Financial Crisis

[Jingthing]

There you go again! Right wing irrational obsession with debt during a time when the focus should be on the suffering masses.

Debt's a big issue. I've no problem with some debt forgiveness (so long as it's unsecured), but no one should be looking at the government (and other non indebted taxpayers) for a bailout.

It's not as big an issue as massive unemployment and losing millions of people from the work force permanently.

Actually it is. Your not recognizing that tells me you have no idea of the debt outstanding or ho w EVERY single other debt cycle has been rectified. Add no more debt. Cap any debt going forward. Forgive unsecured debt to a certain extent, and let inflation take care of the rest. Inflation fixes everything for the indebted class/governments. Not to good for us savers though.

I'll post this link again. It's called Nobody Understands Debt. I would add you to the list:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/opinion/krugman-nobody-understands-debt.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all

[lannarebirth]

Actually it is. Your not recognizing that tells me you have no idea of the debt outstanding or ho w EVERY single other debt cycle has been rectified. Add no more debt. Cap any debt going forward. Forgive unsecured debt to a certain extent, and let inflation take care of the rest. Inflation fixes everything for the indebted class/governments. Not to good for us savers though.

I'll post this link again. It's called Nobody Understands Debt. I would add you to the list:

http://www.nytimes.c...&pagewanted=all

I'm in the debt business, not in the newspaper business.

[midas]

Debt's a big issue. I've no problem with some debt forgiveness (so long as it's unsecured), but no one should be looking at the government (and other non indebted taxpayers) for a bailout.

It's not as big an issue as massive unemployment and losing millions of people from the work force permanently.

Actually it is. Your not recognizing that tells me you have no idea of the debt outstanding or ho w EVERY single other debt cycle has been rectified. Add no more debt. Cap any debt going forward. Forgive unsecured debt to a certain extent, and let inflation take care of the rest. Inflation fixes everything for the indebted class/governments. Not to good for us savers though.

I'll post this link again. It's called Nobody Understands Debt. I would add you to the list:

http://www.nytimes.c...&pagewanted=all

oh no not Paul Krugman again ! the guy is certifiable and if you are gullible enough to believe he is

a reliable " economist " then perhaps you need some attention also

[Jingthing]

oh no not Paul Krugman again ! the guy is certifiable and if you are gullible enough to believe he is

a reliable " economist " then perhaps you need some attention also

That's funny. The Nobel prize committee thought differently.

[lannarebirth]

oh no not Paul Krugman again ! the guy is certifiable and if you are gullible enough to believe he is

a reliable " economist " then perhaps you need some attention also

That's funny. The Nobel prize committee thought differently.

No doubt, but I'll bet I was carrying more paper than him this last year. It's not an academic exercise for me.

[flying]

That's funny. The Nobel prize committee thought differently.

No THAT is funny!

Sad too........Considering at one time the Nobel Prize meant something.

These days it is given to whackos like Krugman & Obama & for WHAT?

What did they actually do?

Sadly the Nobel prize is now the equal of the prize at the bottom of a box of cracker jack.

LB is right you have no idea & thinking more debt at this time will help shows it.

Have you not noticed how the debt has grown to strangling proportions &

so has unemployment? Has the trillions helped at all?

To grow the debt & create a few jobs while piling debt onto the back of the workers & their futures

will help who exactly? Aside from the few politicians who will claim it as a feather in their cap & the bankers who always win who exactly?

To top it off every time they grow the debt they steal from those who lived by the so called rules & paid THEIR debts & saved some for later. Now their saved for later is worth a whole lot less.

The icing on the cake is every time they bake another debt cake only a crumb falls to actual

workers while the rest goes to defense OFFENSE contractors...Military Industrial Complex,

Politicians, Government that is too big & Banks that are deemed Too Big Too Fail.

No Thanks......Stop digging the hole deeper....Stop kicking the can down the road....

Stop stealing from future generations.....Leave this coutry better than we found it.

You may not have kids but I do.

[Jingthing]

...

You may not have kids but I do.

