Thailand's Gay Monks Given 'good Manners' Guide

[The Vulcan]

A Buddhist leader in Thailand has announced plans for a new set of guidelines to curb the behaviour of homosexual and transgender monks.

The "good manners" curriculum was devised to discourage monks from wearing make-up and tight robes.

More than 90 per cent of the Thai population are followers of Buddhism and most men spend at least one year in a monastery during their youth.

Phra Maha Wudhijaya Vajiramedhi, a senior monk, told the BBC the guidelines would address issues like smoking, drinking alcohol, walking and going to the toilet properly, which are all detailed in the traditional 75 Dharma principles of Buddhism, and the 227 precepts for monks.

But he was especially concerned, he said, by the flamboyant behaviour of homosexual and transgender monks, who can often be seen wearing revealing robes, carrying pink purses and sporting effeminately-shaped eyebrows.

Phra Vajiramedhi acknowledged that it was difficult to exclude transgender men from the monkhood but he hoped his course could at least persuade them to limit their more extrovert habits.

If successful, the "good manners" course, at the Novice Demonstration School, could be replicated at other Buddhist monasteries and seminaries, he said.

Tales of monks behaving badly are nothing new in Thailand.

In recent years, they have been accused of running fake amulet scams and violating their vows of celibacy, according to the BBC.

The guidelines will be introduced in the northern province of Chiang Rai.

Daily Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...ners-guide.html

[Boater]

transgender monks.

never seen one lol

[WinnieTheKhwai]

As monks are supposed to be free of (sexual) desire, it shouldn't really matter which team they batted for prior to becoming monks.

('Supposed' and 'Shouldn't' being the key words)

[geriatrickid]

I was under the impression that being visibly gay was grounds for a defrocking. Isn't there a rule that says homosexuuals and those with physical deformities cannot be ordained? If so, then the monk wannabe would have had to state that he wasn't gay. As a monk is not allowed to lie, then if the monk says he isn't gay, he isn't gay right? Therefore, there are no gay monks.

[The Vulcan]

I was intrigued by their inability to use the toilet "properly"

[bina]

intrigued???

[highchol]

seat up seat down maybe!

[mc2]

transgender monks.

never seen one lol

i know of one.

he/she disrobed after several months.

started taking hormones.

went on to become the "girlfriend" of one of the monks, visiting him in the room every day.

[Huey]

My Wife and I were disgusted by some pictures sent to her email of some flammingly homo monks running around with purses and kissing and fondling each other in the temple. To have any sexual desire as a monk is something to be curbed but this..this shit is just over the top. Streight men are expected to suppress their sexuality while wearing the robs, why should gays any different?

[SeerObserver]

My Wife and I were disgusted by some pictures sent to her email of some flammingly homo monks running around with purses and kissing and fondling each other in the temple. To have any sexual desire as a monk is something to be curbed but this..this shit is just over the top. Streight men are expected to suppress their sexuality while wearing the robs, why should gays any different?

They are expected to suppress it as well. More or less we know what the monastic code is and so do they. My guess is that they were either forced to ordain out of custom, and/or that the defiant component of their personality is what is causing this behavior. They know it's not in line. It would be hard to believe that they don't know about precepts or monastic behavior.

[BigSnake]

My lord what's the monk hood coming to these days. My 16 teen years in the kindgom I have only seen one gay monk that I can recall, so can't say how wide spread this gay thing is in the Monk Hood, however the Monks to my knowledge should have no sexual contact with women or in their case men, so what up with the Pink Purses, smoking, drinking(beer), both of which I have seen many times over, and in recent months in the local area one was caught red hands in the short time Hotel with a woman, none of with suprise me, it's the Pink Purse, gay thing that is a bit of a shocker.

[Jingthing]

My 16 teen years in the kindgom I have only seen one gay monk that I can recall

Do you realize how silly that statement is? Do you think all gay monks wear pink purses and makeup? Maybe you are confusing ladyboys with homosexuality, they don't always occur together. Thai males commonly become monks for some period of their lives, and that includes the gay ones. Of course, I agree monks, whatever their sexuality should behave according to the monk rules as long as they are monks; otherwise what's the point?

Edited April 29, 2009 by Jingthing

[chutai]

My Wife and I were disgusted by some pictures sent to her email of some flammingly homo monks running around with purses and kissing and fondling each other in the temple. To have any sexual desire as a monk is something to be curbed but this..this shit is just over the top. Streight men are expected to suppress their sexuality while wearing the robs, why should gays any different?

They are expected to suppress it as well. More or less we know what the monastic code is and so do they. My guess is that they were either forced to ordain out of custom, and/or that the defiant component of their personality is what is causing this behavior. They know it's not in line. It would be hard to believe that they don't know about precepts or monastic behavior.

