Why A Non Thai Can Never Integrate In Thailand

[Freddie_fly]

I can't wait for someone to justify the Thai position, keeping in mind that if their home country tried to do that, there would be a human rights case before the homeland national courts.

[/color][/color]

I hope you're not from America. In the USA if you want to be president, you have to have been a US citizen BY BIRTH. Legal immigrants who are citizens of the United States are not eligible for the job, only people born in the US.

I think there may be a caveat there, I seem to remember that a recent candidate for president was born outside the USA specifically the Panama canal zone,

I wasnt aware that the Panama canal zone was US soil ??

Correct me if I am wrong.

regards

Freddie

Edited February 6, 2009 by Freddie_fly

[wolf5370]

or we could turn our attention to the chinese influence throughout all business and politics in thailand

i still do not accept that the ability to put yourself up for election in a public office (good luck getting votes anyhow!) has anything whatsoever to do with 'human rights' and cannot imagine what else would be considered a 'human right' if that were to be included

When woman didn't have the vote (sufferage) was it against their rights? When blacks in the USA didn't have the vote, was it agaianst their rights? Hopefull, we agree on yes. Well, if we agree that they should be able to vote, then why not be able to stand? Why is that sacresant? I repeat from earlier, if I you make someone a citizen, then that should confer the same rights as another citizen.

What about this scenario. Not so long ago, Thailand used to try and force Thai Nationals that took up a dual Nationality to give up their Thai Citizenship first. Imagine a Thai couple doing this. Their son/daughter could apply for Thai Citizenship when he was old enough and would probably get it - though both his parent are Thai by birth and s/he may have even been born in Thailand and lived there all their life (maybe brought up by the grandparents) - yet that person can not stand as they were not Thai by Birth.

[lannarebirth]

I can't wait for someone to justify the Thai position, keeping in mind that if their home country tried to do that, there would be a human rights case before the homeland national courts.

[/color][/color]

I hope you're not from America. In the USA if you want to be president, you have to have been a US citizen BY BIRTH. Legal immigrants who are citizens of the United States are not eligible for the job, only people born in the US.

I think there may be a caveat there, I seem to remember that a recent candidate for president was born outside the USA specifically the Panama canal zone,

I wasnt aware that the Panama canal zone was US soil ??

Correct me if I am wrong.

regards

Freddie

The USA had a 100 year leasehold interest of the Panama Canal and Panama Canal Zone. Also military bases which qualify as American soil for the purposes of electoral eligibility.

[Jingthing]

Correct me if I am wrong.

At the time the Panama Canal Zone was administered by the USA military. In any case, I don't think there is a requirement to be born in the US territory, just to be a citizen (American parents). One weird aspect of US immigration law is that anyone born in US territory can be a US citizen even if both parents are foreigners, even illegal foreigners. Talk about a liberal policy.

I for one don't want to be a Thai politician!

Edited February 6, 2009 by Jingthing

[Freddie_fly]

Correct me if I am wrong.

At the time the Panama Canal Zone was administered by the USA military. In any case, I don't think there is a requirement to be born in the US territory, just to be a citizen (American parents). One weird aspect of US immigration law is that anyone born in US territory can be a US citizen even if both parents are foreigners, even illegal foreigners. Talk about a liberal policy.

But, it was not US Soil. And the constitution does I belive include the following phrase "natural born citizen". This is I believe a grey area that has never actually been challenged in the courts, but is open to being challenged, Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona territory before it became a state and there was speculation over his eligability, Also George Romney a candidate was born in Mexico but it was never tested, Lowell Weicker Jr was born in Paris and sought a legal ruling and was told he was 'probably' eligible, and the 21st president Chester Arthur was rumoured to have actually been born in Canada.

regards

Freddie

[Jingthing]

The phrase "natural born Citizen" is not defined anywhere in the Constitution

OK, a grey area perhaps. However, I still think someone born to citizen parents abroad would be deemed eligible. Edited February 6, 2009 by Jingthing

[kiakaha]

Its my experience that any Expat that stays here long enough will lose out.

My prediction, based on 6 plus years of living here, get out now while the the getting is good.

only 6 years ? you're just a baby

what are you other thai related qualifications that lead you to this nihilistic point of view, because I have been working here more than twice your tenure and work with other foreigners who've been here 20, 30 years..and are all very much "winning" , so to speak.

