Thai Banks To Start Charging For Atm Withdrawals ...

[Priceless]

I spend 7 months a year in Thailand so I am definately NOT a tourist.

I have used ATMs as a convenient, cost effective method of switching Sterling in Baht when I want to and when the rate suits me.

I agree entirely about the costs of maintaining an ATM network - so the fairest way is to equally share those costs amongst the people who use the ATMs, Thais and tourists. In the vast majority of cases is Thai customesr who use the bank's ATM - even in so-called tourist areas. However, tourist areas are irerelevant to the concept of those who usea service should pay for it.

Since you spend more than six months of the year in Thailand, you are as far as I know legally a resident (if you're doing it through 'visa runs' you are possibly an illegal resident, but still a resident).

What the banks do is charge everybody that is not their customer a fee for using their ATMs. If I use my SCB debit card in another Thai bank's ATM, I am charged between 20-35 baht for this service. Providing this kind of service for somebody holding a foreign card obviously entails a greater cost than a domestic transaction, and consequently should have a greater fee. However, the banks have chosen not to charge their own customers for this service, they make their profit on the total engagement with the customer. They do charge for out-of-province use of ATMs though, which is possibly based on a communications cost consideration, but to me just appears like a case of bad market strategy.

/ Priceless

Edited May 18, 2009 by Priceless

[jfchandler]

Out of the sake of public spirit-ness, I wanted to try an experiment today, so I withdrew some money from BKK Bank via ATM and my U.S. MasterCard logo debit card, and consented to pay the 150 baht fee for ONE TIME to give everyone this answer.

I wanted to see if the 150 baht fee would show up separately in my online banking, as a fee, or would be rolled into a single withdrawal amount.

Much to the chagrin of everyone who has bank accounts that reimburse for others ATM fees, I can report that the 150 baht ATM fee was not posted separately, and instead was rolled into the overall withdrawal amount. That means it will be much more difficult to obtain reimbursement for this fee, because it's not being posted as a fee.

In those kinds of cases, I had broached this subject once before with my same U.S. bank, when SCB started charging their 20 baht withdrawal fee, and it also was not showing up as a separate charge. Even in those cases, my U.S. bank advised if I send them the ATM slips showing the fee listed, which it is for both BKK Bank and SCB on their ATM receipts, they will reimburse my account. But I have to mail them the receipts to the U.S. to accomplish that.

That's the situation with just one U.S. bank, the one I happen to use often. Other banks may handle things differently. But I've yet to see any poster here indicate that the 150 baht ATM fee showed up as a separate, identified fee in their home bank's ledger. That really stinks, and I don't know why it's getting handled that way. But a fee ought to be listed/posted as a fee!!!

[wimpy]

That's the situation with just one U.S. bank, the one I happen to use often. Other banks may handle things differently. But I've yet to see any poster here indicate that the 150 baht ATM fee showed up as a separate, identified fee in their home bank's ledger. That really stinks, and I don't know why it's getting handled that way. But a fee ought to be listed/posted as a fee!!!

Agree they should be more upfront about it. I haven't tried it with the 150 baht fee, but when I take money from Ayudhya or GSB, my bank "Bank of Internet from San Diego" is refunding me some fees that are hidden in the transaction and not itemized on my statement or the ATM slip.

[Chaimai]

I spend 7 months a year in Thailand so I am definately NOT a tourist.

I have used ATMs as a convenient, cost effective method of switching Sterling in Baht when I want to and when the rate suits me.

I agree entirely about the costs of maintaining an ATM network - so the fairest way is to equally share those costs amongst the people who use the ATMs, Thais and tourists. In the vast majority of cases is Thai customesr who use the bank's ATM - even in so-called tourist areas. However, tourist areas are irerelevant to the concept of those who usea service should pay for it.

Since you spend more than six months of the year in Thailand, you are as far as I know legally a resident (if you're doing it through 'visa runs' you are possibly an illegal resident, but still a resident).

