Canadian Condo Owner Claims False Arrest

[george]

Canadian condo owner claims false arrest

PHUKET CITY: -- A Canadian man who has lived in Phuket for over a decade has been arrested for working illegally in Thailand, a charge he claims stems from a dispute over maintenance fees with the owner of a condominium complex in which he owns five units.

Phuket Immigration Police led by Investigations Inspector Suparerk Pankosol yesterday arrested James Nixon, 49, at his condominium at the Blue Canyon Country Club in Mai Khao.

Taken to Tah Chat Chai Police Station for questioning, Mr Nixon was held at the station from 1pm until 6:30pm.

Accompanied by his lawyer, Mr Nixon spent much of his time inside a jail cell until his lawyer posted a condominium chanode title deed as police bail.

Speaking to the Gazette from inside the jail cell, Mr Nixon explained that he started spending winters in Thailand about 20 years ago to escape the Canadian climate and now owns five units at Blue Canyon.

He told the Gazette that he was not working in Phuket, but had merely been elected by fellow condo owners as their “juristic person” representative at an annual meeting, as required by the Thai Condominium Act.

Serving as a condo owners’ representative is an unpaid position and does not constitute work, he maintains.

There are many foreigners on the island in similar positions, and none have ever been accused of working here illegally, he said.

Mr Nixon concedes that Thai labor law as it applies to foreigners is vague about what actually constitutes “work”, but he feels the law is being selectively enforced in his case at the behest of the condo management, with whom he has had a disagreement about management fees.

Phuket Immigration admitted to arresting Mr Nixon, but said they could not give more details about the case until Lt Col Suparerk returns from a seminar in Bangkok.

This morning Mr Nixon spent all morning in a holding room at Phuket Provincial Court. He was finally allowed to leave at about 5pm after he was formally charged for working without a work permit and his lawyer posted bail.

“Does the local government really want to ask us to keep investing in properties and not allow us to sit on management committees? There is something funny about this,” he said.

-- Phuket Gazette 2009-03-24

[taxexile]

he was formally charged for working without a work permit

as a member of our condominium committee i find this a little disturbing.

i'm sure there are other thaivisa members who serve on condo committees.

would it be possible to have some clarification from one of the law firms sponsoring thaivisa as to whether committee membership constitutes work and whether we are breaking the law?

[Pdaz]

Another nail in the coffin of foreign ownership.. Hope this gets the press coverage it deserves.. About time the ridiculous backward legislation in Thailand was amended.. 'Working' should mean exactly that and nothing else.

[thaiwanderer]

He told the Gazette that he was not working in Phuket, but had merely been elected by fellow condo owners as their "juristic person" representative at an annual meeting, as required by the Thai Condominium Act.

Serving as a condo owners' representative is an unpaid position and does not constitute work, he maintains.

it is work but if he maintains it isn't then thats okay then

There are many foreigners on the island in similar positions, and none have ever been accused of working here illegally, he said.

great defence

Mr Nixon concedes that Thai labor law as it applies to foreigners is vague about what actually constitutes "work", but he feels the law is being selectively enforced in his case at the behest of the condo management, with whom he has had a disagreement about management fees.

oh the penny drops - it might constitute work afterall

selective enforcement of laws arising from a disagreement - i don't belive it

"Does the local government really want to ask us to keep investing in properties and not allow us to sit on management committees? There is something funny about this," he said.

i am suprised he is surprised after his decade in the country and decade of visits beforehand

5 condos - there might have been a bit of work there also even before being elected and i hope his tax is in order

(have we had the 'another nail' comment yet - oh yes already there)

[thaiwanderer]

can we change the title of the thread?

'Canadian arrested - blames police, condo owner, government, vague legislation, selective enforcement etc.'

[loong]

If true, what next?

Can we get arrested for making a cup of coffee or washing dishes?

[LivinLOS]

Thats it.. Not getting my own coffee anymore..

The way the Thai labor law is written its illegal to wash my car, to change the TV channel, to flush my toilet. In any sane country a law like this would have been challenged and defined.

I mean for a start the definition of the word, contains the word its defining.. it requires a seriously sub level IQ to make that a legal statute.

[harrry]

Thats it.. Not getting my own coffee anymore..

The way the Thai labor law is written its illegal to wash my car, to change the TV channel, to flush my toilet. In any sane country a law like this would have been challenged and defined.

I mean for a start the definition of the word, contains the word its defining.. it requires a seriously sub level IQ to make that a legal statute.

Can any of the Thai experts tell us if the Thai law actually is the same as the translation that is used in defining the term work.