What are you calling Winning? Ive had a pretty good adventure over here and always planned to go back to America in a few years. I was in a pretty serious business deal three days before the Airport got over ran with idiots which collapsed the deal and put it back to ground zero after a couple years work getting the people together. The same deal I can do in America in a week it takes two years to do here, is that winning? The paperwork nightmare over here is just ridiculous, try to do anything with honor and keep it legal and your in for a world of mental anguish.

If my goal in life was simple and I was happy to sit and drink beer every evening with a bunch of drunks and I was to stupid to understand how terrible the health care system is here life would be great. I have two places in America, and one house in Thailand. Both places in America have ultimate privacy and security, one offers helicopter flights for emergencies and the other one has first class emergency services with helicopters available if needed, all covered by insurance 100%.

My house in Thailand, a first class home in a exclusive gated community offers idiotic security guards who are to old to fight off a teenage school girl. They spend their days and nights riding bicycles around and drinking cheep whiskey. In case of Emergency a couple truckloads of baffoons will show up, more than likely get into a fight, throw you in the back of a truck and if they can, they will empty your pockets of money and your neck of gold if your silly enough to wear gold. Then half arsed doctors will take wild guesses about your condition and if you live it will be because you were going to live without the hospital anyway and your bill will end up with all kinds of charges for services and medications you never saw or received. The staff at the hospital, to simple to figure out basic paperwork will refuse to accept your insurance forcing you to go to their office in person and pay with cash or a credit card and then do all the paperwork to submit your own bill to insurance and wait a year to get your money refunded.

Dont bother with driving, not to mention the expense of a vehicle, its constantly being pulled over for no paticular reason and having hands go out for payments that becomes a bother. One of my favorite was when the cop reached for money and I stuck my hand out the window and shook his hand, said thanks, and drove off leaving him standing there. If you do have a accident, well, there's a 99% chance you will have to pay and your insurance will do everything they can to get out of doing anything. Having damage done to one of my trucks by teenagers who I caught and got their names and addresses the police offered me this advice, "We never go over there, its a bad neighborhood, the people are very bad there" but the funny thing was, its a beautiful place beside a nice lake but there is a 6 square block slum down a small ally that cannot be seen from where I parked under a beautiful shady tree.

Anyone who enjoys playing a game where the goals are constantly moved and the winner is always predetermined by his ability to influence with illegal payoffs, enjoy the ride. I have had a good run, had some great experiences and will spend the rest of my life looking back to my life in Thailand before the internet when I lived in some pretty wild and untouched by western culture areas. For me its just onto the next adventure as I have done everything I wanted to do here and its time to move on and take care of business. Because I'm leaving with more than I had when I arrived, maybe I'm a winner after all!

Back on topic, Trink said it best, "If you want leave Thailand with a little money, you should bring a lot when you come" or something along those lines. The absolute majority of Farang who fancy themselves as Thai usually end up getting a heck of a wake up call in the end if they don't end up dead from drink, stress, or violence. Personally I don't have anything good to say about what I believe will happen here over the next two years but there will most assuredly be bad times a coming and no Expats will be running for governor anytime soon. Just makes me wonder, how many Thai Americans are in office in the States? Certainly there are plenty of Thai Americans running successful businesses there.

By winning I mean setting goals for myself and my family and achieving them. However, not everyones situation is the same....I am not a business owner, as long as i've been here i've been shielded from a lot of crap by the company I'm deployed with . I find that being able to read thai(well enough to read the thai newspaper) and therefore speak correctly to a high level also makes a huge difference to "winning" (cultural adaptation), just my opinion. And I dont really drink or party at all, so that side of Thailand that can easily detract one from their goals is not a factor. By design, we keep all assets abroad and live a totally serviced/leased lifestyle in Thailand, so no ownership headaches on that front. Own a house in the west, could up and go in and instant if the $hit hit the fan. Regarding healthcare, I have never required emergency services, but for regular healthcare I've had no problems. I find a leased car & driver package solves all headaches on that front.

Point being, you can "win" in thailand..it is very much about how you adapt yourself, your situation and your ability to focus on achieving your goals.

[dave9988]

You aren't Thai. And why would a Thai person even respect you when you have so little respect for your own country? Alpha males tend to dominate in their own environment. Lions don't tend to wander off out of the jungle and into the forest if you know what I mean.

Alpha male humans tent to prosper in whatever environment they live in, pass through, or relocate to as in the cases of the aforementioned Bill, or Jim Thompson, or Adoph Link, etc.