Irrelevant low blow. Edited January 6, 2012 by Jingthing

[flying]

...

You may not have kids but I do.

Irrelevant low blow.

Was not intedned as a low blow ( I do not know if you have kids or not )

Nor is it irrelevant as increasing the out of control debt is a form of selling the futures of others.

Those for increasing the out of control bill know full well they will not be around to pay it.

All they care is that they get more for themselves now.

But as I said before they do not realize they will get a crumb at best that costs their heirs.......Or future citizens for that matter much more than a crumb.

Edited January 6, 2012 by flying

[JimGant]

Wow, this thread still lives on....and with the same polarization -- Keynesian vs. Austrian schools of thought.

And the truth is somewhere in the middle. Yes, stimulus helped prevent the recession from being even more severe -- as most credible economists will admit to. And a little more stimulus -- like the 2% cut in payroll taxes -- should also be helpful. It's unfortunate that economics is not a science -- so that nay sayers have the latitude to actually blame the stimulus on the economy's slow recovery. Just remember it was the president with the Harvard MBA that started the stimulus (at least he got one thing right in his 8 years).

But this is a fine balancing act, because the annual deficits have to be addressed. And they are, at least piecemeal. Just yesterday the news of bringing home many (most, I hope) troops from Europe, and downsizing the military overall, was a step in the right direction. That we are addressing the deficit problem is actually more important, at this juncture, than the deficit falling. Because the cost of debt is incredibly low, for the US. So we have the latitude to kick start the economy (even more) through stimulus. Get the motor running smoothly, then let out the clutch -- and hope the motor continues.

Greece, however, doesn't have the potential win-win situation we now have -- of the kick-start, then the belt tightening. Time's run out for the kick-start. Their cost of borrowing has become prohibitive. And their unions? Well, when have unions ever been helpful in foul times.

But we're certainly not home free. In between Krugman (a good article on why governments are different from households) and CATO (who's never seen a government job that couldn't be done better by private industry), here's another balanced "not too hot, not too cold" article from Robert Samuelson. (And something for both the Austrian and Keynesian groups.):

http://www.washingto...oD3O_story.html

Be sure and click on the link to the Cleveland Fed article -- some excellent points.

What's sad about democracy, at least ours, is that politicians have to do the wrong things (or nothing at all) to get re-elected. That's why, if Obama gets re-elected, as a lame duck he might just finally adopt the Simpson-Bowles study, modifying the tax code for additional revenues, and adjusting entitlements to reality. Finally doing what's right, and needed doing -- and being able to give the middle digit to the oblivious voters.

[lovetotravel]

oh no not Paul Krugman again ! the guy is certifiable and if you are gullible enough to believe he is

a reliable " economist " then perhaps you need some attention also

That's funny. The Nobel prize committee thought differently.

I think Keiser on Russia Times or that financial sage from zerohedge should have gotten the nod.

[midas]

oh no not Paul Krugman again ! the guy is certifiable and if you are gullible enough to believe he is

a reliable " economist " then perhaps you need some attention also

That's funny. The Nobel prize committee thought differently.

what's the big deal with that? I rely on the analysis of economists based on whether what they are saying

makes sense or not. Occupy Wall Street movement that you say so often represents the views of the

left movement seems to like what Steve Keen says. Maybe he doesn't have one of those " prizes "

but what he says sounds a lot more logical than your hero!

" If we leave it to the basic mechanism by which capitalism eliminates excessive debt which is bankruptcy and a slow grinding process of paying the debt down. Once we get back down to the level of debt that the system actually needs which is far lower than the level of private debt we have now then the process will be over. But that could take something like 20 years."

http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2011/12/03/my-hardtalk-interview-transcribed/

[midas]

...

You may not have kids but I do.

Irrelevant low blow.

it's only you that thinks the burden that would be imposed on the younger generation from the reckless

and extremely selfish policies you are advocating is irrelevant

[midas]

oh no not Paul Krugman again ! the guy is certifiable and if you are gullible enough to believe he is

a reliable " economist " then perhaps you need some attention also

That's funny. The Nobel prize committee thought differently.

