'Ruling out the foreigner'

[KenUdon]

DaveYo.

On the question of getting money out of the country, I did contact HSBC, which being a UK based bank I had high hopes of being able to open an account here, and withdraw the money in Uk, but they told me that there systems are NOT linked by computer or in any other way (unbelievable) and that I could not withdraw money in the Uk. They told me that I would have major problems trying to send any money home at all, unless I could prove that I brought the money into Thailand from outside. It did come from outside the country, because I brought it in in travellers checks when I first came here, but of course now, there is no proof of that. I have my own plans to deal with the situation which will prove expensive, risky, and not ideal, but better than leave it here for those b......ds to have.

As to the permanent residency here, in all seriousness, DO NOT hold your breath, and certainly do not make any plans based on the assumption that you will get it. In all likelihood, it WILL NOT HAPPEN. It is incredibly difficult to get permanent residency now, with only a very limited number of these being granted every year, regardless of your visa history. Goodness knows how much more difficult it will be in the future, and is something that definately can not be relied upon. Best of luck to us all. We are going to need it.

[kb]

I think the current correct political term is SOFT TARGET.

hitting foreigners with outrageous fees and taxes. And worst of all being more accountable than the massage parlour owners and the mafia

As i cant see myself raising this kind of money (would i want to)  i now have to face the prospect of putting my young lady back on the street after 2.5 years - as i simply dont have this kind of money for new business.

does the thai government have a retraining program for street girls

Any ideas  - SHOULD I TELL HER NOW or mai pen rai it?

so bring on the 3mil business plan and the 1 mil smart card and then count the social consequences later

[Galong]

Hi everyone,

In the "Others" section of the "Foreign Businessmen" category, does anyone have any idea what is meant by, "In case of a tour business the foreigner must show his ability to attract over 1,500 tourists each year from the government section or Thai Tourism Association or passenger lists and hotel reservations"?

Being part of a small eco-tourism busiess, we try NOT to promote mass tourism.  Our clients spend the equivalent of several mass tourism guests.  I wonder if this will fall into a grey area.

I certainly don't qualify to stay under the enormous amounts of money I'm supposed to have... yikes!  But then again, it seems like they are talknig mostly about getting a one-year visa.  I've been here over ten years and up until recently, I've only gone out for multiple entry visas.  I've had two one-year visas.  If I have to go back to getting multiple or single entry visas, it beats loosing my family and dream job.  All comment welcomed.

Thanks

[DaveYo]

Oh KB, I do sympathize with your problem and feel for you too.  Ah, but like I said before it is time now for all of us to re-consider our stays in Thailand.  We all have a major major problem.  Our incomes, our businesses if we own any there, Our families, any property we have there, and especially our MONEY.

If this becomes law by HRH, we are all but DEAD.

I have to set my sights someplace else, because I fear that this new law will become a reality.  There is no way I am going to put my money in any Thailand Bank now.  I will keep it in a Foreigner Bank so that I can take it any time.

So if Immigrations want to check my account, it is in the Foreigners bank account still in Thailand, but at least these buzzards won't take it away from me

 

  :blues:

[ahddub]

Once the precedence is established the minimum balances and income levels can (and will?) be ratcheted up - can you hear the sucking noise?  Might the prognosis be "thank you very much, now go home"?

How can we get this issue covered (reported, editorialized) in the media, both English (Nation, Post) and Thai?  Any contact info where I can send a 'Letter from Readers'?  Specifically, vis a vis the cessation of our flow of personal funds as well as direct investment into the country.  Working expats (an issue for expat clubs?) might raise this issue with their foreign employers if there are direct investments in the pipeline.

Any feedback from Stick, Trink, other boards?

I read a recent article in the Nation that Thailand was expecting multi-billion dollar direct investment from the U.S. this year.  I think I'll drop a note to my congressman asking if this is prudent in light of Thailand's new isolationism.

Thaksin did a great job with free trade with China.  Isn't he also addressing the western countries?  This is bad policy in the face of Globalization.

???

[DaveYo]

Galong, you have been there 10 years.  Actually you need not have to worry too much.  You are under a different class, and under the grandfathers clauses which pretty much keeps you safe under the financial requirements.  You only need to show 20,000 baht a month and of savings of not less than 200,000 and have minimum 3 months record showing it.  If you are married, it is even less the requirements, and peachy, as long as you can show your marriage is legit and registered.  Other clauses might apply that can favor you.   However as to if you have a family etc, I am not sure if this new law applies in your case.  Also if you have a business you will fall under the new rules, and the requirements is astronomical.  So why not be a journalist, at least it is the easy part?  Only requires 20,000 baht monthly salary, just to stay happy.