[imaneggspurt]

Perhaps they consider the rents from his condos as earnings and as such hes working ?. the thais will change/use laws to suit,

[Guderian]

he was formally charged for working without a work permit

as a member of our condominium committee i find this a little disturbing.

i'm sure there are other thaivisa members who serve on condo committees.

would it be possible to have some clarification from one of the law firms sponsoring thaivisa as to whether committee membership constitutes work and whether we are breaking the law?

You may remember, after the 2004 tsunami, the Thai authorities insisted that unpaid volunteers from outside the country trying to help the victims would actually be 'working' here, and that they must have work permits or else return home. An unpaid representative on a condo committee sounds fairly similar to me.

I should have thought, though, that the real prize for the authorities would be to find that he had been conducting a property rental business without the appropriate company structure, visa, WP's, tax payments, etc., etc. Lots of money to be made from that one I suspect, compared with finding him guilty of some unpaid voluntary work.

[geriatrickid]

I don't think sitting on the mgmt board in an unpaid capacity can be termed work within the context of the law. He was after all over seeing his investment and ensuring that he and other condo owners were able to hire Thais to do the management. If he is accused of working, then the person that oversees his/her domestic staff is working when he does their pay and hiring. The management board serves to provide a voice to the unit owners. What the aggrieved management company has done is say F you to the owners and most likely set out charging fees that cannot be challenged. With reports like this, I can't believe people still insist on buying condo units.

[dotcom]

He told the Gazette that he was not working in Phuket, but had merely been elected by fellow condo owners as their “juristic person” representative at an annual meeting, as required by the Thai Condominium Act.

Mr Nixon concedes that Thai labor law as it applies to foreigners is vague about what actually constitutes “work”, but he feels the law is being selectively enforced in his case at the behest of the condo management, with whom he has had a disagreement about management fees.

This makes no sense. One minute he is the juristic person, the next he is has quarrels with "management".

[MJo]

I don't think sitting on the mgmt board in an unpaid capacity can be termed work within the context of the law. He was after all over seeing his investment and ensuring that he and other condo owners were able to hire Thais to do the management. If he is accused of working, then the person that oversees his/her domestic staff is working when he does their pay and hiring. The management board serves to provide a voice to the unit owners. What the aggrieved management company has done is say F you to the owners and most likely set out charging fees that cannot be challenged. With reports like this, I can't believe people still insist on buying condo units.

Can you sit in normal thai company board as board member without work permit, even if you are not getting paid for it ?

I always thought that to work, even without pay you need a work permit. Like in the case of farang husbands helping out in their wife's business. Or doing volunteer work like teaching.

Anyways grey area here and totally insane to ban foreign owners to participate but TIT and propably they will find him working without work permit etc etc. Especially if he has not been paying his taxes on the rental income.

[MeetJohnDoe]

That Blue Canyon development in Phuket has been emeshed in controversy for the past decade. Don't know why anyone would get himself involved in that mess by buying multiple units there. There are regular notices in the English language press about contested ownership claims to the entire development!

As to "working" on a condo's management board...this really needs to be clarified if it is not already clear in Thai law. If they allow up to 49% ownership of a condo to foreigners, these owners need to have the right to serve on the management committees. As a homeowner, there is also the question of repairs and improvements around my house...stuff like painting...is it considered "work" if I do it myself?

[grantbkk]

Thats it.. Not getting my own coffee anymore..

The way the Thai labor law is written its illegal to wash my car, to change the TV channel, to flush my toilet. In any sane country a law like this would have been challenged and defined.

I mean for a start the definition of the word, contains the word its defining.. it requires a seriously sub level IQ to make that a legal statute.

I'm here on a retirement visa so I have a maid and a girlfriend to do all the "work". So far my plan has worked and I have not been arrested.

TIT. I too hope this guy is paying his taxes. If the Thais target you they will get you. What's next?

[gottheteeshirt]

Foriegn footballers in the UK must have a work permit! Is football 'work'? Work permit laws are the same all over the world.

[harrry]

Wish a few Kareoke singers would get the same treatment,,,,after all singing is work.

[taxexile]

What the aggrieved management company has done is say F you to the owners and most likely set out charging fees that cannot be challenged. With reports like this, I can't believe people still insist on buying condo units.

the management company are contracted by the condo to look after the condo.

the condo committee decide things ( including maintenance fees) in consultation with the management company , the management company dont decide anything without agreement from the committee first.

it sounds like the owner of the condo ( the person who actually owned the land and built the condo) is in some way involved in the management , which could be illegal in itself depending on how it has been set up , according to the latest updates to the condominium act , and the committee are challenging his authority to set fees , resulting in this retaliation by the owner on the committees weakest link , i.e. the foreigner.

i know of some condos that are not run according to the latest condominium act and when the owners are challenged by the committees all h3ll can break lose as the owner stands to lose control of the running , especially when the accounts are closely scrutinized.

there is an awful lot of politicking and ego flouting on these committees.

