The Long, Strange Trip

[ChrisP]

I've had relationship/money issues with Thai partners of two different kinds... The first was similar to that described here... where the Thai thought there was an open-wallet with no limit... and would "guilt" me into giving.. At least I didn't get the "sick buffalo" story!!

That didn't last very long.. (Thank God! )

My current relationship is much better... He still doesn't have the Western ability to budget too well, but at least he doesn't treat me like I'm the "bottomless pit". He earns only 7000baht/month, and was living in a dangerous, tiny and very nasty apartment at 2500baht/month. I agreed to help him out a little every month with his rent - to get him into something a little bigger and better (with AC!), as long as he still paid his portion as if he was in the old place.. and he's stuck to that agreement. In return I get to stay there, be taken care of (!), and not pay for hotel-rooms when I'm in LOS... Currently I'm up on the deal....!!

He also tells me when he has "the extra job" and earns more money.. and actually contributes more to the bills...

I do try and do HAI KIAD with him...

It kind of means - be courteous, honour their individuality, allow them some dignity, some free will

He's very westernised anyway - speaks excellent English.. he has a strong will, and clear opinions... definitely not one of those "Ohh, it up to youuu" boys.. which I like.! Early on I said.. "so, what do we do if we can't reach agreement.." He said "Then we talk about it until we can reach the compromise." And, we've done that. I hope that continues...!

Sometimes I just say "It up to you, honey..", and he gently tells me off for trying to be funny!

He can sometimes become bitchy and moody, but it doesn't last long.. and it's always for minor things that assume GREAT import suddenly..

I'm not Mr Perfect either.. btw. I can get moody too, and start to sound like "The Professor"...

I would say that after 10 months.. he's now pretty consistent in his ways with me. He's loving, romantic, and really sees his "job" in the partnership as "taking care" of me... In all those ways that Thai's are good at...

Maybe he will change his attitude when I move to LOS full-time.. but.. maybe not. I still have to re-assure him constantly that I'm not about to leave him. (He had other farang who did, including his Thai father who divorced...)

All in all, I think I'm very lucky with my choice...!

ChrisP

[ProThaiExpat]

In the past few years, there has been more discussion in relationship analysis on the issue of testosterone and dominance. Women have not been recognized as having testosterone and yet if you get two high testosterone individuals in the same relatioship, (the woman having relatively high testosterone for a woman) watch out, there will be strife.

I have been through relationships where the birth signs were looked to inorder to explain differences but I think the testosterone level of the individuals is a key issue. My take on it is that a blood test for testosterone levels prior to long term commitment will determine with far more accuracy the prpensity for strife.

Perhaps dominance is also nurture. I was the middle child of three boys with a dominant female as head of the family, in effect. My two brothers are carpets while I fought her all the way. My younger brother's wife once confided that she initiated all sex between them. I congratulated her as they have three children.

The consensus regarding male children of dominant females is that they end of at one extreme or the other of active vs. passive personalities.

I had one five year relationship with another alpha male, however, I had all the "tools", money, power and position so I dominated him. It is often interesting to see which of two parties in a relationship comes out dominant. There is certainly levels of dominance and I suspect the early dating ritual allows for this adjustment to see if you can just get along. This "ex", the one just prior to coming to Thailand, prophisized that I needed to select a passive Asian for a lifemate as that type of person would best suit me.

In my life now, I am dominant, but to say my Thai is passive all the time is inaccurate. He is dominant with other people all the time and also tries it with me on occasion, and I play along to make the dynamics of our relationship interesting.

I really don't have a comfortable fix on the testerone vs. the cultural dominance issue and your comments would be appreciated.

I do feel that the Thai cultural issue of avoiding conflict may lead to a misunderstanding as to a Thais dominance or propensity to be passive, especially when dealing with falang, who while not necessarily dominant in western society, would be very dominant in Thai society just by the cultural change.

[Ijustwannateach]

On Power Struggles In Relationships

There are power struggles that go on in all relationships, but I believe- or at least I hope- the power struggles themselves are only parameters for the relationship, and are not the defining qualities of the relationships- which I would hope are still love, understanding, affection, and friendship. Apparently, according to Chris, one has to make sure the sex stays there as well!

