Why A Non Thai Can Never Integrate In Thailand

[wayfarer108]

Regarding integration , some of the attributes of integration that are essential in my mind don't require laws or social xenophobics to overcome, the ball is completely 100% in your court...mastery of the language comes to mind, and mean being able to read and write to a high standard(read the thai newspaper, read the thai instructions at the post office and bank counter etc...)...i guess i'm basing my point of view on seeing how asian's have integrated into my home country and learned how to read and write the language to a high standard.

Precisely. Usually the westerners whining about how it's impossible to integrate into Thai society haven't mastered the language. I know plenty of foreigners here of all nationalities, eg, Japanese, Indian, Australian, British, French, who have learned to read, write and speak the language and have integrated quite well. Some are Thai citizens, others hold permanent residency or long-term work visas.

Other naysayers may have learned the language but haven't been able to adjust to the cultural norms. These are the ones making comments like 'why should I wai, why should I act in any other way except as a farang,' or 'Thailand is a nation of children,' etc. Folks with attitudes like that will never integrate and will never accept that other westerners have. These misanthropes probably don't fit into their own societies much better.

Edited February 8, 2009 by wayfarer108

[jdinasia]

I can't wait for someone to justify the Thai position, keeping in mind that if their home country tried to do that, there would be a human rights case before the homeland national courts.

[/color][/color]

I hope you're not from America. In the USA if you want to be president, you have to have been a US citizen BY BIRTH. Legal immigrants who are citizens of the United States are not eligible for the job, only people born in the US.

So that leaves out two political positions, counting the vice pres. You can be in congress, or be a govenor such as Arnold in Calif. Not such an imposition. All bills start in congress, not the executive branch, so you can voice your opinions and start the law making process there if you wanna make something happen.

Don't sweat the little stuff .... but you do not have to be "born in the US" to be Prez

I concur with wayfarer on most points ... many of us have integrated well. It doesn't mean we are THAI or even want to be .. it isn't needed to integrate (and the whole you can't be an MP to integrate is just downright silly).

[thaihome]

Did anybody else notice in that over half the countries the OP used for comparing the right to be an elected official are communist countries where the elections are meaningless anyway?

TH

[Arkady]

These restrictions on non-native Thais running for public were put in various forms into constitutions of the past to prevent the horror of Chinese immigrants from using money to gain public office and tell the elite Thais what to do. Now that they have taken over the country anyway the constitution drafters, who are mainly Chinese themselves these days, still seem to feel the need to retain these discriminatory clauses to prevent other new Thai citizens running for public office, despite the fact that there are so few of them.

I believe the 1997 constitution still prevented naturalized Thais from voting for their first 10 years as citizens which was quite bizarre. I think the 2005 constitution must have the same clause as it didn't liberalize anything at all.

The constitution before the 1997 one was even stricter on non-native Thais running for public office. It prevented native Thais born to non-Thai fathers from running for public office i.e. those born before 1972 who were entitled to Thai nationality by birth irrespective of parents' nationality. There was a big hoohaa when Banharn was PM and the opposition tried to prove that his immigrant Chinese father had never been naturalized which was probably the case but he managed to cover it all up successfully, if it was.

[kiakaha]

Regarding integration , some of the attributes of integration that are essential in my mind don't require laws or social xenophobics to overcome, the ball is completely 100% in your court...mastery of the language comes to mind, and mean being able to read and write to a high standard(read the thai newspaper, read the thai instructions at the post office and bank counter etc...)...i guess i'm basing my point of view on seeing how asian's have integrated into my home country and learned how to read and write the language to a high standard.

Precisely. Usually the westerners whining about how it's impossible to integrate into Thai society haven't mastered the language. I know plenty of foreigners here of all nationalities, eg, Japanese, Indian, Australian, British, French, who have learned to read, write and speak the language and have integrated quite well. Some are Thai citizens, others hold permanent residency or long-term work visas.

Other naysayers may have learned the language but haven't been able to adjust to the cultural norms. These are the ones making comments like 'why should I wai, why should I act in any other way except as a farang,' or 'Thailand is a nation of children,' etc. Folks with attitudes like that will never integrate and will never accept that other westerners have. These misanthropes probably don't fit into their own societies much better.

