Thai Labor Law And Severance Pay

[stepenwolf1958]

It's not true that Labour Offices will help you. They will show incompetence and to tell you your"case" is not under their jurisdiction( because of this and that-blab blab) and they will leave you alone. All you can do is to engage the lawyer but that is expensive (money and time). So, FORGET about Labour Office's help. Anyway, there NOT ANY of them can speak English.

Main reason is THAIS STICK TOGETHER, so forget about Law and complains to institutions in Thailand.

You really have had a bad experience haven't you? Can't say anyone I know has ever had anything but help from the Labour Office.

Congratulations for high quality of discussion here, about 007 case.

Pity about your low-quality answers.

Phatcharanan, dear friend,

Unfortunately, this is not about my experience.

This happened to the friend of mine. She is from South Africa and I was with her,

I was with Thai translator woman, a friend of mine. So that is why I know about it.

In my 4 years in living & working in Thailand, I saw or heard a number of stories about help from Thai authorities.

If you allow me, I will remind you that all of us forming our attitudes and opinions about anything by gaining experiences in life. Correct?

If you agree then will be clear it is not only about my experiences only. I have my own”cases” but I have stories and cases of several friends and their experiences.

We all have right to make opinions and this is the way.

Regards,Step

[scorecard]

Every legal employee qualifies for severance pay. Even if they say you are a 'temporary hire,' this doesn't hold water after the first year or so (or else no one would ever have any 'permanent employees')- Thai labour law is strong, and if the paperwork has been correct the MOL (Ministry of Labour) will back you up. Insist on your rights, and if that doesn't work hire a lawyer to inform the school you know your rights. They will cave in. Then post their name in our 'schools you don't recommend thread,' as if by coincidence.

IJWT - i'm certainly not trying to pick any holes in your post, but can you post links to any success stories etc. Maybe in newspapers/ajarn.com or indeed on here?

It's just that i'm trying to separate fact from heresay.

Coincidentally, i am pretty much in exactly the scenario that Wangsuda described in his opening post...........

This could be a bit arkward.........

Dear Ijustwanna teach, sorry but your statement "Every legal employee qualifies for severance pay. Even if they say you are a 'temporary hire,' this doesn't hold water after the first year or so (or else no one would ever have any 'permanent employees')..." Is a little too blanket and a little too strong.

Under the Thai labour law:

- If the contract has no end date and the employer finishes the employment then the employee is entitled to severance pay. (Unless of course the employer dismisses the employee for theft, failing to carry out reasonable instructions etc., as well defined in the regulations.)

Severance must also be paid when the employee is asked to retire because of age.

- If the contract does have an end date and, and the end date, is not renewed by the employer then there is no entitlement to severance.

- If the employee resigns there is no entitlement to severance.

Therefore it is in the interests of the employee to ensure that on starting work the contract is clear and all signatures are completed and dated etc.

It is true that, if the employee is entitled to severance and the employer fails to pay, then the Thai courts will take a very serious view of this scenario and find in favor of the employee and quite probable punish the employer with a fine etc. In this regard, over the last 10 years, the Thai courts have become quite serious and are not swayed by 'extra pressures' so to speak.

[scorecard]

i can point you to my own story on this forum!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Compensation...ng-t129026.html

to cut a long story short, i was 'fired' a couple of days before my contract ended, and i took the company to court and won.

You said "before my contract ended", so I interpret your words to mean the contract had an end date, therefore there is no requirement under the Thai labour law for the employer to pay you severance pay, so if your suggesting that the employer fired you early to avoid severance pay then this argument doesn't seem to hold water.

On the other hand, did you win the case because you were dismissed without cause during the life of the contract?

Can you please clarify.

[Ijustwannateach]

Every legal employee qualifies for severance pay. Even if they say you are a 'temporary hire,' this doesn't hold water after the first year or so (or else no one would ever have any 'permanent employees')- Thai labour law is strong, and if the paperwork has been correct the MOL (Ministry of Labour) will back you up. Insist on your rights, and if that doesn't work hire a lawyer to inform the school you know your rights. They will cave in. Then post their name in our 'schools you don't recommend thread,' as if by coincidence.

IJWT - i'm certainly not trying to pick any holes in your post, but can you post links to any success stories etc. Maybe in newspapers/ajarn.com or indeed on here?

It's just that i'm trying to separate fact from heresay.

