Rite Seeks To Absolve Thaksin Of 'past Life Bad Karma'

[camerata]

It's a bit disappointing that the abbot of Wat Umong was involved in this nonsense.

Rite seeks to absolve Thaksin of 'past life bad karma'

Ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra's supporters held a rite at a Chiang Mai temple yesterday aimed at correcting "his sins in the past life" that were believed to have resulted in his bad karma.

The rite, a combination of animism, voodoo and Buddhism, was performed by the abbot of Wat Umong and eight other monks, as well as a pro-Thaksin trance medium. It was presided over by General Chaisit Shinawatra, Thaksin's cousin and former supreme commander of the armed forces.

His supporters expected the Lanna-style ceremony to help relieve Thaksin of bad luck and ward off evil coming his way. About 300 people took part in the rite.

A large framed photo of Thaksin was placed on a stand at the venue. The fugitive ex-leader was unable to attend as he has fled abroad and lives in self-imposed exile.

A woman in her 50s, who is from the pro-Thaksin Rak Chiang Mai 51 group, acted as a trance medium.

She announced that in his previous life, Thaksin was a local warrior king who committed sins by killing his Burmese enemies and taking their money and Buddha images. The sins were said to be having a negative effects on Thaksin in his current life.

Continued here.

[sabaijai]

I was disappointed as well, had always thought Wat Umong was beyond politics and not much involved with animistic rites. The temple must have received an awful lot of money from an influential donor. Thaksin's brother owns a huge estate covering several city blocks almost adjacent to Wat Umong.

[fabianfred]

It is indeed a pity that so many, supposedly educated, Buddhists here know very little about their professed religion. No such thing as wiping out karma for another being. We can only help ourselves...... by our own practise.

[rockyysdt]

It is indeed a pity that so many, supposedly educated, Buddhists here know very little about their professed religion. No such thing as wiping out karma for another being. We can only help ourselves...... by our own practise.

Can't/won't those in authority (Buddhist) expose this and distance themselves and the dhamma from such behaviour?

[sabaijai]

I imagine it will become a subject for a few thet (sermons) around the country.

[wolfmanjack]

What a joke.

I do not know much about it but I thought the only way to erase bad karma from thr past was to build up good karma in the present and future.

[fabianfred]

What a joke.

I do not know much about it but I thought the only way to erase bad karma from thr past was to build up good karma in the present and future.

no way to erase karma...it isn't like a bank account with black and red cancelling each other out...it is like a seperate account for red and black

we can do so much good karma that it swamps the bad.......like Buddha compared a spoonful of salt in a glass of water making it undrinkable, but the same spoonful in a river is undetectable ...so the bad karma has little chance to take effect..

or we can practise Vipassana..the strongest karma...and by dedicating the merits to our enemies...if they forgive us the karma we had caused is cancelled out..

[SeerObserver]

Thaksin's supporters also included the naming of his political enemies - coup leader General Sonthi Boonyaratglin and People's Alliance for Democracy co-leader Sondhi Limthongkul - in the superstitious rite. It was supposed that the evil warded off from the former premier would be directed at them instead.

Chaisit, Thaksin's cousin, rejected a report that Thaksin "needed" the rite because he was ill. He said the rite was in fact aimed at "clearing off all the past sins" for Thaksin.

Aiming to clear bad karma is one thing, and is arguable in and of itself, but a ceremony directing ill-will at others is quite another. Not exactly Buddhist, nawmsayin'?

What a joke.

I do not know much about it but I thought the only way to erase bad karma from thr past was to build up good karma in the present and future.

no way to erase karma...it isn't like a bank account with black and red cancelling each other out...it is like a seperate account for red and black

we can do so much good karma that it swamps the bad.......like Buddha compared a spoonful of salt in a glass of water making it undrinkable, but the same spoonful in a river is undetectable ...so the bad karma has little chance to take effect..

or we can practise Vipassana..the strongest karma...and by dedicating the merits to our enemies...if they forgive us the karma we had caused is cancelled out..

