Dross

[bartender100]

I've read most of Stephen Leather's books,they are not all set in Thailand,and the majority of them I have enjoyed,just finished Hardlanding,set in a UK jail.

[RDN]

I've read most of Stephen Leather's books,they are not all set in Thailand,and the majority of them I have enjoyed,just finished Hardlanding,set in a UK jail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've got 4 of his books and read Private Dancer 3 or 4 years ago in two sittings. I recommend it to any newbie - it's easy to read, has an interesting way of telling the same story from 3 or 4 peoples' perspectives and will probably generate a few "been there, done that" nods of the head while reading it. I thought it was excellent.

[ProfessorFart]

I don't think there's anything wrong with these novels. They're airport reading, nothing serious and good page turners

If they were taken that way then fine but many folks seem to think that they are somehow representative of Thailand expatriate life, which as well all know they are not.

[pautai]

these writers appeal to newbie farangs but to old hands who have been there done it and have the T shirt its tedious tosh ,

Ooooooh! I am unworthy; I bow down before you oh wisened one

Yes I too am on my knees already. These old hands really know their thing. As a newbie, only been living here since more than twenty years I feel I have to shut up

well if you have been living there 20 years you must be suffering from lack of mental stimulus and talking daily gibberish with thais so any reading matter must seem great .its kinda cumulative dulling effect on the brain ..

BTW lick my boots while you are down on your knees you dog ...

[mbkudu]

For  a retro view on the bar scene try Jack Reynolds "A woman of Bangkok", although I think now out of print.

Absolutely agree, that book is different class to all the present dross. Written in the 1950s I think, quite a fascinating read. Describes a Thailand that is a different world to the present semi-industrial/semi-developed country. Equally fascinating to see how the mindsets, tactics, modus operandi of those in the bar scene has not changed one little bit.

Trying to think of that French expression about "plus ca change"

I looked on Amazon for this book and the cheapest used paperback is $US 69.95

and one in good condition, $US 79.95. Must be a very rare book.

[srisatch]

The Jack Reynolds book is almost impossible to find cheaply-indeed if at all. It is also pretty good. I don't know why White Lotus/Orchid/Asia Books or whatever don't re-issue it. It was re-issued once in 1992 by DK I think..oh yes here it is..You could try the best secondhand book site which is www.abebooks.com....where the DK edition is $40 and you can get a hb for $100....Amazon, of course, bears as much resemblance to a bookshop is it does to a river.

The think I found worrying about Leather is that he claims he is not the subject of the book..in which case he has either gulped one or more people's lives whole or he has ripped off something someone has written. I don't believe he could have written it else.

I found it incredibly sentimental, naive and tedious. Best book written about the bar scene?? Good grief

Likewise the 'Bard of Thermae'...there were even posters of his books on the b***** wall at one stage. The only good metaphor he had was the one about..The Ice Zone...Needham is a professional script -writer

But I've been on the road..I'll have to think about Good Reads tomorrow...

[charles]

The Jack Reynolds book is almost impossible to find cheaply-indeed if at all. It is also pretty good. I don't know why White Lotus/Orchid/Asia Books or whatever don't re-issue it. It was re-issued once in 1992 by DK I think..

Yeah I bought the DK edition (new) in early 1998. I'm amazed it is so rare and even valuable now. I wonder if it could be found in Khao San second hand book shops?

Edited February 2, 2005 by charles

[The_Moog]

The think I found worrying about Leather is that he claims he is not the subject of the book..in which case he has either gulped one or more people's lives whole or he has ripped off something someone has written. I don't believe he could have written it else.

Don't be too worried, fiction writers are traditionally skilled at making things up!

[srisatch]

The think I found worrying about Leather is that he claims he is not the subject of the book..in which case he has either gulped one or more people's lives whole or he has ripped off something someone has written. I don't believe he could have written it else.

Don't be too worried, fiction writers are traditionally skilled at making things up!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course-but that is what is depressing about Private Dancer-stupid title, too-is that I don't think there is any way it is made up! It's probably tweaked at the edges..and it contains at least two episodes that are the stuff of Twentieth C Thai Myths..eg.the pick-up truck story

It is interesting to note that many of the ‘novels’ about Thailand or set in Thailand have not been published by established publishers. I cannot believe that is for lack of a decent agent or prejudiced publishers’ readers. It is just that most of the books are pretty unreadable unless you happen to want to read about yourself. It must be annoying to Moore, who presumably thinks of himself a s novelist, that his best book is Heart Talk!

