'Ruling out the foreigner'

[mrentoul]

These people are in an incredible dilemna, and could do with less harsh words, and a little more of a sympathetic hearing, and maybe even some constructive help.

OK. I'll shut up for a while.

[parryhandy]

quite right dave we are on here to chat and help each other out with useful info and stuff. take no notice of sad little wind up merchants like mrentoul he obviously has nothing better to do.

[pschef]

1000 bath fee Mae Sai border is that for folks

only with 30 days stamp? What about touristvisa.

non imm. 1year visa? Lets get facts.What did that

person refused entri whitout paying 1000 bath did

he only had a stamp. Please when you wanna tell

us something say all and not only the half

Thank you all

Sorry I think I gave a good account of my friend going to Measai? He is a retired guy living in Thailand for the last 20 years, he went to get his regular stamp. This is to prove he still exists, he only wished for a walk over to buy some goods. WAS REFUSED. Why, Okay if you go out of Thailand right now. You must start over again, this means full visa requirements. He asked the officer, I see other people crossing on one day permits. OK, they are paying a 1000 Baht visa fee. Ok DO you now get the point? NO bribe, this is official. THIS MEAN EVERYONE, now is that clear enough ???

[DaveYo]

mrentoul, no one is saying you should shut up.  In fact we all welcome to hear you.  I appreciate your comment, so lets band together and come up with answers and work together to solve our problems.

We have to come up with good solid answers and stand tall and be proud OK.  How much time we have is anybodys guess, so how about all of us get started?

:blues:

[mrentoul]

sad little wind up merchants like mrentoul he obviously has nothing better to do.

Well, I don't agree with that, needless to say.

I'm not into name-calling. However, there's a few things I could say about ''non-complaints'' which wouldn't please you either. I assume you're one?

B40,000 a month is not much. The government's advice to you menfolk married to Thais is to get a job or leave. Surely between the two of you you could scratch together enough.

As I've said before, no one gets de-facto residency for free (though in Thailand many westerners have, in fact, enjoyed de facto residency for years). That's about to change.

Why should Thailand end up with the dregs, just because it's cheap to live here?

It's been too easy to get into this country and stay here on next to nothing for too long. That's the way the government sees it, though it's not because westerners are inherently undesirable, but because terrorists and other undesirables can live here for years undetected unless they are subject to regular border and income checks.

If I was the government, faced with the terrorist threat it faces, I wouldn't hesitate to pull up the drawbridge, and get rid of corrupt checkpoint immigration staff at the same time.

Wouldn't you rather be safe here with your families than exposed to constant risk from the Hambalis of this world?

It's a shame if the net has to catch everyone. I imagine a 60 year-old retired guy who has lived here does not pose much of a threat, same with the water-lilly grower above.

The tougher the rules get, the more people are inclined to break them. That's the government's dilemma, but it also creates opportunities for westerners who have lived here for years on the sly anyway.

[pschef]

What do you propose Daveyo, lets band together to do what?

[pschef]

The new rules are now confirmed by Immigration in Bangkok:

One-year stay financial threshold to double

George, I wonder where you got this info? when I made my one year extention, they never asked for both. It was either or, 200.000 in the bank or 20.000 per month. I was never asked about income, I just showed my bank book. I since then have worked in Thailand, blue book. I am now on a 12+3, nobody has really opened this subject. I wonder will I be charged 1000 to walk over and renew that visa ??? I look forward to your comments. ???

[mrentoul]

Wouldn't you rather be safe here with your families than exposed to constant risk from the Hambalis of this world?

Speaking of which, we're almost on the second anniversary of 11/9.

[DaveYo]

Thank you mr. pschef.  For example right now we are discussing the 40K.  There are several requirements imposed by the government.  One being 65K a month, this one 40K a month, and if I am not mistaken the new rule to affect companies requiring to pay different foreign nationals certain minimums as salary by April next year.  For me, being a USA citizen, that comes to 65K a month minimum if I work for some company in Thailand.

