Using visa agents can give five years in jail

[george]

Some important news just in:

Immigration police at Bangkok’s Don Muang International Airport on Wednesday arrested two Britons and one Dutch national travelling on fake Thai visa stamps.

They face up to five years in prison for attempting to travel on forged documents.

Tour operator arrested for fake Thai visa racket - 3 farangs jailed

[Brian Allen]

Thanks for the post, George

Any TV.com recommendations as to remedy in such a circumstance?

Or as to how to preemp the risk now allegedly faced by the subject Britons and Dutchman?

Warm regards -- Brian  

[george]

Any TV.com recommendations as to remedy in such a circumstance?

Or as to how to preemp the risk now allegedly faced by the subject Britons and Dutchman?

Seek professional legal advise before they catch u.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Some Embassies might help you if you 'fess up Brian.

[taxexile]

is there anyway of following what actually happens to those people who were arrested?

these stories usually get lost,dumped and forgotten after a couple of days.

there was a story on this board a couple of weeks ago about someone who was arrested at a southern border for a similar visa agent problem, i think his girlfriend posted the story,what happened to him, does anyone know?

is there anyone who can help these people who probably assumed that these agents, as they were operating with the knowledge of the police and immigration, were perfectly legal.

yes i know that this is thailand etc. etc.

hopefully they will not be punished too severely for their crimes.

please keep us informed if you can, it would be too much to expect the bangkok post or the nation to follow these stories,after all they are only newspapers.

[Brian Allen]

<< is there anyway of following what actually happens to those people who were arrested? >>

I wish there was follow-up, too.

And would also love to know the primary reason for the arrests in at least a cross-section of the cases where arrests have occurred.

Given that there are hundreds of folks -- and maybe thousands who have been caught out with these chops -- it seems very very unlikely anyone has been arrested for what, at worst, seems to have been an error of judgement on his part.

My first hand knowledge in four cases involving allegedly fraudulent chops, in which three have been ignored during subsequent border crossings and one in which an admitted [To the interviewing officer] fraudulent Non-Immigrant Visa-holder was processed to "Retirement" status -- seems to support my intuitive "take" that more than this single issue led to the reported arrests.

Perhaps someone can alert the Pattaya Expat's Club's pro-active "rescue service" that some [Arrested] folks might need their help -- and see what that group comes up with?

Best ones -- Brian

[taxexile]

come on bangkok post/nation reporters.

sharpen your pencils and get out there and bring us some NEWS.go and interview someone in authority.

this story is of great relevence to a lot of people.

i think we should be told.

i cant imagine any embassy helping them, that would be collusion with someone who has broken the law.

but surely leniency is called for here.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

the norm is for the ' punter ' to be banged up in the IDC and as soon as he/she has the airticket in hand, Immigration take the he/she aforesaid to the airport for return to their home country. They are backlisted and can never return to Thailand.

It is said more serious cases are being looked at too. These can involve jail terms as well, after which they will be deported

and declared Persona Non Grata.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

You must have heard about Diplomatic and Consular Immunities. Embassies or Consulates cannot be guilty of anything in the terms of the Vienna Conventions on both Diplomatic and Consular Relations. International signatories to those agreements, abide by them, and mostly, enshrine them in local Legislation. Errors of Judgement don't form a part of too many legal jurisdictions as a defense.. So if this effects you ....go talk to a fellow countryman in your Embassy ASAP. And I mean ASAP.

[JT65]

Hi All

If someone has used one of these services and is still in Thailand, wouldnt it be easier to just lose their passport and show up at their embassy in Bangkok for a new one. Problem solved.

Of course maybe it is more complicated than this, I dont know. Any ideas?

[taxexile]

when you get a replacement for your "lost" passport,how can you leave the country, the passport will be blank,i.e. no entry stamp or tm card (the white card that they clip in when you enter). i think that people who lose passports here and get replacements have to go to immigration and get a stamp.

in order to get a stamp questions will have to be answered like when did you enter,

if you tell them the date of the false stamp,then they will have no record of it on their computer and on go the handcuffs, if you give them the date of the  genuine stamp (e.g. first entry to Thailand) then that will indicate an overstay and on go the handcuffs.

this situation will i feel be a big problem to a lot of people and

it really is not right to prosecute people for using a service that to a foriegner seems legit.and the thai authorities have known about for a long time. i once applied for an extension to a visa at an immigration office and the officer told me it couldnt be extended in country but a border run would be necessary, he then himself offered to take it, (along with 20 or so others on his desk), for a what i thought was a very reasonable fee as he was leaving that afternoon for the border."no problem,dont worry" was the spiel.how things have changed now.

i do feel that an amnesty for those with dodgy chops would be in order and that somebody should step forward to try and negotiate this with the immigration authorities. perhaps a falang with good connections at the ministry of foriegn affairs,or a good lawyer. does such a saviour exist??

