Hospital Nightmare

[LivinginKata]

Wishing Josh a speedy recovery.

Well known fact in Thailand is that money takes president before life & humanity.

I do hope that TV lets this thread run for the next 24 hours or so.

Syl.

So Syl... you have gone from the above post to ...

"The more I read replies from the OP the more I think that this might be some sort of a scam to get good people to part with their money.

Give every one more proof what you say happened really happened.

Syl"

Edited March 2, 2009 by donna
personal attack removed by mods.

[kjbowman]

This is not a scam.

www.scarborougheveningnews.co.uk/news/39Please-help-get-our-injured.4990346.jp?

Josh's father died 15 years ago and his mother rents a house in which she cares for her 90 year old mother who suffers from dementia.

Please stop, whoever you are; if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

[Syl]

This is not a scam.

www.scarborougheveningnews.co.uk/news/39Please-help-get-our-injured.4990346.jp?

Josh's father died 15 years ago and his mother rents a house in which she cares for her 90 year old mother who suffers from dementia.

Please stop, whoever you are; if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

Thank you kjbowman for the link. I will be making my donation through paypal.

Sorry if I upset anybody with my comments, but I had to ask. I am sure you can understand.

Best Regards, Syl

[H2oDunc]

He always wore his helmet, but rarely did up the chin-strap. We can only assume that it fell off.

As we all know, in Thailand a helmet is worn to avoid a fine, not to protect the head. Another victim of this wonderful but frighteningly insidious culture.

Im sorry but has absolutely nothing to do with any insidious culture and all to do with stupidity. Lets hope when he recovers he will do up the strap!

[katasyd]

This is not a scam.

www.scarborougheveningnews.co.uk/news/39Please-help-get-our-injured.4990346.jp?

Josh's father died 15 years ago and his mother rents a house in which she cares for her 90 year old mother who suffers from dementia.

Please stop, whoever you are; if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

Which hospital is he located?

I would like to donate to his hospital bills but would feel more comfortable doing it in person.

Do you have a rough idea how much the bill to date?

[Syl]

I would like to also donate a two seater sea kayak with life jackets towards the raffle.

I will PM you a contact number to arrange delivery. Again sorry for my comments.

Syl.

[pete600]

This is not a scam.

www.scarborougheveningnews.co.uk/news/39Please-help-get-our-injured.4990346.jp?

Josh's father died 15 years ago and his mother rents a house in which she cares for her 90 year old mother who suffers from dementia.

Please stop, whoever you are; if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

Which hospital is he located?

I would like to donate to his hospital bills but would feel more comfortable doing it in person.

Do you have a rough idea how much the bill to date?

Not sure what hospital he is in but they are looking to raise up 600k

[fiddlehead]

From what i understand, he is out of the hospital and staying with friends.

but he is still incoherent and it sounds bad.

I know there's a lot of negative people on this forum.

When i first read the OP's first post, i thought, well at least we can have a nice fundraiser for Josh and this should turn out to be a positive thread.

I am quite shocked at the remarks I just read.

Human nature here is not the same as where i was brought up. that's for sure. and i don't mean the hospital although they should be ashamed too, but they are not western, YOU guys are!

Shame on you.

[Sir Burr]

I don't blame anyone for being sceptical on an internet forum, especially if money is being asked for.

If you are sceptical, or, have any doubts, especially in a case like this, it's probably best not to post rather than voice your concerns.

[Boo]

Posts mentioning a bank account have been removed, Thaivisa does not allow solicitation. If you wish to make a donation then get details from the op via pm. OP do not post the bank details here again.

[geriatrickid]

The issue for me is that BHP is being blamed for something it shouldn't be blamed for. If you have a billing dispute call Dr. Kespechara's office and ask for an appointment. This situation is not BHP's doing. The hospital may very well reduce its charges if someone sits down and discusses this in a non-confrontational manner. I am not arguing against helping.

Again, several unfair statements have been made about BHP.

Well, hospitals are not suppose to discharge unless asked to? I also wonder at the same question. But are hospitals allowed to threaten to discharge when not asked to? And some SOP, they couldn't even trace a fax properly until they were asked to a second time.

The SOP is that patients that cannot pay are stabilized aand then sent to the nearest public facility that will accept the patient. It is not unheard of for a public hospital to refuse to accept a transfer because it does not have the resources to care for the patient. Patong General is the last place I would want to be with a serious head injury.

And yes, I suppose its ethical to take the thumbprint of a man who is not fully conscious or able to reason for himself, and for some reason, to ask his friends to obtain the thumbprint of his, and when refused due to the fact of it being so unethical, threaten with a report to the police. I wonder where is the wrong doing in that??

If the patient was unconscious, why was he described as screaming in pain when the thumb print was taken? You cannot blame the hospital for taking precautions to collect an unpaid debt. A thumbprint is non invasive.

