Wife Dies

[lincdales]

As I understand it a foreigner cannot own land or house, so property in wife's name. I also understand that, in the event of a divorce, all assets are split 50/50 ( In theory).

However, if wife dies before farang husband, who owns house and land, assuming no children?

[Crossy]

As I understand it a foreigner cannot own land or house, so property in wife's name. I also understand that, in the event of a divorce, all assets are split 50/50 ( In theory).

However, if wife dies before farang husband, who owns house and land, assuming no children?

The property is divided amongst the wifes family (not including the foreigner) UNLESS the Missus has made a will.

She CAN leave the land to you provided it's less than 1 Rai, you then have 12 months to sell it or you can apply to the government (not sure which department) to be allowed to keep it. Apparently this does actually happen too

Edited April 1, 2009 by Crossy

[chiangmaibruce]

The property is divided amongst the wifes family (not including the foreigner) UNLESS the Missus has made a will.

She CAN leave the land to you provided it's less than 1 Rai, you then have 12 months to sell it or you can apply to the government (not sure which department) to be allowed to keep it. Apparently this does actually happen too

Suggest that you google on "thailand making a Will" or similar to find some good articles in the web sites of thai law firms

Based on my research I beg to differ with the advice provided:

1. Even with no Will the foreigner spouse will get a share of the property (or all of it IF the wife has no family)

2. Application needs to be made for Ministerial approval (for the foreign spouse) to retain the land, and references I have found cannot identify ANY cases where that has occurred

If others can provide URL's for definitive sources that state otherwise, I would appreciate hearing about them

[Crossy]

If others can provide URL's for definitive sources that state otherwise, I would appreciate hearing about them

There is a TV member who has personal experience of these cases. Unfortunately I don't remember who, and can't find the thread (senility is setting in)

Hopefully he'll pop up here

[stgrhe]

As I understand it a foreigner cannot own land or house, so property in wife's name. I also understand that, in the event of a divorce, all assets are split 50/50 ( In theory).

However, if wife dies before farang husband, who owns house and land, assuming no children?

The governing act for this is the Civil & Commercial Code and as others have stated your wife can will the land to you provided the land is maximum 1 rai. Each case is different but lets assume the following scenarios:

1. Your wife owned the land and the house before you got married.

This property is then actually Sin Suan Tua, which means you have absolutely no rights to the property but it can still be inherited.

2. Your wife owned the land before you got married and a house was built on that land in your name after marriage.

The land will still be Sin Suan Tua but the house will be regarded as Sin Somros (common property), which means that you, without a will, will inherige half of the house's value while the other relatives of hers will get the remining 50%. But everything can still be willed to you.

3. Your wife buys the land after you got married.

This property is then also Sin Suan Tua (because we cannot own land in Thailand) whether or not the no-claim form has been signed or not, which means you have absolutely no rights to the property but it can still be inherited.

4. Your wife buys the land after you got married and a house was built on that land in your name.

The land will also in this case still be Sin Suan Tua but the house will be regarded as Sin Somros (common property), which means that you, without a will, will only inherige half of the house's value while the other relatives of hers will get the remining 50%. But everything can still be willed to you by your wife.

[dave111223]

What happens if you haven't sold the land/house after 12 months (supposing the house was willed to you by your wife, and there are no relatives in the picture?)

Edited April 5, 2009 by dave111223

[patklang]

Get a will quick,as this is the only safe way to make certain you get the house,provided it was your money.Look around for a lawyer who will do a will,as i got mine and gf will for 10,000 baht including a lifetime partnership agreement,as i am not married,but live together for 4 years.

[nam-thip]

I found this article amongst my saved items which might be of help.

It's not from my own personal experience its just some information i decided to save for reference.

Thailand - Real Estate - housing - house and land ownership _ Registered An Usufruct

Last week I went to the land office and enquired about the possibility of having a usufruct contract made between me and my wife with regards to a property we have recently built. At first the gentleman we spoke with was unsure of how to help us, my wife then mentioned the Thai name for this process; sit-ti-gep-gin

sit-ti-gep-gin. สิทธิเก็บกิน

Pronounced as "sit-tid-kep-kin"

Literally it means "the right to reap the benefits" of the land e.g. to harvest or pick fruits of the orchards or the right to inhabit on the land.

We made the relevant photo copies (passport, ID, marriage, tabien ban and letter of permission to build a house on the land). The contract used was a standard document which allows me to stay in the house rent free until I die. It turns out that I was the first foreigner to ask for this to be done at their office and because of this they had to check the manuals of how to put this together and the paper work needed.