I think Keiser on Russia Times or that financial sage from zerohedge should have gotten the nod.

actually I heard it was a tossup between Krugman and the Kardashians

[Jingthing]

...

You may not have kids but I do.

Irrelevant low blow.

it's only you that thinks the burden that would be imposed on the younger generation from the reckless

and extremely selfish policies you are advocating is irrelevant

No, it is OBNOXIOUS to attack people's economics arguments based on your snarky assumptions about their personal life.

[lovetotravel]

oh no not Paul Krugman again ! the guy is certifiable and if you are gullible enough to believe he is

a reliable " economist " then perhaps you need some attention also

That's funny. The Nobel prize committee thought differently.

I think Keiser on Russia Times or that financial sage from zerohedge should have gotten the nod.

actually I heard it was a tossup between Krugman and the Kardashians

Luckily, I know nothing about the Kardashians other than they have a TV show or something like that????

[Jingthing]

Another argument on how this right wing irrational single minded obsession with spending cuts/debt is the wrong road at this time. Like Krugman, I've never said debt isn't important, just that RIGHT NOW economic recovery and reemployment are MORE important:

2012 As 1937 Redux?

...

The mistake far more likely to be repeated, however, is FDR’s. In this scenario, Congress—prodded by the GOP’s fundamentalist Tea Party faction or a Republican president with no appreciation for the history of financial crises—forces a drastic cut in government spending that turns an anemic recovery into another steep downturn.

...

The sane way to deal with US debt is to protect growth with a mix of stimulus and prudent cuts to government spending, not by laying off another million or more government employees.

...

http://www.slate.com...937_redux_.html Edited January 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[Naam]

...

You may not have kids but I do.

Irrelevant low blow.

it's only you that thinks the burden that would be imposed on the younger generation from the reckless

and extremely selfish policies you are advocating is irrelevant

No, it is OBNOXIOUS to attack people's economics arguments based on your snarky assumptions about their personal life.

there... there... JT. i know Flying as a quite levelheaded and fair contributor in this thread. your last accusation is far fetched and definitely not warranted.

[Jingthing]

there... there... JT. i know Flying as a quite levelheaded and fair contributor in this thread. your last accusation is far fetched and definitely not warranted.

It is warranted much. It's suggesting citizens without children are something less. Something the "pro family" hate groups use in right wing politics. Yes, totally offensive and I will stick to that. Edited January 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[midas]

Another argument on how this right wing irrational single minded obsession with spending cuts/debt is the wrong road at this time. Like Krugman, I've never said debt isn't important, just that RIGHT NOW economic recovery and reemployment are MORE important:

2012 As 1937 Redux?

...

The mistake far more likely to be repeated, however, is FDR’s. In this scenario, Congress—prodded by the GOP’s fundamentalist Tea Party faction or a Republican president with no appreciation for the history of financial crises—forces a drastic cut in government spending that turns an anemic recovery into another steep downturn.

...

The sane way to deal with US debt is to protect growth with a mix of stimulus and prudent cuts to government spending, not by laying off another million or more government employees.

...

http://www.slate.com...937_redux_.html

not much evidence of protection of growth here Jingthing?!

" Late Thursday night, American company Hawker Beechcraft was informed by the U.S. Air Force that they were not going to be allowed to compete for an American military aircraft contract." Not allowed ???? <deleted> ???

Obama Administration Sends Weapons Contract to Foreign Company with Ties to Iran

http://www.redstate....h-ties-to-iran/

" Curious that the Obama administration would push out an American manufacturing company who’d been trusted in the past in favor of a company run by a government directly involved in the continuing move towards nuclear capabilities by the nation most hostile to American interests. "

Obama is a bloody disgrace to America !!

Edited January 7, 2012 by midas

[midas]

double post

Edited January 7, 2012 by midas

[waza]

Another argument on how this right wing irrational single minded obsession with spending cuts/debt is the wrong road at this time. Like Krugman, I've never said debt isn't important, just that RIGHT NOW economic recovery and reemployment are MORE important:

2012 As 1937 Redux?

...