There are always exceptions to the rule, and those exceptions tend to be the most alpha of alphas, but as a general rule, those who are born in a first world country and end up in a second world country are more likely to not be alpha males. living in a place where you are in general at a social disadvantage, suggests that you are weak, anti social, and undependable. Even marrying a women from another culture expresses a sort of weakness which I am sure you understand.

My point was essentially that I see many farang who seem to attempt to win the respect of Thais by becoming Thai which in their minds is wearing a jetucram, color coordinating their wardrobe based on the day or week, praising everything Thai, defending Thai style democracy, wanting to be a Thai citizen and run for government, etc.

I could certainly be wrong, but i think in general, Thai people just laugh behind their backs and look at them as comedy relief. sort of the way farang mistake katoeys as being accepted in Thai society, as opposed to just being a novelty/form of comedy relief.

people wont like this, but if you want a Thai to respect you, drive a nicer car than they do.

Edited February 7, 2009 by dave9988

[Mai Krap]

Its my experience that any Expat that stays here long enough will lose out.

My prediction, based on 6 plus years of living here, get out now while the the getting is good.

only 6 years ? you're just a baby

what are you other thai related qualifications that lead you to this nihilistic point of view, because I have been working here more than twice your tenure and work with other foreigners who've been here 20, 30 years..and are all very much "winning" , so to speak.

What are you calling Winning? Ive had a pretty good adventure over here and always planned to go back to America in a few years. I was in a pretty serious business deal three days before the Airport got over ran with idiots which collapsed the deal and put it back to ground zero after a couple years work getting the people together. The same deal I can do in America in a week it takes two years to do here, is that winning? The paperwork nightmare over here is just ridiculous, try to do anything with honor and keep it legal and your in for a world of mental anguish.

If my goal in life was simple and I was happy to sit and drink beer every evening with a bunch of drunks and I was to stupid to understand how terrible the health care system is here life would be great. I have two places in America, and one house in Thailand. Both places in America have ultimate privacy and security, one offers helicopter flights for emergencies and the other one has first class emergency services with helicopters available if needed, all covered by insurance 100%.

My house in Thailand, a first class home in a exclusive gated community offers idiotic security guards who are to old to fight off a teenage school girl. They spend their days and nights riding bicycles around and drinking cheep whiskey. In case of Emergency a couple truckloads of baffoons will show up, more than likely get into a fight, throw you in the back of a truck and if they can, they will empty your pockets of money and your neck of gold if your silly enough to wear gold. Then half arsed doctors will take wild guesses about your condition and if you live it will be because you were going to live without the hospital anyway and your bill will end up with all kinds of charges for services and medications you never saw or received. The staff at the hospital, to simple to figure out basic paperwork will refuse to accept your insurance forcing you to go to their office in person and pay with cash or a credit card and then do all the paperwork to submit your own bill to insurance and wait a year to get your money refunded.

Dont bother with driving, not to mention the expense of a vehicle, its constantly being pulled over for no paticular reason and having hands go out for payments that becomes a bother. One of my favorite was when the cop reached for money and I stuck my hand out the window and shook his hand, said thanks, and drove off leaving him standing there. If you do have a accident, well, there's a 99% chance you will have to pay and your insurance will do everything they can to get out of doing anything. Having damage done to one of my trucks by teenagers who I caught and got their names and addresses the police offered me this advice, "We never go over there, its a bad neighborhood, the people are very bad there" but the funny thing was, its a beautiful place beside a nice lake but there is a 6 square block slum down a small ally that cannot be seen from where I parked under a beautiful shady tree.

Anyone who enjoys playing a game where the goals are constantly moved and the winner is always predetermined by his ability to influence with illegal payoffs, enjoy the ride. I have had a good run, had some great experiences and will spend the rest of my life looking back to my life in Thailand before the internet when I lived in some pretty wild and untouched by western culture areas. For me its just onto the next adventure as I have done everything I wanted to do here and its time to move on and take care of business. Because I'm leaving with more than I had when I arrived, maybe I'm a winner after all!

Back on topic, Trink said it best, "If you want leave Thailand with a little money, you should bring a lot when you come" or something along those lines. The absolute majority of Farang who fancy themselves as Thai usually end up getting a heck of a wake up call in the end if they don't end up dead from drink, stress, or violence. Personally I don't have anything good to say about what I believe will happen here over the next two years but there will most assuredly be bad times a coming and no Expats will be running for governor anytime soon. Just makes me wonder, how many Thai Americans are in office in the States? Certainly there are plenty of Thai Americans running successful businesses there.