On Politeness

Steve2k, I was the one who used "fleeced," though I don't claim the other terms you quoted. I happen to believe it was an accurate description- sheep are shaved for their extra wool, and it seemed that every bit of extra cash is being harvested off ProThai for his Thai partner [there, I said it!] and that guy's family interests. ProThai did mention a bit of frustration at his partner's financial demands, and I think given that much information it would seem to any reasonable person there was something a little suspect. Granted, I'm only responding to a description of a situation in writing- so I can't say I'm the one to judge the situation.

I've seen some of the most intelligent men I've known twisted around completely by relationships with younger Thais, especially when it came to finances. Some of these men were good friends of mine, and it was painful to watch them being manipulated- while at the same time they wouldn't hear a word against their boyfriends. As a close friend of those gentlemen, it was a struggle for me to decide whether/what to tell them, and it is still is in some cases.

ProThai is a grown man who seems very reasonable and intelligent, and pretty self-aware to boot. However, we are often at our worst when it comes to romantic matters involving ourselves (as I know too well myself). It's likely enough ProThai will *not* hear these kinds of remarks from his closest friends, who would not want to upset him- *I* don't want to upset him, either- but I can probably be a more objective mirror than the people around him.

Of course, technically speaking it's none of my business- but then, this is a discussion forum and he did raise the subject, so I assume he's interested in hearing other opinions on the matter. I've also heard from friends before the painful words: "Why didn't anybody tell me?" or "if things are going this way again, please point it out to me!" I didn't mean to be rude, just direct... it's hard to find a very polite way to say that someone is too interested in your money.

ProThai, you're a big boy- and I can see from your messages that so far you're only losing money that you can afford to lose, so fair enough. Just let me say that there are plenty of relationships with decent Thais of either sex that don't require huge dowries or ongoing cash investments in their families, though it takes more time and effort to develop them. I understand, though, you've been with this guy a while and there are feelings there, plus you may feel the pressures of time more than some of us do. Maybe it suited you all along to turn over your financial life to your partner, too, and that's your plan. But what you say yourself about your friend's behavior and the areas he wants you to take money from and the things he wants you to spend it on disturb me. It would disturb me if it were my boyfriend, and it would disturb me if it were the boyfriend of someone I cared about.

"Steven"

[Steve2UK]

On Politeness

Steve2k, I was the one who used "fleeced," though I don't claim the other terms you quoted.  I happen to believe it was an accurate description- sheep are shaved for their extra wool, and it seemed that every bit of extra cash is being harvested off ProThai for his Thai partner [there, I said it!] and that guy's family interests........................

.......................Of course, technically speaking it's none of my business- but then, this is a discussion forum and he did raise the subject, so I assume he's interested in hearing other opinions on the matter.  I've also heard from friends before the painful words:  "Why didn't anybody tell me?" or "if things are going this way again, please point it out to me!"  I didn't mean to be rude, just direct... it's hard to find a very polite way to say that someone is too interested in your money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(quote edited manually by me because I haven't sussed out how to do it properly yet )

IJWT, I certainly wasn't trying to suggest not expressing opinions - after all, posting on here is implicitly inviting them and I've appreciated all of yours - just some of the language in some of the posts seemed a bit fierce.

[jdinasia]

Well,

this topic devolved badly pretty quickly! But then went onto a totally different track!

I am glad that people help their partners when and where they can. Seems to me that most of my Thai friends are not the type described here. (Including my partner of almost a year.) He's not a "poor boy from issan", he's not a "rich socially elite Chinese Thai", he's not great with money or bad with money. He's just a guy.

I don't know how many of us dated guys this much younger than we are at home (wherever that was). I didn't (and with my bias against guys that are YOUNG I just wouldn't have). I do have friends that did date much younger guys back home and they spent the same kind of money described here. Here occassionally you meet guys that actually do something with that $$. At home it seemed to be a new stereo for the car ... a new dvd changer/home stereo .... a vacation .... a new cell phone etc etc.

My issue with guys that much younger has nothing to do with the reasons most of you would think (says the mind-reader in me). It is simply that I remember how much I changed from 18-24. I don't see how relationships that start with someone that age are likely to survive in the truly long-term.

The gentleman that suggested dating guys more from a middle-class/upper middle class background seems to be spot-on. (for me at least) My mother always told my sister that when it comes to love it is as easy to love a rich man as a poor man. The issue in Thailand would be where to find them.