What the banks do is charge everybody that is not their customer a fee for using their ATMs. If I use my SCB debit card in another Thai bank's ATM, I am charged between 20-35 baht for this service. Providing this kind of service for somebody holding a foreign card obviously entails a greater cost than a domestic transaction, and consequently should have a greater fee. However, the banks have chosen not to charge their own customers for this service, they make their profit on the total engagement with the customer. They do charge for out-of-province use of ATMs though, which is possibly based on a communications cost consideration, but to me just appears like a case of bad market strategy.

/ Priceless

Yep, agree with your last point Priceless. However, I would argue that there is very little 'additional' cost to a 'foreign card' ATM withdrawal vs domestic card. Certainly not enough difference to justify 150 Bt vs 25 Bt !!

Should have clarified - I am in Thailand for 7/12 months from 4 visits - I am ordinarily resident in the UK according to their rules. I visit on a non-"O" visa and never stay longer than 90 days in one go.

[JimGant]

But I think I have found my answer a direct deposit to the Bangkok Bank in New York.

Ray23, are you sure about a direct deposit to the Bangkok Bank New York? As far as I can tell, they're a commercial bank, so you can't open a private account with them. They do, however, act as a conduit from your US bank to your Thai BB account, as the link you posted indicates.

Just withdrew 10,000 Baht from Ayudhaya ATM. The "fee screen" announced "Fee 0.00". I was using a Nationwide Flex account debit card.

NW Flex rides the Visa network, so Ayudhaya not yet charging. But, someone indicated this is short-lived -- expect the 150bt fee soon. (For MasterCard/Cirrus transactions, Ayudhaya is using the extortionist DCC system, as many reports on this forum have shown.)

Something that really appears very wrong to me, however, is US banks charging their customers 40-60 USD for a simple SWIFT transfer. My non-US bank charges me 5 USD for that identical service!

Is that definitely a SWIFT transfer? Or is it an Internet Electronic Funds Transfer, similar to the ACH system in the States?

[johng]

Locations of GSB in Pattaya:

There is one upstairs in Carefour.

[SurfRider]

"I've yet to see any poster here indicate that the 150 baht ATM fee showed up as a separate, identified fee in their home bank's ledger. . . . a fee ought to be listed/posted as a fee!!!"

I agree, but I suspect you can thank the gang of bandits that perpetrated this scam in the first place - "The Thai Bankers Association"

If they displayed it as a separate fee, they would invite the wrath of MANY people who use their ATMs.

If they hide it in the overall debit, most people would not even notice-- nor would they take the time to run the numbers and learn that they're being screwed.

Much like many people who have reported in these various ThaiVisa threads and were unaware of the varying exchange rates that were being charged for various different types of withdrawals at many different banks.

Some Expats apparently have been hit for both listed and hidden charges on the sending end for so long, that they think the new fee is just another unavoidable event.

Hopefully, those who have been paying attention and care something about keeping their cash transfers free, or at least very low-- have received an education and will make some changes to take advantage of it.

I can only speak for U.S. cash transfers, but it appears to me that only one major unknown remains -- What Exchange Rate does GSB use for their ATM transactions?

If it's the lower DCC rate that has been discussed here, GSB is not the deal that it appeared to be at the outset.

On the other hand, if they offer the higher rate, coupled with a maximum amount of 30,000 per transaction, as has been reported - and remain fee-free -- They will clearly be the winner in the confiscatory usury fee sweepstakes.

Other than that, it appears that the Bangkok Bank transfer via their New York branch is the best deal. Not free, but you can transfer up to $2000 for a fee of US $5 on the U.S. side, plus around an additional $5.80 on the Thai side.

Larger amounts using this channel are also the best value of all the "deals" that I've seen here.

Edited May 18, 2009 by SurfTrader

[ray23]

Well I'm half way there went by Bangkok Bank yestreday and opened an account. Now I need to is tp situp a internet transfer from my U.S. bank to Bank of Bangkok in New York. Working on that part now apparently I can do a one time thing up to six transaction per month free. Or as a monthly activity. From there web site the maximum I can be charged is 500 Baht. It's based on the amount of transfer by Bank of Bangkok.