And yes, there was someone there staying a few nights with him. Someone who had to ask for medicine on the last two days, ask for nurses to change bandages, and wait for all those to happen. On his last 24 hrs, only one pill was provided (when asked or begged for), one lousy painkiller. You would have wondered if his injuries required antibiotics to be continued. And to have private doctors tell you that he's well to be even discharged with no infections or no surgery required on his toes, and then immediately on transfer, govern doctor telling you that he needs surgery badly on his toes. And to have to watch nurses changing his bandages while he screams in pain, and to see his bandages stuck to his toe because the top part of pus had dried. How can they say that he doesn't have an infection when the wounds on his toes were greenish yellow??? How comfortable does it make you feel when you know that doctors only treat if their case has insurance or money in the pocket??

I have not seen the patient's file, so I cannot comment fully. What I do know is that if the surgery required is non life threatening, the private hospital is not required to perform surgery. It is normal to have bandages stick to wounds.The bluish green colour was most likely due to bruising. Had there been an infection at that early stage, the area most likely would have been inflamed and red. In respect to the "painkillers" , please understand that they will not necessarily be prescribed if there is head trauma. Unless one wants to put a patient into a coma to address a specific head injury, a physician tries to keep the patient as coherent as possible. Administration of a strong painkiller will produce drowsiness and a dulling of the senses that make it impossible to determine the progression of the head injury. Until you know otherwise, it is unfair to attribute the decision not to administer the pain medication to the payment situation. After all, if there was a need for the medication, the hospital would have asked the friends present if they would cover the cost of the pills that would have cost less than 1000b, even at the inflated hospital pharmacy prices.

Well, well.. it is practised in Malaysia that in accident cases, victims are sent directly to the GOVERNMENT hospital. And only when relatives are traced, then it is up to them to be transfered or upgraded. Public hospitals may be short handed but they do have the professional capabilities just like the private hospitals to treat. But what i have seen, they have even more dedication than the Private Hospitals in carrying out their duties. And my dear, of course, there are trauma specialists on hand, am sure they are even on call 24 7. But I guess, I am being ignorant in assuming... just as you are...

This is not Malaysia (which has problems in critical care delivery in its own regions as well.). Phuket has a staffing problem in its public hospitals. This is public knowledge. I have not assumed. It has been well reported on for the past year. Until recently, Patong General was unable to provide a doctor on staff 24hrs a day. The solution was to classify 2 interns as doctors. An intern is the last person one wants to administer emergency care to a head trauma admission. Patong General is a 60 bed hospital. It does not have the same facilities or equipment as BHP. Had your friend been admitted there instead of BHP he would most likely not have received the critical care he required. BHP has 2 neurologists on staff. I do not believe that PG has any.

are BUSINESS HOSPITALS. Yes, BPH no doubt has a reputable facility, but ask around, and you will know that they are only reputable if you have either insurance or money.

And your point is? This is how the medical care delivery system is structured. If we live in Thailand, we have to adapt to that system. Unless people want to pay large income taxes to the government to fund socialized medicine, then this is what it will be. The issue isn't whether or not private hospitals are better than public hospitals, but whether or not Patong General would have been the most appropriate hospital to send the patient. If the case was as serious as indicated, then it is probable that the patient would have died at Patong General, especially if he need to be intubated. An unsupervised intern should not intubate a patient. A nurse is not qualified to diagnose and treat a severe head injury.

Anyways, I have to emphasis, its not how it transpired that is important. But now what is important, is to help someone in need, maybe in this case, to donate some money or gifts. As all, we one day may need help, and who knows..a perfect stranger may end up helping us.

Absolutely.

However, BHP did nothing wrong. If you are seeking help, do it on the basis of the injury and on the merits of the individual, not on it being due to BHP's conduct. The hospital's physicians have provided strong assistance and support on several health projects on Phuket, none of which gets much public acknowledgement. They have also treated destitute cases ex gratia.

I am sorry if my position makes me unpopular in the forum. However, for those of us that deal with health care system personnel, it is extremely uncomfortable to watch good and decent people being blamed and disparaged for events that were not their doing. I have said my piece and hope that the thread just focuses on helping the injured person obtain the help he requires.

[kjbowman]

I am sorry if my position makes me unpopular in the forum. However, for those of us that deal with health care system personnel, it is extremely uncomfortable to watch good and decent people being blamed and disparaged for events that were not their doing. I have said my piece and hope that the thread just focuses on helping the injured person obtain the help he requires.

It was never my intention to attack the individuals who were charged with implementing policy. The intention was to draw attention to my friends traumatic experience and a heartless system.

We all felt sorry for the young lady who was given orders "from above" and had to communicate those orders to us. She was obviously traumatised by the experience also.

[OxfordWill]

There are some really cold hearts in this thread. I hope the guy gets well.

The issue for me is that BHP is being blamed for something it shouldn't be blamed for.

If the op wishes to object on moral grounds he is in good standing with the vast majority of the philosophical community agreeing with him.

Skimming through your arguments I note very quickly several schoolboy fallacies in the way you attempt to justify this (and in general, most) hospital's actions so please don't embarrass yourself any more or I will point them out one by one in great detail for everyone to see. Leave it for another less "real" discussion.

Edited March 1, 2009 by OxfordWill

[Kimera]

I am all for helping a hardluck case. However it should be stated as such. The fellow didn't wear a helmet properly, didn't take health insurance and didn't have sufficient funds available for an emergency. Is it possible you played up all the other details because a story that stuck only to the facts would not have elicited sympathy?