But if I wanted to read fiction about the Far East ….

I would go for classic Japanese writers like Yasunari Kawabata, Junchiro Tanizaki, Yukio Mishima or The Philippine novelist Arlene J.Chai, Catherine Lim in Singapore, Fernando Toer in Indonesia. etc, even S.Tsow’s Jasmine Nights is better than Western fiction set in and/or about the East. There is now a wealth of great Chinese fiction in translation, too. There are better books too by US based Chinese and Korean writers. Kazuo Ishiguro, is I think, a great writer. Apart from not being very well written it is difficult to put a finger on what is wrong with ‘Thailand’ novels. I think partly it is because there is some attempt to ‘explain’ both Thailand and the Thais as well as the writer. Leather, Moore, Barrett, Needham all seem to be more interested in this explication than in telling a ‘good story’. The characters are all one-dimensional and the stories and settings banal, straining to capture the ‘essence of Bangkok’. It is not a recent phenomenon. There have been dreadful ‘Dusky Oriental Maiden’ books for decades. I collect them as they have wonderfully lurid dustjackets!

I suppose if I was Thai I would not want to read novels about the ‘adventures’ of Thais in Amsterdam or Paddington brothels. There seems, too, to be by comparison little written about the bars of Angeles or Manila, though I should have thought there were as many westerners married to Filipinas as Thais. So what prompts these books? Are there the same kind of books written in German and Swedish? Or is it a British/N.American genre?

[aaaaaa]

these writers appeal to newbie farangs but to old hands who have been there done it and have the T shirt its tedious tosh , i am just glad i got my time in when the Bar scene was exciting and off the wall and open all hours .

my gawd there is some rough women at the Nana complex these days

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wow wow! such a farce and fuss from sooooooo ADVANCED member, huh?

how many number of posts separate you from those "newbies"!

how long ago you were "newbie" yourself?

funny that some ppl in this Forum still try to do some funny "discriminations" against so called "newbies" ! it is so relative category! some newbie can become senior or whatever next level of membership in one day if he makes certain amount of posts .... and then from other side many ppl who follow this Forum for years might simply forget or even not bother to remember their member ID and password - and simply open a new one to make some comment and then dissapear for year or two.... and of course many "big sharks" or other "fishes" if they wanna make some risky post - would definetely do that from some other ID, not from their regular one.....

[cdnvic]

I think he meant newbie to Thailand, not the forum.

More posts don't make a person any smarter... just more prolific.

cv

[Shola]

I think he meant newbie to Thailand, not the forum.

More posts don't make a person any smarter... just more prolific.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or a just a plain ol' Blabbermouth

[aaaaaa]

sorry if this may be a bit out of topic here, since this thread about expats authors. but may be it won't be so much, coz it is related a bit - coz this is about Thailand nevertheless.

I've read book DEMOCRACY SHAKEN & STIRRED by WIN LYOVARIN, - it is in English and quite nicely written. although a fiction, it reflects real events and historical events in Thailand.

the point of my this post is: I think it is always better to read what people of particular country have to say about their own country and themselves from their own point of view and from within their values, culture, tradition, way of perception and understanding etc. than from some expats point of view. after all most of expats writers have quite similar opinions - that Thailand is bla bla, cheap sex etc. and also - they are catering for those potential readers who would buy their books in the stores with English lang. literature in Thailand. and who are most of these potential readers? short-time visitors or same sex-tourists, or expats with same kind of opinions about THailand? that's why they make storylines "interesting" - sex, mafia, Thai all kinds of sins..... has any of expats authors ever written something about real life of Thais and this country? I just wanna know - if someone here can suggest, I'd gladly try to read that.

that's why I decided to try read something written by Thai authors. and actually there are quite few of them - not less than those expats authors in fact. one other good book I'd suggest is : FOUR REIGNS by Kukrit Pramoj. at least to me it gave few realizations of "Thai ways" or why somethings are so....

just now I found his other book, which I haven't seen b4 : MANY LIVES - I think I'm gonna try it.

there is another quite famous and popular Thai author - forgot his name.... many books by him.

anyway...

[srisatch]

sorry if this may be a bit out of topic here, since this thread about expats authors. but may be it won't be so much, coz it is related a bit - coz this is about Thailand nevertheless.