[patklang]

He will be in more trouble if he has been renting out the 5 condos and not paying tax,and this will be classed as a business so big problems.I was going to buy a few condos but decided against it due to work permit rules.

I also heard about a guy in Pataya who was painting the exterior of his 1 story house when a copper stopped and asked if he had a work permit as he was taking business off a thai.When he said he didnt the copper told him to stop work and get a thai person and pay him.

[stevenl]

I should have thought, though, that the real prize for the authorities would be to find that he had been conducting a property rental business without the appropriate company structure, visa, WP's, tax payments, etc., etc. Lots of money to be made from that one I suspect, compared with finding him guilty of some unpaid voluntary work.

You may be on to something here, unless he does not rent the condo's out himself but has an agency take care of that.

Since it sounds like the owner/management company of the condos reported him to the police, I would presume that if he was renting the condos out without proper paperwork they would also know about that and report him for that as well, not just the work permit.

[imaneggspurt]

I always remember the man in the labour exchange in the uk asking me " have you done any work since you last signed on ",. it made no difference if you receive wages or not, its that question, have you worked ?. im sure painting your own house will ( at least in thailand ) be considered working and hence a no no,.

[MJo]

Foriegn footballers in the UK must have a work permit! Is football 'work'? Work permit laws are the same all over the world.

Well you sign a contract and you get paid £500K per week salary for it so i would say it is a job...

[Gary A]

I think you'll find that the laws are specifically written so that they can be selectively enforced. I don't think it is an accident that the law is vague.

If you refuse to keep a low profile and offend the wrong person you ARE going to be guilty of something.

[Lost in LOS]

work can be taken many ways

i drive my friend somewhere in my car.. no taxi license

I open the door to a guest to enter my house ... no butler license

I have sex with myself and haven't hired a lady no ?????? license

we can go on and maybe ridiculous but where is the real rule. someone on a committee, unpaid, protecting their investment in Thailand oh my, if they really want tourists and investors as they claim they had best stop this bull and get foreign friendly

[neverdie]

I always thought you could do stuff around your own home without any problems....for example working in the garden or painting something. Am I wrong?

The other day I was shoveling some stuff around the yard and the BIB cruised by, stopped & chatted with me.....they didnt say anything but were rather amused that a farang knew how to use a shovel....they told me they thought that back in my home country that I would of had thai people digging holes for me ....they were highly amused when I told them that in farangland we actually build our own houses, paint, work in the garden, clean etc.

To make matters worse, I'm not actually living in the house yet because we are making renovations etc before moving in.

Is someone suggesting they might come back and arrest me for what I was doing ....you've got to be joking, right?

I also clean my motorcycle regularly, clean the house....as I am sure most people do?? Whats the go?

[LivinLOS]

Foriegn footballers in the UK must have a work permit! Is football 'work'? Work permit laws are the same all over the world.

Erm I think you missed something.. 'Professional' footballers of course would need a work permit, goes without saying.. But a footballer who does this without pay or renumeration ?? I dont think they need any work permit !!

Its not the same the world over.. Most of the world has laws that have a tiny amount of sense to them. If they are nonsensical they get challenged in a court and eventually the high courts, case law gets defined, the grey areas get removed. Thailand however likes grey areas, it allows people with money to break the laws with impunity by paying the police and the police like it as it pays thier wages. Hence there is no incentive for either the rich, or the powers in control, to change it. The loser is of course the majority of 'little people' without the money or clout to use corruption to their advantage.

[MeetJohnDoe]

I think you'll find that the laws are specifically written so that they can be selectively enforced. I don't think it is an accident that the law is vague.

If you refuse to keep a low profile and offend the wrong person you ARE going to be guilty of something.

Probably the best summation of this matter.

[neverdie]

Just read this line on the Department of Employment, Thailand site:-

1. Definition

“Alien” means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality;

“ Work ” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

[LivinLOS]

Another issue thats being brought up as a sideline.. The rental tax payments.

How many times do Thai property buyers try to justify the rents they attain, and how many of them acually deduct and pay the taxes to be 100% legal in doing so. Very few in my experience.

[yumidesign]

I think you'll find that the laws are specifically written so that they can be selectively enforced. I don't think it is an accident that the law is vague.

If you refuse to keep a low profile and offend the wrong person you ARE going to be guilty of something.

in a nutshell ....... you go into the jungle monkey will piss on you!