I got lucky. Met a man through gay.com that hit my bare minimum age qualification. Went on some dates .. then off to Krabi for Songkran last year. Decided that dating would lead somewhere when he paid for some of that trip. (I didn't care how much he paid ... just that he offered... but it turns out he paid for 1/2 the 'needful stuff' on that trip ... hotel, transport, food. ... side trips I did the negotiating and paid.)

It does seem to me that the desire to be "the important guy" runs high with farang here. I know how I am thought of by my Thai friends and am greatful for the status they offer me, but allowing them to be important as well is what has given me that place. I have one friend that is particularly naam jai, I know when to let him be the big man and how to make things work out. Usually if it is with that group of friends he pays for lunch/dinner, then afterwards for coffee/dessert I pay. In return for this level of simple kindness that takes into account the incomes of the people involved there exists a world where people watch out for other people. They'd do it without the food/coffee/dessert just as I would buy treats for friends anyways. Taking care of friends is a pleasure just as taking care of a BF is a pleasure.

I don't know where all that leads except a) why not date a guy that has some level of parity/equality with you and if you keep getting used as a wallet maybe you should think about why?

Over and over again I meet people in Thailand that tell the same story but they never look to themselves... just load blame on other people. If you find yourself dating a guy that acts just like the last guy and the guy before that etc etc. one reason could be that "they are all alike" but as adults we all know that people are different therefore upon looking for other common denominators there will only be one. Ourselves. So maybe, just maybe, if you keep dating the same type of person it is not that they are alike so much as you meet people at the same types of places, you chase the same types of guys, you are the common denominator.

I am sure I'll reread through this and possibly move it to a new thread ....

Cheers

[ProThaiExpat]

On Power Struggles In Relationships

There are power struggles that go on in all relationships, but I believe- or at least I hope- the power struggles themselves are only parameters for the relationship, and are not the defining qualities of the relationships- which I would hope are still love, understanding, affection, and friendship.  Apparently, according to Chris, one has to make sure the sex stays there as well!

On Politeness

Steve2k, I was the one who used "fleeced," though I don't claim the other terms you quoted.  I happen to believe it was an accurate description- sheep are shaved for their extra wool, and it seemed that every bit of extra cash is being harvested off ProThai for his Thai partner [there, I said it!] and that guy's family interests.  ProThai did mention a bit of frustration at his partner's financial demands, and I think given that much information it would seem to any reasonable person there was something a little suspect.  Granted, I'm only responding to a description of a situation in writing- so I can't say I'm the one to judge the situation.

I've seen some of the most intelligent men I've known twisted around completely by relationships with younger Thais, especially when it came to finances.  Some of these men were good friends of mine, and it was painful to watch them being manipulated- while at the same time they wouldn't hear a word against their boyfriends.  As a close friend of those gentlemen, it was a struggle for me to decide whether/what to tell them, and it is still is in some cases.

ProThai is a grown man who seems very reasonable and intelligent, and pretty self-aware to boot.  However, we are often at our worst when it comes to romantic matters involving ourselves (as I know too well myself).  It's likely enough ProThai will *not* hear these kinds of remarks from his closest friends, who would not want to upset him- *I* don't want to upset him, either- but I can probably be a more objective mirror than the people around him.

Of course, technically speaking it's none of my business- but then, this is a discussion forum and he did raise the subject, so I assume he's interested in hearing other opinions on the matter.  I've also heard from friends before the painful words:  "Why didn't anybody tell me?" or "if things are going this way again, please point it out to me!"  I didn't mean to be rude, just direct... it's hard to find a very polite way to say that someone is too interested in your money.

ProThai, you're a big boy- and I can see from your messages that so far you're only losing money that you can afford to lose, so fair enough.  Just let me say that there are plenty of relationships with decent Thais of either sex that don't require huge dowries or ongoing cash investments in their families, though it takes more time and effort to develop them.  I understand, though, you've been with this guy a while and there are feelings there, plus you may feel the pressures of time more than some of us do.  Maybe it suited you all along to turn over your financial life to your partner, too, and that's your plan.  But what you say yourself about your friend's behavior and the areas he wants you to take money from and the things he wants you to spend it on disturb me.  It would disturb me if it were my boyfriend, and it would disturb me if it were the boyfriend of someone I cared about.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for your expressed compassion for me IJWT, it is appreciated. I am a "big boy" as you suggested and can look out for myself. I have never been happier in a relationship and the issue discussed was posted in an attempt to offer another approach than the cold hearted NO when money issues are on the table.

