, of course). The woman you take seriously is wifely, motherly ... it might be somewhat offensive to show much direct sexual interest in her and vice-versa.

Sorry ... not well expressed or elaborated ...not enough time. Hope you can glean something from this, ot that someone else will pick up what I am getting at.

Oh! Forgot to say -- why don't you talk with HER about this? (Once she calms down). Would you say that you two communicate well, on the whole ?

Edited January 14, 2009 by WaiWai

[Sabum]

nm

Edited January 14, 2009 by Sabum

[Lithobid]

Sounds like you both have a kind of bad faith fantasy going on- you think of her as 'my girl,' and she thinks of you as a long term prospect- both wrong. Her reaction to seeing what you are capable of despite her presence in your life disillusioned her about you ('he really won't stay with me'), and her disillusionment disillusioned you about her ('this great no-strings-attached connection isn't actually no-strings-attached'). Time for both of you to get real?

I think you're right, and it's time to draw the line, and build a wall and although that may cause some hurt, and pain in the begining, respect will be gained from that in the long run. Thanks for your shared Ideas.

Lithobid

[Lithobid]

Come Saturday night, she say's to me "I want to go to that bar you went to" , I immediately think baaaad Idea, not for her to discover any of the things I've done (again scouts honor!) but I don't think that's the kind of place this nice girl should go to at all. She insists and we go.

Within minutes she is in tears, and wants to leave, we go back to the appt. She tells me that she never wants to talk, see, think, dream of me again, and that she can absolutely not accept this part of my culture.

Ijustwanna:

Her reaction to seeing what you are capable of despite her presence in your life disillusioned her about you

Quite ... "bad faith" is exactly what it is. Two people perpetuating eachother's inner stories. She requested the visit to the bar, perhaps having subconsciously or even somehat consciously having known for some time she had been self-deluding

She went hoping to be able to preserve her delusion ... deep down, a stronger instinct pushing for her to confront the realities.

"she can absolutely not accept this part of my culture" is a fascinating comment.

I don't know what your culture is but think it is not Thai, yet this '"soft" girlie bar thing & the acceptability of men visiting is Thai (though not only Thai). She is upset by seeing you in these environs, chatting happily with girls from another social stratum because she cannot fulfil that role. At the same time, her Thai social conditioning makes her distance herself from this aspect of "your culture" (you, plus Thai gender roles). She may feel somewhat disconcerted by the attention you gave these girls but desperate let you know she is not such a girl.

This is the traditional Asian way (speaking very generally, of course). The woman you take seriously is wifely, motherly ... it might be somewhat offensive to show much direct sexual interest in her and vice-versa.

Sorry ... not well expressed or elaborated ...not enough time. Hope you can glean something from this, ot that someone else will pick up what I am getting at.

Oh! Forgot to say -- why don't you talk with HER about this? (Once she calms down). Would you say that you two communicate well, on the whole ?

Great reply, and I understand your message. Yes the next step is to talk to her, but the Thai heart needs some time to get itself back togather, and I believe together with ijustwanateach's comment, it's time to make a line. Am I part time lover, or am I the younger brother. I cannot marry her, and cannot commit in that sense, but I love this girl dearly, and want to take care of her and her sisters/mother for the rest of their lives. Therfore, I think by stopping all sexual interaction, but continuing to interact in her life, will eventually give her the message, that I'm serious about being the น้องชาย and not the occasional กิก.

Thanks for your care and comments.

Lithobid.

** Just texted her "How's your heart?" She reply's "Hurts, but still love you" so thanks to all of you, I think it's time I take some real responsability here and to ensure that I am in her life permanently as a friend/adopted family member, the sex needs to stop for good, and a new relationship will form. She really is a good girl, if not I wouldn't care so much. ****

Edited January 15, 2009 by Lithobid