That beats 150 baht a pop for 15k transaction, since I would need to do in excess of seven ATM transfers a month.

They insisted on giving me an ATM card for the account, my understanding was that I would have to go to the back personally and withdraw funds. Maybe that is for direct deposit only, I don't know anyway I have access to the money at any Bangkok Bank free in Udon, 20 baht fee for out of the area wihdrawels

I can withdraw from an ATM up to 50 K at a time from the Bangkok bank ATM free, in Udon.

I think I will check it out with a $100.00 transfer to make sure it's working right see what the time frames are and then do my noormal monthly withdrawel

[jgm005]

Well I'm half way there went by Bangkok Bank yestreday and opened an account. Now I need to is tp situp a internet transfer from my U.S. bank to Bank of Bangkok in New York. Working on that part now apparently I can do a one time thing up to six transaction per month free. Or as a monthly activity. From there web site the maximum I can be charged is 500 Baht. It's based on the amount of transfer by Bank of Bangkok.

That beats 150 baht a pop for 15k transaction, since I would need to do in excess of seven ATM transfers a month.

They insisted on giving me an ATM card for the account, my understanding was that I would have to go to the back personally and withdraw funds. Maybe that is for direct deposit only, I don't know anyway I have access to the money at any Bangkok Bank free in Udon, 20 baht fee for out of the area wihdrawels

I can withdraw from an ATM up to 50 K at a time from the Bangkok bank ATM free, in Udon.

I think I will check it out with a $100.00 transfer to make sure it's working right see what the time frames are and then do my noormal monthly withdrawel

I'll be very interested in what happens. I am in the same process or least going to start it. I am up in Nongbulampoo and was going to open a BKK Bank Account when I am back in BKK in a week or so. Any problems opening the BKK Bank account? I've read different stories on same.

[ray23]

No none at all, Copy of my passport , I have an annual, actually they took the number from my drivers license and a copy of the housebook. All that is to prove where you live. I got a yellow book a few years back so I used that. Took about 15 Mins Main Branch Bank of Bangkok Udon Thani. Started the account with a whopping 1K baht got an ATM card for 300 baht. That part surprised me I thought I had physically go to the bank and with draw funds. Appears not to be the case unless you do a direct deposit of retirment that can also be done but it;s abit more complicated.

The direct deposit makes me a bit nervous, there is special form for Social Security, then I woudl have to do a second formy Police Retirment , just seeem simplier to do an intrenet transfer to the New York Branch. Several guys are already doing this here and so far have had no problems. But I would sit up a close to yuor home as possible adn don have to go to Bangkok to do it.

If Nong Bua's main branch isn't famliliar with the process just have them call the main branch in Udon, they have done several.

If your renting drag yuor landlord down there with you and a copy of his housebook should do the trick

[barryofthailand]

"I've yet to see any poster here indicate that the 150 baht ATM fee showed up as a separate, identified fee in their home bank's ledger. . . . a fee ought to be listed/posted as a fee!!!"

I agree, but I suspect you can thank the gang of bandits that perpetrated this scam in the first place - "The Thai Bankers Association"

If they displayed it as a separate fee, they would invite the wrath of MANY people who use their ATMs.

If they hide it in the overall debit, most people would not even notice-- nor would they take the time to run the numbers and learn that they're being screwed.

Much like many people who have reported in these various ThaiVisa threads and were unaware of the varying exchange rates that were being charged for various different types of withdrawals at many different banks.

Some Expats apparently have been hit for both listed and hidden charges on the sending end for so long, that they think the new fee is just another unavoidable event.

Hopefully, those who have been paying attention and care something about keeping their cash transfers free, or at least very low-- have received an education and will make some changes to take advantage of it.

I can only speak for U.S. cash transfers, but it appears to me that only one major unknown remains -- What Exchange Rate does GSB use for their ATM transactions?

If it's the lower DCC rate that has been discussed here, GSB is not the deal that it appeared to be at the outset.