This sad story has some inconsistencies and that cause me to question some of your statements;

1. You state the incident attributable to" another bike carrying a lady and her two children pulled out into the main road without looking; he swerved to avoid them and crashed."

But then you state that he's had head trauma; "he still has no idea what happened."

If he had no idea what happened, how do we know this is what occurred? Were you present at the collision? If one of his friends was present to provide a reliable account, then why didn't that person direct where the patient should be taken?

2. You describe the injuries as follows; He suffered a variety of injuries including three broken toes, several deep gashes to his torso, arms and feet. His neck, shoulders and arms black with bruising. Most worryingly, he cracked his head on the tarmac causing a severe blood clot and brain swelling.

With the exception of the head trauma, these were not life threatening injuries within the context of a motorcycle collision. The head injury was sustained because the subject was not wearing his helmet properly. It's a lame excuse to say he was only wearing a helmet to avoid a fine. If he was back in his home country he would have been wearing his helmet properly. It was his decision not to wear his helmet, no one elses.

3. You state that BPH refused to let his friends check him out of their five star hotel/hospital and take him to a State run hospital who would have happily treated him.

Not necessarily. The state hospitals do not offer free medical care for foreigners. Although the fees and charges can be less than private facilities, they are not free to non residents.

To those that are commenting that the hospital denied care, read the statement again. The complaint is attributable to the hospital providing care.

Is it possible that the hospital said it would not process the discharge until an arrangement was made for payment for services rendered? There was no incentive for BPH to keep a patient on site, particulalry if the patient was destitute. When was the request for discharge made and when was the patient discharged? You are aware that a hospital is not supposed to discharge a patient until the attending physician signs off on the discharge papers. Even at a for profit hospital, the admin still follows the SOP of a hospital. Perhaps part of the delay was attributable to finding the physician so that the discharge could be processed. You don't really say how long the discharge took, but it was done with 24 hours of the request beiing made and the paperwork processed wasn't it?

4. You then state that He was finally released when, screaming in pain, his thumbprint was forced onto the invoice like a criminal. By the time he reached the State hospital he had an infection in his foot because of a dirty wound which had not been cleaned in two days.

Why would he be screaming in pain if the injuries were not to his thumb? The hospital had every right to ask for the thumbprint to document its file in respect to the monies owed. How do you know the wound had not been cleaned in 2 days? Were you monitoring the dressing changes? If there was a gash due to road impact, or perforation of the flesh when the toes were broken, then such an infection was to be expected. This is what often happens. How long did it take you to admit the patient into the new hospital?

5.Josh did not ask to be taken to this hospital and did not deserve this treatment; but here's the real question; did the "ambulance" driver who brought him there receive a commission? Why wasn't he taken to the State hospital which was actually nearer to where the accident happened?

The answer is that 99.9% of foreigners don't want to go to the local hospitals. They want the best quality available. The ambulance driver was acting based upon experience. Had he taken the patient to a public facility, the driver probably would have been criticized when the patient died in the ER. I'm sorry, but the trauma facilities are not the same at the public hospitals. Are you even aware that the public hospitals on Phuket have medical doctor shortages? It's been in the news for the past year. Do you think there would have been a trauma specialist or a neurologist at the local hospital when the patient arrived? I believe there would not have been.

6. At the end of the day, none of this matters. What matters is that we have a wonderful young man who needs to return to the loving embrace of his family and the British National Health Service.

Ok. Then let his loving family repatriate him. Oh, I know people will call me cold and callous. However, as a citizen of his country, he should be pleading his case to his national government and its NHS.

And to those that will rip into me for not being nice. Tough. I have paid for people that could not otherwise afford care. I know there are also many other people on TV that have done the same and done alot more than me. I state this because there is a difference between someone that could have taken precautions and those that truly are victims of fate. BPH is a reputable facility. To accuse the hospital of impropriety because the hospital followed SOP and kept the patient until he was deemed sufficient for discharge is unfair. We all know the healthcare situation in Thailand and should be responsible. Sooner or later we have to accept responsibility for our own decisions and actions.

Well wrote! having no insurance is the same as riding you motorcycle without a good helmet, its up to you, as the Thai's say, but when your head hits the ground!! you made the decision, and its good that he did not hit the Thai family or his troubles would have been doubled

[kjbowman]

I would like to also donate a two seater sea kayak with life jackets towards the raffle.

I will PM you a contact number to arrange delivery. Again sorry for my comments.

Syl.

Thankyou Syl. Good Man.

[LivinginKata]

Thankyou Syl. Good Man.

Syl won't be able to reply as he has joined the banned members group....

[pete600]

Thankyou Syl. Good Man.

Syl won't be able to reply as he has joined the banned members group....

Well there's a bit of good news

[yeastside]

i have to say i am well shocked at some of the replies on here. The guy made a mistake and is paying for it big time and I think the events and circumstances of the accident are of no importance at the moment but for him to have a speedy recovery.

