Koi Ponds

[Naam]

1. What intrigues me about your pond and I wish that mine was as large {it had to fit at the side of the house} is what have you have in the way of supplying water to your filter, gravity fed bottom drains are accepted in the industry as being the most cost effective as you do away with a pump and the best way of shifting muck from the bottom and is the best system,

2. as for running your pumps all the time will not improve matters as you have no fish so to speak thus no waste products to break down from ammonia into nitrites into nitrates thus no algae problem, do not confuse the needs of the usual fish needs with the needs of koi, koi are ornamental fish and you want to see them not have them hiding under 3ft of murky green water, if you want to know about filtration just pm me your pond could be put right for a lot less money than building another pond. Wacky.

1. i had bottom drains from which the pumps sucked. but they are gone now. no <deleted> way to fit now a bottom drain in 20cm thick steel-reinforced concrete. see picture below i also don't understand "gravity fed", i'm a physicist and convinced that a perpetuum mobile does not exist, or does it? please elaborate Wacky

2. i am aware of that. initially my pond was clear till i introduced the kois which were shitting galore because i overfed them

pond structure and original pond size ~130m²:

Edited April 19, 2009 by Naam

[wackysleet]

1. What intrigues me about your pond and I wish that mine was as large {it had to fit at the side of the house} is what have you have in the way of supplying water to your filter, gravity fed bottom drains are accepted in the industry as being the most cost effective as you do away with a pump and the best way of shifting muck from the bottom and is the best system,

2. as for running your pumps all the time will not improve matters as you have no fish so to speak thus no waste products to break down from ammonia into nitrites into nitrates thus no algae problem, do not confuse the needs of the usual fish needs with the needs of koi, koi are ornamental fish and you want to see them not have them hiding under 3ft of murky green water, if you want to know about filtration just pm me your pond could be put right for a lot less money than building another pond. Wacky.

1. i had bottom drains from which the pumps sucked. but they are gone now. no <deleted> way to fit now a bottom drain in 20cm thick steel-reinforced concrete. see picture below i also don't understand "gravity fed", i'm a physicist and convinced that a perpetuum mobile does not exist, or does it? please elaborate Wacky

2. i am aware of that. initially my pond was clear till i introduced the kois which were shitting galore because i overfed them

pond structure and original pond size ~130m²:

naam, in my system there are no pumps in the pond, my filter setup consists of in ground concrete boxes {3 off} interconnected as my sketch on an earlier post, my two pumps for the returned water from the filters to the pond are actually situated in the last of the 3 chamber filter box so as you can see from my sketch water being returned to the pond is instantly replaced by gravity, pond and filter box water obviously at the same level thus dragging all the crap and rubbish via the bottom drains into the filter system.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but the depth of your pond looks to be about 2'-0", is that correct? you also have a shelf which presumably was for marginal planting, the shelf is really not advisable in a koi pond as it somewhat negates the effectiveness of the bottom drains. Wacky.

[Naam]

1. naam, in my system there are no pumps in the pond, my filter setup consists of in ground concrete boxes {3 off} interconnected as my sketch on an earlier post, my two pumps for the returned water from the filters to the pond are actually situated in the last of the 3 chamber filter box so as you can see from my sketch water being returned to the pond is instantly replaced by gravity, pond and filter box water obviously at the same level thus dragging all the crap and rubbish via the bottom drains into the filter system.

2. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the depth of your pond looks to be about 2'-0", is that correct? you also have a shelf which presumably was for marginal planting, the shelf is really not advisable in a koi pond as it somewhat negates the effectiveness of the bottom drains. Wacky.

1. now i got the picture Wacky. the confusing part for me was "gravity fed bottom drains are accepted in the industry as being the most cost effective as you do away with a pump"

by the way, both my pumps are outside the pond and installed inside the waterfall. but as i mentioned their only function now is to aerate the water, filtration is practically zero.