My bottom line was that I let it go as far as I could due to cultural issues and the sin sot concept. Probably because I was blinded by love and because my lover comes from a very poor family (Yes don't they all and don't they all have a "sick buffalo) I felt that I would err on the side of generosity within my limits.

I have now concluded that with Thai/falang relationship, the Thai will take what is offered and if money seems to abound, why not imporove ones lot. This attitude has nothing to do with the amount of love given freely and I think where we go wrong is to consider love thus given as being conditional, no money, no love.

Thai people demonstrate through their "donations" that they earn merit through giving and the recipient doesn't express much gratitude as the giver is earning merit. Thus it could well be that a deeply committed and loving Thai can enrich himself in a relationship without automatically being a "money boy". My definition of money boy is a boy that gives love in exchange for money.

It is so easy to flush them out because saying no to a money request ensures the quick departure of the money boy.

One poster spoke of a "long con". Possible, but once the money stops, what happens to the con man. Same thing as with the money boy.

My many no's have met with understanding and resignation, with no dimunition in the love expressed or our general happy life together. His self deprivation inorder to give to ones family can be considered laudable. My love goes without on many of his personal wants inorder to give to family. If anyone is being taken advantage of it is him. He is slowly coming around to the concept that "we" are a family, and like his married brothers and sisters, he has to look out for his "family" first. They always, in his mind, got off the giving hook for his mother's needs because they had families of their own that they had to "take care of".

I think the end is in sight and he has expressed he has drawn a line in the sand regarding his families needs. Notwithstanding the above, at least as far as this Thai is concerned, there still is not an appreciation for savings for future needs and retirement planning. That will have to be my job, it is my money after all. I have two non-poster friends who have had similar experiences to mine with their long term lovers but who won't post their experiences for fear of suffering the "slings and arrows" of the quick to judge and the strong language that accompanies them.

I repeat, money is probably the most prevalent problem area in all relationships, why should it be different in Thailand. Yesterday.s movie comes to mind and the line "So what are you going to do this afternoon honey? Go out and spend your money" is the reply from the well dressed wife to the highly employed husband and most take it as a joke or a light aside. In Thaivisa, the woman would be attacked for being a money grubbing sex for sale female with no compassion for her husband.

Why do we expect Thai boys to act like the wives portrayed in "Tobacco Road"?

Edited February 5, 2005 by ProThaiExpat

[jdinasia]

There are many that won't post on here. Some because their English isn't so good, some because their egos are fragile enough to end up taking people too seriously etc.

It was a Thai friend that told me about this section of the forum. He doesn't post but often talks to me about my posts.

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok, an update... sat my feller down the other night and finally had a long talk about budgets... as I already knew, his salary was barely enough to cover the essentials of his life, much less the occasional purchase of clothing, pharmaceuticals, or a beer or two with friends. After analyzing what he'd needed to spend on these things, too, over the last few months [we actually made an Excel sheet, so all the expenses were clear], we estimated he was living about 3K beyond his means, with my help, spending on reasonable outings.

So, we made an institution of it and I told him that, as long as he's still in school and working in at least a part-time job, I'll help him maintain that level of income. I give him the difference divided weekly, so he isn't tempted to spend too much money at once (and of course has the option to save it). It's not that I'm spending less on his salary deficit- a little more than I was, probably- but that he now has the freedom to do what he likes with the money I was giving him anyway, and doesn't have to come begging for every little thing he can't afford on the ridiculous low salary they pay him. I think maybe some of the stress was over that (he is kinda proud).

If he graduates or changes his life circumstances, I told him we'd have to talk about what happens then. I also said that if he quit/lost a job, I'd certainly help him cover all the difference for up to ONE month of unemployment; after that (depending on circumstances) I wasn't making any promises.

He seemed pretty happy to hear all this, and he's been very sweet this week. Now to see how things go!

Guess this means we're probably going to be real "boyfriends" again soon!

