Unable To Buy Land Officially

[mikalmus]

My gf is thinking of buying some land from her Mother's sister but says that she is unable to sell it by law so the deal will have to be handshake only. She says she will inform the village head but she has fears that once the Aunt dies her children may come and try and claim the land as theirs. I have no actual involvement in this whatsoever but she has saved up nearly a year to buy this for both of us (she is the breadwinner) and I don't want to see her getting screwed.

Does anyone knoe about this law? I assumed it was brought in when the government was assigning land ownership to areas with no official records. The government 'gave' the land to the farmers but restricted their ability to sell. Is this true? She says other people have done it like this but I'm still nervous for her and was hoping someone here ould shed some light on the subject.

The land is in Surin if that helps.

Thanks

[johnnyk]

My gf is thinking of buying some land from her Mother's sister but says that she is unable to sell it by law...

???

If it can't be sold then how can it be bought?

[mikalmus]

My gf is thinking of buying some land from her Mother's sister but says that she is unable to sell it by law...

???

If it can't be sold then how can it be bought?

Fair point. She pays her Aunt for the land but doesn't become the legal owner of the land.

[johnnyk]

She has been a nice girl to her aunt then but doesn't own anything.

She is jai dee.

[LivinLOS]

Sor Por Kor or Tor Bor Ha (??)..

Common land titles in out fo the way places that dont actually confer any ownership rights under true law.. But seem to be done and traded a lot in the stick, on remote islands, etc etc..

As per johnnyk shes basically giving her aunt some money based on a hope it all works out.. Consider it money flushed !!!

I have heard that when selling is done not between family members, then both parties have gone to the local poo yai baan, the document is handed over, and both parties sign the transaction is done. Its basically a rural trade witnessed by local power but unenforceable in true low, but seems to work in usual village life. Add a farang into the mix, and put anything of value on the land, and you upset the rural balance.

[InterestedObserver]

Yes there are time restrictions on the transfer of some land plots as you surmised. The so called sale to your GF, if it takes place now, should be registered on the back of the Chanote similar to a mortgage. This will prevent the GF from "getting screwed". Will require the cooperation of the local land office. I also suggest a trustworthy lawyer handle the details. Nothing gets a family fighting more than a dispute over a piece of land.

Edited February 13, 2009 by InterestedObserver

[HorseDoctor]

Yes there are time restrictions on the transfer of some land plots as you surmised. The so called sale to your GF, if it takes place now, should be registered on the back of the Chanote similar to a mortgage. This will prevent the GF from "getting screwed". Will require the cooperation of the local land office. I also suggest a trustworthy lawyer handle the details. Nothing gets a family fighting more than a dispute over a piece of land.

If the Title is Chanote, then there is no problem selling it. Sounds like RatchaPassaDu ( sic) " King's Land" Phulet is full of these land plots. The entire Bang Tao coast is like this. HAs to do with keeping land out of the predominately Muslim hands

I believe the entire Laguna resort is built on untitled land

[thaiwanderer]

Yes there are time restrictions on the transfer of some land plots as you surmised. The so called sale to your GF, if it takes place now, should be registered on the back of the Chanote similar to a mortgage. This will prevent the GF from "getting screwed". Will require the cooperation of the local land office. I also suggest a trustworthy lawyer handle the details. Nothing gets a family fighting more than a dispute over a piece of land.

If the Title is Chanote, then there is no problem selling it. Sounds like RatchaPassaDu ( sic) " King's Land" Phulet is full of these land plots. The entire Bang Tao coast is like this. HAs to do with keeping land out of the predominately Muslim hands

I believe the entire Laguna resort is built on untitled land

OT but regarding Horsedoctor's post:-

There was no need to keep laguna out of muslim or buddist hands, nobody wanted it as it seemed unlikely any vegetation would grow there. Laguna's land is (now) 100% legal.

Whilst much of the island is beautiful naysayers against 'development' often have the mistaken impression Phuket was some tropical unspoilt idyll with no devastating industry (i am not saying this is you Horsedoctor).

That is not to say however that much of the public and reserved land in Phuket has not been acquired at one time or another, some legitimately by pre-existing long term use some by less legitimate means. However those dealings stretching back to my father and grandfather's times (and beyond) are now murky to say the least and there is no paper trail to debunk much of the ownership.

Also, of course, some of the chanotes (with a perfect paper trail) were merely issued 'imaginatively'.

[BigSnake]

My gf is thinking of buying some land from her Mother's sister but says that she is unable to sell it by law so the deal will have to be handshake only. She says she will inform the village head but she has fears that once the Aunt dies her children may come and try and claim the land as theirs. I have no actual involvement in this whatsoever but she has saved up nearly a year to buy this for both of us (she is the breadwinner) and I don't want to see her getting screwed.

Does anyone knoe about this law? I assumed it was brought in when the government was assigning land ownership to areas with no official records. The government 'gave' the land to the farmers but restricted their ability to sell. Is this true? She says other people have done it like this but I'm still nervous for her and was hoping someone here ould shed some light on the subject.