We see this part, now lets look at the earning potential in Thailand.  We all know it is much lower than the required amounts wanted by the Government.

Some of us members make their 20K and it is hard.  For example until I am able to get a work permit which will take perhaps a good year, what do I do in the meantime to meet the requirements as given?  I have to wait for my permit, yet I have a visa that requires me to have a work permit.  So I leave Thailand and come back every 90 days, but sooner or later they will ask where is my work permit which is part reason to get this Non-B Visa.

I know my Thai wife can perhaps from her line of work come up with her 15 to 20K.  But I cannot (per se legally) get it (till I get the permit) so I have to do some work behind the back doors.  Sure I have income coming in which will barely make the 65K if lucky, but I know best I can do is 62K per month from outside Thailand.  So technically I can meet the requirement as being married the 40K or 400K in bank.  If it goes up any further then I am in trouble.  It is to my understanding that in 2004 it is going to double again.

So what we have here is some people who can meet the requirements for the time being and others who cannot due to different reasons or situations.  The requirements eventually are going to get tougher maybe and maybe not, but I am not holding my breath.

So what solutions is there for the teachers, who teach English, yet the Government is pushing Thais to learn English and become bi-lingual.  Many if best can get if lucky 30K.  

One problem is Thai Government has restricted a lot of potential jobs to foreigners, so we ourselves have few options if any to go on based on our skills to help and share it to benefit Thailand.

We need to find a solution here in finding a way to earn and meet these requirements without depending on our outside sources of income.  I believe this is the key in all of this regarding the financial aspects.

Any suggestions?

:blues:

[pavina]

to pschef.........No i dont.Your friend the retired

guy used a 30 days stamp. Yes or no. You say everyone

have to pay 1000 bath. For touristvisa. non imm. 1 years

all have to pay right or wrong.Maybe im a little bit stupid

or too old 65

Once again thanks

[parryhandy]

I'm not into name-calling. However, there's a few things I could say about ''non-complaints'' which wouldn't please you either. I assume you're one?

no i am a legally staying married man with children and law abiding as well.

what rankles me is the money aspect. where i come from in england it does not matter how much money you have. if you wanted respect you earnt it , money or no money.do you really think these laws will effect the people they are targetting , the criminals and terrorists ? of course not.

and as for the dregs comment well over 70 percent of the population of thailand earn less than 5000 baht a month legally i.e without the black economy.are all these people dregs then ?

[Payne]

I have no quarrel with the new requirements for a one year residence visas for chaps wityh Thai wives: 400,000 baht in the bank or a family  income of 40,000 baht per month. Its really up the the Thai government whom they permit to live in thier country and under what circumstances.

Come to think of it, there are many countries in the world with much higher asset/ncome requirements for alien residents.

However, I trust that some special arrangements will be made for teachers at language schools and other educational insititutions? The Kingdom greatly benefits from their services.

[parryhandy]

However, I trust that some special arrangements will be made for teachers at language schools and other educational insititutions? The Kingdom greatly benefits from their services.

yes the special arrangements are unless these schools pay you between 50 - 60000 baht a month depending where your from they are not allowed to employ you.and they will check this with tax records if need be.so the cost of this beneficial service has just been hiked.

[MaiChai]

mrentoul you are being too harsh on people. Just because people don't have a lot of money doesn't make them the dregs of society. I know a lot of really sincere, nice people who aren't rich. You are lucky as you work for a large company that pay good wages. Many foreign folks have to work for much less for smaller companies who can't afford fat cat expat packages. Take a look at many of the Phillipino English teachers working in Thailand; these folks don't even make the low salaries the farang English teachers make.

The hikes are too much, and don't reflect typical salaries in Thailand, so are we assuming that the only foreigners to be employed here are those on expat packages working for large international companies? This excludes the SMEs that the government keeps harping on about, who won't be able to afford to employ foreigners with specialist skills (some foreigners are prepared to work for less to be able to stay in Thailand).