I always wonder how old some people are on here and what their social class are as it just sounds like there is a big bunch young chavs here. Im 28 and would never ever think of posting some of the things people said and i dont think i would be far wrong that most TV posters are older than me so why all the immature replies?

[simpleserenity]

I just wonder whether some individuals in this thread are associated with the Hospital mentioned. To be honest, Geriatrickid, its obvious that you refuse to believe most things that are written on my previous post. Anyways, its fair that the Hospital has obviously done something to earn its reputable status. However, I've seen what I have seen, and have lost all trust with such a hospital. Am not saying that all individuals working for them are to blame, however, I am certain that they could have approached it or managed it in a different way instead of threatening in not patient-friendly way at certain points. In fact, come out and be honest with us that you won't be able to continue with treatment unless bills are paid or the patient needs to be transfered for the fact that the bill cant be paid. But not lie to us and say that oh, he's well enough to go home, or his wounds are not infected, and giving us a different perspective of his well being. Good and decent doctors do not lie about their patients condition no matter what the financial status is like.

Read my responses again. They have not been artifically re-stated for more symphaty. The facts are the facts. You know wounds are infected, esp when they were reconfimed with another nurse or doctor. Remember that a Public hospital scheduled for surgery within hours of his transfer from a Private hospital who said that he was fine.

Some things done by the Hospital cannot be justified to my eyes. Its just obvious that money is above life for them. Geriatrickid, you haven't read the facts properly or addressed my responses as they are. And I shouldn't be even bothered to reply, but I sincerely hope that you will not be caught in the same situation as this young man is ever, because then, you would have to believe in what I have stated or what Mr. Bowman has stated.

The World is at such a sad point that Capitalism takes the utmost importance form at the expense of Humanity. No money, no talk. I will be ashamed to be a doctor and to have to lie about a patients condition because he cannot afford the care, and because my hospital cannot afford to have a liability case on my hand if I were to tell the truth. And I certainly do not believe that just because the world gives it to you in that form, you would have to lie dead and do nothing about it. Unjust is slowly corrected by each person firmly believing and upholding what is just.

Anyways, thank you for at least pointing out that the importance is that he receives the help that is needed. Its good to see that at least some people on this thread still have a human side to them and is helpful towards the cause.

[kjbowman]

Dear geriatrickid, you are clearly an articulate and cogent individual but your lengthy tirade smacks of axe grinding. As you can see, I have taken the liberty of a little edit.

Please no more of these bitter and negative lectures. Reading your post used several minutes of my life that I will never be able to get back.

Meanwhile, maybe Mr Bowman will be able to provide some bank details so that donations can be made directly?

Good luck to Josh and thank you to all those understanding souls who have recognised that youth can be foolhardy and that the charity and support of strangers when tragedy strikes in a strange land is heartwarming and invaluable, you have helped to reverse a little of my cynicism.

Thankyou Xenophenes for understanding the purpose of this discussion.

We're not permitted to post bank details, and it was never our intention to beg for money.

We need prizes for Saturday night's raffle at O'Malley's in Phuket Town, and are relying on the continued generosity of the Expat community in Phuket.

If you own a business, please donate a prize.

If you know a kind-hearted business owner, send them this link.

If you don't have much money but fancy a beer and a game of pool, go to O'Malley's this week and 20% of what you spend will go towards helping our friend.

Thankyou again.

Edited March 2, 2009 by kjbowman

[Wellington]

I just wonder whether some individuals in this thread are associated with the Hospital mentioned. To be honest, Geriatrickid, its obvious that you refuse to believe most things that are written on my previous post. Anyways, its fair that the Hospital has obviously done something to earn its reputable status. However, I've seen what I have seen, and have lost all trust with such a hospital. Am not saying that all individuals working for them are to blame, however, I am certain that they could have approached it or managed it in a different way instead of threatening in not patient-friendly way at certain points. In fact, come out and be honest with us that you won't be able to continue with treatment unless bills are paid or the patient needs to be transfered for the fact that the bill cant be paid. But not lie to us and say that oh, he's well enough to go home, or his wounds are not infected, and giving us a different perspective of his well being. Good and decent doctors do not lie about their patients condition no matter what the financial status is like.

Read my responses again. They have not been artifically re-stated for more symphaty. The facts are the facts. You know wounds are infected, esp when they were reconfimed with another nurse or doctor. Remember that a Public hospital scheduled for surgery within hours of his transfer from a Private hospital who said that he was fine.

Some things done by the Hospital cannot be justified to my eyes. Its just obvious that money is above life for them. Geriatrickid, you haven't read the facts properly or addressed my responses as they are. And I shouldn't be even bothered to reply, but I sincerely hope that you will not be caught in the same situation as this young man is ever, because then, you would have to believe in what I have stated or what Mr. Bowman has stated.

The World is at such a sad point that Capitalism takes the utmost importance form at the expense of Humanity. No money, no talk. I will be ashamed to be a doctor and to have to lie about a patients condition because he cannot afford the care, and because my hospital cannot afford to have a liability case on my hand if I were to tell the truth. And I certainly do not believe that just because the world gives it to you in that form, you would have to lie dead and do nothing about it. Unjust is slowly corrected by each person firmly believing and upholding what is just.