By winning I mean setting goals for myself and my family and achieving them. However, not everyones situation is the same....I am not a business owner, as long as i've been here i've been shielded from a lot of crap by the company I'm deployed with . I find that being able to read thai(well enough to read the thai newspaper) and therefore speak correctly to a high level also makes a huge difference to "winning" (cultural adaptation), just my opinion. And I dont really drink or party at all, so that side of Thailand that can easily detract one from their goals is not a factor. By design, we keep all assets abroad and live a totally serviced/leased lifestyle in Thailand, so no ownership headaches on that front. Own a house in the west, could up and go in and instant if the $hit hit the fan. Regarding healthcare, I have never required emergency services, but for regular healthcare I've had no problems. I find a leased car & driver package solves all headaches on that front.

Point being, you can "win" in thailand..it is very much about how you adapt yourself, your situation and your ability to focus on achieving your goals.

So by your own statement here you do not have any financial investment into Thailand, do you have a emotional investment here? Are you married to a Thai? Your here working for some corporation on salary and do not have to do anything but your job. Your company shields you from the everyday normal dealings with the Thai Government so your not bothered with all the hands that stick out for donations during start ups and operation.

You have all your money offshore, that translates to me into a scenario where you have no faith in this country to invest any of your own money here. You rent a home, rent a car, and pay a driver to keep yourself from having to deal with police or the justice system in case of a accident. This is just more evidence that you have no faith in Thailand or the system. Maybe you and or your company have found a hole in the system you can exploit for financial gain but it does not sound like you are actually living here, just drifting through on a high tide.

Best of luck to you and your friends, I'm looking forward to my new adventures elsewhere. Truthfully it will be nice to deal with some stability instead of chaos.

[kiakaha]

Its my experience that any Expat that stays here long enough will lose out.

My prediction, based on 6 plus years of living here, get out now while the the getting is good.

only 6 years ? you're just a baby

what are you other thai related qualifications that lead you to this nihilistic point of view, because I have been working here more than twice your tenure and work with other foreigners who've been here 20, 30 years..and are all very much "winning" , so to speak.

What are you calling Winning? Ive had a pretty good adventure over here and always planned to go back to America in a few years. I was in a pretty serious business deal three days before the Airport got over ran with idiots which collapsed the deal and put it back to ground zero after a couple years work getting the people together. The same deal I can do in America in a week it takes two years to do here, is that winning? The paperwork nightmare over here is just ridiculous, try to do anything with honor and keep it legal and your in for a world of mental anguish.

If my goal in life was simple and I was happy to sit and drink beer every evening with a bunch of drunks and I was to stupid to understand how terrible the health care system is here life would be great. I have two places in America, and one house in Thailand. Both places in America have ultimate privacy and security, one offers helicopter flights for emergencies and the other one has first class emergency services with helicopters available if needed, all covered by insurance 100%.

My house in Thailand, a first class home in a exclusive gated community offers idiotic security guards who are to old to fight off a teenage school girl. They spend their days and nights riding bicycles around and drinking cheep whiskey. In case of Emergency a couple truckloads of baffoons will show up, more than likely get into a fight, throw you in the back of a truck and if they can, they will empty your pockets of money and your neck of gold if your silly enough to wear gold. Then half arsed doctors will take wild guesses about your condition and if you live it will be because you were going to live without the hospital anyway and your bill will end up with all kinds of charges for services and medications you never saw or received. The staff at the hospital, to simple to figure out basic paperwork will refuse to accept your insurance forcing you to go to their office in person and pay with cash or a credit card and then do all the paperwork to submit your own bill to insurance and wait a year to get your money refunded.

Dont bother with driving, not to mention the expense of a vehicle, its constantly being pulled over for no paticular reason and having hands go out for payments that becomes a bother. One of my favorite was when the cop reached for money and I stuck my hand out the window and shook his hand, said thanks, and drove off leaving him standing there. If you do have a accident, well, there's a 99% chance you will have to pay and your insurance will do everything they can to get out of doing anything. Having damage done to one of my trucks by teenagers who I caught and got their names and addresses the police offered me this advice, "We never go over there, its a bad neighborhood, the people are very bad there" but the funny thing was, its a beautiful place beside a nice lake but there is a 6 square block slum down a small ally that cannot be seen from where I parked under a beautiful shady tree.

