They told me exactly what they think!

[pantarei]

taxexile Posted on Sep. 14 2003,15:40

panterei said

"Are American multinationals the only ones that do not play fair?  Gimme a break"

they are probably not the only ones that are inconsiderate to the host culture but because there are so many more american companies than those of other western countries then they will have to bear the brunt of the criticism,it comes with the territory of being Mr. Big.

and ,yes,i'm sure that there are some companies that fare better than others and forge fine and honourable relationships with their hosts.

Agree.  Come to think about it, I too am a believer in noblesse oblige.

But since the thread deals with LOS, I wonder if there are many more American companies than those of other countries IN THAILAND?

Also, people who are treated unfairly by American companies should quit and work for non-American companies.  If you saw my resume, you would agree that I made a major effort to find "better" companies.  In fact, I quit a job with a US multi, moved back to Europe, joined an European multi, and lasted there only one year (it always was my choice).

 

pantetei also said

.  "What I have not heard is a rational, well-documented explanation of the “Americanization” phenomenon.  I look forward to seeing such an explanation."

i cannot explain it either ,but it would make for a good thread on this forum.the american marketing industry has the enviable quality of being able to flood the world with the biggest junk and convince us all that it is highly desirable produce.they appeal to our dreams,unfortunately reality is very different.a combination of unbridled confidence,a not inconsiderable amount of bullying and some over the top dentistry probably has something to do with this ability.

(i) sorry, what does “over the top dentistry” mean?  I hope MacDonald’s doesn’t force me to have a root canal treatment if I do not buy a Big Mac every day.  (ii) Re. America marketing.  Well, I boycott heavily marketed products for two reasons: (a) I do not care for pushy salesmen(ship); (2) I believe that companies that spend a lot on advertising are likely to produce shoddy products to compensate for outrageous promotional expenses.  Case in point: years ago the heavily advertized “Mr Coffee” coffee maker was a best-seller.  “Consumer reports” tests ranked it as the worst buy among coffee makers tested.  I certainly am never going to buy Nike stuff because in addition to abusing their employees in third world countries they pay top athletes up for 50 million $ (maybe more) for being their barkers.  Fortunately, there are lots of choices in the free enterprise system, so it really is UP TO THE BUYER.  

panterei also claimed,

(ii) there are a lot more European than American “sex tourists” in LOS.

have you been out counting them then?

the americans can i'm sure be found satisfying their baser needs in central america or rio.why should they travel half way around the world to get it when its right on the doorstep ! and they can pay in dollars and chewing gum !

I used the same reasoning as you did. There is Coasta Rica, Brazil, and places right across the border from El Paso and San Diego (Tijuana and ??).

Do you have statistical data on the ratio of "ugly Americans" to "nice guy/gal" Americans?

 

and they can pay in dollars and chewing gum !

Honestly, I am disappointed.  You, obviously, are an intelligent, well-informed, well-educated, and rational person.  I apologize if I misinterpreted your comment, but…  The comment (i) suggests an irrational anti-American bias; perfectlyrational people often have a blind spot or two..  (ii) as a matter of fact the $ is not the currency in Brazil, Mexico (and you know it).  If one gives a $100 bill to a Brazilian, Mexican, etc prostitute she will gladly accept it – as will a BG in BKK.  

I live in the US.  I cannot recall the last time I saw ANYBODY chew gum in public.

Finally, some comments on the main topic of this thread.  I spent the early part of my life in a poor European country.  The rather infrequent tourists (including sex tourists) and foreign students who were vulgar, and flashing $$ were intensely despised (all non-Americans).  I am fairly well familiar with the “poor but proud” syndrome.  Treating people the way one wants to be treated goes a long way everywhere.  

[Khun ?]

what a bunch of crap. One thing that should be put straight

no matter where you are from you will never be thai no matter how well you speak the lingo nor how many children

you produce in thailand. The best thing that maybe should of

took place is asia should all be Japan or China and all Europe

should be German and Americas might be the same as today. At least this way these simple minds would be controled by dictators. Never was the U.S. unwelcome in Udon/Ubon nor are they considered that way today because of joint military actions earlier.  

This at the time may have been the largest ever introdution to the advanced western world. There must of been something good about it because since this time Thailand has taken the fast track to being like it and most thais that can, try to get their education in such places.

One thing that may be of interest is to look at the size of each farang country population and how many from each country is there in Thailand. Smaller populations with a larger population in Thailand tells you something about that country in itself. People are leaving it more than other places, Why?

Blaming your miserable farang heritage on something or someone else is kind of human nature. One thing straight out

in the face of it all is look at the age of relationships of these people that need to use such lame excuses to justify the prejudice being stated ( I guess the fact that there is more of us and news is so much more accessible along with population growth has nothing to do with it).  

I would like to see if these people making such statements are in a normal relationship as it would be back home. Older farang with a much younger girl. Do you think this is normal in Thailand. No for the most part and in Thailand almost 100% of the time in the thai culture it was pure monetery reasons when it was the case. In the farangs case just the opposite except it is mostly always monetery and still is and almost always will be. One thing most hated by thais is cheap charlie

foreigners.