It makes such a huge difference, I couldn't imagine living here without being able to read and speak thai well. It just opens up so much more of the country to you.

[kiakaha]

Kind of on topic, but, Tiger Woods, although he could get citizenship via his mother, but never did, was also offered honorary citizenship at a royal level, but declined...can anyone confirm or deny this ?

As to the reasons why his mother distances herself from Thailand,

Isn't Los Angeles Thai Town the 76th province of Thailand

[Mai Krap]

Kind of on topic, but, Tiger Woods, although he could get citizenship via his mother, but never did, was also offered honorary citizenship at a royal level, but declined...can anyone confirm or deny this ?

Tiger is the ultimate poster boy for all that is wrong with Thailand. He is Thai with a Thai mom from Udon Thani. He made a name for himself by hard work and discipline. He was interested in his roots and came to Thailand after he was rich and famous. The Thai Golf Association, The Government, The Police, and every other organization that could get anywhere near him showed up begging for hand outs. From what I understand his trip here was pure hel_l, he has never tried to come back after 2000, never has any plans to ever come back and for that matter I have not even heard him mention Thailand since he was here the last time years ago.

Its a pretty sad state of affairs but Tiger did not do anything wrong. I'm sure there is more to this story but he is to smart to let on about it. One thing is for sure, he learned quickly all about Thailand. I would like to of heard what his mom had to tell him about the place, that would be a interesting story for sure.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/200...iger.woods.html

Woods' first trip to Thailand as a professional in early 1997 was a three-ring circus. Politicians and TV crews boarded his plane when it touched down in Bangkok before he could unbuckle his seat belt. Woods would describe it as the craziest week of his life; he was hoping things would be a little saner this time around. "I always enjoy coming back to Thailand," he says. "It's always neat to be back among family and friends." Not everyone was so enthusiastic, however. Some Thais feel he should donate more of his wealth to their country; others resent the fact that he lends his name to companies that, in their view, exploit millions of low-skilled local workers. "He basically has forgotten the Thai people," says Prasong Pathom, a medical doctor who followed Woods around during day one of last week's tournament. "He is a great golfer and has done some good with his foundation in getting equipment for young kids, but a number of Thais see it as nothing more than a token gesture."

[kiakaha]

Kind of on topic, but, Tiger Woods, although he could get citizenship via his mother, but never did, was also offered honorary citizenship at a royal level, but declined...can anyone confirm or deny this ?

Tiger is the ultimate poster boy for all that is wrong with Thailand. He is Thai with a Thai mom from Udon Thani. He made a name for himself by hard work and discipline. He was interested in his roots and came to Thailand after he was rich and famous. The Thai Golf Association, The Government, The Police, and every other organization that could get anywhere near him showed up begging for hand outs. From what I understand his trip here was pure hel_l, he has never tried to come back after 2000, never has any plans to ever come back and for that matter I have not even heard him mention Thailand since he was here the last time years ago.

Its a pretty sad state of affairs but Tiger did not do anything wrong. I'm sure there is more to this story but he is to smart to let on about it. One thing is for sure, he learned quickly all about Thailand. I would like to of heard what his mom had to tell him about the place, that would be a interesting story for sure.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/200...iger.woods.html

Woods' first trip to Thailand as a professional in early 1997 was a three-ring circus. Politicians and TV crews boarded his plane when it touched down in Bangkok before he could unbuckle his seat belt. Woods would describe it as the craziest week of his life; he was hoping things would be a little saner this time around. "I always enjoy coming back to Thailand," he says. "It's always neat to be back among family and friends." Not everyone was so enthusiastic, however. Some Thais feel he should donate more of his wealth to their country; others resent the fact that he lends his name to companies that, in their view, exploit millions of low-skilled local workers. "He basically has forgotten the Thai people," says Prasong Pathom, a medical doctor who followed Woods around during day one of last week's tournament. "He is a great golfer and has done some good with his foundation in getting equipment for young kids, but a number of Thais see it as nothing more than a token gesture."