Anyone who enjoys playing a game where the goals are constantly moved and the winner is always predetermined by his ability to influence with illegal payoffs, enjoy the ride. I have had a good run, had some great experiences and will spend the rest of my life looking back to my life in Thailand before the internet when I lived in some pretty wild and untouched by western culture areas. For me its just onto the next adventure as I have done everything I wanted to do here and its time to move on and take care of business. Because I'm leaving with more than I had when I arrived, maybe I'm a winner after all!

Back on topic, Trink said it best, "If you want leave Thailand with a little money, you should bring a lot when you come" or something along those lines. The absolute majority of Farang who fancy themselves as Thai usually end up getting a heck of a wake up call in the end if they don't end up dead from drink, stress, or violence. Personally I don't have anything good to say about what I believe will happen here over the next two years but there will most assuredly be bad times a coming and no Expats will be running for governor anytime soon. Just makes me wonder, how many Thai Americans are in office in the States? Certainly there are plenty of Thai Americans running successful businesses there.

By winning I mean setting goals for myself and my family and achieving them. However, not everyones situation is the same....I am not a business owner, as long as i've been here i've been shielded from a lot of crap by the company I'm deployed with . I find that being able to read thai(well enough to read the thai newspaper) and therefore speak correctly to a high level also makes a huge difference to "winning" (cultural adaptation), just my opinion. And I dont really drink or party at all, so that side of Thailand that can easily detract one from their goals is not a factor. By design, we keep all assets abroad and live a totally serviced/leased lifestyle in Thailand, so no ownership headaches on that front. Own a house in the west, could up and go in and instant if the $hit hit the fan. Regarding healthcare, I have never required emergency services, but for regular healthcare I've had no problems. I find a leased car & driver package solves all headaches on that front.

Point being, you can "win" in thailand..it is very much about how you adapt yourself, your situation and your ability to focus on achieving your goals.

So by your own statement here you do not have any financial investment into Thailand, do you have a emotional investment here? Are you married to a Thai?

no emotional investment, my wife was born,raised,schooled in New Zealand, just like me.

[Groongthep]

Is your middle name "knee jerk reaction" perhaps ?

How about this example then from the cornerstone of world democracy.......

An American citizen not born in USA territory(ie: a naturalized citizen) can not run for president. You must be a natural born citizen.

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

I hope you're not from America. In the USA if you want to be president, you have to have been a US citizen BY BIRTH. Legal immigrants who are citizens of the United States are not eligible for the job, only people born in the US.

These responses are simply stupid. The OP was referring to running for ANY government office in Thailand. The US Constitution requires that only the President be a US citizen by birth. The remaining thousands of other elected positions including members of the US Senate, the US House of Representatives, the Governors of all 50 states, Mayors of all cities, etc. etc. etc. can be foreign born citizens. The elected officials in the United States are far more ethnically diverse than most anywhere in the world.

[MiG16]

I think the OP's thread title is misleading.

integrating into a culture is not based on whether or not one can run for political office.

millions of natural or overseas born people that live in thailand are not involved in politics.

are we saying that as long as one cant run for public office, one can not interate?

I dont think that is logical.

now, as to the point about denial of basic human rights. here is my take on it: (by the way...you may also wish to read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and you will note that it talks about civic rights, but does not go into details about running for political office)

every country sets its own rules about the qualifications for eligibility to run for any office (just in the same way as any company would with regards to its employee). Of course it is somewhat influenced by international practice.

when talking about civic rights, it WOULD BE a denial of their civic right if the citizens (regardless of whether natural born or not) were not allowed to vote in the elections. the qualifications set down in the constitution are created/amended by elected representatives (well debatable since the 2006 Coup...but for simplicity of argument sake, lets assume we are talking normal circumstancecs)

so, when Thailand (or whateve country for that matter) get to the stage where there are enough overseas/immigrants who have become citizens who would like to see a change to the law that will allow them to run for political process, then they do have the votes to try to influence their elected representatives to make those changes.

remember that democracy is a process. it is not a static destination. things will always need to evolve based on the changing needs of the population

(but in the end...at the risk of oversimplifying the issue...it really boils down to demand and supply)

[sabaijai]

Never say never

That may be, but I have heard of farang becoming akin to mayors of small villages in Isaan (forget the Thai words for this). I guess it was not legal and official in every way, but in rare cases it happens.

You don't have to be born in Thailand to run for local office.

You don't have to be elected to Parliament to be 'integrated' into Thai society either. I feel more or less completely integrated here, after 30 years, and I'm not a Thai citizen either. YMMV

[SmugFarangBore]

I feel more or less completely integrated here, after 30 years, and I'm not a Thai citizen either. YMMV

I have no intention of integrating, even after 15 years here.