Anyways, thank you for at least pointing out that the importance is that he receives the help that is needed. Its good to see that at least some people on this thread still have a human side to them and is helpful towards the cause.

"I just wonder whether some individuals in this thread are associated with the Hospital mentioned"

I wondered the same thing and PM'd Geriatric on those lines

and pointed out my own appalling experiences with the BP.

He has not replied.

Draw yr. own conclusions.

[lei13]

First of all, what a discussion, seem's all of you care about what as happened...

Seem's josh began a new voyage on feb 7th, one that many people will never understand, one that will test this young man's heart all his life..Part's of josh we may never see again, that's the reality of this situation, a traumatic experince for those close to him, a traumatic experience for josh...

Those who know josh knew that he is a great lad, a real good lad, the accident will never change this..

At the moment, his first priority is to get care, rehabilation, home, get him of this tiny rowing boat onto a big ship, where his journey will be safer and quicker...

There is a party at o'malley's on saturday the 7th of march, this weekend, this is my bar, all the proceed's will go to josh, that i promise, so if anyone fancies a night out on saturday then pop in..

thank's lei

[edwinclapham]

Responding to comments in bold made by Geriatrickid.

I am all for helping a hardluck case. However it should be stated as such. The fellow didn't wear a helmet properly, didn't take health insurance and didn't have sufficient funds available for an emergency. Is it possible you played up all the other details because a story that stuck only to the facts would not have elicited sympathy?

This sad story has some inconsistencies and that cause me to question some of your statements;

I just wonder how symphathetic the facts or story would have to be in order to elicit sympathy as you have put it. Would there be a need to say that the young man is totally disabled or still fighting for his life in order to get someone to listen to his story and to maybe feel for him? Yes, maybe he didn't wear a helmet properly, or didn't take health insurance and to make the matter worse, not have any funds...but isn't moving forward the right thing to focus on? Getting him proper treatment or raising funds for him to get back to his family who are anxious for his wellbeing. Come on, if he were a close friend of yours, or brother, or your nephew or grandchild, would you even pause to ask "didn't he have insurance? how did it happen?". Wouldn't the right question be, "How is he doing? How can we help?".

1. You state the incident attributable to" another bike carrying a lady and her two children pulled out into the main road without looking; he swerved to avoid them and crashed."

But then you state that he's had head trauma; "he still has no idea what happened."

If he had no idea what happened, how do we know this is what occurred? Were you present at the collision? If one of his friends was present to provide a reliable account, then why didn't that person direct where the patient should be taken?

As what was known, his friend was also injured and unconscious in the event and sent to the same hospital, but the lucky soul had money and still retained what's left of his memory other than the incident and even managed to check out the day after the incident. But the other young man wasn't so lucky, we were told that he came in unconscious and had to be assisted to breath using the respirators. His friends only managed to find him 3 days later by going to each hospital and asking for any John Doe. Imagine having to go back twice to the same hospital and only on the second time being able to find your injured friend.

2. You describe the injuries as follows; He suffered a variety of injuries including three broken toes, several deep gashes to his torso, arms and feet. His neck, shoulders and arms black with bruising. Most worryingly, he cracked his head on the tarmac causing a severe blood clot and brain swelling.

With the exception of the head trauma, these were not life threatening injuries within the context of a motorcycle collision. The head injury was sustained because the subject was not wearing his helmet properly. It's a lame excuse to say he was only wearing a helmet to avoid a fine. If he was back in his home country he would have been wearing his helmet properly. It was his decision not to wear his helmet, no one elses.

Yes, agreed, the other injuries are not life threatening. But u have to wonder if the blood clot in the brain would be life threatening. Sure, doctors do know everything about brain injuries. Again, I will refrain on commenting if he were wearing his helmet properly. For info, even if he were wearing his helmet properly, are you able to dictate what happens in an accident? An accident is an accident, and thankfully no life was lost. But his life will be affected for god knows how long.

3. You state that BPH refused to let his friends check him out of their five star hotel/hospital and take him to a State run hospital who would have happily treated him.

Not necessarily. The state hospitals do not offer free medical care for foreigners. Although the fees and charges can be less than private facilities, they are not free to non residents.

To those that are commenting that the hospital denied care, read the statement again. The complaint is attributable to the hospital providing care.

Yes, it isn't free. But it cost much much much less than what was charged by the private hospital, probably only 10%. Yes we know that private hospitals are a business but does life come first before money?

Is it possible that the hospital said it would not process the discharge until an arrangement was made for payment for services rendered? There was no incentive for BPH to keep a patient on site, particulalry if the patient was destitute. When was the request for discharge made and when was the patient discharged? You are aware that a hospital is not supposed to discharge a patient until the attending physician signs off on the discharge papers. Even at a for profit hospital, the admin still follows the SOP of a hospital. Perhaps part of the delay was attributable to finding the physician so that the discharge could be processed. You don't really say how long the discharge took, but it was done with 24 hours of the request beiing made and the paperwork processed wasn't it?