One thing for sure entprenurialship is alive and well in most places of the world and no longer does dictatorship look attractive to most. Otherwise take your excuses back home with you and do what your father and his father and so on did

before you and stay in your own community. If you cannot take the heat get out of the kitchen. A few foreigners is appreciated but being over run is not liked nor appreciated in  and all civilizations and is the very prejudice you are hearing. But what to #### can we do with population growth and prosperity. Enjoy it when you can

[samuisam]

Can I put in my two cents here:

IMHO the game being played in Thailand and the rest of the world is simple - the ruling elite blames all of the countries problems on "The Americans" in order to misdirect the public from the real problem - the ruling elite in most countries has an vastly unequal share of the wealth;  this is especially true of Thailand.  

Also, I am wary of the individuals who post racist comments against people they don't know just because of the country they were born in.

[Khun ?]

I was talking about some of these people post that are blaming the problem on the americans.

Simple little minds. These people need to be sent to N. Korea

where someone would do their thinking for them. Many African countries they might like to be in with no american influence. These people deserve no freedom at all they are pathetic bigots.

[kwiz117]

deleted by myself…

[enchanted]

After reading reply from Khun?, my point about eurocentrism has been reinforced. Americans believe in Freedom of Speech...but the contradiction is that only Americans can have the freedom to speak their minds and not others..what irony...

What makes your mind more superior than others? Is it by eating too many Big Macs? Who are you to say others have simple minds?

In American lingua....I say "UP YOURS!"

[KenUdon]

When I started this thread, I did not intend that it turn into an "anti-American" diatribe. I am not American, and not anti American either, so have no axe to grind either way.

Certainly in the discussions at school, there was no specific reference to Americans, or any other nationality either.

I would like to add that the notion that farangs are judged by the actions of the foreigners in places like Nana Plaza, Pattaya etc and that this is where the anti farang sentiment comes from is probably not true in this area. It is hardly likely that the students here would have witnessed anything like that as there is really no comparable night life here.

There is more to it than that. It appeared to be a more media inspired bias - a result maybe of following the Govt. line as portrayed on the Thai TV and papers.

[enchanted]

I sincerely apologise for my outburst in my previous reply.

I hope I did not incur the wrath of anyone here...just got a little worked up....don't mean what I said...

Please accept my apologies....we Asians are a "civilised, gentle" lot...

Cheers!

[taxexile]

from panterei  

Honestly, I am disappointed.  You, obviously, are an intelligent, well-informed, well-educated, and rational person.  I apologize if I misinterpreted your comment, but…  The comment (i) suggests an irrational anti-American bias;

actually i dont have an anti-american bias , i have spent many months in the usa and have enjoyed every minute,the people were superb,helpful beyond the call of duty,the service second to none,hotels,restaurants,shops etc.just great,prices good,and it's the people there who make it so welcoming and enjoyable.

however,and there has to be a however,americans dont travel well,take an american out of america and he/she metamorphoses into a completely different animal,yes its a sweeping generalisation, but i believe there is some truth in it.the swagger,the loud voice,the demands,the lack of patience,the amazement that anyone should question the americans right to have something rectified should it not go according to plan.these attributes become very noticeable when plonked down in the middle of asia and jar and annoy those who are not used to them.couple this to a foreign policy that leaves the rest of the world in shocked bemusement at its arrogance and conceit and one should be able to see why anti americanism is starting to increase around the world.when i was in the states, i found it impossible ,either on tv or in the newspapers to find out anything about the world outside america,it just does'nt exist,it is an island and its inhabitants are cut off from the outside world.its no wonder that america finds it hard to be considerate .on a personal level i have no anti american feeling,but i feel that i should be able to express what i see and feel in a rational way.

i am from england and i could go on about  englands imperial past,the drunken louts who cause havoc everywhere they go,our arms sales and tony blair and all the other faults in the british psyche that i see.but i'm sure there are many out there who would be only too  willing to do it on my behalf.

i am in thailand because i am fortunate enough to have been able to escape the expensive ,competitive, bureacratic and legal madhouse that europe has become.we are told it is progress.it comes from america and it is an unstoppable tide.

[Khun ?]

Enterprise itself is driving a world economy ( News is an enterprise obtainable by those that are not and never have been educated enough to look at it in a global sence).

Yes in america the same as in thailand, most only see and hear

what is sensational news that produces income for someone/

corporation. Most that get this sensational news do not have the ability to have more than just this one side of the news

(Bashing sales) America just happens to be the most global active and one of the few left that stand out above the rest

and has the means to do it on a global scale. So by default

they have to take the heat.

In saying this, let us not forget most of us do not have the time or means to do other than see how it directly effects us on a day to day basis. Since we seem to be looking at it at this simple form of how it effects me directly attitude, why does the farmer in thailand not get the same compensation as a farmer in europe for a bad year.

Just this one simple question should open some eyes.

One thing you better not forget while you are sitting there drinking your singha is the exact thing you are now bashing is what give you the ability to be there in the first place.