Now whether this standard contract is as full proof as one a lawyer may have drafted I don't know, but after researching this matter and thinking of my own requirements I decided following this process was the best option for me.

My wife and I have been married for 10 years and I have no reason to believe that she would ever be unfair with me if we were to split. All I wanted was something legal and official done with her approval so she would understand/think that I have rights on the property also. Knowing her, if we did split she would never question this document let alone hire a lawyer to do it for her.

You may ask why did you bother going through this process if you trust her and have no reason to doubt her future fairness.

Well the whole process at the land office took just over an hour to sort and cost me 75 baht.

I had quotes from several lawyers ranging from around 10,000 for a contract drawn up and telephone support to 70,000 for a lawyer to come with me and do the process for me. Like I said before I'm sure these contracts may have had more clauses etc, but in my situation the do-it yourself-option was the best solution.

I would encourage others who are thinking about getting an usufruct to inquire about this same process and save a few baht. If you do want other clauses added have them prepared ahead of

time and expect the process to take a bit longer.

Try this link for latest information on usufructs

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/

[stgrhe]

What happens if you haven't sold the land/house after 12 months (supposing the house was willed to you by your wife, and there are no relatives in the picture?)

If you have had a usufruct registered you would still be able to to live on the land and use it as if it was yours even if you were to give the land to another Thai. A usufruct can be registered for life, i.e. as long as you live, or a time not exceeding thirty years.

THAI CIVIL AND COMMERCIAL CODE

TITLE VII - USUFRUCT

Section 1417 - An immovable property may be subject to a usufruct by virtue of which the usufructuary is entitled to the possession, use and enjoyment of the property.

He has the right of management of the property.

The usufruct of a forest, mine or quarry entitles the usufructuary to the exploitation of the forest, mine or quarry.

Section 1418 – A usufruct may be created either for a period of time or for life of the usufructuary.

If no time has been fixed, it is presumed that the usufruct is for the life of the usufructuary. If it is created for a period of time, the provisions of Section 1403 paragraph 3 *) shall apply mutatis mutandis.

In any case the usufruct comes to an end on the death of the usufructuary.

*) Section 1403, paragraph 3 wording: "If it is granted for a period of time, the period may not exceed thirty years; if a longer period is stipulated, it shall be reduced to thirty years. The grant may be renewed for a period not exceeding thirty years from the time of renewal."

Section 1419 – If property is destroyed without compensation being paid, the owner is not bound to restore it; but if he does so to an extent, the usufruct revives to that extent.

If any compensation is paid, the owner of the usufructuary must restore the property so far as it is possible to do so, having regard to the amount of the compensation received, and the usufruct revives to that extent; but, if restoration is impossible, the usufruct comes to an end and the compensation must be divided between the owner and the usufructuary in proportion to the damages suffered by them respectively.

The same rules apply mutatis mutandis in case of expropriation as well as in the case partial destruction of the property or of partial impossibility to restore the property.

Section 1420 – When usufruct comes to an end, the usufructuary must return the property to the owner.

The usufructuary is liable for the destruction of depreciation in value of the property, unless he proves that the damage was not caused by his fault. He must replace anything which he has wrongfully consumed.

He is not bound to give compensation for depreciation in value caused by reasonable use.

Section 1421 – The usufructuary must, in the exercise of his rights, take as much care of the property as a person of ordinary prudence would take of his own property.

Section 1422 – Unless otherwise provided in the act creating a usufruct, the usufructuary may transfer the exercise of his right to a third person. In such case the owner of the property may sue the transferee direct.

Section 1423 – The owner may object to any unlawful or unreasonable use of the property.

If the owner proves that his rights are in peril, he may demand security from the usufructuary, except in the case of a donor who has reserved to himself the usufruct of the property given.

If the usufructuary fails to give security within a reasonable time fixed for the purpose, or if, in the spirit of the objection, he continues to make use of the property unlawfully or unreasonably, the Court may appoint a Receiver to manage the property in his stead. Upon security being given the Court may release the Receiver so appointed.

Section 1424 – The usufructuary is bound to keep the substance of the property unaltered, and is responsible for ordinary maintenance and petty repairs.

If important repairs of measures are necessary for the preservation of the property, the usufructuary must forthwith inform the owner thereof and permit them to be carried out. In case of default by the owner, the usufructuary may have the work carried out at the owner's expense.

Section 1425 – All extraordinary expenses must be borne by the owner, but in order to meet these expenses coming under the foregoing section he may realise part of the property unless the usufructuary is willing to advance the necessary funds without charging interest.