Well, hospitals are not suppose to discharge unless asked to? I also wonder at the same question. But are hospitals allowed to threaten to discharge when not asked to? And some SOP, they couldn't even trace a fax properly until they were asked to a second time.

4. You then state that He was finally released when, screaming in pain, his thumbprint was forced onto the invoice like a criminal. By the time he reached the State hospital he had an infection in his foot because of a dirty wound which had not been cleaned in two days.

Why would he be screaming in pain if the injuries were not to his thumb? The hospital had every right to ask for the thumbprint to document its file in respect to the monies owed. How do you know the wound had not been cleaned in 2 days? Were you monitoring the dressing changes? If there was a gash due to road impact, or perforation of the flesh when the toes were broken, then such an infection was to be expected. This is what often happens. How long did it take you to admit the patient into the new hospital?

And yes, I suppose its ethical to take the thumbprint of a man who is not fully conscious or able to reason for himself, and for some reason, to ask his friends to obtain the thumbprint of his, and when refused due to the fact of it being so unethical, threaten with a report to the police. I wonder where is the wrong doing in that?? Right, we would even agree that its reasonable for the hospital to get some sort of agreement on the payment. But how about sending the daily bill or any other papers to the family by fax and at least getting their agreement on what the poor young man was getting his thumbprint on? Am sure that sounds reasonable too, yes? It wasn't done, for info. They refused to send it before and only wanted to send it after his thumbprint was taken. Is that reasonable? Doesn't it make you wonder why?

And yes, there was someone there staying a few nights with him. Someone who had to ask for medicine on the last two days, ask for nurses to change bandages, and wait for all those to happen. On his last 24 hrs, only one pill was provided (when asked or begged for), one lousy painkiller. You would have wondered if his injuries required antibiotics to be continued. And to have private doctors tell you that he's well to be even discharged with no infections or no surgery required on his toes, and then immediately on transfer, govern doctor telling you that he needs surgery badly on his toes. And to have to watch nurses changing his bandages while he screams in pain, and to see his bandages stuck to his toe because the top part of pus had dried. How can they say that he doesn't have an infection when the wounds on his toes were greenish yellow??? How comfortable does it make you feel when you know that doctors only treat if their case has insurance or money in the pocket??

5.Josh did not ask to be taken to this hospital and did not deserve this treatment; but here's the real question; did the "ambulance" driver who brought him there receive a commission? Why wasn't he taken to the State hospital which was actually nearer to where the accident happened?

The answer is that 99.9% of foreigners don't want to go to the local hospitals. They want the best quality available. The ambulance driver was acting based upon experience. Had he taken the patient to a public facility, the driver probably would have been criticized when the patient died in the ER. I'm sorry, but the trauma facilities are not the same at the public hospitals. Are you even aware that the public hospitals on Phuket have medical doctor shortages? It's been in the news for the past year. Do you think there would have been a trauma specialist or a neurologist at the local hospital when the patient arrived? I believe there would not have been.

Well, well.. it is practised in Malaysia that in accident cases, victims are sent directly to the GOVERNMENT hospital. And only when relatives are traced, then it is up to them to be transfered or upgraded. Public hospitals may be short handed but they do have the professional capabilities just like the private hospitals to treat. But what i have seen, they have even more dedication than the Private Hospitals in carrying out their duties. And my dear, of course, there are trauma specialists on hand, am sure they are even on call 24 7. But I guess, I am being ignorant in assuming... just as you are...

6. At the end of the day, none of this matters. What matters is that we have a wonderful young man who needs to return to the loving embrace of his family and the British National Health Service.

Ok. Then let his loving family repatriate him. Oh, I know people will call me cold and callous. However, as a citizen of his country, he should be pleading his case to his national government and its NHS.

Yes, cold and callous. Its a pity because at some point in time, everyone needs help in whatever form, even those who have paid for insurance.

And to those that will rip into me for not being nice. Tough. I have paid for people that could not otherwise afford care. I know there are also many other people on TV that have done the same and done alot more than me. I state this because there is a difference between someone that could have taken precautions and those that truly are victims of fate. BPH is a reputable facility. To accuse the hospital of impropriety because the hospital followed SOP and kept the patient until he was deemed sufficient for discharge is unfair. We all know the healthcare situation in Thailand and should be responsible. Sooner or later we have to accept responsibility for our own decisions and actions.

Btw, am not ripping into you for not being nice. Am just ripping into you because you pay for insurance and seem ignorant enough to think that private hospitals are the best. Yes, maybe private hospitals has the professional skills to heal, or the fancy equipment, or the 5 star beds, but hey, shouldn't they have a conscience too? But then again, there's the sad fact. They are BUSINESS HOSPITALS. Yes, BPH no doubt has a reputable facility, but ask around, and you will know that they are only reputable if you have either insurance or money.

Anyways, I have to emphasis, its not how it transpired that is important. But now what is important, is to help someone in need, maybe in this case, to donate some money or gifts. As all, we one day may need help, and who knows..a perfect stranger may end up helping us.

Well written, , good to see one with a heart here, my sentiments entirely!

[Sir Burr]

Responding to comments in bold made by Geriatrickid.