I agree with you and subscribe to this same teaching, but may have a slightly different take on the last part. Is it that the bad karma will have little chance to take effect, or that the effect will be less severe? Take the example of the splinter from the boulder that Devadatta pushed off of the cliffside drawing blood from the Buddha's foot. It would seem that karma took its effect, but was diluted since more and more fresh water was added to the mix.

[khaowong1]

It is indeed a pity that so many, supposedly educated, Buddhists here know very little about their professed religion. No such thing as wiping out karma for another being. We can only help ourselves...... by our own practise.

I believe your exactly right. I believe the Lord Buddha said the same thing. I may be wrong. But I am quite surprised that the Abbot of Wat Umong went along with this travesty. Must have been lot's of money and politics involved. I'm saddened.

[khaowong1]

What a joke.

I do not know much about it but I thought the only way to erase bad karma from thr past was to build up good karma in the present and future.

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu talks about stopping karma in this lifetime in his book - Heartwood from the Bo Tree..

[SeerObserver]

I believe your exactly right. I believe the Lord Buddha said the same thing. I may be wrong. But I am quite surprised that the Abbot of Wat Umong went along with this travesty. Must have been lot's of money and politics involved. I'm saddened.

While it may be surprising to hear that Theravada Buddhist monks participated in this travesty, we should not blame them. It was a hard place that they were put in by the people who chaired this event. The monks are part of the community and therefore have to do what is necessary in order for a rift not to form within the community.

By not allowing this ceremony, they may lose the support of some of the community and worse yet they may face backlash from them. The monks were between a rock and a hard place. It was wrong of the laypeople to bring this stuff to the temples. It is they who should have used better judgment than to create a situation where the monks had to decide between orthodoxy and not splitting the community (which holding a politically aligned gathering runs the risk of doing).

It is negligent to put the monks in these kinds of positions and people who do so should not feel absolved of the burden of the ceremony just because the temple followed through. It is often the case that people try to displace the blame by saying that it was someone else who made the last decision. This may not have been the case this time, but the latter was a blanket statement to address a common phenomena.

[ChiangMaiFun]

What a joke.

I do not know much about it but I thought the only way to erase bad karma from thr past was to build up good karma in the present and future.

no way to erase karma...it isn't like a bank account with black and red cancelling each other out...it is like a seperate account for red and black

we can do so much good karma that it swamps the bad.......like Buddha compared a spoonful of salt in a glass of water making it undrinkable, but the same spoonful in a river is undetectable ...so the bad karma has little chance to take effect..

or we can practise Vipassana..the strongest karma...and by dedicating the merits to our enemies...if they forgive us the karma we had caused is cancelled out..

I don't think we can 'dedicate' karma (merit) to enemies as you profer - karma is personal and universal - cannot be altered by ceremony or 'given' nor 'taken' by others. It is the ultimate in 'self-responsibility' that spans incarnations... 'negative' karma is absolved through enhancing 'positive' acts, thoughts and deeds until, eventually, it is no more.

[rockyysdt]

By not allowing this ceremony, they may lose the support of some of the community and worse yet they may face backlash from them. The monks were between a rock and a hard place. It was wrong of the laypeople to bring this stuff to the temples. It is they who should have used better judgment than to create a situation where the monks had to decide between orthodoxy and not splitting the community (which holding a politically aligned gathering runs the risk of doing).

Sounds like a Buddha vs Buddhism issue as alluded in Farangisaan's post.

Perhaps they should have allowed the backlash to occur, observe it for what it is, and not allow it to affect them.

Edited March 5, 2009 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

I don't think we can 'dedicate' karma (merit) to enemies as you profer - karma is personal and universal - cannot be altered by ceremony or 'given' nor 'taken' by others. It is the ultimate in 'self-responsibility' that spans incarnations... 'negative' karma is absolved through enhancing 'positive' acts, thoughts and deeds until, eventually, it is no more.

the Thai is 'Pair metta, pair suan kuson' which means when we do a merituous act like giving alms to the monks, practising meditation, etc. we can dedicate the merit to beings in other realms, which could alleviate their time in those realms and even allow them to take rebirth elsewhere according to their karma...