I also read somewhere that he was given a thai nickname as a child , ต้น , but his mom probably stopped using it when he was 3, about the time when his parents dropped thai language from his upbringing because it was causing him to stutter with his english speech

[coventry]

And HRH was born in Boston Mass.

Shouldn't that be Cambridge, Mass ? Just a small point in case you get into trouble.

[turbotojo]

I love Thailand the way it is. So very difference from the rat race in the West I managed to escape from.

Would hate to see too many Western influences here that could destroy Thai culture and unique way of life.

Too many undesirable Farangs here already, pray be that they never put any in charge.

Life in a rubbish tip suffering from blissful and obnoxious ignorance and stupidity. That is the unique Thai culture.

Don't get me wrong, I do like Thailand but it sh%ts me sometimes. My wife discarded her Thai passport and ID card never to be reapplied for. She is just not interested in living there. Maybe she wizened up to the true facts about Thailand. (although we have a house there and take long holidays)

Isn't the king of Thailand supposed to be the worlds richest royal? Like someone else said, all that counts there is money and social standing. To me it means sh%t, merit is worth more. You basically have to earn the right to do whatever not pay for it! I think I'm loosing the plot now so I had better stop

[Junglejumbo]

I remember former PM banharn silpa-archa in 1996 having a problem because his father was reputed to not have a Thai birth certificate (apparently migrated here when he was a baby), so perhaps here not only must you have been born here but also your parents?

I don't think there are many examples of ex-foreigners leading another country. The only one that comes to mind is the Japanese guy who led Peru for a few years but didn't he then flee the country with millions of dollars and went into hiding in Japan? Perhaps the Afhan president was born elsewhere--I know he was a former director of UNOCAL, and quickly gave away pipeline rights to the US company when he got the top job.

Marilyn Albright was secretary of state in the US after being born in Chez....

Israel has probably had at least a couple of PMs born in the US.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be PM in Thailand what with the compromises who'd have to make with the army, privy council, opposition MPs, grass root leaders, state enterprises, and the police. Nobody's going to be a winner for many yrs to come.

[thaibkk]

so i guess as many incompresenisble thai things:

better be thai, poor, poorly educated , a bit racist as most of them are

in stead of a

well educated, wealthy farang...

to do about anything in this country...

right to buy land / a house : no

farang married to thai needs 40k per month family income for visq

poor thai with farang wife needs only 10k

and so on...

LAND OF LEGAL discrimination

[dave9988]

When people talk of 'integration', I believe that what they are really getting at is respect. To not be looked at as a farang, but as a brother, a human being, or whatever Western hand holding catch phrase you want to use. A Thai person can go to America and say "Now I am an American. Thumbs Up! Wo-Wo!" and everyone in America supports that. In Thailand, well, it does not seem to fly that way. Reading this forum, posters are still getting called farang by their father-in-laws .

[coventry]

It's would be nice to intergate. If only the Immigration Office treat us as intergrated. It really brings it home that they will never give us equal rights. So what's the point of intergrating ? Someone said previously that Asians go to his country and intergrate. Well that's fine if the laws allow them equality, but here in Thailand, the laws are stacked against the farang. If Thais want us to intergrate then give us equality.

Edited February 8, 2009 by coventry

[puipuitom]

I was reading my RSS and was surprised to see a story coming out of Taiwan

TAIPEI (Reuters) – An American-born caucasian is running for Taiwan's parliament next month, a first for the island, to fill a seat. Robin Winkler, a Taipei-based lawyer, environmental activist and Taiwan citizen since 2003, would be the first caucasian to run for parliament in Taiwan,

[/color][/color]

So ?

Every person, who lives longer as 3 years in Netherlands, has voting rights for all municipality elections.

After 5 years, or even 3 years if your partner is Dutch, every person can apply for Dutch citizenship. As soon as you have, you have full voting rights AND the right to be voted. Out of 12,4 mln Dutch citizens 1,2 mln are of European origin, 1,1 mln are on non - EUR background. In NL we have one depity minister from Turkey, one from Marocco, the mayor of our port city: Rotterdam, is Maroccan, and 12 out of 150 members of Parliament are from non-European origin.