It's hard to imagine anything more at odds with Buddhism than the suppressing of anything. To extinguish desire - something as a Mahayanist I would take issue with anyway - has nothing to do with "suppression", but all to do with conditioned/dependent arising and in viewing such as being a temporary phenomenon in any case.

Edited April 30, 2009 by chutai

[guava]

I was under the impression that being visibly gay was grounds for a defrocking. Isn't there a rule that says homosexuuals and those with physical deformities cannot be ordained? If so, then the monk wannabe would have had to state that he wasn't gay. As a monk is not allowed to lie, then if the monk says he isn't gay, he isn't gay right? Therefore, there are no gay monks.

I'm reminded of a joke

One day a mother was cleaning her son's room, and in the closet she found a S & M magazine. Unsure of how to confront her son, she hid the magazine until his father got home. She showed her husband what she had found while she was cleaning. He looked at the S & M magazine and handed it back to her without a word.

She finally asked him, "Well, what should we do about this?"

He looked back at her hesitantly and said, "Well, I don't think you should spank him."

What I'm trying to say - I'm not sure de-frocking gay monks is the answer

I'd barely got that image out of my head when i though of the hilarious spoof trailers at the start of Tropic Thunder. The one for Satan's Alley was hilarious. http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/8/Sa...ler-559010.html

I'm not sure on the rules re: ordaining, or at what stage a monk is considered ordained, but I've seen several albino Buddhist monks, and a monk with Elephantiasis.

Monks buying top-end gaming 3D video cards, bumming cigarettes, and flirting with chicks at Panthip doesn't really help the cause either.

Mind you I've fairly indifferent about it all – I just find it all a bit amusing. To a point anyway. Celibacy or abstinence isn't normal or healthy - and it's clearly too much to ask of some men of the cloth - of all faiths. When circumstances allow and/or drive these men into truly abhorrent abuses of trust, criminal sexual activities, etc (which are then often covered up) - we really need to question whether we should expect monks, or any religious folk, to be celibate. It could also be argued that spending 24 hours a day in the company of other men, showering and sleeping side by side etc, may possibly lead to some of them switching teams. Nature nuture blah blah blah.

I don’t think any religion is likely to change the rules tomorrow, but perhaps we should all just turn a blind eye to minor (many would say healthy) lapses. As for the ability of a celibate man or woman to provide relationship advice, or any relevant life advice really, to us lesser mortals – could we find anyone less qualified, or less in touch with reality? It's like asking a homeless man for stock market tips, or a bar girl for English lessons.

[onni4me]

My Wife and I were disgusted by some pictures sent to her email of some flammingly homo monks running around with purses and kissing and fondling each other in the temple. To have any sexual desire as a monk is something to be curbed but this..this shit is just over the top. Streight men are expected to suppress their sexuality while wearing the robs, why should gays any different?

Oh, I can't stand people who get disgusted so easily...

Your statement reminds me of the reasons why I have never felt at home with any religious groups. There are just too many people like you making judgement over others.

Doesn't it make you feel superior that you and your wife can feel above others? Especially sexually deviant people? Does that make you feel good? I am disgusted. I think I have the same rights as you feel whatever I want. Yes?

[toptuan]

My lord what's the monk hood coming to these days. My 16 teen years in the kindgom I have only seen one gay monk that I can recall, so can't say how wide spread this gay thing is in the Monk Hood, however the Monks to my knowledge should have no sexual contact with women or in their case men, so what up with the Pink Purses, smoking, drinking(beer), both of which I have seen many times over, and in recent months in the local area one was caught red hands in the short time Hotel with a woman, none of with suprise me, it's the Pink Purse, gay thing that is a bit of a shocker.

Probably much more common than you think. My very first week in Thailand, I ran into a couple of very effeminate young monks who quickly gave me their telephone number along with an invitation to visit their Wat. Wasn't hard to read between the lines.

That was over six years ago, and in the outback of Isaan. At that time, quite a surprise to me. Now, wouldn't surprise me at all.

[stkyricesf]

Gee you must have some really great friends to send you pictures like this.

And for you and your wife to open and look at them... my my my

[mrdome]

Sometimes I feel like some posters use this forum to make everything their problem.

It's hard to imagine anything more at odds with Buddhism than the suppressing of anything.

Monks and nuns are supposed to follow the rules as laid out in the Vinaya. These rules apply regardless of sexual orientation, which thankfully, the Buddha didn't have any hang ups about.

In general I'd say that Buddhism teaches cause and effect as well as the negative outcome of desire and leaves the final choice to you after informing you of the 'price' of your behaviour. I wouldn't interpret this with the statement I quoted above "don't suppress any urge".