Keep in mind this applies to those having VISAS.  For permanent residency it is entirely different, and yes - yikes just to get it is astronomical.

Curiously, do you have your permanent residency yet?  If not heck get it if you can, and see if you can apply the old clauses to your case to avoid the astronomical fees.  It can save you major headaches later.  And from what i understand it is also hard to do too.

Sigh ???   :blues:

[DaveYo]

Hey good point here.  YES, YES, YES,   we all should band together and write to OUR GOVERNMENTS and voice our complaints, and perhaps especially those in USA, write to our congressman and complain of this especially.  If thailand is wanting some USA money, then at least the Congress can impose some restrictions to protect their citizens from  getting the guillotine.

How that will work out?   To complain to the Thailand Government will fall on deaf ears.  I can guarantee you that much.  Don't waste your time.

 :blues:

[frankw]

Of course, everything discussed here is about rumors and still unconfirmed. On the other hand I wonder why all these weird plans are not mentioned at all in the Bangkok Post (BP)? IMHO the BP is having a lot of stories about rumors and unconfirmed intentional law changes. But still nothing about the planned new laws. I understand that BP is a Thai newspaper, which doesn’t serve long staying foreigners, but an article about planned laws, which are similar to regulations seen in communist or dictator style run countries should be worth to be mentioned.

The only way to stop this madness is publicity. I am pretty sure that a bad (international) press and public opinion would have an influence. Instead the building boom of residencies for foreigners in tourist areas is still going on. I also noticed that in and around Hua Hin more and more properties and businesses are for sale. Are there a few “informed” parties trying to leave the sinking ship?

Of course every investor or future house owner is still assured that all papers and permits can be arranged 100 % guaranteed. If everybody would know about the plans, nobody would invest and a lot of people could take their money into a safe country. By doing so the target (money) would perhaps be lost before the new laws would come into power.

But maybe everybody tries to safe his own skin first before informing others. This is life and I can say that because my funds are safe in my home country. My reason for doing so was the strong believe that there will be another crisis soon. Looks like this will become true but for a different reason than expected.

[GlenTuk]

umm, Sorry for sounding stupid, But for the sake of clarity are these new rules for Employer's only ? Or will it apply to Employees also IE a Teacher employed on a wage of 25,000 baht a month would not meet the new immigration requirements correct ???    ???    After returning from LOS just yesterday after visiting the in-laws with Khun wifey we had a plan ... but if my above thoughts are correct then those plans have been shafted.    ???

[DaveYo]

Frankw,    I hear Ya.  Guess what, it won't be too long before the word hits the streets to those trying to buy up properties or establishing businesses as you mentioned.  They will simply stop and then take a look at whats about to happen, and I believe they will hustle and bustle and quickly sell what they have and get the h*ll out of there.

Not to mention if they brought money into Thailand, they will get that money out of there pronto to save their lives, or they will LOSE IT to PM and company.

???  :blues:

[KenUdon]

Dr PP. You have gone very quiet. Surely you have something to say on this subject?

[DaveYo]

Glen, I am not sure how long you have stayed in Thailand.  But if you just started since November 2001, TRUST IT, you fall under the new rules, both bank account wise, earning wise, and Visa wise.  If this is the case, then shaft your plans and prepare for the mass exodus.  I also am not sure if you are American or British,  and or your age, but never the less, the laws now apply that is in effect whether you are employed or not.  As to the future new law about to hit Thailand in July 2004, that too will apply whether your business or employee.  

Sorry to say this, but hang in there.    ;blues:

[DaveYo]

I agree, the top Brass have been awful quiet.  Wondering.  I might say they are either thinking or trying to make sense of what is going on, or checking all this out carefully so they can give us the proper answers to the dilemmas we all face as of recent.

:blues:

[mrvietnam2001]

Regardless of whether or not the illustrious thai government changes their mind and says " we're really sorry about this, it won't happen now" is meaningless.

I was about to pay cash for a house in samui ( 6 million bht) and the german rejected my offer ( thankfully in retrospect).

There is no way I would invest one dime in thailand now unless I got something "irrevocable" in writing from the main people who seem to have the ability to flex whenever they want to flex and that's way too unstable for me to invest what I work hard to accumulate in life.

My bets are elsewhere at this point and yes, I have it in writing. English and "their" language as well.

Best of luck to you all

Mr Vietnam

[Roger13]

Dave Yo,

Your Ramblings might be misleading people.