Coincidentally, i am pretty much in exactly the scenario that Wangsuda described in his opening post...........

This could be a bit arkward.........

Dear Ijustwanna teach, sorry but your statement "Every legal employee qualifies for severance pay. Even if they say you are a 'temporary hire,' this doesn't hold water after the first year or so (or else no one would ever have any 'permanent employees')..." Is a little too blanket and a little too strong.

Under the Thai labour law:

- If the contract has no end date and the employer finishes the employment then the employee is entitled to severance pay. (Unless of course the employer dismisses the employee for theft, failing to carry out reasonable instructions etc., as well defined in the regulations.)

Severance must also be paid when the employee is asked to retire because of age.

- If the contract does have an end date and, and the end date, is not renewed by the employer then there is no entitlement to severance.

- If the employee resigns there is no entitlement to severance.

Therefore it is in the interests of the employee to ensure that on starting work the contract is clear and all signatures are completed and dated etc.

It is true that, if the employee is entitled to severance and the employer fails to pay, then the Thai courts will take a very serious view of this scenario and find in favor of the employee and quite probable punish the employer with a fine etc. In this regard, over the last 10 years, the Thai courts have become quite serious and are not swayed by 'extra pressures' so to speak.

Dear MarkG- I am personally aware of a number of employees who have been awarded severance, and at least a few who had to threaten legal action before they got it. There was very recently a thread where the employee wasn't even entitled to severance but the school paid a bit for him to finish out his term- and I'm aware of a BCC thread on Ajarn (a bit way back) and I think also on here where the threat of legal action produced results.

Haven't read any recent thread where a court case was even necessary, so to find one of those would have to go WAAAAY back.

Dear Scorecard,

I am pretty sure I am correct in saying that after a certain minimum time frame even a contract with an 'end date' becomes a permanent one by default (and by common law and probably by precedent ruling here in Thailand), unless the *position itself* is eliminated- in other words, if a school needs an M.3 science teacher, and you're that person for a few years, if they don't renew your contract it's the same as being fired as a 'permanent' employee and severance is due. This is my understanding from my own employers; you may wish to check with a lawyer for the exact details. Again, labour law wouldn't work if there weren't a law like this- severance would never be due because contracts would never be permanent. I welcome a correction from any actual lawyers on this issue.

[Scott]

I am aware of a school that is being taken to court sometime in February over the issue of unfair termination. I am fuzzy on the details, but will try and find out more (the people involved are not very willing to discuss it). I do know the employer thinks he is completely in the right and should have to pay nothing.

Unfortunately, that school had an employee who was terminated because she was too 'dark'. She was a Filipino. She never pushed the issue of severance, but that would have been an interesting case to see someone explain to a judge!

[aussieboi]

I am aware of a school that is being taken to court sometime in February over the issue of unfair termination. I am fuzzy on the details, but will try and find out more (the people involved are not very willing to discuss it). I do know the employer thinks he is completely in the right and should have to pay nothing.

Unfortunately, that school had an employee who was terminated because she was too 'dark'. She was a Filipino. She never pushed the issue of severance, but that would have been an interesting case to see someone explain to a judge!

Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can give me the actual address of the Thai Labor Office in Bkk. that handles these cases, thanks in advance.

[Loaded]

I am aware of a school that is being taken to court sometime in February over the issue of unfair termination. I am fuzzy on the details, but will try and find out more (the people involved are not very willing to discuss it). I do know the employer thinks he is completely in the right and should have to pay nothing.

Unfortunately, that school had an employee who was terminated because she was too 'dark'. She was a Filipino. She never pushed the issue of severance, but that would have been an interesting case to see someone explain to a judge!

My experience of labour court is that the court doesn't care too much about reasons for termination; however, they are very strict regarding the procedure of the termination. This is where many employers are weak as they don't cross all 't's and dot all 'i's. During the mediation stage, the labour courts' solicitors will gleefully point out to the employer that they will lose their case if it goes to the court stage as they didn't explicitly state reasons for termination in the termination letter, or the employee didn't sign for their first verbal warning, or the court's interpretation of 'serious offence' is different to the employer's. Hence, at the mediation stage, many employers will compromise and pay something as they fear the court stage. Payment doesn't necessarily mean the employer was unfairly dismissed.