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Wow, so you were able to present the Western concept of a budget to him, and without a background in accounting, he understood it? I'm surprised, because I really didn't know that Thais thought along those lines. Hopefully, I'm wrong. Oh, plenty of Westerners also balk at the idea of actually keeping track, following a budget, etc. It just seems against the culture here. They probably do it in some informal way.

[Ijustwannateach]

^He *was* pretty cool about it- I think he likes the idea of the security most of all. I'm pretty sure that he hasn't really figured out how to deal with it in the long run, like saving or anything- but it makes his current life possible without as much stress, and he's happy with that.

He had a rather bad week- his mobile was stolen on the BTS and he also lost his train pass. Thank goodness I got the budget worked out first! Fortunately for him, I was already considering getting a new mobile myself next month- and I'll "sell" the old one to him very cheaply, or give it to him as a birthday gift- it's probably only worth 1000B. He was about due for it- loses one a year, apparently...

Today, we're celebrating our *first* Valentine's Day together (last year he lied and spent it with his then-girlfriend, as he later admitted! ) We celebrated last night by eating out, and exchanged insufferably cute and sweet presents at home. He found a nice shirt for me, and I got him the new photo album he wanted, along with a box of chocolate (which he loves, but whenever I get him one of these things on a "special" day, he never eats it! Puts it in the fridge to "treasure" until much later! One of these days, we're going to get food poisoning that way!)

Happy Valentine's, All!

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

"Happy Valentine!" to all my Forum posters and readers (don't like the term "lurker"!..

IJWT... just hope he doesn't ask you to BUY him a new mobile...!

Don't GO there..... I know you've read all the other posts..!

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

Heh heh heh- Chris, I would eat the entire contents of my sock drawer before I would buy a mobile phone for a young Thai man. I was thinking when he told me about it, "thank God we already worked out the budget." As the cheaper, used models run about 1000-2000B each, I think they are easily within his budget. If he wants one of the fancy kind with cameras, singing doodads, and an instant coffee-maker, he's going to have to get it the old fashioned way- saving.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

^why don't you start a one-liner truism thread? Bet it'd be a laugh!

Something happened last night which taught me a lot more about both my guy and my own way of looking at things, in terms of having a long term relationship.

I have pretty much been confirmed in getting re-signed at my school for next year, much to my relief. I told my feller about it, and happened to mention in passing that this was good, as I had had doubts about whether I could stay in Thailand if I had to change jobs again. He got really quiet and "moody" [as per the other thread!]

Then later he got very upset and angry, though he continued to deny he was upset and angry, and finally had a crying fit that lasted a good 2 hours. He was talking by this point, and I had already realized that my earlier comment had initiated this.

My comment had been true- I *was* worried about whether or not I could afford to stay in Thailand without some stability in employment- but I hadn't seriously been planning a move or leaving Thailand in any active way. However, he took my comment as a sign that I didn't take our relationship as seriously as he did- which I realized is probably true. I really think that from his point of view there are very few practical considerations he would allow to become more important than being with me, which is tremendously flattering and humbling at the same time. Of course, at a certain point as a farang it is not my choice anymore- if the government tells us to leave, or makes getting the work permit too difficult or other conditions of stay too draconian, there may be no choice for some of us. I think my guy didn't understand that clearly enough. But it's true that extremely poor working conditions would tempt me strongly to leave, if they persisted long enough, despite my attachments here. I was forced to think about things a bit more seriously.

I held him and reassured him that I wasn't going to go anywhere without a fight to stay here and keep things going as well as possible, and thank goodness that for the moment- the next year, anyway- I won't have to make any difficult choices of that kind.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Steven, elsewhere you commented that if you didn't get re-signed at the same school, you'd seriously consider leaving thailand. So it was on your lips as well as on your typing fingers.

Well, at least it's good to know that he cares a lot about your relationship.

[ChrisP]

However, he took my comment as a sign that I didn't take our relationship as seriously as he did

You have to be VERY careful what you say - even in passing.. to a Thai Guy in a relationship..! The slightest inkling of less than 100% certainty gets them VERY upset...

I've done it too...

Btw, I moved SDKitty's post to new Thread - "Truisims.."...

ChrisP

Edited February 19, 2005 by ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

My guy O. threw me another curve ball this week... we made the mistake of talking about politics... ok, so he supports TRT, anybody can be mistaken politically and it's his country... but...