Section 1426 – The usufructuary shall, for the duration of the usufruct, bear expenses for the management of the property, pay taxes and duties, and be responsible for interests payable on depts. Charged upon it.

Section 1427 – If required by the owner, the usufructuary is bound to insure the property against loss for the benefit of the owner; and if the property is already insured he is bound to renew such insurance when due.

He must pay premiums of the insurance for the duration of his usufruct.

Section 1428 – No action by the owner against the usufructuary or his transferee in connection with the usufruct or vice versa may be entered later than one year after the usufruct comes to an end. But in an action by the owner who could not have known of the end of the usufruct, the prescription of the year shall run from the time when he knew or ought to have known of it.

Definition:

1. mutatis mutandis – "Due alteration, or changing whatever is required to be changed. As in, "The changes proposed for the first contract apply mutatis mutandis to all other contracts." Latin for, things being changed that ought to be changed".

Edited: The law text added to the post

Edited April 6, 2009 by stgrhe

[lincdales]

Thank you.

It seems to me the only way to go is to arrange for a will to be made up.

Unfortunately there does not appear to be an english speaking lawyer here in Uttaradit. We tried one who was a friend of a friend of my wife, and arranged for an english speaking school teacher to interpret our requirements. The total price quoted for the two wills was 20,000baht. It didn't work out, the lawyer even said that, if wife dies before me, I would get the house in it's entirety automatically. ( I lost confidence in him at that point)

Has anyone had any experience with the on-line lawyer advertising on this forum?

[lincdales]

I used the on line lawyer and his charges were 7200 to prepare the two wills. The work was carried out with great efficiency and the wills seem to be watertight.

I recommend

[weescotsguy66]

I used the on line lawyer and his charges were 7200 to prepare the two wills. The work was carried out with great efficiency and the wills seem to be watertight.

I recommend

Who is the online lawyer here?

I stay in Prathum Thani any recommendations?

[Emeritus]

There is also this other topic on inheritance from Thai wife:

Death Of Ones Thai Wife In Thailand?, What are the legal consequences for a Farang? at this URL: www.thaivisa.com/forum/Death-Thai-Wife-Thailand-t152776.html

[Emeritus]

The link I have given above includes the following post:

Source: http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/Publicati..._foreigners.pdf

If there is no will, statutory heirs will inherit in the following order:

• children, parents and spouse of the deceased – equal shares.

• parents and spouse of the deceased – spouse receives half.

• full brothers, full sisters – spouse of the deceased receives half.

• half-brothers, half-sisters – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• grandfathers, grandmothers – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• uncles, aunts – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• none of the above – spouse of the deceased receives all.

If an heir in a higher order exists, heirs in the lower orders have no rights at a

The situation where the Thai wife's the foreign husband and Thai (dual nationality) children survive but no parent is not mentioned. Does the husband receive half and the children share the other half among them?

[BigSnake]

Thank you.

It seems to me the only way to go is to arrange for a will to be made up.

Unfortunately there does not appear to be an english speaking lawyer here in Uttaradit. We tried one who was a friend of a friend of my wife, and arranged for an english speaking school teacher to interpret our requirements. The total price quoted for the two wills was 20,000baht. It didn't work out, the lawyer even said that, if wife dies before me, I would get the house in it's entirety automatically. ( I lost confidence in him at that point)

Has anyone had any experience with the on-line lawyer advertising on this forum?

Do the WILL now(ASAP) never know when check out time will be.

[lincdales]

I used the on line lawyer and his charges were 7200 to prepare the two wills. The work was carried out with great efficiency and the wills seem to be watertight.

I recommend

Who is the online lawyer here?

I stay in Prathum Thani any recommendations?

Siam Expat Law in Phuket

E-mail [email protected]

All done via post and e-mail. Experienced no problem with language barrier

[Old Man River]

If others can provide URL's for definitive sources that state otherwise, I would appreciate hearing about them

There is a TV member who has personal experience of these cases. Unfortunately I don't remember who, and can't find the thread (senility is setting in)

Hopefully he'll pop up here

I have no personal experience on this, but I have checked into it. I had a high priced Thai attorney in Bangkok call the Land department and talk to the Competent Authority about it. They told the attorney that they have ruled in foreigners' favor on this in the past. However, from what I can tell, this has never been confirmed and I suspect that no foreigner will ever admit to this as it is always better to let sleeping dogs lie.

For me, since it can't be confirmed until it happens, better to also have a lease on the land or some other similar arrangement.