2. depth of my pond is 3', the ledge is indeed meant for plants which can't grow completely submerged.

what would you suggest that i do based on the facts as specified hereafter:

-installation of bottom drains (as already mentioned) virtually impossible. the lowest i can install a drain inlet is 10cm (4") above bottom. i have enough space on one side of the pond to install a 3-chamber filter but as the pond is big enough i could also integrate the filter by using up a part of the pond meaning filter inside the existing concrete shell. laying piping and installing additional pump(s) wouldn't be a problem.

as for the size and the filter media i would follow your advice. open questions would be still pump size and water volume turnover and of course the main question whether the new setup would compensate for the lack of shade. covering up the surface with floating plants will hide the fish, i.e. catch 22

-i am also planning to remove all rocks to be able to vacuum the pond bottom although the existing plants would still remain obstacles. effort to vacuum does not exist as i have a fulltime live-in gardener who can do the job. that will be done no matter whether i decide for a new setup or not.

the ball is now in your field Wacky. what is your advice how to proceed?

thank in advance!

[wackysleet]

1. naam, in my system there are no pumps in the pond, my filter setup consists of in ground concrete boxes {3 off} interconnected as my sketch on an earlier post, my two pumps for the returned water from the filters to the pond are actually situated in the last of the 3 chamber filter box so as you can see from my sketch water being returned to the pond is instantly replaced by gravity, pond and filter box water obviously at the same level thus dragging all the crap and rubbish via the bottom drains into the filter system.

2. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the depth of your pond looks to be about 2'-0", is that correct? you also have a shelf which presumably was for marginal planting, the shelf is really not advisable in a koi pond as it somewhat negates the effectiveness of the bottom drains. Wacky.

1. now i got the picture Wacky. the confusing part for me was "gravity fed bottom drains are accepted in the industry as being the most cost effective as you do away with a pump"

by the way, both my pumps are outside the pond and installed inside the waterfall. but as i mentioned their only function now is to aerate the water, filtration is practically zero.

2. depth of my pond is 3', the ledge is indeed meant for plants which can't grow completely submerged.

what would you suggest that i do based on the facts as specified hereafter:

-installation of bottom drains (as already mentioned) virtually impossible. the lowest i can install a drain inlet is 10cm (4") above bottom. i have enough space on one side of the pond to install a 3-chamber filter but as the pond is big enough i could also integrate the filter by using up a part of the pond meaning filter inside the existing concrete shell. laying piping and installing additional pump(s) wouldn't be a problem.

as for the size and the filter media i would follow your advice. open questions would be still pump size and water volume turnover and of course the main question whether the new setup would compensate for the lack of shade. covering up the surface with floating plants will hide the fish, i.e. catch 22

-i am also planning to remove all rocks to be able to vacuum the pond bottom although the existing plants would still remain obstacles. effort to vacuum does not exist as i have a fulltime live-in gardener who can do the job. that will be done no matter whether i decide for a new setup or not.

the ball is now in your field Wacky. what is your advice how to proceed?

thank in advance!

naam, I didn't mean to dwell on the cost effectiveness of bottom gravity fed drains, that is a plus, they are the most efficient end of story although cost saving is a very important factor for most people, taking into consideration what you would really like an idea comes to mind that would resolve several other problems, as a first step, how would you feel about turning a section of pond by the waterfall into a vegetable filter that actually looks and performs as a stream via a small waterfall from vegetable filter to main pond for a start it would alleviate a lot of the algae problems you could keep the vast majority of the beneficial plants away from the koi, put a few large size lillies in large pots 1 inch below pond surface, but a quick sketch to hopefully give you/me a platform to explore. Wacky.

[Naam]

how would you feel about turning a section of pond by the waterfall into a vegetable filter that actually looks and performs as a stream via a small waterfall from vegetable filter to main pond for a start it would alleviate a lot of the algae problems you could keep the vast majority of the beneficial plants away from the koi

the theory sounds good Wacky but there is no guarantee that it will work. besides, i hesitate to do something which cannot easily be reconverted to the original status, not to talk about the fact that for the third time i would have to restock my pond with plants.

the execution itself (separation in two sections) is not difficult as i have done it before. i rather prefer an additional filter system either inside or outside the pond which can be removed/disposed if it does not work.