I don't want to become Thai.

I stay here, enjoy the country and its people but I am always reminded on a daily basis that I am, and will always be because of my race, an outsider.

[jdinasia]

hmmmm since when does being an MP equate to being integrated?

but SFB .. I think you meant "boor"

[Maizefarmer]

Bill Heinecke

..... and William Tilleke

end in tears? Explination please.

[Gary A]

There are lots of "dry smiles" of Thais towards foreigners or anyone who they feel is "beneath" them...

that might be true, but in my [not so] humble opinion only foreigners burdened with a bunch of inferiority complexes care about it.

And once again Naam offers a practical thought.

[Gravelrash]

When is it that you guys are going to realize that most of what you like about Thailand is simply a result of Thailand being cheap. Happiness in life is directly correlated to wealth and its dirt cheap here. Now these simple facts and the fact that farm girls will look in your direction gets projected in the silliest of notions, such as "I want to be a Thai citizen".... "I want to run for Thai government"....

You aren't Thai. And why would a Thai person even respect you when you have so little respect for your own country? Alpha males tend to dominate in their own environment. Lions don't tend to wander off out of the jungle and into the forest if you know what I mean.

So simply enjoy the pleasures that come with living in a dirt poor society where the wealth is horded by the select few and leave all the other egotistical insecurities out of it.

Hmm, I suppose that explains Schwarzenegger becoming governor of California. Who would even want to anyway? The fact that it is on the statutes is no surprise as it is typical of this society and its inherent racism, the actuality rather than the rose tinted glasses version.

[Birdman]

I feel more or less completely integrated here, after 30 years, and I'm not a Thai citizen either. YMMV

I have no intention of integrating, even after 15 years here.

I don't want to become Thai.

I stay here, enjoy the country and its people but I am always reminded on a daily basis that I am, and will always be because of my race, an outsider.

Being here 23 years. And I am still me. Not a Farang wanting to be Thai or completely integrated, nor a Farang feeling like an outsider either. I respect Thai culture in my way, knowing and therefore acknowledging the limitations.

You do not have to be integrated in Thai life 100 percent to have a good life for many years in Thailand, but you have to know how to handle that.

[coventry]

Why is it that farangs desperately try to intergrate here and make complete fools of themselves in doing so ? I'm talking of the 'Wai'. They just think that by 'Wai-ing' they've intergrated, not knowing that the Thais are laughing at them. They 'Wai' to children, they 'Wai' to younger people first etc etc. But the worst, for me, is when the farangs start 'Wai-ing each other. It has my missus in bits. I thought we farang shake hands or verbally introduce ourselves ?

[Birdman]

Why is it that farangs desperately try to intergrate here and make complete fools of themselves in doing so ? I'm talking of the 'Wai'. They just think that by 'Wai-ing' they've intergrated, not knowing that the Thais are laughing at them. They 'Wai' to children, they 'Wai' to younger people first etc etc. But the worst, for me, is when the farangs start 'Wai-ing each other. It has my missus in bits. I thought we farang shake hands or verbally introduce ourselves ?

...you are completely wrong.

Tourists on a 2 week holiday are doing that without deeper knowledge of the Wai, just showing feeling good about their holidays in Thailand

or

some expats joking. Nobody tries desperately to integrate here with the Wais...

[Joints]

I am no longer optimistic about this country or its future.

You are hiding it really well! Your post made me laugh out loud.

[kiakaha]

Regarding integration , some of the attributes of integration that are essential in my mind don't require laws or social xenophobics to overcome, the ball is completely 100% in your court...mastery of the language comes to mind, and mean being able to read and write to a high standard(read the thai newspaper, read the thai instructions at the post office and bank counter etc...)...i guess i'm basing my point of view on seeing how asian's have integrated into my home country and learned how to read and write the language to a high standard.

[HorseDoctor]

Its my experience that any Expat that stays here long enough will lose out.

My prediction, based on 6 plus years of living here, get out now while the the getting is good.

only 6 years ? you're just a baby

what are you other thai related qualifications that lead you to this nihilistic point of view, because I have been working here more than twice your tenure and work with other foreigners who've been here 20, 30 years..and are all very much "winning" , so to speak.