I've read book DEMOCRACY SHAKEN & STIRRED by WIN LYOVARIN,  - it is in English and quite nicely written. although a fiction, it reflects real events and historical events in Thailand.

the point of my this post is: I think it is always better to read what people of particular country have to say about their own country and themselves from their own point of view and from within their values, culture, tradition, way of perception and understanding etc. than from some expats point of view. after all most of expats writers have quite similar opinions - that Thailand is bla bla, cheap sex etc. and also - they are catering for those potential readers who would buy their books in the stores with English lang. literature in Thailand. and who are most of these potential readers? short-time visitors or same sex-tourists, or expats with same kind of opinions about THailand? that's why they make storylines "interesting" - sex, mafia, Thai all kinds of sins..... has any of expats authors ever written something about real life of Thais and this country? I just wanna know - if someone here can suggest, I'd gladly try to read that.

that's why I decided to try read something written by Thai authors. and actually there are quite few of them - not less than those expats authors in fact. one other good book I'd suggest is : FOUR REIGNS by Kukrit Pramoj. at least to me it gave few realizations of "Thai ways" or why somethings are so....

just now I found his other book, which I haven't seen b4 : MANY LIVES - I think I'm gonna try it.

there is another quite famous and popular Thai author - forgot his name.... many books by him.

anyway...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't like Kukrit. Many Lives is about a bunch of people who all die on the same boat. So you get vignettes of Thai stereotypes..read by all means. It is in Print and in Kinokuniya. You have to remember that until recently Thai writing was like Thai Painting. Formulaic..and Copies were the highest Art Form...There is a lot of good Contemporary Thai writing, but mostly it is not translated. Same prejudice as not wanting Westerners to speak Thai? I dunno

[Shola]

sorry if this may be a bit out of topic here, since this thread about expats authors. but may be it won't be so much, coz it is related a bit - coz this is about Thailand nevertheless.

I've read book DEMOCRACY SHAKEN & STIRRED by WIN LYOVARIN,  - it is in English and quite nicely written. although a fiction, it reflects real events and historical events in Thailand.

the point of my this post is: I think it is always better to read what people of particular country have to say about their own country and themselves from their own point of view and from within their values, culture, tradition, way of perception and understanding etc. than from some expats point of view. after all most of expats writers have quite similar opinions - that Thailand is bla bla, cheap sex etc. and also - they are catering for those potential readers who would buy their books in the stores with English lang. literature in Thailand. and who are most of these potential readers? short-time visitors or same sex-tourists, or expats with same kind of opinions about THailand? that's why they make storylines "interesting" - sex, mafia, Thai all kinds of sins..... has any of expats authors ever written something about real life of Thais and this country? I just wanna know - if someone here can suggest, I'd gladly try to read that.

that's why I decided to try read something written by Thai authors. and actually there are quite few of them - not less than those expats authors in fact. one other good book I'd suggest is : FOUR REIGNS by Kukrit Pramoj. at least to me it gave few realizations of "Thai ways" or why somethings are so....

just now I found his other book, which I haven't seen b4 : MANY LIVES - I think I'm gonna try it.

there is another quite famous and popular Thai author - forgot his name.... many books by him.

anyway...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I think a good book to try might be Phra farang by Peter Pannapadipo, I'm pretty sure his view of Thailand is fairly unjaded considering.

[aaaaaa]

I think he meant newbie to Thailand, not the forum.

More posts don't make a person any smarter... just more prolific.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, but again - how does one or in this case he decides who is new or not to Thailand? again by that member status in this Forum?

at least so far it appears so from all the comments about newbies.

and then - is it necessary at all to use such adrressing at all: "hey, u, newbie" ! bla bla.... sort of intimidating style - like only those who are 'old enough' here have the right for opinion or even a word. many people in fact are members for years, but have barely written more than couple of posts, because they are afraid of being ridiculed by such "seniors".... I've done such research once - somehow Forum's system enables to do that. try it youself and see - how many people are registered as members and how many posts they in fact contribute, and who are those "regulars".... you would be surprised.

simply go to the main starting page of this Forum, and scroll down to the bottom where is Board Statistics section.