Edited May 3, 2009 by mrdome

[kunjet]

My Wife and I were disgusted by some pictures sent to her email of some flammingly homo monks running around with purses and kissing and fondling each other in the temple. To have any sexual desire as a monk is something to be curbed but this..this shit is just over the top. Streight men are expected to suppress their sexuality while wearing the robs, why should gays any different?

can u post these pics?

[khaowong1]

I was intrigued by their inability to use the toilet "properly"

monks are not supposed to stand up and pee.. they are supposed to squat... I know this from personal experience from when I was a monk at Wat Phut U Dom in Lam Luk Kha... I was always be admonished for standing up and peeing..

[khaowong1]

I was under the impression that being visibly gay was grounds for a defrocking. Isn't there a rule that says homosexuuals and those with physical deformities cannot be ordained? If so, then the monk wannabe would have had to state that he wasn't gay. As a monk is not allowed to lie, then if the monk says he isn't gay, he isn't gay right? Therefore, there are no gay monks.

I'm reminded of a joke

One day a mother was cleaning her son's room, and in the closet she found a S & M magazine. Unsure of how to confront her son, she hid the magazine until his father got home. She showed her husband what she had found while she was cleaning. He looked at the S & M magazine and handed it back to her without a word.

She finally asked him, "Well, what should we do about this?"

He looked back at her hesitantly and said, "Well, I don't think you should spank him."

What I'm trying to say - I'm not sure de-frocking gay monks is the answer

I'd barely got that image out of my head when i though of the hilarious spoof trailers at the start of Tropic Thunder. The one for Satan's Alley was hilarious. http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/8/Sa...ler-559010.html

I'm not sure on the rules re: ordaining, or at what stage a monk is considered ordained, but I've seen several albino Buddhist monks, and a monk with Elephantiasis.

Monks buying top-end gaming 3D video cards, bumming cigarettes, and flirting with chicks at Panthip doesn't really help the cause either.

Mind you I've fairly indifferent about it all – I just find it all a bit amusing. To a point anyway. Celibacy or abstinence isn't normal or healthy - and it's clearly too much to ask of some men of the cloth - of all faiths. When circumstances allow and/or drive these men into truly abhorrent abuses of trust, criminal sexual activities, etc (which are then often covered up) - we really need to question whether we should expect monks, or any religious folk, to be celibate. It could also be argued that spending 24 hours a day in the company of other men, showering and sleeping side by side etc, may possibly lead to some of them switching teams. Nature nuture blah blah blah.

I don't think any religion is likely to change the rules tomorrow, but perhaps we should all just turn a blind eye to minor (many would say healthy) lapses. As for the ability of a celibate man or woman to provide relationship advice, or any relevant life advice really, to us lesser mortals – could we find anyone less qualified, or less in touch with reality? It's like asking a homeless man for stock market tips, or a bar girl for English lessons.

not sure what temple you been hanging at, but I've been a monk here in Thailand, and have stayed at many, many temples, and have never seen monks taking showers together or sleeping side by side...that's a new one on me...

[camerata]

There's an opinion on this by a columnist in the Bangkok Post. A couple of quotes:

"If they were to ask me, I would say the solution is simple: Can't extinguish the burning flame of desire? Defrock them. They don't deserve to be monks. But you see, such solution would never be accepted, because it will open a big can of worms. If we start to defrock monks because they don't follow the principles of Buddhism and are enslaved by desires, then many temples will be emptier than the bottle of whiskey on my table at the end of the Elle party."

"It was my father who said: 'Living at a temple among the monks is the best way for a man to lose faith in religion.'"

[sabaijai]

Teaching novice monks manners

‎Apr 26, 2009‎

The Nation

Phra Maha Wudhijaya Vajiramedhi, director of the Vimuttayalaya Institute, will launch the country's first "good manners" curriculum for novice monks next month.

The curriculum, to be introduced at the Novice Demonstration School founded by the monk in Chiang Rai's Chiang Khong district, was aimed at educating novices so that they would have more appropriate manners and solving the problem of homosexual novices and monks.

The good manner curriculum comprises 75 Dharma principles focusing on the proper behaviour of monks and novices as taught by the Lord Buddha in Buddhism's 227 precepts.

"When the Lord Buddha was a prince, he was educated by his royal household. As a result, he had really good manners and was admired by Buddhists.

"The school has decided to introduce the curriculum to teach novices because he did not want people to lose their faith in novices and monks due to unbecoming conduct," said Wudhijaya, also known as W Vajiramedhi.

"Every novice studying at the school will be taught the curriculum. We'll also evaluate how much the curriculum can help inculcate good manners in novices. If it succeeds in improving their manners, I'll expand the curriculum to other novice schools nationwide."