Isaan People Killing Off Their Own Language

[Rikker]

Things to know before making judgments about Isan Thai:

1. Isan Thai is a fully formed language, in no way is it a "pidgin" or "creole", both of which have technical academic definitions, and neither of which are relevant here.

2. Isan is closely related to Lao, and in fact outnumbers Lao by number of speakers. However, Isan has many regional dialects, just like any fully and naturally formed language does.

3. The Lao and Thai scripts and the Lao and Thai languages have developed independently, though obviously with contact between and influence upon one another. Lao is not a lazy, corrupt, or backwards version of Thai. They have their own traditions, with their own writing systems dating back centuries.

4. Despite having an enormous number of native speakers, Isan is a "minority" language, and marginalized in Thai society. "Standard Thai", and specifically Bangkok Thai, has prestige in Thai society. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. But that in no way makes it a more superior or more intelligent language. This is largely a historical accident, in the same way that Parisian French or Castillian Spanish have become the standards for their respective languages. There is no inherent superiority to Bangkok Thai, and there is no inherent defect or inferiority to Isan Thai, or any other Thai language.

6. The Thai regional "dialects" are languages. It is perhaps only appropriate to talk of dialects within the respective regions, i.e. Khorat Isan vs. Mahasarakham Isan. The several Thai languages have high lexical similarity with each other, in much the same way that French, Spanish, and Italian do. But, for example, Italian and French are said to have 87% lexical overlap -- that is, nearly 9 of 10 words have the same etymological root (usually Latin). Not only are Italian and French not the same language, but they each have their own diverse dialects and variants. The same applies in Thailand, though the actual similarities/differences will not be precise parallels.

7. "Standard" when applied to any language is a dubious term. Standard just means "approved by those in power." So while I may refer to Standard Thai, understand that I'm using it because to use such terms is conventional. I don't mean to imply any necessary superiority to it; it's just the culturally dominant language.

There's more to be said here. Some of the observations made about the usefulness/prestige value of speaking good "Standard Thai" are valid. But there's a difference between one's pragmatic approach to how one presents oneself (say, choosing to downplay that one is a native speaker of a "lesser" Thai language) and classifying those languages as ignorant hick-speak. And it's sad when speakers of these languages begin to believe the propaganda themselves.

[sabaijai]

To the OP: Not to worry. If they live in Isan, those children will learn to speak the local dialect of Isan (there are 19 identified Isan dialects) in spite of the mothers' speaking to them in Central Thai

[Barabbas]

Johpa, well put and very informative. Made me want to look through my university books (most of them once again. And to the OP: it's true that the parents play major part in passing the language knowledge to their children, but in the same time they are not the only ones, who participate in the language development of the child. Even more, I'm quite sure that socium/language environment plays as important a role as the parents/nannies etc. So it will take much more effort and time to suppress such a huge part of Great Thai language (I mean as a linguistic phenomenon), as Isaan, than you might think.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Barabbas

[Texpat]

Isaan isn't a language any more than Tex Mex is.

You say bucket, I say pail.

Given your definition, every dot on every map in every country in the world would have its own language because they say things differently. Simply combining words and phrases from two languages doesn't yield a third.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Texpat

[Johpa]

Isaan isn't a language any more than Tex Mex is.

You say bucket, I say pail.

Given your definition, every dot on every map in every country in the world would have its own language because they say things differently. Simply combining words and phrases from two languages doesn't yield a third.

There are some references to the use of "Tex-Mex" as an emerging Pidgin, but the jury is still out on that determination. There exists a large indigenous population in Northeast Thailand that speaks Isaan as a native language that is taught to children at birth by their parents. There is no population yet that learns your concept of Tex-Mex as a native language. And by your Texan standards of logic, English, that bizarre amalgamation of several Germanic languages mixed up with borrowed Latin words brought over by Norman invaders, perhaps English also does not qualify as a language. But again, that is Texan logic and I thank the joint efforts of Baby Jesus and the Buddha that, in this life, I was not born a Texan.

Perhaps it is also time to bring up that old socio-linguistic adage: A language is nothing more that a regional dialect with an army behind it.

[Texpat]

Not sure how to break this to you, John, but I'm not from Texas. I know, it's all very disappointing given your feeble attempt at insults. Please try harder. If you'll concentrate really hard and read my first sentence again, you'll see that I stated Tex Mex wasn't a language. It's just a combination of English and Spanish -- exactly like Isaan.

There are precious few words in your phantom language that aren't either Thai or Lao -- languages that are quite similar to begin with.

Here's some more bad news: you can get all tingly calling your new creation apple pie ala mode, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still just ice cream and pie.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Texpat

[Rikker]

Seeing as the discussion only appears to be devolving, this thread is now closed.

It's already gone below the level of civility we try to keep in the language forum, my comments included. Let's get back to more constructive discussions.