It should be them sitting in your country while you are out working your butt off all day long just to put food on the table.  Oh do we hear your simplistic minds waking a bit now as the thongs being taken off and the work boots are back on and you are transplanted back home ( you do remember that place right).

You may just want to thank some while you are sitting there drinking that cold beir/beer that are paying with life's and taxes (hard work) to allow you to be able to do just this same thing. It is one world with very complex situations that require a WTO a U.N. and IMF also some leaders with some teeth (balls) to protect them who have been exploited by a few

minority interest (democracy) it's better than anything else invented so far by the human race.

 Take anything that requires oil products away and where would you be (with a rag on your head) no because you cannot eat oil nor have a vehicle to use it in (minerals to build vehicles, planes and knowledge) and these places could not do anything with it if we just went back to the simple life of no electric, no planes and no vehicles. This would probably leave us with no trees and we would all be using them for light, heat and whatever else.

Not such a simplistic thing anymore right. Not always fair to all humans but advancement of humans in kind is moving on and governments are trying to make it a fair playing field for their own countries for all places even if we are still along way off. It is a #### site better than the old horse and buggy days.

Just because you now are sitting in a less advanced country with people not liking you to be able to do so at will, give you the right to blame others for what liked and not liked for your exact situation thats giving you the ability to be where you are or where you have been.  

The poor do not want to be the poor and the rich made this possible of them wanting not to be poor (damned if you do, damned if you don't). I think this is enough to get a few minds

working again.  200 years ago most of us would of been dead by 50 years old so it has gotten better and we should be happy that us, that have put more into advancement of the human are benefitting the most in todays world.

We could be sitting making excuses why we do not have it like others and never be anything but lazy and dumb but some how we managed to be the ones who have been able to exploit what they are jealous of.  To many people sitting around with nothing to do will have these same effect ( Idle minds and hands are dangerous things).

I cannot make excuses why others do not have what I have other than I work my ass off to get what I have, it was not given to me. So maybe some of these complainers should do the same. If you have enough time to sit around and blame others for all your problems your being counter productive and problematic and a bit lazy to say the least. Human nature is to blame others for what one does not like or agree with.

Thank bhuda we ended up on the right side of the fence but it is still  not easier just better for the time being. Maybe 1000's of years ago we were relatives of the ones who invented the wheel or the ones that knew what to do with it.

One thing rezentment is alive and well in Thailand.

I do not think I would like having others that can do whatever they want when they want with our women no matter where they are from.

Time to sneak on out of here. (please correct any spelling or grammar you can live with or just sit and continue to complain

its theariputic) Thailands economy may grow at over 8% this year so it is becoming better for them and they are catching on to complaining.

[Bukseeda]

One thing rezentment is alive and well in Thailand.

I do not think I would like having others that can do whatever they want when they want with our women no matter where they are from.

I thought, mistakenly of course, that women were no longer considered a possession.  Or perhaps you've identified the root of the problem.   Either way, I imagine "your" women would tell you they'd like to do what they #### they want and with whom they want.

[meemiathai]

KenUdon Posted on Sep. 15 2003,12:15

I would like to add that the notion that farangs are judged by the actions of the foreigners in places like Nana Plaza, Pattaya etc and that this is where the anti farang sentiment comes from is probably not true in this area. It is hardly likely that the students here would have witnessed anything like that as there is really no comparable night life here.

There is more to it than that. It appeared to be a more media inspired bias - a result maybe of following the Govt. line as portrayed on the Thai TV and papers.

Yes I agree with you.  But the students might have heard from people who had witnessed.(personally, actions or misbehaviours of farangs in those places do not upset me as long as they respect everyone of every race of every social status.afterall, they have the right to enjoy themselves to their extreme for being tourists. I don't know what the thais think.) And also why would the Govt. have portrayed things like that on the Thai TV and papers? Must be a reason.

I am glad to see here that there are sensible farangs(not offensive word) that are not as egocentric as the vast majority of them.(based on the ones I have seen and come in contact with)  And I apologize for my posting(nextdoor) if they have offended you guys.

I am a 34 year old half chinese, half british guy brought up in HK in a 99%, if not 100% chinese way.(my english father died when i was 3)

When I was a kid growing up seeing lots of bad things(not always true, only what I thought as a kid) done by the chinese, the west had always given me a very good impression that the people are cleverer(which I still think is quite true on average), nicer, more polite and more open-minded(which I find to be most untrue nowadays). But as I grow and start meeting the west, it turned out to be another story.

In my 20s, I started to travel on holidays to other countries;

I was in Rome for half a day and had recieved the worst attitudes from the people there. Maybe due to misunderstandings, but it seems to me it this one of the most racist place I have visited.

Athens and the islands in Greece, spent a few days there. Beautiful place! The men were quite rude but the women were nice and VERY BEAUTIFUL!

Cairo Egypt,nice people except a lot do try to burn holes in tourists' wallets. No racial problem although they did prefer japanese better because they can afford spending a lot more.

Turkey, nice hotels.

France, the people seemed to be a bit more friendly than the english.