We had a Thai employee who issued a receipt from her own receipt book for a student payment, kept the money for 6 months until the missing payment was discovered accidentally during an audit. At the mediation stage, the court solicitor pointed out we would lose the case if it went to court as our termination letter wasn't explicit enough. We learned from this and now all employees follow a far more controlled and strict procedure when working for us. It's less fun for them and far more warnings are issued as we don't want to be in the situation of paying money to a thief again.

[mpetersen]

And also people......yearly contracts are exactly that, a contract for one year. if the school or company want to change your salary or conditions then they can. you have no recourse other than to find another job/contract that is better.

Of course most employers like to keep their employees relatively happy. at my school a lot of the teachers are grumbling that the annual pay rise is less this year (300 baht a month less). and some can't comprehend that a 12 month contract is exactly that. a contract for 12 months.

That is not true... Whether you have annually renewed contracts, no contracts, or just full term permanent employment, what counts is the total period served with the employer. However, in my opinion (I am an employer in Thailand), if you don't re-sign the renewal, then you are effectively resigning and definitely not owed severance. If the employer, however, does not offer a renewal, or does not continue to employ you , then you are indeed entitled to full severance under Thai labor law.

m

[mpetersen]

Every legal employee qualifies for severance pay. Even if they say you are a 'temporary hire,' this doesn't hold water after the first year or so (or else no one would ever have any 'permanent employees')- Thai labour law is strong, and if the paperwork has been correct the MOL (Ministry of Labour) will back you up. Insist on your rights, and if that doesn't work hire a lawyer to inform the school you know your rights. They will cave in. Then post their name in our 'schools you don't recommend thread,' as if by coincidence.

IJWT - i'm certainly not trying to pick any holes in your post, but can you post links to any success stories etc. Maybe in newspapers/ajarn.com or indeed on here?

It's just that i'm trying to separate fact from heresay.

Coincidentally, i am pretty much in exactly the scenario that Wangsuda described in his opening post...........

This could be a bit arkward.........

Dear Ijustwanna teach, sorry but your statement "Every legal employee qualifies for severance pay. Even if they say you are a 'temporary hire,' this doesn't hold water after the first year or so (or else no one would ever have any 'permanent employees')..." Is a little too blanket and a little too strong.

Under the Thai labour law:

- If the contract has no end date and the employer finishes the employment then the employee is entitled to severance pay. (Unless of course the employer dismisses the employee for theft, failing to carry out reasonable instructions etc., as well defined in the regulations.)

Severance must also be paid when the employee is asked to retire because of age.

- If the contract does have an end date and, and the end date, is not renewed by the employer then there is no entitlement to severance.

- If the employee resigns there is no entitlement to severance.

Therefore it is in the interests of the employee to ensure that on starting work the contract is clear and all signatures are completed and dated etc.

It is true that, if the employee is entitled to severance and the employer fails to pay, then the Thai courts will take a very serious view of this scenario and find in favor of the employee and quite probable punish the employer with a fine etc. In this regard, over the last 10 years, the Thai courts have become quite serious and are not swayed by 'extra pressures' so to speak.

You can figure that the "end date" provision applies in case of employment for under one year, and on the first contract only. Once multimple renewals have been in place, you can consider it full time permanent employment, qualifying for severance.

(Un)fortunately (depending on whether you are employer or employee) Thai law is very much in favour of the employee.

[LazySlipper]

Hi, I am new to this forum and happy to have joined.

I actually "got asked" to leave a school in a somewhat crappy way.

I got a lawyer and started the process of suing the school. It took one month and we arranged a settlement. I did not have to go to court and I got two months severance pay.

I could have gotten more but it would have taken longer. As foreigners we are bound by the Thai Teaching law of 2542, but we also have our contracts. As foreigners our contracts supercede the Thai teaching law. You are protected only and only if you have completed your probation.

When you start suing a school you have two choices. You can either go to the Local Education Area Office and fight your case there... you will be heard by the LEAO board and the most you can hope for is 2 months. If you lose here you have no appeal. If you decide to use your contract as your bargaining chip, you will then have the choice of going to the Civil court or the Labour court.

This is as complicated as it seems.

The civil court requires a deposit of 2% of the amount you are suing for. The labour court requires nothing. Had my case gone to court I would have had to pay the lawyer 25.000 bht for admin stuff and 10% of my winnings.