Our members have made a total of 266,993 posts

We have 16,272 registered members

The newest member is moogood

Most users ever online was 1,187 on 2004-12-29 02:08:24

there is also facts about Today's top 10 posters and Overall top 10 posters.... of course Dr and George are # 1 and #2 there, lopburi3 the Award winner is # 3.... who is one of 4 members in the top 10, others are Admins and Mods....

well, yeah, you are also Moderator, although # 47 (at least in top 50 if not 10 ), me somewhere between 150 and 200 , and pautai - somewhere between 550 and 600, even though he is not newbie to Thailand if to believe himself and you....

and then, is the proof of my point:

members with less then 10 posts , who are newbies accordingly, begin from page (if 50 results per page) 38 to .... 324 ! which means roughly (324-38) X 50 = 286 X 50 = 14'300 registered members of 16'272 fall into this newbies category ! quite a lot, huh?

a lot of people who's joined in 2002 are still Validating and have 0 or only 1 post !

Member List

(results sorted by Join date) - are they new to Thailand or not? who and how knows? would ever know - unless they start posting and show in their opinins and provided info what is their real level of knowladge about Thailadn and its ppl ?

and main thing - why they keep quite? yes, all sort of reasons can be suggested. but I'm sure one very common is - that some people intimidate others by such offensive and mocking addressing as newbie. although there are many other words too. many people who come to this Forum are from all over the world, because Thailand is famous and popular destination. so, they don't speak or especially write english fluently enough. and even smallest remark in their direction would discourage them from participating. is it fair?

it is sort of like names-calling : "hey u, newbie"... or like I saw recently eslewhere, may be even by same person: "hold your horses, newbie"! like only newbie should hold horses, and those who ain't newbies don't have to ! so funny ! in fact newbies generally hold their horses more than those seniors and other non-newbies....

not to mention that perhpas some people who may have come for very first time to this country can understand some particular point or aspect about it or its people much much better then those who live here for decades, in their own unpenetrable buble of their expats world, sticking out their head to encounter some contact with surrounding reality simply to filter those moments and experiences and feelings etc. through their prism of negativism and self-imposed confidence that they know everything here and just get in this way some confirmation of their unshakable conception..... which are BTW more often WRONG .

I think it would be fair and more encouraging for all people who come to this Forum if such remarks and labeling would stop. otherwise it creates unhelthy athmosphere. those who have "long lashing" tongue and can survive in such rambling of words and phrases , can survive as regular participants in this Forum, others get intimidated by "seniors" or "regulars" and decide to fade away. although perhaps they could've contributed a lot of postivie and realy usefull things to this informative Forum - instead and unlike most of those who become "seniors" who become seniors by writing steady number of posts daily which consist only of one line or few words of "smart-a$$ness" and /or abuse, insults, bahsing THailand etc.... like that fabulous fly who always looks for $hit comparing to bee who is looking for nectar - such people never sieze to surprise by their endless ability to be always everywhere and posino by their negativism any thread.....

well, yeah a lot of changes do occur. some thread for newbies was started, and throlling is booed, and offensive posts deleted and persons responsible punished or bannned.... sure - that is good positive change. but still there are many people who like to make such discriminations as calling names "newbies" etc. and that pisses me off all the time, although I told myself many times not to get involved in any brawls with negatively minded people.

[aaaaaa]

.....There is a lot of good Contemporary Thai writing, but mostly it is not translated. Same prejudice as not wanting Westerners to speak Thai? I dunno

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, may be it is rather opposite - for westerners to learn Thai to be able to read those books which ain't translated?

BTW - can you recommend some if you know the names? I would ask my wife to find and may be read for me. not sure though it would work this way.

[RDN]

...More posts don't make a person any smarter... just more prolific.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"prolific" ? Have anyone in mind, mate?

.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

P.S. I just read your long post, aaaaaa, but not quoted it because it's so long. We mods try to stamp out newbie-bashing, and if any member wants to report such posts to us mods, please do.

Edited February 2, 2005 by RDN

[Doctor John]

Personally I have no interest at all in Reading 'Private dancer'.

I can form my own opinions of people and am not interested in some sex tourists account of how the girl he was exploiting was not all he EXPECTED her to be!!!

(Why don't these exploited poor people behave in a decent manner whilst we travel thousands of miles to benefit from their situation eh?) Sick attitude!!

That it is recommended as vital reading by some twerp that has been to Thailand for a 3 week holiday and is sitting thousands of miles away whilst I am in Thailand since 1990, is enough to put me off for life.

OK for guys (sex tourists), sitting in another country missing the bar scene I guess.

Myself, I prefer 'The Bible'.