What are you calling Winning? Ive had a pretty good adventure over here and always planned to go back to America in a few years. I was in a pretty serious business deal three days before the Airport got over ran with idiots which collapsed the deal and put it back to ground zero after a couple years work getting the people together. The same deal I can do in America in a week it takes two years to do here, is that winning? The paperwork nightmare over here is just ridiculous, try to do anything with honor and keep it legal and your in for a world of mental anguish.

If my goal in life was simple and I was happy to sit and drink beer every evening with a bunch of drunks and I was to stupid to understand how terrible the health care system is here life would be great. I have two places in America, and one house in Thailand. Both places in America have ultimate privacy and security, one offers helicopter flights for emergencies and the other one has first class emergency services with helicopters available if needed, all covered by insurance 100%.

My house in Thailand, a first class home in a exclusive gated community offers idiotic security guards who are to old to fight off a teenage school girl. They spend their days and nights riding bicycles around and drinking cheep whiskey. In case of Emergency a couple truckloads of baffoons will show up, more than likely get into a fight, throw you in the back of a truck and if they can, they will empty your pockets of money and your neck of gold if your silly enough to wear gold. Then half arsed doctors will take wild guesses about your condition and if you live it will be because you were going to live without the hospital anyway and your bill will end up with all kinds of charges for services and medications you never saw or received. The staff at the hospital, to simple to figure out basic paperwork will refuse to accept your insurance forcing you to go to their office in person and pay with cash or a credit card and then do all the paperwork to submit your own bill to insurance and wait a year to get your money refunded.

Dont bother with driving, not to mention the expense of a vehicle, its constantly being pulled over for no paticular reason and having hands go out for payments that becomes a bother. One of my favorite was when the cop reached for money and I stuck my hand out the window and shook his hand, said thanks, and drove off leaving him standing there. If you do have a accident, well, there's a 99% chance you will have to pay and your insurance will do everything they can to get out of doing anything. Having damage done to one of my trucks by teenagers who I caught and got their names and addresses the police offered me this advice, "We never go over there, its a bad neighborhood, the people are very bad there" but the funny thing was, its a beautiful place beside a nice lake but there is a 6 square block slum down a small ally that cannot be seen from where I parked under a beautiful shady tree.

Anyone who enjoys playing a game where the goals are constantly moved and the winner is always predetermined by his ability to influence with illegal payoffs, enjoy the ride. I have had a good run, had some great experiences and will spend the rest of my life looking back to my life in Thailand before the internet when I lived in some pretty wild and untouched by western culture areas. For me its just onto the next adventure as I have done everything I wanted to do here and its time to move on and take care of business. Because I'm leaving with more than I had when I arrived, maybe I'm a winner after all!

Back on topic, Trink said it best, "If you want leave Thailand with a little money, you should bring a lot when you come" or something along those lines. The absolute majority of Farang who fancy themselves as Thai usually end up getting a heck of a wake up call in the end if they don't end up dead from drink, stress, or violence. Personally I don't have anything good to say about what I believe will happen here over the next two years but there will most assuredly be bad times a coming and no Expats will be running for governor anytime soon. Just makes me wonder, how many Thai Americans are in office in the States? Certainly there are plenty of Thai Americans running successful businesses there.

Oh my God, I think I love you !

[Heng]

You aren't Thai. And why would a Thai person even respect you when you have so little respect for your own country? Alpha males tend to dominate in their own environment. Lions don't tend to wander off out of the jungle and into the forest if you know what I mean.

Alpha male humans tent to prosper in whatever environment they live in, pass through, or relocate to as in the cases of the aforementioned Bill, or Jim Thompson, or Adoph Link, etc.

There are always exceptions to the rule, and those exceptions tend to be the most alpha of alphas, but as a general rule, those who are born in a first world country and end up in a second world country are more likely to not be alpha males. living in a place where you are in general at a social disadvantage, suggests that you are weak, anti social, and undependable. Even marrying a women from another culture expresses a sort of weakness which I am sure you understand.

I think it all depends on one's point of view. Others might view it as ability to adapt, overcome, and in many cases conquer (all alpha traits) in non familiar environments. As for who they marry, alphas can pretty much marry whoever they want... and often still not be bound by societal 'norms' of marriage. I do agree that many farangs who marry 2nd hand (and often 3rd, 4th, etc.) locals and raise children of said locals from former marriages/unions aren't exhibiting alpha type behaviour by any means... but that's not to say that the fathers of said children who often are dead or working dead end jobs as factory workers or deck hands elsewhere are alphas either.