Amsterdam Holland, nicest people I have met in Europe so far.

London, it would be easier to find water in a desert than to find a smile on the face. Even if you find it, it is usually a mirage.(faked, hypocritical)

Korea, not bad. but you need a blind man's stick to travel. no english. no racist problem.

Singapore, they speak every language!

T'land, no comments. Plan to live there in future ASAP.

New Zealand, great fun. Mostly nice people but still the farang racist thing could be found.

Canada, there are the only farangs I find who are 100% colour-blind. I wonder if they realized they were talking to a bunch of asians(chinese). Especially in Edmonton!  They are all saints.  Best people on earth! I'll be back!

China, you won't complain about Thailand again if you have been there.(of course depends which part you go to)

(the above is based on average encounters and not meant to be critical)

I am not racist at all(depends how you define the word).  I smile and be nice to everyone I see disregarding their colour.  But it is to my observation that a lot of farangs are quite racist.  I suppose it is just in their culture and they do not even realize it.(usually the Brits)  Well, some certainly do! and are just evil spirits.  And this had triggered me to be more racist than I should be.  I now do not smile to farangs when I see them avoiding being silly.  And I am now less tolerant and more impatient to them than before.

I myself am not affected harmfully by the existing racist matter in the world, I am a hedonist but am still aware of people suffering(being looked down upon by others) in this world, so would like to let people know how I feel.(I believe that I am not the only one with greivances on this issue)  And remember, I look like a farang and might perhaps have been treated better already! And if that is the case, what will the pure asians have in feelings?

[Khun ?]

Bukseeda

This is exactly true where I come from. I have not seen any that I know marry foreigners twice their age especialy at the rate they do in Thailand nor does my country have the sex tourist problem that thailand is well known for. Infiltration of illegal disadvantaged poor, yes. Same as Thailand has this also

people skirting the law to stay more than the 90 day toursit visa they are issued. The abuse of this 90 day visa alone is causing alot of havoc presently ( it has been turned into the same as a long stay visa for those that are disadvantaged enough that they could not stay long term in accordance with the thai law). Hand and hand these above problems is causing alot of controversy on this board right now.

           meemiathai

 Not to get into tit for tat on each nationality and since we are on topics of a thai board.

Easy enough to look at what the population is of each country of the general foreigner staying long term in thailand.

This alone will give you a some what blurred indication of what to expect from the people from this country. Why are so many leaving it to live in another country (remember this is a blurred view to many varibles to each country in why).

Thailand does have attractions that we do not have in many other places in the world and they will prosper and now are implimenting laws to do it in an orderly fashion.

Only for example, a beach resort that throws its trash on the beach will kill what makes it attractive.....

If america is the cause why all farangs are being looked poorly on it would only be americans the thais would impliment the new laws for ie; visa on entry and what visas would be availible to americans. What I see has taken place is so Thailand can do things to capitalize on visitors and long stay people in their country they set limits that reflect what the normal person from each country would need to live a normal life in their own country. Nothing more nothing less.

It is not based fully on what you need to live in thailand it is trying to get the main stream person of each country (not to high not to low).

Some like fat some like thin some like short some like tall. We can all not like something about everyone. I think right now it is the easy thing to do is blame the american and alot of farangs are doing just that as a diversion of them own self (matter of fact some make it a point to go out of their way to influence the locals this is all their problems).

Was it nice to be looked upon as the walking wallet in europe, a little flaunting of the reputation of the Yen kind of made you a couple inches taller right.

Anyways we all have <deleted> (opinions) and some stink more than others.

[D80]

Hello KenUdon,

I think it is sad if such attitude is adopted by young people these days.   However, at the same time, I am not surprised that this is the case (although I do not agree with them).

It's not just the media and the government trying to tell the Thais that foreigners are bad news.  I think there has always been a deep rooted suspicion towards foreigners by the Thais-it's pretty much in the culture.  This doesn't mean Thais in general hate foreigners.  It's more like a mistrust.... in my opinion anyway....

I have to say, although I personally don't have anything against anyone who are non-Thai, from some things I have read on this board (or others) and what I have experienced from some small percentage of disrespectful farange, I can sometimes understand why some Thais dislike them.     ???

Oh, and BTW, I don't know about the areas where the students you are talking about are from, but it is more than likely that they will hear of some farangs' behaviour in these tourist populated areas one way or the other (friends, relatives, internet etc etc.).  I grew up in BKK and have witnessed these sorts of things (even before the days of internet) even though I live well away from the 'farang' area.

[parryhandy]

Far be it from me to point out that he was a policeman, who by dint of "hard work" rose to the heady heights of wealth he has achieved, with no one questionning his astounding wealth.