The mistake far more likely to be repeated, however, is FDR’s. In this scenario, Congress—prodded by the GOP’s fundamentalist Tea Party faction or a Republican president with no appreciation for the history of financial crises—forces a drastic cut in government spending that turns an anemic recovery into another steep downturn.

...

The sane way to deal with US debt is to protect growth with a mix of stimulus and prudent cuts to government spending, not by laying off another million or more government employees.

...

http://www.slate.com...937_redux_.html

not much evidence of protection of growth here Jingthing?!

" Late Thursday night, American company Hawker Beechcraft was informed by the U.S. Air Force that they were not going to be allowed to compete for an American military aircraft contract." Not allowed ???? <deleted> ???

Obama Administration Sends Weapons Contract to Foreign Company with Ties to Iran

http://www.redstate....h-ties-to-iran/

!

" Curious that the Obama administration would push out an American manufacturing company who’d been trusted in the past in favor of a company run by a government directly involved in the continuing move towards nuclear capabilities by the nation most hostile to American interests. "

Obama is a bloody disgrace to America !!

Another tin foil hat web site

[midas]

Another argument on how this right wing irrational single minded obsession with spending cuts/debt is the wrong road at this time. Like Krugman, I've never said debt isn't important, just that RIGHT NOW economic recovery and reemployment are MORE important:

2012 As 1937 Redux?

...

The mistake far more likely to be repeated, however, is FDR’s. In this scenario, Congress—prodded by the GOP’s fundamentalist Tea Party faction or a Republican president with no appreciation for the history of financial crises—forces a drastic cut in government spending that turns an anemic recovery into another steep downturn.

...

The sane way to deal with US debt is to protect growth with a mix of stimulus and prudent cuts to government spending, not by laying off another million or more government employees.

...

http://www.slate.com...937_redux_.html

not much evidence of protection of growth here Jingthing?!

" Late Thursday night, American company Hawker Beechcraft was informed by the U.S. Air Force that they were not going to be allowed to compete for an American military aircraft contract." Not allowed ???? <deleted> ???

Obama Administration Sends Weapons Contract to Foreign Company with Ties to Iran

http://www.redstate....h-ties-to-iran/

!

" Curious that the Obama administration would push out an American manufacturing company who’d been trusted in the past in favor of a company run by a government directly involved in the continuing move towards nuclear capabilities by the nation most hostile to American interests. "

Obama is a bloody disgrace to America !!

Another tin foil hat web site

What about CBS News - is that a " tin foil hat web site " also ?

" U.S. Rep. Mike Pompeo, a Republican whose Kansas district includes the Hawker Beechcraft plant, said that the Air Force should sit down with the company and explain its decision.

"This is too important — too important to our war fighters, too important to our manufacturing base in America," Pompeo said. "It is too important to our community and it is way too important to taxpayers to not get an answer."

http://www.cbsnews.c...orts-1400-jobs/

Edited January 8, 2012 by midas

[lovetotravel]

This is also from that article, sounds like sour grapes to me. And a chance for tinfoilhat.com to complain:

Taco Gilbert, a vice president of business development at Sierra Nevada, said in an emailed statement that the number of U.S. jobs supported by his company's win of the contract is more than 1,200. Those include 50 new high-tech and engineering positions in Jacksonville, Fla., and those supported through its network of 70 U.S. suppliers in 21 states. He said 88 percent of its Super Tucano is made from parts supplied by U.S. companies or countries that qualify under the Buy America Act.

"''It will be a U.S.-built aircraft and it represents a significant boost to the aerospace industry in Florida and Colorado," Gilbert said.

Embraer has had U.S. operations for more than 30 years and has about 800 U.S. employees, Gilbert said. While other companies have been exporting jobs, Embraer has been expanding its U.S. presence by opening a new production facility in Melbourne Fla.