In the matters of visas. If you are suing a school, your lawyer can get you a visa extension or something or other because you are taking care of legal matters in Thailand. That means your lawyer can arrange for you to stay here on a special visa until your case is done with.

A school can legally fire you with a one month notice. Regardless of what your contract usually says (3 months usually). If they fire you before one month you can sue them for "tokchai" fear... roughly translated... and for 1 month severance pay. This is the minimum you can go for.

If you decide to go to a court... civil or labour, you can sue them for the remaining time left on your contract.

I fought and I won. I hope this has been a little bit helpful. When people tell me that going to court is expensive I tend to disagree. 25.000bht here compared to what it would cost back home is nothing. Back home it is 6.000bht an hour consultation for fees.

I find it sad that so many people get fired unjustly and just do nothing about it. Maybe our working conditions here in Thailand would improve if people actually invoked their rights, but that is just my humble opinion.

Good luck

[Scott]

Aussieboi: Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can give me the actual address of the Thai Labor Office in Bkk. that handles these cases, thanks in advance.

I don't know, but there are threads with addresses and phone numbers to gov't offices. Anyone know of one, just off hand?

[aussieboi]

Aussieboi: Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can give me the actual address of the Thai Labor Office in Bkk. that handles these cases, thanks in advance.

I don't know, but there are threads with addresses and phone numbers to gov't offices. Anyone know of one, just off hand?

Yes thanks for that Scott, I'm searching thru but am a bit confused as to the correct one to go to...

I'll have a fresh look again tomorrow.

[culicine]

Severance certainly IS payable (even on one year contracts). Recently a teacher at out private school was awarded 9 months severance. NEVER sign a resignation letter - make the school fire you. If you resign you are not entitled to severance.

[steve15]

According to Thai labour law, you are entitled to severance pay if you are dismissed, unless you are dismissed for a 'course', for breaking rules or whatever. But suppose the course is a fabrication, and it ends up word against word, then what do you do. I mean this is Thailand

[Phatcharanan]

According to Thai labour law, you are entitled to severance pay if you are dismissed, unless you are dismissed for a 'course', for breaking rules or whatever. But suppose the course is a fabrication, and it ends up word against word, then what do you do. I mean this is Thailand

Yeah right. Would never happen in Europe huh?

[Scott]

Dismissals happen most everywhere. Sometimes the dismissal is not warranted or not fair. Sometimes an employee has not been informed of his flaws or hasn't been informed in a proper manner. That is the reason that labor laws exist and there are courts set up specifically to handle these situations.

[aussieboi]

Aussieboi: Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can give me the actual address of the Thai Labor Office in Bkk. that handles these cases, thanks in advance.

I don't know, but there are threads with addresses and phone numbers to gov't offices. Anyone know of one, just off hand?

Yes thanks for that Scott, I'm searching thru but am a bit confused as to the correct one to go to...

I'll have a fresh look again tomorrow.

Having looked more thru this site, and googled the Labor Office info, I have found this address,

Ministry of Labour Thanon Mitmaitri , Dindaeng , Bangkok 10400, and am wondering if anyone has had any experience with this office, or if I am even correctly on track (knowing that there will be various sections that deal with various issues) ??

Edited February 16, 2010 by aussieboi

[Scott]

Aussieboi, it seems we don't have too many people who can help you--including me. I did find this site on the forum:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/List-Royal-T...it-t134215.html

I didn't check through it, but it might help you.

[aussieboi]

Aussieboi, it seems we don't have too many people who can help you--including me. I did find this site on the forum:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/List-Royal-T...it-t134215.html

I didn't check through it, but it might help you.

Thanks for the info, Scott, looked thru it, & the small English section mostly confirmed that the address I printed above, at Dindaeng, is correct, went there with a Thai friend on Tuesday, it's about a 75 baht ride by taxi from Victory Monument, went thru a couple of shortcuts past other government offices, and arrived after about a 10 minute trip, went up to the 12th floor of the Ministry of Labour & Social Welfare where I lodged my paperwork. Most staff only speak Thai, luckily a guy who handles these cases, & speaks good English, was on his way out just after I arrived, he asked for my details, & said he would contact me within several days. He also mentioned that there were quite a few cases that were keeping him busy right now !!

I think I'm on the right track.

[stevo2]

I haven't read through the whole thread but believe that this could be a new scenario.