Working on the basis of money will not keep the sex tourists, terrorists or undesireables out of Thailand. Terrorists are typically well financed, and the governments plan for the VIP card could be abused by less than desireable characters.

The trouble with Thailand is that money wealds too much power. Rich does not equate to a good person

Rich people can live in places like Monte Carlo, Florida, Calafornia, etc. The whole point about living in Thailand (and putting up with quite a few disadvantages) is because it is cheap and warm. Remove the cheapness, and it losses its advantage. Then people look elsewhere to make their megre pensions/funds go further...

[mrvietnam2001]

""Remove the cheapness, and it losses its advantage.""

Time to change then.

Go make some money. Best therapy I know.

Mr Vietnam  

[marty]

Quote: heychay (Sep. 09 2003,18:52):

“just wondering:

A foreigner who entered the Kingdom before October 21st, 1998....

Does anyone know if this means entered on a non-imm B, entered as a tourist, entered and have never left? which date counts? Do you think they have even thought this out?”

Heychay, “first entry into the Kingdom” is not how a foreigner would interpret the phrase. If you entered before October 21st, 1998 on a Non-O visa, but later left without getting a Re-Entry permit, you have to start all over again when you return. I first entered in 1994 on a Non-B visa, left for a short while in 1999 without a Re-Entry, and was given a 30-day tourist visa on arrival at Don Muang. The Immigration stamp in my passport stating that I was allowed to stay in Thailand until June 2000 while my application for permanent residence was under consideration, was ignored. I was told that I no longer had a valid visa.

[marty]

Reply to Axel (Posted Sep. 09 2003,18:41)

Axel, I don’t have a company, nor do I know any foreigner running a small business directly. I just assumed that there probably are some, and wondered how the new rules would affect them, because the language used is so imprecise, and there is no apparent differentiation between the various types of companies established here by foreigners in the following quote:

“To do business in Thailand, the business must be important and useful to the Thai economy and people, and be highly invested. The foreigners must be executives or experts at what they do. The officer will consider the security of the business, its capital and tax payments and Labour Ministry requirements. Reasons to run the business must be given.”

My thought was that this leaves continuation of any business “operated” by a foreigner (including possibly a Thai Ltd company where foreigners hold 49 % of the shares) entirely at the mercy of an Immigration officer.  BOI-invested  companies have the money and have never had any problems with getting visas for the foreign co-owners or the foreign staff, so why would they be included in the new rules? Are these rules perhaps not aimed at other foreign businesses/ businessmen?

[gisele]

I am curious about the wording, does the ruling only apply to foreigner men marrying Thai women, what about Foreigner women marrying Thai men? The wording seems to imply that it is only foreigner men.  ???

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It mostly is foreign men. Not totally, but mostly.      

[DaveYo]

Marty, good question here.  Lets do a bit of a breakdown of the Thai Government sayings as you quoted.

"To do the business in Thailand, the business must be important and useful to the Thai economy and its people."

So this means we have to show that this business is important and useful in generating cash flow to the Thai economy, and in its people are any employed by us for them to make their living.

Next-" highly invested."  This is very vague, but there are some regulations what constitutes value being invested.  From what I have seen they are talking big baht.

Next- "The foreigners must be executives or experts on what they do"   If we are owners we are executives and expert enough to not only start the business but run it too.

Next- "The officer will consider the security of the business"  which means what.  My question is what security does he need to consider?

Next-"its capital (which is how much stuff we bought to make this business run) and the tax payments we have made and  if such is registered to the Labor ministry.

Here is the biggie Quote that scares me the most-"reasons to run such business"   What reasons constitute a valid reason to such officer?  

Bottom line is the officer is given huge great latitude of power in deciding about your business when it comes to getting that work permit or having it renewed.  If he does not like you or does not like just one answer, poof goes your work permit.  Now what happens to the business?  Can they order us to shut it down?