To qualify as a GrandFather you must have applied for your Retirement extension annually since before the date of relevant increase in the Deposit/income amount.

( The Person you advised to do this, clearly stated he had not)

You also seem to think that one just Pays for a Resident Permit. But rather you need to apply at a certain time each year. And since there is a Quota - there is nothing definite.

Again you must have had 3 annual extensions to qualify to APPLY - you cannot apply after 2 annual + a collection of 90 days - which it seems you are planning to do.

And to Transfer money out of any country there

are Exchange Control Regulations to be complied with.

(Some Western Countries have very relaxed regulations

but you still need to know if you are in compliance).

In Thailand I was always told that if you could show you

had brought the Funds from Abroad - then you could send

the Funds out again - but whether you made a special

declaration certified by your Bank at the time MAYBE

a condition. Also it could depend on whether your Account

classified as a Resident Account or Non-Resident account.

Roger

[Roger13]

and evidence of the necessity to stay here permanently must be submitted.

Hurricane, I think you will find that this is the part that will cause the problems, and will apply to ALL categories of Retirement Visas.  I have no idea how one would be able to submit evidence to this effect, and if it really does become necessary, will again be subject to interpretation, and create a huge grey area........another one!

Hi Ken,

I did raise this at the beginning of the Thread.

Dr Pat_Pong replied:

Roger....I think this only means your valid reason for staying on in Thailand.

Since then I have been trying to think what is my valid rreason for staying here?

But another thought:

The Interview with the Colonel in Chiang Mai

is prefaced with a Translation "caution"

So I wonder if what was said in Thai was

"Evidence that you have what is necassary to stay in Thailand..."  ???

Roger

[DaveYo]

Roger, I know you have to qualify for the permanent residency and other things. In fact I even asked the person on how long to a few of them.  One of them has been here for 10 years, and it was asked if he got his residency and if not at least try.  I even included the possiblilty of being under some grandfather clause that he might be able to use if any apply as a suggestion.

Another one was kinda vague so I asked, and took it under the presumption of Nov 2001 onward.

As to the residency I said I have the one year now under my belt, and hopefully I can get another (1 year Extension) next year provided it is still available before they change it again if this guy in Chiang Mai is right on the button.  

I also understand that these 1 year visas are going to be done away with, but when this will happen is the question mark right now.  The way it is going it is very unpredictable.

As to of taking your money I do know you must in the beginning certify it from a bank that you brought it in from outside, and make sure you keep this paper at all times.  The point in question is your savings if you earned it in thailand.  If I do I am not putting it in the bank, if they refuse me to take it out.  I will wire it to my bank instead of it getting recorded in Thailand.

:blues:

[DaveYo]

You knw the more i keep reading on this news from Chaing Mai Officer, the more this makes me want to set my sites elsewhere.  Even if i am just a days ride away from thailand will be a heck of a lot better than dealing with this overall.  

Does anybody know what the information is in Vietnam, and have they relaxed their rules to accomodate us?

:blues:

[mrvietnam2001]

Dave, go too http://www.vietventures.com and do some research.

Then go to http://www.loveofasiavietnam.com and join the yahoo forum.

Rgrds

Mr Vietnam

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Ken...in this topic I am a doubting Thomas. I don't believe that the good Colonel is putting the position as it will be next year, so it is best if I say nothing yet. The rantings and political abuse that goes on here hardly does the farang cause much good. Trust me, these pages are read by many people of real political influence. Those that see greener grass in other countries are in for a surprise when they get to their Shangrila

[ralph]

It must be time for the farangs that live in Thailand to start a lobby group for farangs rights.  If we farangs were able to lobby the government maybe we could change the way that things are done to farangs.  I don't know if farangs could even start a lobbies group or not in Thailand, but it sure would be a start.  Yes of course we would need a Thai Lawyer or spoke person to talk/represent the lobby group.  

I have another concern that I'm planning on moving to Thailand in three years.    Is the new requirement doing away with the retirement visa and just lumping it into one visa.  

The next question I have for this posting is:  I am married to a Thai lady for almost 32 years and she is now a United State citizen.  Will she be able to move back to Thailand and live like a Thai citizen?  She still has her old Thai passport and Thai ID.  Her resistor still have her living in Thailand.

If you can help please msg me or post it here.

                       Ralph

[KenUdon]

Hi Roger.

Yes that particular phrase "valid reason etc" is causing me a lot of thought too. What on earth reason would be acceptable to them. I think if they asked me at this point in time, I would be stumped to come up with something specific that would satisfy them.