[wackysleet]

how would you feel about turning a section of pond by the waterfall into a vegetable filter that actually looks and performs as a stream via a small waterfall from vegetable filter to main pond for a start it would alleviate a lot of the algae problems you could keep the vast majority of the beneficial plants away from the koi

the theory sounds good Wacky but there is no guarantee that it will work. besides, i hesitate to do something which cannot easily be reconverted to the original status, not to talk about the fact that for the third time i would have to restock my pond with plants.

the execution itself (separation in two sections) is not difficult as i have done it before. i rather prefer an additional filter system either inside or outside the pond which can be removed/disposed if it does not work.

naam the idea of a vegetable filter as described is in addition to a mechanic/bilogical filter placed elsewhere in the garden, in fact it can effectively be put in any convenient spot even away from the main pond. the idea was not intended to be the only filter as it would not work satisfactory.

[malcolminthemiddle]

Wacky some novice questions, if I may.

1. Just to confirm, the filter boxes are gravity fed by drains built into the pond(s) floor. The waterfalls are used just to aerate the water by moving the water between different parts of the pond(s)?

2. How do you synchronise the gravitational water flow with the pumped return? By trial and error? I’m assuming the pump can be adjusted to control the rate of return because the gravitational feed is fixed? I’m also assuming care must be taken to ensure the floor drains are clear at all times to maintain a constant gravity feed?

3. Following on from 1 above, is there any relationship between the volume of the filter boxes and the volume of the pond(s). What is the size of your filter boxes?

4. In lieu of the filter medium you describe in post # 52, apart from the initial cost do you see any issues using a proprietary domestic pool filter such as Zelbrite?

5. We plan to use the natural contours of our sloping land to set up the gravitational filter system with the filter boxes located at the lower level below the level of the pond(s). Do you see any issues with this set up?

Many thanks.

[malcolminthemiddle]

Here's my concept, comments welcome.

Water_Feature___Pond.pdf

[malcolminthemiddle]

double post

Water_Feature___Pond.pdf

Edited April 21, 2009 by malcolminthemiddle

[wackysleet]

Malcolminthe middle, the gravity fed filters in my setup are in ground at the same level as the pond, as per sketch.

Waterfalls in my case are an integral part of my vegetable filter system, the aeration is helpful of course but that function is really taken care of by 200litres of air a minute from my air pump, this part of my system cleans the returning water of nitrates.

Gravitational water flow is normally taken care of from the ponds bottom drains and are usually 4inch dia. back to the filter, and no it's not a trial and error thing with the usual type of filter box, with my system it was and took me a morning to resolve the issue.

Yes there is a correlation between filter and pond size, as the saying goes, you can never over filter but certainly can under filter with disastreous results, if you were to have a pond of 5000galls say and money was not a consideration then you could buy something like a Nexus 300 Easy, it has a very small footprint and a very big price, super efficient and about the size of a dustbin.

I'm not familiar with the Zelbrite pool filter, do you mean it's a swimming pool filter, my filter medium cost me under a 1000 baht.

I could not open your concept feature as it shut down my computer, if I understand correctly, your pond is basically on a hill with your gravitational filters at the bottom of said hill, if that assumption is correct then you are heading for a big problem, this is Thailand renowned for amongst other things of frequent power cuts, if your return water feed is interupted then your pond will empty itself downhill very fast.

[malcolminthemiddle]

Success

[malcolminthemiddle]

Malcolminthe middle, the gravity fed filters in my setup are in ground at the same level as the pond, as per sketch..........................

Wacky, many thanks. I hadn't considered power outages although I was planning to use solar powered pumps. I'll give it some more thought, possibly some strategically placed stop valves coupled with a drain system to empty the whole system.

[Naam]

Malcolminthe middle, the gravity fed filters in my setup are in ground at the same level as the pond, as per sketch..........................

Wacky, many thanks. I hadn't considered power outages although I was planning to use solar powered pumps. I'll give it some more thought, possibly some strategically placed stop valves coupled with a drain system to empty the whole system.

a setup with the capacity needed for a pond would cost a fortune Malcolm.

[malcolminthemiddle]

Thanks Naam,

We shall see. I plan to do an exercise on the cost effectiveness of using solar power for a number of the building services.

[Naam]

Malcolm,

i have done my homework on solar power in 2005 and i did it recently again. four years ago the investment for imported parts per peak kilowatt was approximately 145,000 Baht not including deep cycle batteries for buffering/storing. today's prices are down by 25-30%