On the other hand, if they offer the higher rate, coupled with a maximum amount of 30,000 per transaction, as has been reported - and remain fee-free -- They will clearly be the winner in the confiscatory usury fee sweepstakes.

Other than that, it appears that the Bangkok Bank transfer via their New York branch is the best deal. Not free, but you can transfer up to $2000 for a fee of US $5 on the U.S. side, plus around an additional $5.80 on the Thai side.

Larger amounts using this channel are also the best value of all the "deals" that I've seen here.

The 150 Baht service charge does not show up as a separate charge from your Foreign bank. It just shows you withdrawing an additional $4.13. to authenticate this I withdrew 20,000 Baht from an SCB ATM, and another 20,000 Baht fro a Kasikorn ATM before they started charging the 150 Baht. Got the exact same exchange rate, although the withdrawal from the SCB ATM was $4.13 more than the Kasikorn which showed with the old name of Thai Farmers Bank.

Barry

[jfchandler]

"I've yet to see any poster here indicate that the 150 baht ATM fee showed up as a separate, identified fee in their home bank's ledger. . . . a fee ought to be listed/posted as a fee!!!"

I agree, but I suspect you can thank the gang of bandits that perpetrated this scam in the first place - "The Thai Bankers Association"

If they displayed it as a separate fee, they would invite the wrath of MANY people who use their ATMs.

If they hide it in the overall debit, most people would not even notice-- nor would they take the time to run the numbers and learn that they're being screwed.

Surftrader, I agree with your comments. But I want to clarify something for the record.

I believe most of the Thai banks that are now charging the 150 baht fee, but maybe not all, are showing it as a fee or separate charge on the paper receipts their ATMs spit out. I can't complain about that in terms of disclosure.

However, the charge apparently is NOT showing up separately when it's being posted to people's home bank accounts, which may complicate the prospect of getting reimbursed for the fee by people's home banks.

However, I like another poster mentioned have a different bank account with a VISA debit card that also reimburses me for the 1% VISA foreign currency exchange fee, and those amounts do show up as separate ledger items in my online banking. But at the end of every month, I get a credit for the sum of all those items. So it will be interesting to see how my other bank handles the 150 baht fee, if I ever decide to test it there.

[Briggsy]

Confirmed: Bank of Ayudhaya No ATM Fee

Withdrawal 10,000 Baht 3pm 18 May 2009 Exchange rate 52.413 Amount deducted from Nationwide Flex a/c £190.79

[jfchandler]

I mentioned in a prior post having done an ATM withdrawal from Government Savings Bank using my U.S. MasterCard logo debit card. Finally got the exchange results today. Here's the detail.

1000 baht withdrawal on Sunday, May 17, about 2 pm Thai time

1st charge to my U.S. account: $29.03

2nd charge to my U.S. account: 29 cents (which I believe is the 1% VISA fee this bank always shows separately)

Exchange rate based only on $29.03: 34.44 baht to the $, which was good for that day.

Exchange rate based on $29.32: 34.10 baht to the $, which is not so good.

For this particular U.S. bank account, because they reimburse for all those 1% fees at the end of the month, my real rate is the 34.44, which was/is pretty good for the recent exchange figures...

And...as yet, of course, no 150 baht withdrawal fee from GSB...

But...as previously mentioned, their ATMs DO NOT accept MasterCard logo cards.

Edited May 19, 2009 by jfchandler

[SurfRider]

"Exchange rate based on $29.32: $34.10, which is not so good."

Sorry, I'm lost -- where do the $29.32 and $34.10 come from and how do they relate to the GSB Exchange rate test?

If your 34.44 rate can be assumed for GSB, that confirms that they currently have the best ATM deal - as long as they remain fee-free.

I still need to confirm this, but it looks like the only better Exchange Rate deal may be the Bangkok Bank / New York account link - which I believe yields the ACH rate, which is higher than the 34.44 rate in the GSB test.