On the question of interpretation/translation, I still think that the the actual requirements as stated in the article are not from the Lt.Col. but directly from the committee, My understanding is that the only part that can be attributed to the Lt Col. are the replies to the questions from the CM paper. I hope I am wrong.

[KenUdon]

On reading the article again I think that the  actual requirements as stated in the article are not from the Lt.Col. but directly from the committee, My understanding is that the only part that can be attributed to the Lt Col. are the replies to the questions from the CM paper. Is that not how you see it?

Trust me, these pages are read by many people of real political influence. Those that see greener grass in other countries are in for a surprise.

On this, not sure what you are saying here. Care to expand?

[ericploy]

umm, Sorry for sounding stupid, But for the sake of clarity are these new rules for Employer's only ? Or will it apply to Employees also IE a Teacher employed on a wage of 25,000 baht a month would not meet the new immigration requirements correct ???    ???    After returning from LOS just yesterday after visiting the in-laws with Khun wifey we had a plan ... but if my above thoughts are correct then those plans have been shafted.    ???

I also am wondering this issue.  It does not seem clear.  Seems farang in general are referred to in some paragraphs, and only business owners in others.

Does anyone know if this is relevant to employees, or strictly employers?

[Edward B]

Does anyone know where this article came from? It would be helpful if the official Thai version was available somewhere because I too have serious doubts about it, especially the translation process. The first sentence almost sounds like the start of a joke email. "This is not allowed, unless.....". Hardly the legal language of an official proposal for changes to the law.

[MaiChai]

I would say this information is from a good source and is just being expanded on by the good Colonel. Generally things get "leaked" in Thailand, to be formally announced later.

I would recommend anyone who intends to come to Thailand to live that they keep all their money back home, and defer any major purchases in Thailand until everything is clear. I certainly think things are starting to look grim for the good hearted foreigner who is willing to come, invest here, and probably support many Thais as a result. One cannot undestand the logic in implementing these rules. It seems very little thought has gone into them, and the people drafting them have little experience of the real world (eg outside Thailand).

One can still come and live in Thailand, just rent instead of buying property, draw money via Visa/Debit cards from your home bank, maybe open a Thai account to maintain a little float. Be sensible, don't sever your links with your home country, maintain any investments and properties you have in your home countries. Don't sell up and move to Thailand.

[plachon]

"does the thai government have a retraining program for street girls

Any ideas  - SHOULD I TELL HER NOW or mai pen rai it?"

I think she's probably better off without her patron, who regards her as some kind of disposable dog. And what a fertile imagination DaveYo has!

[ChiangMaiThai]

This government is insane. I really believe they envision a Thailand that is hospital clean, sterile, 'morally correct' and economically booming. Kind of like Singapore... Dirty foreigners without big money do not fit into this equation. The reign of Toxin continues...

I wonder if they are so dilusional as to really believe that tens of thousands of small time foreign businessmen or foreigners who want to come here and take care of their wives, have absolutely no positive impact on the economy.

I dare immigration to go ahead with these measures. I look forward to watching the fallout.

[plachon]

I It seems very little thought has gone into them, and the people drafting them have little experience of the real world (eg outside Thailand).]

The scary thing is MaiChai, is they have. (foreign educated and frequent foreign trips for all cabinet members) But it's not your and I's "real world", where money is tight and has to be carefully budgeted. They move in a rarified world of VIP lounges, first class travel, purchasing luxury goods from cosmopolitan shops around the globe -- and mostly at some one else's expense, either the tax payer or their corporate sponsors (imagine going to look at buying those second hand Swiss tanks or German subs). They're divorced from reality and it shows up in all the hare-brained policy changes cropping up with the present PM, who has the power and mandate to push them through. Ideas only get rammed down from the top, they rarely get fed up from below.

[Roger13]

On reading the article again I think that the  actual requirements as stated in the article are not from the Lt.Col. but directly from the committee, My understanding is that the only part that can be attributed to the Lt Col. are the replies to the questions from the CM paper. Is that not how you see it?

Hi Ken,

Yes I agree with you.

But the para I was refering to:

In all cases we have used the most direct possible translation of the Thai proposals.

is at the head of the whole article - and so I thought also refered to the Draft Regulations from Suan Phlu.

If the original Thai version was available it might be

more useful - but I cannot read Thai.

To go back to:

Evidence of income (eg pensions) and evidence of the necessity to stay here permanently must be submitted.

I have just remembered that people below the Retirement Age who need to live in a warm/hot climate can qualify for a Retirement Visa - so the above quote could refer to evidence being required in this case.

Roger