Far be it from me also to point out, that he rode a tide of grassroots support saying he was for the poor, and was voted in by those same "smelly masses" at 300 baht per vote.

yes i find it incredible that noone ever mentions this . the fact that in a country like thailand or anywhere for that matter it is impossible to become that wealthy that quickly without a lot of skeletons.

did he really say "smelly masses" ? doesnt suprise me.do the majority of thais like this name given to them ? why is he so "popular"?

as for vote payment it does go on. my wife was paid 40 baht to vote for a candidate in a local election.its hardly suprising when they are treated with contempt afterwards really.

as for the post subject these children will only have access to bias govn controlled media so its not suprising.just look at thai tv.absolute trash.where are the cutting documentries , political debates,interviews etc.. they dont exsist. just soaps with identical storylines and gameshows.oh and the odd bit of sport thrown in.

[kwiz117]

deleted by myself..

[simon43]

A quick comment about the 'damage' that some farang can do to the image of all farangs - by their bad behaviour or sex-tourism etc.  My office is in Silom Road, but on the Patpong side of the road.  Every day when I walk to work I am hassled by Thais (both men and women), who try to talk me into the sex-bars. I can see the guys in these bars, western farang sure, but many Japanese, Chinese and Thai men.  I do think that many Thais seem a little blind at times to the fact that many of the problems they associate with farangs are equally (if not more), instigated by their own citizens. But farang look different and its only human nature to discriminate against those who differ from then orm.

[ovenman]

4 of the staff were ok with it. 6 of them were not happy with it. Reason was they think those girls went behind them for the money and they earn money more than Thai Staff.

...

I also asked them, why they think like that. The response was, many Indian’s come and take Land from Thai People by giving them loans.

...

Forgot..I also asked how they feel about a Retired Falang come to Thailand and live with a young Thai ladies. [Yes, I really asked this]. The response was very positive. They said it is up to them and they do not care. I asked whether they like it or not. Then one girl said, if I know any falang who have money..tell her.

One microcosm surveyed to be sure, but interesting how most of the negative responses come back to money in one form or another moreso than a dislike of foreigners per se.

[plachon]

 Every day when I walk to work I am hassled by Thais (both men and women), who try to talk me into the sex-bars.

I know Si, it's a real hassle eh? As if you need "talking in". The signs outside are not really clear enough are they?  

[PREM-R]

Khun ? wrote

people skirting the law to stay more than the 90 day toursit visa they are issued. The abuse of this 90 day visa alone is causing alot of havoc presently ( it has been turned into the same as a long stay visa for those that are disadvantaged enough that they could not stay long term in accordance with the thai law).

Where is the abuse in purchasing a multi-entry TR tourist visa from a Thai Consulate in your own country (60 DAY NOT90 DAY) for 70 GBP for 4 entries, and when the 60 days are up either applying for a 30 DAY extension (1900 Baht) at immigration or leaving the country and returning, thus bringing the second 'entry' into operation. By doing this a person can stay (  QUITE LEGALLY) in LOS for upto 1 year. What laws are being "skirted"? Answer : NONE!

 If the person then returns to his or her home country and applies for another multi-entry TR the whole process can start again (QUITE LEGALLY).

 As to "causing havoc", where?, who with?, about what?

The only controversy surround the TR visa that I have seen on the Thai Visa forum has been the huge increase in price, not any so called "abuse".

 A multi-entry TR visa is a LEGITIMATE  way to stay LEGALLY in Thailand for an extended period (at least for the time being)

[markt]

[markt]

I was in Rome for half a day and had recieved the worst attitudes from the people there. Maybe due to misunderstandings, but it seems to me it this one of the most racist place I have visited.

Athens and the islands in Greece, spent a few days there. Beautiful place! The men were quite rude but the women were nice and VERY BEAUTIFUL!

Cairo Egypt,nice people except a lot do try to burn holes in tourists' wallets. No racial problem although they did prefer japanese better because they can afford spending a lot more.

Turkey, nice hotels.

France, the people seemed to be a bit more friendly than the english.

Amsterdam Holland, nicest people I have met in Europe so far.

London, it would be easier to find water in a desert than to find a smile on the face. Even if you find it, it is usually a mirage.(faked, hypocritical)

Korea, not bad. but you need a blind man's stick to travel. no english. no racist problem.

Singapore, they speak every language!

T'land, no comments. Plan to live there in future ASAP.

New Zealand, great fun. Mostly nice people but still the farang racist thing could be found.

Canada, there are the only farangs I find who are 100% colour-blind. I wonder if they realized they were talking to a bunch of asians(chinese). Especially in Edmonton!  They are all saints.  Best people on earth! I'll be back!

China, you won't complain about Thailand again if you have been there.(of course depends which part you go to)

(the above is based on average encounters and not meant to be critical)

Blimey!   You're not Judith Chalmers are you?   lol

[plachon]

An earlier post, posed the question;

"Is money, wealth and power the only yardstick of "civilization"?"

And provided the answer

"Of course not, but I firmly believe that this is what the Thai aristocracy believes.""

In my humble opinion the view that money wealth and power are the yardsticks to a developing economy/democracy/status is not only held by the so called "aristocracy", but by virtue of trickle down (of Reagan fame), has led it to be a standard by which everything is judged.

This then leads the Thai people to see all foreigners, no matter their real wealth or lack of it to be wealthy, by comparison to western people. (I detest the word farang)..