The land is in Surin if that helps.

Thanks

We had to deal with a similar problem in early 2000, best advice, YOU should find a good English speaking lawyer in your area. It can be very complicate their could be a large family tree and they smell a little free baht they will come out of the woodwork. NUFF SAID, LAWYER

[Arkady]

My gf is thinking of buying some land from her Mother's sister but says that she is unable to sell it by law so the deal will have to be handshake only. She says she will inform the village head but she has fears that once the Aunt dies her children may come and try and claim the land as theirs. I have no actual involvement in this whatsoever but she has saved up nearly a year to buy this for both of us (she is the breadwinner) and I don't want to see her getting screwed.

Does anyone knoe about this law? I assumed it was brought in when the government was assigning land ownership to areas with no official records. The government 'gave' the land to the farmers but restricted their ability to sell. Is this true? She says other people have done it like this but I'm still nervous for her and was hoping someone here ould shed some light on the subject.

The land is in Surin if that helps.

Thanks

There are some types of title deed that can't be transferred e.g. degraded forestry reserve land that has been titled in favour of farmers who have been utilizing the land for generations. A transferrable title deed is called a chanote and is transferable without restriction. There may be many reasons why this land can't be transferred including: a non-transferable title deed; the aunt doesn't actually own some or all of the land; the land is mortgaged etc etc.

Unless your gf just wants to make a gift of the money to her aunt, there is no point in paying money for land that she will not own. The cousins, the aunt, the government or whoever is the real owner will definitely come and reclaim the land at some point. In fact there are many cases like this where the children come and claim the land, even if it was legitimately bought and transferred, on the basis that it was understood to have been a mortgage transaction and not a clear sale which in some cases was actually true. I also know of a case of a purchase from a relative who failed to mention that part of the plot was actually government land and the purchaser who trusted the seller didn't have the land surveyed first.

After a great year for rice prices last year, things are going to be more difficult this year and many people will lose their jobs in the city and be forced to sell their land upcountry to make ends meet. I would strongly suggest that your gf takes her time to look for another plot that she can own, as it doesn't sound as if she wants to just give away cash to relatives.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Arkady

[allcladrad]

"I don't want to see her getting screwed"

Under the terms you have spelled out there is no way to avoid her getting screwed.

A guess, if the property can't be old legally, it isn't owned legally. So if the family doesn't get her the government or someone else will.

[Arkady]

Here is a useful account of the different types of land title from an article in The Nation I found in another thread.

"Land is titled depending on its survey status. Make sure of the land title before you buy, often prices vary greatly depending on the type title, or you might find someone else laying claim to your rai after just after you finish building your retirement home.

"Chanott ti din" are title deeds with land accurately surveyed. If you have one, it gives you incontestable possession of the land. The most developed areas of provinces have these titles. But even in farang-friendly Phuket, for example, only 10 per cent of the land is under this title.

As it stands, most "titles" around the country are "Nor Sor Sam" or "Nor Sor Sam Kor". They are land title deeds in as much as clear records of ownership are maintained, and that they may be sold or leased, but they tend to be less accurately surveyed than Chanott titles.

If purchasing Nor Sor Sam-titled land that lacks clearly defined physical boundaries, ask the owner to stake out the boundaries and then ask neighbouring landowners to confirm his work.

And there are more. Sor Kor Nung, Tor Bor Tor Hoc, and Tor Bor Tor Ha are essentially squatter's rights registered at the district office for a small fee. Unlike the Chanott and the Nor Sor Sam Kor, they cannot legally be sold, nor can you build on the land if you are stupid enough to buy it. So be a prudent foreigner and ignore the Sor Kors and Tor Bors.

Oh yes, I almost forgot one: the Sor Bor Kor. These are true title deeds, accurately surveyed and pegged (like a Chanott). They can be mortgaged and developed. But the big but is they cannot be leased, sold or transferred.

So, also ignore Sor Bor Kor.

Chanott and the Nor Sor Sam Kor are the only titles over which a registered right of ownership or lease. Stick to them."

Phil Macdonald

The Nation

[thaiwanderer]

"Chanott ti din" are title deeds with land accurately surveyed. If you have one, it gives you incontestable possession of the land. The most developed areas of provinces have these titles. But even in farang-friendly Phuket, for example, only 10 per cent of the land is under this title.

over simplified and incorrect

flying chanotes anyone?

[hhgz]

"My gf is thinking of buying some land from her Mother's sister..."

Once again, a farang is poking his nose into something that shouldn't concern him. His GF is Thai, her entire family is Thai, and they know Thai law. I'm not sure why he expects a bunch of farangs to come to his - excuse me, "her" - rescue.

[Livinginexile]

"I have no actual involvement in this whatsoever but she has saved up nearly a year to buy this for both of us (she is the breadwinner) and I don't want to see her getting screwed."

Oh pleeeease....not another one

Don't tell us, you are just a poor, unskilled, uneducated and unemployed farang and a rich Thai woman is keeping you.

Yeah right!

If this is true (which it is not) why do these guys bother to tell us?

Sheesh