How many non-Thais have voting rights in TH ?

[kiakaha]

Someone said previously that Asians go to his country and intergrate. Well that's fine if the laws allow them equality, but here in Thailand, the laws are stacked against the farang. If Thais want us to intergrate then give us equality.

I was making an example of mastering the language(reading/writing/speaking)...an area of integration ENTIRELY controlled by you(not by other peoples laws/regulations), and as far as I am concerned, the one you should put the most energy into.

Whats the point of trying to be an integrated part of society if you can't even read(and therefore speak/pronounce correctly) the most trivial words a 4 year old would know like หมา , สวัสดี , ผู้ใหญ่ etc....

People seem to like winging/moaning/crying for victim support about the cards that are stacked against them, when instead they could be doing something productive and proactive right now ie: learn to read a few more consonants and vowels, learn 5 more nouns and verbs every day..its surprising what can manifest after a year of this And trust me, when you're walking down the street and reading all the signs, reading the notices in the post office and bank, reading the thai menus on the street hawkers carts, heck even reading the subtitles at the movies...you WILL feel more integrated.

[PeaceBlondie]

Every country and culture, at least historically, has had exclusionary words and rules against outsiders. Many of our own countries still treat immigrants (at least the illegal ones) as inferior. Most of us had great grandparents who were racist in some fashion, when it was fashionable to talk of Jews, Bohemians, Irish, Africans, etc. in very derogatory style.

I chose to migrate to Thailand, and choose to remain. I choose to be a foreigner, however that is pronounced. I choose not to learn the language (because I am an idiot at it). I have no intention of running for congress or attaining citizenship. If I were younger and willing, I would get PR, citizenship, language fluency, etc. But I would still be foreign born and naturalized. Mai bpen rai.

[Heng]

It's would be nice to intergate. If only the Immigration Office treat us as intergrated. It really brings it home that they will never give us equal rights. So what's the point of intergrating ? Someone said previously that Asians go to his country and intergrate. Well that's fine if the laws allow them equality, but here in Thailand, the laws are stacked against the farang. If Thais want us to intergrate then give us equality.

Historically the slaves that keep "asking" for freedom never get it. You have to earn, fight, claw your way to get it.

[ClaytonSeymour]

I was making an example of mastering the language(reading/writing/speaking)...an area of integration ENTIRELY controlled by you(not by other peoples laws/regulations), and as far as I am concerned, the one you should put the most energy into.

Whats the point of trying to be an integrated part of society if you can't even read(and therefore speak/pronounce correctly) the most trivial words a 4 year old would know like หมา , สวัสดี , ผู้ใหญ่ etc....

People seem to like winging/moaning/crying for victim support about the cards that are stacked against them, when instead they could be doing something productive and proactive right now ie: learn to read a few more consonants and vowels, learn 5 more nouns and verbs every day..its surprising what can manifest after a year of this And trust me, when you're walking down the street and reading all the signs, reading the notices in the post office and bank, reading the thai menus on the street hawkers carts, heck even reading the subtitles at the movies...you WILL feel more integrated.

Perhaps people would be more willing to become integrated if it brought about tangible benefits i.e. own land.

[Khom77]

Responding to the OP: I too am very upset by this exclusionary law. For as long as I can remember, it has been my dream to be a Thai Member of Parliament.

I've been planning and preparing for years. I've carefully studied the actions of the "masters" - Banharn Silpa-archa, Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, Chalerm Yoobamrung, etc - and try to learn from their occasional mistakes.

I also practice. I make long, rambling speeches about local development. Occasionally my cats get bored and walk away, which helps me prepare for audience reaction at your typical Thai campaign rally.

I regularly make trips to impoverished upcountry provinces where I pass out crisp 500 baht notes to villagers. Some people might think this is a little strange, but the locals seem happy.

I have a whole closet full of pra ratchatan shirts for every day of the week, as well as oversized dark sunglasses. I practice the "low wai" and the "side wai" in front of the mirror almost daily.