Thailand is governed by a single wealthy Chinese and his friends. He is ruled by the buck and in fact in the last 12 months, when visiting his old alma mater, as you Americans say, said, he felt like an old Texan or something like that.

In the same visit, he described sharing with his wife a one room apartment, with a blanket to separate the games room from the living room.

This same person was given an honorary doctorate in humanities, in spite of his governments' appalling human rights record in respect not only to Westerners, but to just about anyone, who isn't adding to his coffers.

One doesn't need to work hard to realise that the University is a pay for it style, where results are based on your financial capacity, not your brain power. I have to give credit for his choice of "criminology" for his doctorate, however. Lets face it, it is indeed difficult to fail a subject at which you would likely be an expert to have achieved what you have.

Far be it from me to point out that he was a policeman, who by dint of "hard work" rose to the heady heights of wealth he has achieved, with no one questionning his astounding wealth.

Far be it from me also to point out, that he rode a tide of grassroots support saying he was for the poor, and was voted in by those same "smelly masses" at 300 baht per vote.

When the apologists turn over and say "woe is me", I promise not to stand and say I told you so. You bring the axe down on your own neck. As my son, who isn't Thai said "wake up and smell the flowers". All Thailand wants is your money, your expertise transfer, and you gone. In that order.

Thailand since 1968 has made itself the worlds bedroom, and wonders about "low class people" travelling here, to use the Thai brothels, set up for american use, but normally frequented by wealthy Thais getting off on going second after a foreigner, at half the price.

To quote my son, "dickheads, every one".

You've got a very paternal attitude haven't you IT? But glad to see somebody has been following the plot, though I would correct you on two small points. The first is that the said gentleman didn't get in by buying votes, as you suggest. That's old-style politics and just leads to messy coalitions. He's far too smart for that. He bought a whole country (not from ill-gotten cops earnings either, if you study his CV) and the reward is to get to run it how HE likes, CEO-style.

The second point I must make exception with is your suggestion that "no one has questionned his astounding wealth". They did and there was evidence of clear (muddy) impropiety over a mountainous-sounding land deal and concealment of assets amongst trusty servants, and even went to court a couple of years ago. But one of the advantages of having a rather large majority is a rather large amount of power that goes with it. Having vocal supporters turning up at court for the cameras each day helps too, so that little episode has soon been buried in the mists of not-so-ancient history.

For other ticklish posters, I'd suggest you learn to draw a fine distinction between Uncle Sam (representing the statist military machine) and the mass populace (represented by your good selves). My gripe is principally with the former.

P.S. What is the significance of 1968, IT? Did R & R not occur before that?

[MaiChai]

One thing I think we are missing, and D80 touched on is that Toxin is following a popularist policy. He is firstly stiring up nationalism with all this farang/IMF bashing, and then he comes up with policies that make him even more popular (1M baht village funds, 30 baht health scheme, giving away land to poor farmers?). The Thais are naturally against anything foreign because of all this propoganda. Talking to folks in my village and they think Toxin is wonderful; he just can't seem to put a foot wrong! Not to mention there won't be an political opposition soon

[pantarei]

taxexile; Posted: Sep. 15 2003,15:44  

however,and there has to be a however,americans dont travel well,

I could not agree more!

However….  A lot of the pleasure and business travel is done by the stereotypical yuppies, i.e., the “me generation”.  Their inappropriate  behavior overseas is due to their total lack of any manners and the fact that their outrageous behavior is not challenged.  In my experience, such behavior is occasionally challenged in the US.  I assume that the passive reaction of people overseas is caused by a “what can you expect” attitude.  The other problem is that the blowhards are highly noticeable whereas nobody notices polite, well-behaved Americans (there are quite a few of them).

couple this to a foreign policy that leaves the rest of the world in shocked bemusement at its arrogance and conceit and one should be able to see why anti americanism is starting to increase around the world.

I respectfully disagree and will keep wmy argument short. Germany felt humiliated following WWI and the Versailles treaty.  Hitler came to power.  His belligerence was rewarded by the Munich treaty, supported overwhelmingly by western European governments and western public opinion.  WWII, concentration camps, the “iron curtain”, etc. ensued.  Moslem terrorist feel insulted, etc., etc.  Well, normal people want to live normal, peaceful lives.  Every time evil raises its head, the opinion of the well-meaning majority is “don’t provoke them, give them what they want, and eventually they will go away.”  I am not sure that most well-meaning people realize that evil cannot be pacified, it must be eliminated.  There is ample historical evidence to support this conclusion.  

It is not "the rest of the world" - the governments and most people in Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, etc. support the US.  The fact that thanks to the US they are no longer slaves of the evil empire may have something to do with it.    

”Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect” (Mark Twain).

on a personal level i have no anti american feeling,but i feel that i should be able to express what i see and feel in a rational way.

Your posts are rational and informative, and I enjoy reading them.  I wish I had your command of the English language!