Somehow we got onto the topic of the people in the South. He *hates* the people in the South (so he says). He hates Muslims. He hates Indians, he hates Burmese. In short, he's one of the biggest xenophobes I've ever dated (and possibly racist, though I wasn't brave enough to delve into skin color at the time). Ironic, for someone dating a white guy from America....

I was too shocked to continue the conversation... I'm still a bit shocked by it... I've never willingly been close friends with someone so blinkered politically, much less dated someone this long. I sort of assumed that if someone were willing to date a foreigner, their horizons would be a bit more open... foolish me.

Is this typical of many young Thais (I avoid political discussion with Thais here for the obvious reasons)? Does it improve with age and/or reasoning?

I did finally get him to admit that he didn't actually know any Indians or Burmese or many people from the South, and that it was pretty foolish to say you hate people you don't know, but... he still hates them! Phew!

On consulting with my other farang friends, this is sadly a common point of view among Thais...

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

When my best friend immigrated to the USA from China, he was anti-Vietnamese (still is), anti-Black, etc. He looked way down his nose at Cantonese until he fell in love with one. Yes, there's a huge CULTURAL difference about 'racism' or discrimination against various ethnic and national groups, between the 'West' and other countries of the world. Look at the animosity between Japanese and Koreans (don't ever call one by the wrong nationality!).

Ignorance makes things worse. But class hatred is taught, and all behavior is learned. Rodgers and Hammerstein, putting into words and music James Michener's love story about the naval Lieutenant (Michener) and the Polynesian girl (his eventual wife, possibly), wrote, "You've got to be carefully taught, to hate other people whose skin is different than yours....."

[ChrisP]

I have the same problem...

My bf "hates' Muslims and Chinese Thai.. no reason is given.

He has also been the subject of a lot of "hatred" himself in High School because of his (relatively) dark skin color... which always seems to be a delicate topic in LOS. Also because he's relatively "femme" he also got a lot of ridicule.

I think a lot of this happens in High Schools, where tolerance seems sadly lacking within their peers.

ChrisP

[ProThaiExpat]

While living in Japan years ago, I came up with this truism:

"All crimes in Japan are committed by Koreans. until they catch the Japanese that did it"

Not being black, I have no idea how blacks feel about discrimination in western societies?

As a gay white man, I have experienced discrimination for being gay in the U.S., for being white in Hawaii and for being a falang in Thailand. Perhaps discrimination is a fact of life and western societies just act more politically correct while Asians are more frank about it. An anomoly when you think of how unforthcoming Asians usually are.

[Ijustwannateach]

^The same is still true in Japan, TPT, except that Koreans have become more accepted and now they blame it on the Chinese! [actual quote from a Tokyo cop: "When I hear about broken door locks, I think: Chinese!"] (hi, Heng!)

Well, it's sad. Hope the future government here adds a tolerance plank to its educational agenda.

"Steven"

[jerry921]

I agree that hatred or distrust of those who are different is reinforced by peers and often elders as well. But I think there must be some underlying human tendency toward this kind of thinking. It would be some deep psychological hardwiring, such as the fight or flight reflex that causes so much trouble now that we're not cavemen anymore. There's some underlying danger in interacting with someone from another "pack" that gets us to snarling rather than thinking. You see it even in uni-racial groups of young boys. Lord of the Flies and all that.

The idea that this kind of thinking is wrong doesn't go very far back in human history, I suspect.

I can add two amazing anecdotes as long as we're pointing the finger at Asian prejudice in particular:

Back in college I had a Vietnamese roommate who told me that the "pure" Vietnamese (like him) hated the Chinese-Vietnamese (those with Chinese ancestry) because the Chinese-Vietnamese "corrupted" the Vietnamese-Vietnamese. I asked for an example, and he said that when a Vietnamese bribes someone to do something he knows that the person bribed will do what he was paid to do, because if he doesn't, he knows you'll tell everyone in the village about it. But when a Chinese-Vietnamese bribes you and you don't do what you're paid to do he won't say anything. Thus the Chinese-Vietnamese cause lots of people to take bribes without doing what they're paid to do, and thus corrupt Vietnamese society.

My other anecdote comes from my Thai ex-bf. He said there was a Thai proverb which said "When confronted by a Cobra and an Indian you should strike off the head of the Indian first".

Edited February 25, 2005 by jerry921