[jfchandler]

sorry... my bad... the 34.10 wasn't a dollar amount. I inadvertently added the "$" by mistake. the 34.10 reference was the baht to dollar exchange rate, if adding in (including) the extra 1% fee (which I get reimbursed for). So in my case, the 34.10 rate is not applicable. But it would be if I didn't get reimbursed for the 1% fee. I corrected my post above to fix that. Thanks.

[namoo]

seems to be ATM dependent. they are getting round to update to the new 150thb charge.as of 1230pm today the bank of auttaya next to foodland on soi 5 Is NOT charging the 150. just withdrew no charge.

[jfchandler]

I mentioned in a prior post having done an ATM withdrawal from Government Savings Bank using my U.S. MasterCard logo debit card. Finally got the exchange results today. Here's the detail.

This what happens when one stays out too late the night before posting...

I should have correctly said... used my VISA logo card at GSB.... GSB doesn't take MasterCards.

This whole subject, and 6 different running TV threads on basically the same topic, is giving me a headache!!!

[jfchandler]

Re Bank of Ayudhya, I'd doubt very much their ATM fee situation is varying by ATM location.

If they do start charging the ATM fee, all their ATMs will go at once... Such is the world of computer programming...

The weight of the TV reports seems to be that Ayudhya is NOT yet charging the 150 baht...

However, only use Ayudhya for now with VISA cards...Otherwise, you'll get clipped by their MasterCard dynamic currency conversion scam....

[wimpy]

I suspect Ayudhya is getting ready to add the fee. When taking out money, their ATM says "Fee 0.00". If I am not mistaken, that screen didn't exist about a month ago.

[Priceless]

Yep, agree with your last point Priceless. However, I would argue that there is very little 'additional' cost to a 'foreign card' ATM withdrawal vs domestic card. Certainly not enough difference to justify 150 Bt vs 25 Bt !!

Should have clarified - I am in Thailand for 7/12 months from 4 visits - I am ordinarily resident in the UK according to their rules. I visit on a non-"O" visa and never stay longer than 90 days in one go.

If I remember correctly (and that is a big "IF"), the Thai authorities consider you a "resident" if you have spent more than 6 months out of the last year in Thailand. (There may also be a requirement to have a non-imm visa.) Hence my phrasing "as far as I know legally a resident" above. I haven't the time at the moment to search for verification of this definition.

The additional cost for the "international part" of an ATM transaction would consist of the international communications network (which, being in Thailand, could be considerable) plus any fees levied by international intermediaries. Calculating what these costs are would not be a trivial endeavour and would require access to a wealth of information, which I am sure no Thai bank would be willing to share publicly since it would be considered business critical. (The information would include things like number of customers, volume of transactions, distribution of transactions among customers, transaction patterns and so on.) With this background I have been very careful not to express an opinion about whether 150 baht is an appropriate fee or not, just that it is surely reasonable that this fee is higher than the ones levied for domestic transactions.

/ Priceless

Edited May 19, 2009 by Priceless

[Priceless]

Something that really appears very wrong to me, however, is US banks charging their customers 40-60 USD for a simple SWIFT transfer. My non-US bank charges me 5 USD for that identical service!

Is that definitely a SWIFT transfer? Or is it an Internet Electronic Funds Transfer, similar to the ACH system in the States?

Well, it is certainly an Electronic Funds Transfer in that there are no paper documents involved. From my point of view, it is just one of many payment/transfer options included in my bank's regular Internet banking functionality. I know (assume) that the international part of the transfer is done over the SWIFT network and according to its standards, since one of the inputs required from me is the SWIFT code for the receiving bank (in my case SICOTHBK).

As far as I have been able to find out, "Internet Electronic Funds Transfer" is just a generic name for this kind of transaction.

/ Priceless

[syd barrett]

I know I have suggested this before, but instead of using ATM's in Thailand (where you lose fees and exchange rates both ends) why not make telegraphic transfers from your home bank. The money arrives in 3-4 days and the cost is much lower.

Of course ATM's are useful in an emergency but surely a sensible look-ahead to finances should provide an adequate çushion'in a Thai bank account and just top it up when required.