We do not agree on everything but, then, what is the point of exchanging posts with one’s clone.  I think that our observations are similar but some of our interpretations differ.  Multiple working hypotheses are an indispensable part of science. We aren't dealing here with science but the principle goes beyond science.

i am from england and i could go on about  englands imperial past,

What’s wrong with England’s imperial past?  By “modern” standards the empire's policies were oppressive; however, by its contemporary standards they were, for the most part, progressive.  Extrapolation of present-day standards to the distant past is an exercise in futility.  Should Napoleon’s defeat at Waterloo be attributed to his army’s lack of stealth bombers?

i am in thailand because i am fortunate enough to have been able to escape the expensive ,competitive, bureacratic and legal madhouse that europe has become.we are told it is progress.it comes from america and it is an unstoppable tide.

I agree that the US is the source of “legal madness” IMO it is largely due to the out-of-control “political-correctness”.  

IMO, fair competition is a healthy phenomenon; by contrast, competition based on back-stabbing, fraud, etc. is not.  I am pretty sure that back-stabbing, etc. existed before 1776.  I am not aware of a single American company offering foreign officials chateaus in exchange for preferential treatment.  

Bureaucracy --  The French etymology of the term suggests that it is not unique to the US.  in my experience it is much, much worse in Europe than in the US (I had lived both in E. and W. Europe).  

According to Europeans I worked with in Europe, the bloated and inefficient “social welfare” system is  a major (if not the major) cause of the high cost of living and lower salaries in Western European countries (relative to the US).  However, I have no first-hand experience or any insights into this issue.

Bottom line, would the world be better off without the United States of America?  Would terrorism, wars, earthquakes, social injustice, bureaucracy disappear?  Would life be easier and the cost of living lower without American science and technology contributions?  Would people be healthier without American pharma and biotech breakthroughs?  BTW, the predominance of the American biotech sector is the consequence of American venture capitalists and investors willing to take bigger risks than their European/Asian counterparts.  “Unbridled confidence” has its positive aspects.

It seems that my posts are getting increasingly off-topic, so I will refrain from posting more messages on this thread.  I look forward to reading your future posts.

[Khun ?]

Khun ? wrote

people skirting the law to stay more than the 90 day toursit visa they are issued. The abuse of this 90 day visa alone is causing alot of havoc presently ( it has been turned into the same as a long stay visa for those that are disadvantaged enough that they could not stay long term in accordance with the thai law).

Where is the abuse in purchasing a multi-entry TR tourist visa from a Thai Consulate in your own country (60 DAY NOT90 DAY) for 70 GBP for 4 entries, and when the 60 days are up either applying for a 30 DAY extension (1900 Baht) at immigration or leaving the country and returning, thus bringing the second 'entry' into operation. By doing this a person can stay (  QUITE LEGALLY) in LOS for upto 1 year. What laws are being "skirted"? Answer : NONE!

 If the person then returns to his or her home country and applies for another multi-entry TR the whole process can start again (QUITE LEGALLY).

 As to "causing havoc", where?, who with?, about what?

The only controversy surround the TR visa that I have seen on the Thai Visa forum has been the huge increase in price, not any so called "abuse".

 A multi-entry TR visa is a LEGITIMATE  way to stay LEGALLY in Thailand for an extended period (at least for the time being)

60 and 30= 90 so it is refered to as a 90 day visa. This will end soon as in most countries you will have to get your new 60+30

in your home country and may even have a minimum period between the issue of each one (because of abuse). Would you consider a person that only leaves country for a couple days with the only purpose of another visa be a tourist, no, so in fact it is being used to not comply with long term stay requirements. Thousand do not even leave to get the new 60+ 30.

Thailand is trying to be attractive to tourist not people trying to live cheap, otherwise why even have a long term requirement. It has become cheap charlie haven and a turn off

to many that may otherwise bring the required amount and spend a considerable amount living to their normal standards.

I do not think anyone does not understand what is going on.

Enough people have already expressed their displeasures through their embassy of the negitive effect it is having. Why settle for  a Fiat when you can have a BMW. With the Russians and Chinese in play now they can raise the requirements and may actually gain using less resources (it's a business).

If you need a good example it would be like a night club being

overcrowded every night but most only buying one drink and spending hours taking up space..... Only time till the owner raises prices and makes changes (does this sound familar).

The place will lose good customers and end up with more of the same 1 drink people if they do not make changes. How many of these same people think they are doing thailand a favor (most). Lets see who does the crying when changes take place.

[PREM-R]

Khun ? Posted on Sep. 17 2003,06:13

60 and 30= 90 so it is refered to as a 90 day visa. This will end soon as in most countries you will have to get your new 60+30

There is NO 90 day TR visa available, 60 days  is given to the holder on arrival in Thailand and then  he or she must either apply for an extension from immigration (This is in the power of the immigration officer you are dealing with and may be up to 30 days or none at all!) or leave the country.(if you don't believe me ask DR. Pat Pong)

 I have not heard of the "new" 60 + 30 TR visa, does this automatically allow a person a 30 day extension without recourse to immigration?

  If you read my posting you will notice that I stated that the TR should be multi-entry AND ISSUED IN THE PERSONS HOME COUNTRY

may even have a minimum period between the issue of each one (because of abuse).