I have been working at the same Government school for 3 years. Just now coming up to the 4th contract renewal. Each year the contracts have become more and more difficult to get done.

Basically the Assistant Director doing the contracts runs the school budget too.

1st year was a 12 months contract. 2nd year was 12 months,for visa purposes only, with 11 months pay. Last year was 10 and a half months pay. All previous contracts have been renewed as of 1st April as the old ones ran out on 31st March.

Hope you are with me so far!!!!

This year she has decided that the new contract cannot be signed until 1st May.

This must mean that she is effectively sacking me for a month and then reemploying me.

So.......................... you all know the next question.

Can I plead ignorance until the 31st March and then ask for severence?(I have already decided that I am moving on by the way).

Your thought would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Scott]

Not a particularly wise decision on the part of the school. What happens with your visa and work permit? This may not be a big issue, but unless I had a letter or something from the school that states that they intend to renew your contract, I would be suspicious.

Do they take out probation money? You might be able to get it back, if so.

Keep us posted.

[stevo2]

I am married with a child here in Thailand so I can ask for a 60 day extention on my visa. I would cancel/allow my work permit to expire.

I have been a little suspicious of this school for a while and have already explored other options. The 60 days should be enough time to get something else.

I have no doubt that the school will give a new contract in May, if I want it.

Scott? You said "Not a wise decision by the school". Does this mean that you think they are shooting themselves in the foot on this one?

The only money that will be owed to me by the school will be 31st March salary. Would be nice to have a few months severence in there as well.???

[BruceMangosteen]

Anyone have experience with the Teachers Council and/or the qualification aspect of renewals entering into a decision not to renew and thus, the question of severance being due? As an example, you work in a Government primary school for three years, then are told your contract won't be renewed because of new requirements i.e. you need an Education degree and a TL. A new set of requirements which you don't meet. You have three years with the employer and no other cause for non-renewal.

[BruceMangosteen]

I have it on good authority that Thai Government schools who hire farang teachers don't have to pay severance. They are and/or the status of the worker makes them exempt. Anyone who has received severance from a Government school please post. We are referring to non renewal of contracts etc.. We aren't referring to meeting the terms of a contract or a goodwill payment of a month or three. I didn't re-read this thread. Just getting to the bottom line. Anyone?

Edited June 12, 2010 by BruceMangosteen

[sinnus99]

I'm on extension of staybased on marriage and working.

2 weeks ago my company extended my expiring 1 yr workpermit by 3 months. Now I worked 1 year and 2 weeks.

My contract is open ended with 6 months probation,which I have passed last year in June. After 1 year of employement I'm entitled for 3 weeksvacation based on my contract.There is also a 1 week notice requirement in case of resigning or termination in the contract for both parties.

If my company terminate my employment now, based on Thai labor law,what I'm entitled for? No issue about gross negligence or warnings.I worked 1week after the last pay.

Am I entitled for 3 months of salary + 1 weekwork + 1 week notice time + 3 weeks vacation salary?

If the company decide to pay all,would they deduct any taxes or social security? Usually the first 200,000 bathincome per tax year in not taxable.

If they give me a letter about thetermination or if they pay me cash and ask me to resign. Whoseresponsibility is to return the work permit to the labour office?

If they offer me less than I'm entitled for,what is my recourse - go to Labor Ministry and file complaint. How long is thatprocess? Should I hire a lawyer?

Sorry for the many questions but I have to be prepared and know my entitlement because my company do try to stiff employees, if they can.

Thanks for all advice.<br style="mso-special-character:line-break"><br style="mso-special-character:line-break">

[Scott]

In your post, you refer to a 'company'. Is the company a school? If it's a school, it makes a difference whether it is a government school or a private school. Private schools have some exceptions to the Thai Labor Law with regard to severance pay.

[sinnus99]

My company is a privately owned, for profit business. They are not in the education industry. I work as sales manager and my division exceeded all targets for 2010.

Edited January 23, 2011 by sinnus99

[Scott]

Your probably technically in the wrong forum, but I hope the information here is helpful. There are a number of threads with contradictory information and I found one link to a portion of the Thai Labor Law:

http://www.worldwideconsulting.com/thailand.htm

At one point someone had posted a PDF file with a more comprehensive version of the law, but hope the link is helpful. Can use the search function to look at various threads about severance.

Perhaps someone remembers the thread with the labor law?