OK Tourists are a different matter, but probably better for tourists now to bring cash and take care of it.

[jfchandler]

In U.S. banking terms, Internet-based electronic funds transfers go by the name "ACH", which I believe stands for Automated Clearing House... Those are often free or small charge per transfer, depending on your bank. But, they require the receiving party/bank to have an ABA (American Bankers Assn.) routing number, usually 9 digits.

Since (with one exception being Bangkok Bank's New York branch) foreign banks (including other Thai banks) don't generally have ABA numbers, U.S. residents usually cannot directly ACH their funds from U.S. banks to foreign banks, to the best of my knowledge.

The other route is international wire transfers, which use banks' SWIFT codes. Generally, those involve filling out paperwork and often having to physically go into the U.S. bank to make the request. There are a few banks, I believe Citi is one of them, where certain privileged-status account holders may have the ability to use their online banking access to initiate international wire transfers, but I don't know the fee on those. And I think those kinds of instances are relatively rare among U.S. banks.

In contrast to the ACH method, which is primarily domestic and predominantly online, U.S. banks often charge pretty high fees for international wire transfers/SWIFT, averaging probably in the $40 to $60 per wire range.

I can't speak to whether non-U.S. banks are allowing online, free or little charge international funds transfers. But with the exception of the BKK Bank-New York case, I don't know of any other ability to ACH funds from a U.S. bank directly to a Thai bank.

I just noticed today that E*Trade is $25 for domestic or international wire transfers. That's a pretty decent wires price for U.S. banks, but it's hardly free. And it's not clear to me that you can initiate that with E*Trade online, though I suspect you can at least by telephone, since E*Trade doesn't have physical branches.

If anyone knows of a generally available U.S. bank account that includes free or very low cost international wire transfers, particularly with the ability to initiate them online (since many of us are here in Thailand and not the U.S.) please speak up!!!

[kennkate]

Withdrew at Ayudhya bank ATM Today No Exchange rate quoted on slip Printed on slip FEE 0.00

I will have to check online later when the sum is debited to my account as to Exchange rate

Nationwide Visa Debit card

[eek]

Just to mention..it may be possible to transfer funds via paypal. Im trying it out now, but will take 7 days or more to see if it works. Maybe someone has already done it? Anyway..will post my findings later.

[jfchandler]

Others here on TV have reported a myriad of problems with using Paypay for international funds transfer...

You should do a search on the subject. There were enough bad things said that I never pursued it further.

[eek]

Ow..ok thank you. Will look into it.

[SurfRider]

"Just to mention..it may be possible to transfer funds via paypal. Im trying it out now, but will take 7 days or more to see if it works."

This possibility was debunked awhile back in one of the many thousands of messages in one of several threads on this subject.

I can't reference the specific posts, but you could probably search it.

The hidden cost of the Pay-Pal "option" proved to be far more costly than anything else that has been discussed in these threads -- Pay-Pal was VERY good at disguising what was really happening ( no surprises there )

However, despite hard evidence, there were still people who thought they had discovered the best kept secret in the international money transfer game.

Whether they eventually woke up and sniffed the harsh sobering aroma of the coffee is unknown . . .

[donx]

Re Bank of Ayudhya, I'd doubt very much their ATM fee situation is varying by ATM location.

If they do start charging the ATM fee, all their ATMs will go at once... Such is the world of computer programming...

The weight of the TV reports seems to be that Ayudhya is NOT yet charging the 150 baht...

However, only use Ayudhya for now with VISA cards...Otherwise, you'll get clipped by their MasterCard dynamic currency conversion scam....

If I understand what you and others have said, it sounds like there are no good ways of avoiding fees with a US MasterCard. Unfortunately, this is the kind of debit card that my in-laws use to withdrawal funds. MasterCard is reported to not work with Government Savings Bank and Bank of Ayudhya will use a poor exchange rate. All other banks are now charging the 150 baht fee.

Am I understanding the situation correctly?