[steffi]

Does anybody know who this arrestee was? I actually bought a ticket from that operator and remember a nice relatively young lady and perhaps her mother (and older lady) and a grouchy old man. I really couldn't careless about the old guy as he's a bit of an ####### but the young lady there seemed quite pleasant in the past.

[Rambutan]

Does anybody know if they check all of the stamps you have in your passport, or just the last one???

What if one of them is a fake but the others are genuine?

[keestha]

Dont want to sound bitchy, and sure also I think these naive people should be treated leniently, but........

Quoting taxexile "it really is not right to prosecute people for using a service that to a foriegner seems legit"

Seems legit? Most passports contain a text stating that the passport holder is only allowed to surrender the passport to competent authorities, which means foreign immigration officials or consular officials handling visas, and obviously not Uncle Noi's travel agency in the Khao San Road. Also according to the law of the country that issued the passport it is most likely strictly spoken illegal if the passport crosses a border unaccompanied by the person on whose name it is registered.

But sure, it cannot be denied that for a long time there has been plenty of room for confusion, when not only travel agencies but also lawyers offices and even some immigration officials have been playing along with this game. Many people will have naively believed that what they did was legit, and they should be let go with a warning.

[hkt83100]

I think anyone living in this country should know, that the visa-run has be performed in person. I am living here for about ten years now and I always had my trip across the border, I just enjoy a weekend off, and that's it... Just for these faked stamps, how can someone be so naive and believe in it?

Regarding the "lost passport" idea: Some friends of mine had their passport stolen in a hotel in Phuket, we had to go to Bangkok to get a  "emercency travel document" for them, and then to the Immigration office to get a new TM-Card. They checked their computer system with the arrival date and flight number and - poof! - everything about my friends was on the screen, including type of visa, passport number, birthday etc.

Cheers, and have a good visa run.

[Khun ?]

you need a police report also

[mesquite]

Any TV.com recommendations as to remedy in such a circumstance?

Or as to how to preemp the risk now allegedly faced by the subject Britons and Dutchman?

Fly to your home country, exiting Thailand at Don Muang during a busy time.  Get in the Immigration exit line that is of moderate length and seems to be moving quickly.  In other words, one where the agent appears to be rushed and is not checking every passport page.   Make sure you demeanor is calm and unhurried.  Ask a friend to be waiting by their phone should the unthinkable happen and you be detained.  Be ready to contact them via your cell phone.

In your home country, get a new passport and a then a new visa for Thailand.  Do not show the Thai consulate your old passport, which at this point has been voided.  Better to destroy it after you have the new passport.  

No guarantees, but I think the above will minimize the odds of a problem.  Also, given that there are probably thousands of phony stamps out there, 3 arrests is a very low number.

[Khun Larry]

Most passports contain a text stating that the passport holder is only allowed to surrender the passport to competent authorities, which means foreign immigration officials or consular officials handling visas, and obviously not Uncle Noi's travel agency in the Khao San Road.

How about Uncle Noi's Motorcycle rental on Ko Samui?

Seems to me all rental places require you put up your passport. Any recommendations?

[mrentoul]

Seems to me all rental places require you put up your passport.

I would refuse to surrender my passport to anyone, except an employer.

[Mai_loo]

Hi,

An american 'friend' has a visa in her passort like this and asked the following question...

Are all the reports purely on stamps? she has a thai tourist visa that was arranged from a visa agent and she paid a lot more than 2000 baht for it, the tourist visa has two entries and has already (2 month ago) been to Suan Plu for an extension and encountered no problems at all. There are exist stamps into malasia and also entry stamps back into thailand.

Are the reports people are talking about (arrests etc) only for people who got stamps for 30 days at a time or are there any reports of actual false visas as well as stamps.

Finally the visa looks very real and has already been through suan plu once - would this mean it is more than likely real?