[srisatch]

.....There is a lot of good Contemporary Thai writing, but mostly it is not translated. Same prejudice as not wanting Westerners to speak Thai? I dunno

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, may be it is rather opposite - for westerners to learn Thai to be able to read those books which ain't translated?

BTW - can you recommend some if you know the names? I would ask my wife to find and may be read for me. not sure though it would work this way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Writers my wife likes are:

Chatr Kobjitti

Kharnsing Srinawk

Maitree Limpichart*

Anchan

Samruam Singh

Sri Dao Ruang?*

Botan*

Sri Burapha*

Kampoon Boontawee*

Surangkanang,K*

Prechapoul Boonchuay

The ones with * are I think translated if you can find them!

There is also: Klaus Wenk: Thai Literature an Introduction. White Lotus. BKK 1995

And

Herbert Phillips. Modern Thai Literature Hawaii 1987

Benedict Anderson’s In The Mirror still is of relevance

As you see she, and I for that matter, are rather keener on women authors…

[paulfr]

I have a softback copy of A Woman Of Bangkok" if anyone is interested in buying. PM me.

Private Dancer may not be great literature, but I agree with RDN that it is nearly required reading for the clueless newbie to LOS. I personally enjoyed it very much.

[rndreyfuss]

Check out this list - pretty comprehensive and you can add reviews:

http://thailand-uk.com/eve/ubb.x?a=frm&s=41710441&f=76010002

[srisatch]

Check out this list - pretty comprehensive and you can add reviews:

http://thailand-uk.com/eve/ubb.x?a=frm&s=41710441&f=76010002

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes but it is just a list of the kind of farang dross we are grumping about

[RDN]

Check out this list - pretty comprehensive and you can add reviews:

http://thailand-uk.com/eve/ubb.x?a=frm&s=41710441&f=76010002

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would love to, except that Thailand-UK won't accept Hotmail or Gmail addresses. Must be a very quiet site.

[RDN]

I read Private Dancer years ago  (give us a clue Thad... ok ... less than 6 and more than 4) .... I read it in one sitting, and it has single-handedly been the only reason why I have never ever read any other fictional work about LOS written by a farang since, and I have no intention of doing so in the future.

I'm with kreon on this one...... Shakespeare can get a little tedious though, and his recipes are awful

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

re. your post/review of Private Dancer on tha Thailand-UK site - if you want the PDF, PM me

[Thaddeus]

I read Private Dancer years ago  (give us a clue Thad... ok ... less than 6 and more than 4) .... I read it in one sitting, and it has single-handedly been the only reason why I have never ever read any other fictional work about LOS written by a farang since, and I have no intention of doing so in the future.

I'm with kreon on this one...... Shakespeare can get a little tedious though, and his recipes are awful

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

re. your post/review of Private Dancer on tha Thailand-UK site - if you want the PDF, PM me

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks but, I think I'll pass..... I may pass this link onto Mervyn though, and he can ask directly

P.S. yep, Thailand-UK is nowhere near as busy as this site is .... the non-acceptance of hotmail addresses is intentional, granted it does mean that a few people who may like to get in can't, but, it is the best troll-filter going

[RDN]

..... yep, Thailand-UK is nowhere near as busy as this site is .... the non-acceptance of hotmail addresses is intentional, granted it does mean that a few people who may like to get in can't, but, it is the best troll-filter going 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am soooo jealous of their mods!

[Thaddeus]

..... yep, Thailand-UK is nowhere near as busy as this site is .... the non-acceptance of hotmail addresses is intentional, granted it does mean that a few people who may like to get in can't, but, it is the best troll-filter going 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am soooo jealous of their mods!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not surprised.... they don't have to work anything like as hard

[Iwrote it]

I've read most of Stephen Leather's books,they are not all set in Thailand,and the majority of them I have enjoyed,just finished Hardlanding,set in a UK jail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you, kind sir.

The new one, Soft Target, is in Asia Books and Bookazine as we speak...the continuing adventures of Spider Shepherd....

[Iwrote it]

Personally I have no interest at all in Reading 'Private dancer'.

I can form my own opinions of people and am not interested in some sex tourists account of how the girl he was exploiting was not all he EXPECTED her to be!!!

(Why don't these exploited poor people behave in a decent manner whilst we travel thousands of miles to benefit from their situation eh?) Sick attitude!!

Hmmmm.... while I'm all in favour of free speech, Dr John, wouldn't it be better to hold off pontificating until you've actually read it....