I am all for helping a hardluck case. However it should be stated as such. The fellow didn't wear a helmet properly, didn't take health insurance and didn't have sufficient funds available for an emergency. Is it possible you played up all the other details because a story that stuck only to the facts would not have elicited sympathy?

This sad story has some inconsistencies and that cause me to question some of your statements;

I just wonder how symphathetic the facts or story would have to be in order to elicit sympathy as you have put it. Would there be a need to say that the young man is totally disabled or still fighting for his life in order to get someone to listen to his story and to maybe feel for him? Yes, maybe he didn't wear a helmet properly, or didn't take health insurance and to make the matter worse, not have any funds...but isn't moving forward the right thing to focus on? Getting him proper treatment or raising funds for him to get back to his family who are anxious for his wellbeing. Come on, if he were a close friend of yours, or brother, or your nephew or grandchild, would you even pause to ask "didn't he have insurance? how did it happen?". Wouldn't the right question be, "How is he doing? How can we help?".

1. You state the incident attributable to" another bike carrying a lady and her two children pulled out into the main road without looking; he swerved to avoid them and crashed."

But then you state that he's had head trauma; "he still has no idea what happened."

If he had no idea what happened, how do we know this is what occurred? Were you present at the collision? If one of his friends was present to provide a reliable account, then why didn't that person direct where the patient should be taken?

As what was known, his friend was also injured and unconscious in the event and sent to the same hospital, but the lucky soul had money and still retained what's left of his memory other than the incident and even managed to check out the day after the incident. But the other young man wasn't so lucky, we were told that he came in unconscious and had to be assisted to breath using the respirators. His friends only managed to find him 3 days later by going to each hospital and asking for any John Doe. Imagine having to go back twice to the same hospital and only on the second time being able to find your injured friend.

2. You describe the injuries as follows; He suffered a variety of injuries including three broken toes, several deep gashes to his torso, arms and feet. His neck, shoulders and arms black with bruising. Most worryingly, he cracked his head on the tarmac causing a severe blood clot and brain swelling.

With the exception of the head trauma, these were not life threatening injuries within the context of a motorcycle collision. The head injury was sustained because the subject was not wearing his helmet properly. It's a lame excuse to say he was only wearing a helmet to avoid a fine. If he was back in his home country he would have been wearing his helmet properly. It was his decision not to wear his helmet, no one elses.

Yes, agreed, the other injuries are not life threatening. But u have to wonder if the blood clot in the brain would be life threatening. Sure, doctors do know everything about brain injuries. Again, I will refrain on commenting if he were wearing his helmet properly. For info, even if he were wearing his helmet properly, are you able to dictate what happens in an accident? An accident is an accident, and thankfully no life was lost. But his life will be affected for god knows how long.

3. You state that BPH refused to let his friends check him out of their five star hotel/hospital and take him to a State run hospital who would have happily treated him.

Not necessarily. The state hospitals do not offer free medical care for foreigners. Although the fees and charges can be less than private facilities, they are not free to non residents.

To those that are commenting that the hospital denied care, read the statement again. The complaint is attributable to the hospital providing care.

Yes, it isn't free. But it cost much much much less than what was charged by the private hospital, probably only 10%. Yes we know that private hospitals are a business but does life come first before money?

Is it possible that the hospital said it would not process the discharge until an arrangement was made for payment for services rendered? There was no incentive for BPH to keep a patient on site, particulalry if the patient was destitute. When was the request for discharge made and when was the patient discharged? You are aware that a hospital is not supposed to discharge a patient until the attending physician signs off on the discharge papers. Even at a for profit hospital, the admin still follows the SOP of a hospital. Perhaps part of the delay was attributable to finding the physician so that the discharge could be processed. You don't really say how long the discharge took, but it was done with 24 hours of the request beiing made and the paperwork processed wasn't it?

Well, hospitals are not suppose to discharge unless asked to? I also wonder at the same question. But are hospitals allowed to threaten to discharge when not asked to? And some SOP, they couldn't even trace a fax properly until they were asked to a second time.

4. You then state that He was finally released when, screaming in pain, his thumbprint was forced onto the invoice like a criminal. By the time he reached the State hospital he had an infection in his foot because of a dirty wound which had not been cleaned in two days.

Why would he be screaming in pain if the injuries were not to his thumb? The hospital had every right to ask for the thumbprint to document its file in respect to the monies owed. How do you know the wound had not been cleaned in 2 days? Were you monitoring the dressing changes? If there was a gash due to road impact, or perforation of the flesh when the toes were broken, then such an infection was to be expected. This is what often happens. How long did it take you to admit the patient into the new hospital?

And yes, I suppose its ethical to take the thumbprint of a man who is not fully conscious or able to reason for himself, and for some reason, to ask his friends to obtain the thumbprint of his, and when refused due to the fact of it being so unethical, threaten with a report to the police. I wonder where is the wrong doing in that?? Right, we would even agree that its reasonable for the hospital to get some sort of agreement on the payment. But how about sending the daily bill or any other papers to the family by fax and at least getting their agreement on what the poor young man was getting his thumbprint on? Am sure that sounds reasonable too, yes? It wasn't done, for info. They refused to send it before and only wanted to send it after his thumbprint was taken. Is that reasonable? Doesn't it make you wonder why?