She is rather worried to say the least.

Thank,

ML.

[george]

Where is the visa issued?

[Bob Chittie]

Seems to me all rental places require you put up your passport.

I would refuse to surrender my passport to anyone, except an employer.

Then you'd have a hard time doing many basic things in the Kingdom like just renting a bike while on holiday.

[Mai_loo]

Hi george,

The tourist visa was issued at Penang, it is one of the ones that gets stuck into the passport, it is multiple entry (2) and has all the visa numbers computer printed onto it, I am not expert but is looks pretty real, it even has all the lines vut into it to stop it from being torn out again!

The passport has already been to Suan plu once (2 months then to Suan Plu for a 1 month extension), the passport then left the country at the malaysian border (kubor) and entered thailand again Badao.

Any thoughts?

thank,

ML

[simon43]

Have to agree with mrentoul...never surrender my passport to anyone except officials.  If the bike shop won't rent you a bike unless you give them your passport, then you don't give them your passport!! Simple as that and they lose your business.  If only a few more people treated their passports as highly important documents and not as some minor bit of paper, then maybe so many people would not be in the s**t

[mrentoul]

Then you'd have a hard time doing many basic things in the Kingdom like just renting a bike while on holiday.

Really? Funny how I was never asked for one then, isn't it?

If you surrender your passport to a bike rental agency, of all things, you're a fool.

[Edward B]

Bob,

Can you tell us what basic things you do that require you to hand over your passport? Just curious.  ???

[foolwholaughsatdeath]

The  bike thing is no joke.  When I first came to Thailand, I worked/slaved as a divemaster in a small village on an island in the Gulf.  Every motorbike shop there would not rent a bike without deposit of passport.  I and other dive instructors didn't have to, but thats only because they knew us (and more importantly, where we lived and worked).  Passports were held as collateral in case there was an accident(which were all too common) and the tourist decided to just split the scene instead of paying for repairs and damage.

Maybe the village I was in was unusual, but the "kamnan" along with other shop owners and elders got together once every so often to decide and implement various rules for the village.  The bike rule was one, another was lowering the price of using the internet in shops from 3 to 2 baht a minute (as many tourists were heading to Thong Sala or Hat Rin to get this done).  

I agree that people should have had more sense with their passports, but I can understand also that when it seems the norm (as hordes of tourists were doing it) to leave your passport for a bike, or with the local agency for an "extension", one's reservations could disapear.

[parryhandy]

Then you'd have a hard time doing many basic things in the Kingdom like just renting a bike while on holiday.

Really? Funny how I was never asked for one then, isn't it?

If you surrender your passport to a bike rental agency, of all things, you're a fool.

think about it mr tool. if you ran a bike rental agency would you rent a bike out for say a month with no way of stopping jonny foreigner selling or damaging the bike and vanishing.its either a deposit for the value of the bike or your passport unless they know you which is unlikely if your a tourist.id rather leave my passport than 40k baht anyday.

dont think youd last long in the rental business.

[taxexile]

mr. parryhandy,yet more nonsense from you.

in these times of suspicion and watchfulness,it would be negligent and careless to leave ones passport for "safe keeping" with the owner of a bike rental shop.

this is exactly how passports and identities are "borrowed" for cloning.

and its those careless,naive and negligent people  who leave their passports at bike shops that make it so easy for those of a criminal intent to further those intentions.

if people refused to leave passports,the shop owners would not be able to do business,if they were unable to rent bikes they would HAVE to find another way of obtaining guarantees,which they would find very quickly.otherwise they would get hungry.they have no right to take possession of a passport.

the ease with which falangs can be parted with their passports is nothing but a joke.

in all passports it is printed that it should not be given to an

unauthorised person,on whose authority does a bike shop owner become authorised to take possession of a passport.

[marvin]

many people were asking earlier what to do with passports that you were worried might possibly have dodgy stamps in.  After talking to the British Embassy Iwas informed that they are aware of the problem and there could be actually many stamps that are fake flying aroung not just the well recognised B008.  There best advice was to come into the embassy give them your old passport at which point they will impound it and issue you with a new one. The new one you can then take to immigration for a new entry stamp and TM card etc to be placed back into your nice new passport. Of course I cannot answer for other coutries and his was only a casual talk from someone on the phone an a not an offiial quote.