"idam sabba veri nam hotu sukita hontu sabbe veri" kor suan bun nii jong samret kee jaw kam naay ween tang laay kor jaw kam naay ween tang laay jong mii kwaam suk...

[SeerObserver]

By not allowing this ceremony, they may lose the support of some of the community and worse yet they may face backlash from them. The monks were between a rock and a hard place. It was wrong of the laypeople to bring this stuff to the temples. It is they who should have used better judgment than to create a situation where the monks had to decide between orthodoxy and not splitting the community (which holding a politically aligned gathering runs the risk of doing).

Sounds like a Buddha vs Buddhism issue as alluded in Farangisaan's post.

Perhaps they should have allowed the backlash to occur, observe it for what it is, and not allow it to affect them.

That would make for interesting almsgivings.

Edited March 6, 2009 by SeerObserver

[ChiangMaiFun]

I don't think we can 'dedicate' karma (merit) to enemies as you profer - karma is personal and universal - cannot be altered by ceremony or 'given' nor 'taken' by others. It is the ultimate in 'self-responsibility' that spans incarnations... 'negative' karma is absolved through enhancing 'positive' acts, thoughts and deeds until, eventually, it is no more.

the Thai is 'Pair metta, pair suan kuson' which means when we do a merituous act like giving alms to the monks, practising meditation, etc. we can dedicate the merit to beings in other realms, which could alleviate their time in those realms and even allow them to take rebirth elsewhere according to their karma...

"idam sabba veri nam hotu sukita hontu sabbe veri" kor suan bun nii jong samret kee jaw kam naay ween tang laay kor jaw kam naay ween tang laay jong mii kwaam suk...

Hi - yes I understand that this is part of the Thai 'Buddhist culture' but unconvinced it is in fact 'a fact' that we can offset others mis-deeds - bit like I don't accept Christians 'repenting' their mis-deeds and having the slate wiped clean at 'confession' etc.

I am convinced and certain that we are responsible, entirely, for our actions... and that others are accountable for theirs - no escape clause apart from diligent expression of compassion, discipline and love - no short cuts! (alas)

[fabianfred]

My own education about how karma works comes from Luang Por Jaran, the abbot of Wat Ampawan Singhburi, whose temple is a Vipassana centre of repute and he is generally considered to be an Arahant.

Edited March 6, 2009 by fabianfred

[ChiangMaiFun]

My own education about how karma works comes from Luang Por Jaran, the abbot of Wat Ampawan Singhburi, whose temple is a Vipassana centre of repute and he is generally considered to be an Arahant.

With greatest respect to the Abbot (and you) - I tend to agregate my understanding and teaching from around the World - including Theosophical/Hindu sources rather than a particular branch of Buddhism.

[fabianfred]

My own education about how karma works comes from Luang Por Jaran, the abbot of Wat Ampawan Singhburi, whose temple is a Vipassana centre of repute and he is generally considered to be an Arahant.

With greatest respect to the Abbot (and you) - I tend to agregate my understanding and teaching from around the World - including Theosophical/Hindu sources rather than a particular branch of Buddhism.

Perhaps it is time you settled upon a path and followed it......

just going a little way down each path and then returning to try another one...will you ever get to the end?

There are several paths to nirvana..... but we have to walk them to the end. Merely standing at the beginning and admiring the map will do no good...we have to start walking.

There are those who do not have the correct map....... some have no map at all...... but far greater are the number of those who do not even know there is a journey to be made!

[SeerObserver]

..... but far greater are the number of those who do not even know there is a journey to be made!

What a tragic and arguably dangerous existence, to squander away the prime opportunity for progress. To think of how long (depending on how that life goes) it will take for them to again get this opportunity makes you really want to stay on track.

[rockyysdt]

I am convinced and certain that we are responsible, entirely, for our actions... and that others are accountable for theirs - no escape clause apart from diligent expression of compassion, discipline and love - no short cuts! (alas)

Maybe this can be resolved once and for all, by Thaksin returning to Thailand.

Then we'll know for sure whether one can have accumulated bad kamma absolved or not.