And yes, there was someone there staying a few nights with him. Someone who had to ask for medicine on the last two days, ask for nurses to change bandages, and wait for all those to happen. On his last 24 hrs, only one pill was provided (when asked or begged for), one lousy painkiller. You would have wondered if his injuries required antibiotics to be continued. And to have private doctors tell you that he's well to be even discharged with no infections or no surgery required on his toes, and then immediately on transfer, govern doctor telling you that he needs surgery badly on his toes. And to have to watch nurses changing his bandages while he screams in pain, and to see his bandages stuck to his toe because the top part of pus had dried. How can they say that he doesn't have an infection when the wounds on his toes were greenish yellow??? How comfortable does it make you feel when you know that doctors only treat if their case has insurance or money in the pocket??

5.Josh did not ask to be taken to this hospital and did not deserve this treatment; but here's the real question; did the "ambulance" driver who brought him there receive a commission? Why wasn't he taken to the State hospital which was actually nearer to where the accident happened?

The answer is that 99.9% of foreigners don't want to go to the local hospitals. They want the best quality available. The ambulance driver was acting based upon experience. Had he taken the patient to a public facility, the driver probably would have been criticized when the patient died in the ER. I'm sorry, but the trauma facilities are not the same at the public hospitals. Are you even aware that the public hospitals on Phuket have medical doctor shortages? It's been in the news for the past year. Do you think there would have been a trauma specialist or a neurologist at the local hospital when the patient arrived? I believe there would not have been.

Well, well.. it is practised in Malaysia that in accident cases, victims are sent directly to the GOVERNMENT hospital. And only when relatives are traced, then it is up to them to be transfered or upgraded. Public hospitals may be short handed but they do have the professional capabilities just like the private hospitals to treat. But what i have seen, they have even more dedication than the Private Hospitals in carrying out their duties. And my dear, of course, there are trauma specialists on hand, am sure they are even on call 24 7. But I guess, I am being ignorant in assuming... just as you are...

6. At the end of the day, none of this matters. What matters is that we have a wonderful young man who needs to return to the loving embrace of his family and the British National Health Service.

Ok. Then let his loving family repatriate him. Oh, I know people will call me cold and callous. However, as a citizen of his country, he should be pleading his case to his national government and its NHS.

Yes, cold and callous. Its a pity because at some point in time, everyone needs help in whatever form, even those who have paid for insurance.

And to those that will rip into me for not being nice. Tough. I have paid for people that could not otherwise afford care. I know there are also many other people on TV that have done the same and done alot more than me. I state this because there is a difference between someone that could have taken precautions and those that truly are victims of fate. BPH is a reputable facility. To accuse the hospital of impropriety because the hospital followed SOP and kept the patient until he was deemed sufficient for discharge is unfair. We all know the healthcare situation in Thailand and should be responsible. Sooner or later we have to accept responsibility for our own decisions and actions.

Btw, am not ripping into you for not being nice. Am just ripping into you because you pay for insurance and seem ignorant enough to think that private hospitals are the best. Yes, maybe private hospitals has the professional skills to heal, or the fancy equipment, or the 5 star beds, but hey, shouldn't they have a conscience too? But then again, there's the sad fact. They are BUSINESS HOSPITALS. Yes, BPH no doubt has a reputable facility, but ask around, and you will know that they are only reputable if you have either insurance or money.

Anyways, I have to emphasis, its not how it transpired that is important. But now what is important, is to help someone in need, maybe in this case, to donate some money or gifts. As all, we one day may need help, and who knows..a perfect stranger may end up helping us.

Well written, , good to see one with a heart here, my sentiments entirely!

I hate long quotes with just a one liner comment at the end. Irritating, isn't it?

[choppychugger]

How is the chap doing?

Are you anywhere near the target for donations?

Choppy

[wasabi]

I really think if he has serious brain trauma his only hope is to get him to Singapore or back to the west. I just don't think neurological care is up to 21st century standards here. good luck.

[Felt 35]

O'Malley's in Phuket Town, and are relying on the continued generosity of the Expat community in Phuket.

Is this the place near Senko bookstore!

Thanks.

[kjbowman]

How is the chap doing?

Are you anywhere near the target for donations?

Choppy

He's slowly getting better; months of recuperation will be required, preferably at home with his Mum.

We're not quite sure with the target; hopefully this weekend will get us there.

We'll update as we know. Thanks.

[kjbowman]

Edited March 3, 2009 by kjbowman

[kjbowman]

O'Malley's in Phuket Town, and are relying on the continued generosity of the Expat community in Phuket.

Is this the place near Senko bookstore!

Thanks.

Yes. On Montree Road.

All week at O'Malley's 20% of what you spend goes to helping our friend.

Saturday ALL profits go to the fund; live music from early 'til late, fun, games, raffles and prizes for all.

(NB. legal disclaimer; you're not guaranteed to win a prize!)

Edited March 3, 2009 by kjbowman