Do we have any optional recourses to go to get this work permit because perhaps  maybe such officer might have been bias towards any one of us?

It is indeed very vague and surely this sort of promotes potential blackmail and additional tea money just to say Khop Khun to such officer once you get that permit.

:blues:

[DaveYo]

Dr. PP,   Do you know anything of what happened to that one case that went to court in Thailand, from some Judge who complained of about a foreigner woman who marries a male Thai, is granted either Citizenship or permanent residence, whereas the male who marries a Thai female does not get the same rights and status quo?  I believe this Judge was a foreigner if I do recall correctly.

:blues: ???

[DaveYo]

Curious Dr. PP.  If the wording applies to males 95% of the time, why the gender discrimination?  Must we become a T/S just to avoid getting hit so hard?

:blues:  ???

[dr_Pat_Pong]

A case is before the Court based on Thai gender equality, as yet there is no outcome. There certainly are no foreign members of the Thai judiciary.

[DaveYo]

Dr. PP, thanks for the update.  If there is no foreigner in the judiciary, can you refresh my memory of who brought up this case and in brief terms how this case got started?

:blues:

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It was in article on here ...I'll ask George

[DaveYo]

Dr. PP.  One other thing, if this person does win the case based on equality, do you realize the implications that may be involved concerning us foreigners, and if such rights are given to us men equal of same to the women?  Holy moly!  I just wonder how many will become citizens by default, or permanent residents by default.

Now what does this do with these new rules being implied?  How much will it affect us.

:blues:   This will open up a new can of worms here.

[JT65]

Im starting to understand that this Government really just do not want foreigners in their land.  Its taking time to sink in but it certainly seems to be the case when you read the tone of the articles presented.  I am curious about a few things.

Is there other countries in the world that dictate what income a foreigner from a specific country has to earn to gain a work permit?  Is there discriminatory  rules such as these in other Asian countries?  Would be interested to know.

In addition I personally feel our Embassies will do absolutely nothing to counter the new rules or question them.  It is infuriating for me when I recently read that my own country is on the verge of giving a free trade agreement and relaxing VISA requirements for Thai businessman. I am a foreign businessman who seems to be getting the opposite treatment.

Many believe the Thai's will suffer with the loss of the long term farang. I want to believe this but I dont think they care. In reality the tourists will keep coming as they dont understand, know or care about the discrimination given to long term expats.  The loss of small business operated by foreigners will be seen by most Thais as a good thing.  As a supplier of mine recently said " If you go there are many more Farang who will come".  This is the attitude and they will in my opinion keep it.  The only chance for long term expats is if the embassies and governments of the west start to jump up and down and threaten tariffs on Thai goods.  My government will certainly not do this but maybe the Americans or European governments will.  I certainly hope so but will not be holding my breath.

There is a bigger picture to this which I am not comfortable writing about on this board which I believe involves strong connections with China. I may get flamed for this comment but just look at the faces of the major players in the Thai Government.  Do they look Thai?

[PNG]

dear forum members that are the rules in thai

http://www.gmorning.info/features_ruling_o...oreigner_th.htm

i'm sorry for the person translate this to english it is enough 400.000.-THB or 40.000.-THB a month and the officer was wherry friendly the way he explain it so please no panic slow down if you don't believe translate it be a qualified interpreter

best gegards

to all

Immigration proposals in effect from July, 2004

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I hate to disillusion you JT65 but there's absolutely no connection between Thai Visa or its Administrators with any China, either PRC or ROC. I do wonder how you reached such a wild conclusion

[JT65]

I hate to disillusion you JT65 but there's absolutely no connection between Thai Visa or its Administrators with any China, either PRC or ROC. I do wonder how you reached such a wild conclusion

I was not talking about the board having connections with China. I was inferring the Thai Government is becoming closer with China than it is with the west. I just am been cautious in what I write. I may need to return to Thailand soon to clear up some things and I believe the Thai Government monitors this board!