Would you say that a one year interval between issues of TR visas was enough? That is what I refer to in my posting.

 I do not see why you continue to talk of abuse of TR visas when they are obtained legally from a Thai Consulate in the persons own country, the Thai authorities make the rules (and take the money) so there is clearly no "abuse" of the system, providing the holder leaves Thailand as required then there is no problem for the Thai authorities.  I would agree that anyone who does not leave Thailand as required (using visa agents etc.) should be punished, but people who abide by the law (as it stands) are not abusing anything.

 My personal situation is that I am here for 1 year to see how things work out with my long term (5 years), Thai girl friend. I  had a 1 million baht house built for her  and her children ( whose father is a Thai who deserted her and has never paid a satang for his Kids). I am the only source of income for 4 adults and 4 children within the family, but have no 'legal' position as I am not married to the girl.  My only option is to purchase a TR visa so that I can stay long enough to 'get a feel' for the area and decide if I wish to become a "full time" resident, when ofcourse I will be happy to meet any obligations that the Thai Authorities may require for my 'retirement'.

[Khun ?]

Perm

I understand what you are saying it is a one year multi entry

with limits to how long you can stay per visit (same as many other countries do). However let's not forget a good many have been using the single entry visa for long term stays only leaving when another 60+30 is needed. The abuse of these single entry visa may effect the 1 year you are issued in the future.

Rumor has it that there may only be 1 type (not counting work visa) of the 1 year visa in the future which is the retirement visa which means put your money in our bank (they can loan this money out, a free source of finance for the Thai economy) then we know you have enough to live or

actually it is more or less insuring if there is a medical or some other type of problem they can take this money ffor the problem.

The limits on this deposit is also unsure can you spend this money while living there, which will mean they do not have this insurance money if something does happen. When returning the next year they may see that you lived off the money and only at the end of year when you have to apply for the next year you replenish the deposit again.

Since you are not keeping this insurance money amount most of the year they could think that you are borrowing this money and it is not actually your money as no funds have been coming in to the country for your living expense at a normal interval. So in fact you could be working under the table or doing something illegal to survive as the deposit money is being paid back on intervals to whom fronted you.

Now on the supporting of 4 adults and 3 children.

So you are creating a welfare system of your own which as you say you may option out of ( you can do the same through a charity or from abroad). Do you think you are creating a dependence for these people and the children to grow up and be lazy (you reap what you sow). Yes we all know that Thailand does not have a social system that support the old.

So this in case should the girls come straight out of school or even opt out of education and get into one of these relationships at an early age say maybe 16,17, 18, 22, or somewhere early in life. Would you say to get one of these early fund packages they would need to avail themselves to the adult entertainment life.

This may be something Thailand should look into on a long term basis. They could actually set them up like stock market swaps to keep the foreign sources sticking around much longer. Wouldn't this be great your adopted family girl starts getting to be a nag or old you just swap for another. Then of course she could also option for an upgrade maybe even a stock split handling twice as many investors or availing a sister to help get into one of these plans real early in life.

I do not think Thailand is any longer looking at these type of relationships being the best for their future. It creates as many long term ills (domestic) as it fixes short term (foreign dependence to raise their populace). So in this case one way to stay long term will only be one way, put your money in the bank (insurance deposit which can be used as low interest loans to the poor) and also you must continue living off other than your deposit...........  

I am not saying you will abandon your adopted responsibilties that you need this long term visa for but you should look at all factors involved in the thai society. Morals such as hard work and education is the best way to succede in  life.

Just a thought!!!!!!

[easymoney]

Perm

You strictly have not played within the games, but given that you have a great chance if you marry heer you get the 1 year visa.

However I tend to believe an another marriage elsewhere

[Khun ?]

Perm

You strictly have not played within the games, but given that you have a great chance if you marry heer you get the 1 year visa.

However I tend to believe an another marriage elsewhere

Money

Not really enough info from Perm to say how he has used this

visa or what his ability going forward is and really none of our business. Building a house alone even though it is very honorable and thoughtful, but alone is not enough to get a long term visa if that is what he wants.

Marriage and 800,000

also may not be enough if a person has moved lock stock and barrel to Thailand. The determaining factor will be what

income he will have access to after the 800,000 but then again what is the mood of the person who will approve continuing visas each year.

I read in one of the post that immigration appreciates tips so in terminology wise as long as it is not referred to as a bribe you should expect maybe a little leaneancy give or take a few thousand baht  

There is no such thing as a 60 day visa on arrival only 30+10 days is possible witout getting one issued from a thai consulate.

I wonder what info you must give to get this multi entry you have Perm. Is there any miss leading, lets say you have no intentions of not leaving Thailand other than to renew the visa each 90 days. This being the case you are avoiding the one year no leave country visa. Intentions being the key word.

Seems like after 5 years you would know the girl enough to know if it is for long term. You are not marring the baggage and all sympathy to you. You almost have enough to start your own pandering crew in Bkk.

Either you are very kind hearted or ?. The world is a better place for people like you though. Best of Luck to you.

Best advice would be add a couple rooms and call it an orphanage.