[bangkaew]

oh no not Paul Krugman again ! the guy is certifiable and if you are gullible enough to believe he is

a reliable " economist " then perhaps you need some attention also

That's funny. The Nobel prize committee thought differently.

the same lot that gave obama a peace prize!

[midas]

This is also from that article, sounds like sour grapes to me. And a chance for tinfoilhat.com to complain:

oh don't be silly

that is not " tin foil hat " material......................

This is " tin foil hat " !

American, British, Israeli and Iranian Warships Sailing Towards Confrontation

What Could Go Wrong?

Looking behind the headlines:

• The people pushing for war against Iran are the same neocons who pushed for war against Iraq. See this and this.
  

• China and Russia have warned that attacking Iran could lead to World War III.
  

• War against Iran was planned at least 20 years ago.
  

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/01/tense-standoff-between-american-british-israeli-and-iranian-warships-all.html

[Jingthing]

oh no not Paul Krugman again ! the guy is certifiable and if you are gullible enough to believe he is

a reliable " economist " then perhaps you need some attention also

That's funny. The Nobel prize committee thought differently.

the same lot that gave obama a peace prize!

Yes they did and the smart money is that he still has about FIVE YEARS to earn it!

[flying]

oh no not Paul Krugman again ! the guy is certifiable and if you are gullible enough to believe he is

a reliable " economist " then perhaps you need some attention also

That's funny. The Nobel prize committee thought differently.

the same lot that gave obama a peace prize!

Yes they did and the smart money is that he still has about FIVE YEARS to earn it!

Therein lies the rub.................There was a time when folks earned what they were awarded BEFORE they were given it.

[midas]

Yes they did and the smart money is that he still has about FIVE YEARS to earn it!

he will be lucky if he has 5 weeks at this rate....

Russian warships dock at Syria's port of Tartus

http://www.chinadail...nt_14400339.htm

and on the economic front.......

" "World's Second (China) And Third Largest (Japan) Economies To Bypass Dollar, Engage In Direct Currency Trade", "China, Russia Drop Dollar In Bilateral Trade", "China And Iran To Bypass Dollar, Plan Oil Barter System","

Edited January 9, 2012 by midas

[Naam]

not exactly a positive development!

Germany paid a negative return to investors at a debt auction for the first time on Monday, highlighting the status of Europe's biggest economy as a safe haven in the current debt crisis. The Bundesbank, which handles German federal debt auctions, sold 3.9 billion ($5 billion) of six-month Treasury bills at an average yield - the return earned by the investor - of minus 0.0122%.

Negative yields effectively mean that investors are willing to pay the German government to take their money, rather than more normally earn a return.

Unlike most longer-dated bonds, treasury bills do not pay interest by way of a coupon but are usually issued at a discount price and then redeemed at par. That means investors pay slightly below the par value and receive the full face value back six months later, pocketing the difference as interest.

But this time, investors paid more than they would receive when the bills mature - the weighted average price was 100.00616 to receive 100 in six months' time.

There was strong demand for the issue, with investors submitting a total 7.08 billion in bids for the 4 billion in bonds on offer.

[midas]

not exactly a positive development!

Germany paid a negative return to investors at a debt auction for the first time on Monday, highlighting the status of Europe's biggest economy as a safe haven in the current debt crisis. The Bundesbank, which handles German federal debt auctions, sold 3.9 billion ($5 billion) of six-month Treasury bills at an average yield - the return earned by the investor - of minus 0.0122%.

Negative yields effectively mean that investors are willing to pay the German government to take their money, rather than more normally earn a return.

Unlike most longer-dated bonds, treasury bills do not pay interest by way of a coupon but are usually issued at a discount price and then redeemed at par. That means investors pay slightly below the par value and receive the full face value back six months later, pocketing the difference as interest.

But this time, investors paid more than they would receive when the bills mature - the weighted average price was 100.00616 to receive 100 in six months' time.

There was strong demand for the issue, with investors submitting a total 7.08 billion in bids for the 4 billion in bonds on offer.

paying a government to look after your money ! proof the world has gone bonkers !