I am trying to travel only in convoys. Admittedly I have only organized this so far with the motorcycle taxi guys in my soi. They refer to me affectionately as "farang ba", which I think means "father farang". It's a good feeling.

You see, all in all, I'm set and ready to go, if it weren't for this racist law holding me back!

[jdinasia]

Quite a nice post for a newcomer !

[geeky]

what's the problem?

it makes sense ... in fact, I wish they would have this law in my home country!!

even more so; I wouldn't have left my home country if they wouldn't accuse you for being a racist if you're proud of your country ...

on top of that; this whole PC mentality which has resulted in total lawlessness on part of the immigrants is why the country is about to implode

[geeky]

Every country and culture, at least historically, has had exclusionary words and rules against outsiders. Many of our own countries still treat immigrants (at least the illegal ones) as inferior. Most of us had great grandparents who were racist in some fashion, when it was fashionable to talk of Jews, Bohemians, Irish, Africans, etc. in very derogatory style.

I chose to migrate to Thailand, and choose to remain. I choose to be a foreigner, however that is pronounced. I choose not to learn the language (because I am an idiot at it). I have no intention of running for congress or attaining citizenship. If I were younger and willing, I would get PR, citizenship, language fluency, etc. But I would still be foreign born and naturalized. Mai bpen rai.

still? as if not-treating illegal immigrants (people who have no respect for you and/or you country) are not-inferior?

what is it these days that nobody seems to have any respect for something crucial as :: duties, law etc.

all of that seems to be forgotten ... you have no rights, as long you don't forfil your duties

the reason why so many people look down on immigrants is not because they're racist, but because these immigrants come from inferior backgrounds

we're not created equal!

stop raping the truth! please?

[sabaijai]

Someone said previously that Asians go to his country and intergrate. Well that's fine if the laws allow them equality, but here in Thailand, the laws are stacked against the farang. If Thais want us to intergrate then give us equality.

I was making an example of mastering the language(reading/writing/speaking)...an area of integration ENTIRELY controlled by you(not by other peoples laws/regulations), and as far as I am concerned, the one you should put the most energy into.

Whats the point of trying to be an integrated part of society if you can't even read(and therefore speak/pronounce correctly) the most trivial words a 4 year old would know like หมา , สวัสดี , ผู้ใหญ่ etc....

People seem to like winging/moaning/crying for victim support about the cards that are stacked against them, when instead they could be doing something productive and proactive right now ie: learn to read a few more consonants and vowels, learn 5 more nouns and verbs every day..its surprising what can manifest after a year of this And trust me, when you're walking down the street and reading all the signs, reading the notices in the post office and bank, reading the thai menus on the street hawkers carts, heck even reading the subtitles at the movies...you WILL feel more integrated.

[sabaijai]

And HRH was born in Boston Mass.

Shouldn't that be Cambridge, Mass ? Just a small point in case you get into trouble.

The honourific was incorrect, too. Should be HM not HRM

[Socratis]

I believe this lovely "tradition" comes from the legacy of slavery that still exists in many ways...

A hierarchical society makes an egalitarian society impossible...

---------------------------------------

I'm a Thai and I certainly disagree witht he law or the constitution.

No, I don't think the tradition comes from the leagacy of slavery! IMHO, the tradition comes from the legacy of the military power which has a long history of great influence on Thai politics. In the past 60 years or so the Thai military has made membership of the Thai armed forces belong exclusively to Thai-born citizens. They have sucessfully extended this requirement to people holding other public offices in the name of national security. This is understandable since it would protect the army's interest as they would have much less competition if they want to get into public offices. As you may already know, the military, especially the army, once had almost exclusive control of radio and TV stations in the country in the name of national security. This of course has brought the armed forces vast amount of money until today.

Thai military power is waning though. And I hope that this could change soon.

[jackr]

I love Thailand the way it is. So very difference from the rat race in the West I managed to escape from.

Would hate to see too many Western influences here that could destroy Thai culture and unique way of life.

Too many undesirable Farangs here already, pray be that they never put any in charge.

Thai military power is waning though. And I hope that this could change soon.

Good. Do not rellish the thought of a Muang Thaianmar