My point was essentially that I see many farang who seem to attempt to win the respect of Thais by becoming Thai which in their minds is wearing a jetucram, color coordinating their wardrobe based on the day or week, praising everything Thai, defending Thai style democracy, wanting to be a Thai citizen and run for government, etc.

I think alphas can do whatever it takes to get ahead. It's no different from captains of industry who pretend to have concerns about global warming, religion/spirituality, or human rights. It doesn't mean they are trying to earn anyone's respect... it often is just another path to getting and staying ahead.

I could certainly be wrong, but i think in general, Thai people just laugh behind their backs and look at them as comedy relief. sort of the way farang mistake katoeys as being accepted in Thai society, as opposed to just being a novelty/form of comedy relief.

I don't think there are any black and white rules on that one. Sure, many get laughed at, but I think many foreigners (and farangs) are indeed fairly well integrated. Plenty of locals DO accept katoeys and gays, while many no doubt look at them as comedy relief or just something to be tolerated.

people wont like this, but if you want a Thai to respect you, drive a nicer car than they do.

Again, that wouldn't necessarily earn any respect whatsoever... but surely it will from some folks. It's all relative.

[Heng]

Thailand; age: at least 25 years old - Thai citizenship by birth

The current Prime Minister of Thailand was born in England.

Thais have citizenship by birth no matter where they are born.

There's also no generational limit. For instance, there are Thais who have lived for 3+ generations outside Thailand... for example nearly the entire extended family of the current governor of BKK, but as long as each new family member gets a birth certificate at the local Thai consulate, they can get an ID card and citizenship in about 30 minutes at any district office in the country just like everyone else. This is unlike say the US for example, where if you live outside of the US and have children... they are automatically citizens once their birth is reported... BUT their children aren't Americans unless they are born in the US or move to the US and spend something like 5+ years there after age 15.

[kiakaha]

Kind of on topic, but, Tiger Woods, although he could get citizenship via his mother, but never did, was also offered honorary citizenship at a royal level, but declined...can anyone confirm or deny this ?

[Heng]

Kind of on topic, but, Tiger Woods, although he could get citizenship via his mother, but never did, was also offered honorary citizenship at a royal level, but declined...can anyone confirm or deny this ?

Supposedly offered by the PM... none other than Thaksin himself. What he declined was an invitation to a royal audience with his reasons being that he had work/endorsement contract obliglations. Totally understandable, but less so to a lot of local folks.

It was a non-issue since he is eligible for Thai citizenship anyway through his mother.

As to the reasons why his mother distances herself from Thailand, what the people who claim to be her relatives say about her, why Earl Woods never went into detail over how they met (other than... "it was during the Vietnam War"), hence a reason for Tiger (out of respect to his mother) to also distance himself from the country, it's mostly hearsay of whether 2 + 2 is really 4 or not... and that it would be disrespectful to one of the greatest athletes in history to go into such detail. In the west, it doesn't matter who your parents are, but here, any of 3 generations living at the same time are often considered the same entity in many respects.

[mogoso]

I can't wait for someone to justify the Thai position, keeping in mind that if their home country tried to do that, there would be a human rights case before the homeland national courts.

[/color][/color]

I hope you're not from America. In the USA if you want to be president, you have to have been a US citizen BY BIRTH. Legal immigrants who are citizens of the United States are not eligible for the job, only people born in the US.

So that leaves out two political positions, counting the vice pres. You can be in congress, or be a govenor such as Arnold in Calif. Not such an imposition. All bills start in congress, not the executive branch, so you can voice your opinions and start the law making process there if you wanna make something happen.

[Metalgear]

Thailand is one of the better places to live if you have money. The real rich frequent more sophisticated places/areas although you do find one or two in the bars :-) on SC.

Thailand is however mostly a 3rd world country, where basic human rights do not exist, justice depends on money/social status, free and fair elections do not exist, corruption is endemic at all levels in society, etc, etc.

So why would anyone in his right mind want a Thai passport or get involved in all the very dirty politics here? Just doing business here and living a very comfortable lifestyle is all I need from Thailand while keeping my EU passport!

I can't care less that some Thais don't like me, I know many who do.

Good luck

Thats right. Why care so much ? We just enjoy ourselves and don't care what Thai people think. They have alot of flaws which makes me feel sorry for them. All this thing about money and social status doesn't really bother me, just as long as I am not poor as a beggar and have the freedom to choose is good enough for me. I can always get out anytime I want, no body is forcing me to stay in Thailand. There always other places, the choice is always up to me.