Prem International School

[jackr]

How much is primary running to at Prem nowadays?

[ferd54]

Right, I suspect that the detailed-information may therefore be confidential, to the schools that pay for it ?

But the list of participating (in 2008-9) schools, which have agreed to publish their names, seems to include about a dozen in Thailand, and names include APIS & CMIS & ISB & PTIS.

OK, but this seems to be a bit of a blind alley in terms of where Prem got the assertion that it is "one of the leading boarding schools in Asia" and "ranked amongst the best international schools in Thailand".

As responsible educators, they should cite the source of such information.

Incidentally, while Grace's teachers are subsidized through sponsorship by their home churches, CMIS does not do that and its teachers are fairly well paid.

As I understand it, Prem pays the biggest salaries in Chiang Mai, so it get teachers who are definitely part of the international educational system. But just because they have loads of experience and can speak and write the correct edu-jargon, it doesn't mean they are twice as good as other certified teachers.

I've attended a few examination meetings by outside educators (WASC) and found that some of these "shining examples" of education were actually quite muddled.

[Bill97]

Right, I suspect that the detailed-information may therefore be confidential, to the schools that pay for it ?

But the list of participating (in 2008-9) schools, which have agreed to publish their names, seems to include about a dozen in Thailand, and names include APIS & CMIS & ISB & PTIS.

Yes so your statement that the testing supports the claims of high ranking are simply unsubstantiated. If fact, if the test results were so high as to justify high rankings wouldn't the school post those results on their website?

My neighbor who has a child at Prem has told me that in fact those test results are quite close to average and nothing to rave about.

[Greenside]

Varee Chiangmai School is opening an international annexe this August with an intake in years 7-10. They will, like Lanna International, be teaching the Cambridge IGCSE syllabus followed by A Levels and most likely the International Baccalaureate, although I believe they're keeping their options open so they can assess the demand from parents of the first wave of students.

Unfortunately their web-site for the new International-Annexe doesn't make any mention of teaching the IB-programmes, PYP or MYP or Diploma, which might mean they're not yet actually planning/recruiting on this basis, and it therefore may not happen. As you had made clear above.

From time to time rumours circulate about other C.M. schools starting one or another stage with I.B., but I believe that at present Prem is the only one actually delivering this, and it does so throughout the school, which is understandably reflected in their costs and fees to parents.

Prem's web-site claims "one of the leading boarding schools in Asia" and "ranked amongst the best international schools in Thailand", which is a long way from claiming to be "best school in S.E.Asia", however I think it's reasonable to aim high, as both Varee & Prem seem to be doing.

It will be interesting to see where Varee stands with this new project, in a couple of years time, right now it looks more like an attempt to tap into possible demand for another central-C.M. international school, offering "a dedicated floor of a new building" and "its own teaching staff" ? What might be the impact on their plans of a rumoured possible new-campus for CMIS, or whatever eventually happens with Grace, still remains to be seen.

You're right, at this point they're not actually set on IB but I understand the plan is to offer it as an alternative to A level and not throughout the International Annexe but it may be that they will set out their position more clearly at the preview this Saturday. It will, as you say, be interesting to see how this new and ambitious project develops, but like Prem they're certainly not scared of investment and I doubt that other schools playing catch-up in terms of facilities would have much impact one way or the other, given how long it takes for these projects to come to fruition.

My impression, for what it's worth, is that the market for international schooling is expanding quite significantly in Chiang Mai as middle class Thai parents come to realise (or are pursuaded) that qualifications gained via the Thai National Curriculum have less weight outside SE Asia and that the the extra costs involved can provide their children with some real advantages and give the family a status hike into the bargain.

[Bill97]

By "2-yearly" do you mean twice a year or once in two years? "For classes at all levels throughout the Junior and Senior Schools", are you sure? For how long have they been doing that testing?

My kids get done every 2nd year, and my experience is with grades 3 & 8, over the past 5 years. The results are a mass of information, we get to see results for our individual children, but you'd need to be an expert statistician to really understand it all !

Hope this helps.

Testing ever second year, testing only 4 out of 12 grades in the school, right? Does not sound like you need to be an expert statistician to understand that is not a very comprehensive testing program.

I love this shit where people are told that it is too complicated for you to understand. That means one of two things 1) we do understand it well enough to explain it clearly or 2) we are not going to tell you because we do not want you to know the truth.

[Ricardo]

Whether they themselves started this "best school in SE Asia" thing or not, the statement is ludicrous.

Prem's web-site claims "one of the leading boarding schools in Asia" and "ranked amongst the best international schools in Thailand", which is a long way from claiming to be "best school in S.E.Asia", however I think it's reasonable to aim high, as both Varee & Prem seem to be doing.

Please re-read the above, I said that the school web-site makes no such claim, but makes a couple of lesser claims.

Yes so your statement that the testing supports the claims of high ranking are simply unsubstantiated. If fact, if the test results were so high as to justify high rankings wouldn't the school post those results on their website?

I did not state that, I responded to the rather aggressive suggestion that they might be making it all up, an allegation for which no evidence was offered incidentally, by giving some information about testing which does take place.

[ferd54]

.... evidence was offered incidentally, by giving some information about testing which does take place.

Yes, and that was offered as a possible explanation for claims made by Prem about its alleged superlative ranking. The fact it tests students requires a huge leap to becoming "one of the leading international schools in Thailand."

I'm not saying that Prem is not such -- I'm just asking where this chestnut came from because its been cycling around Chiang Mai for years.

[Bill97]

Yes so your statement that the testing supports the claims of high ranking are simply unsubstantiated. If fact, if the test results were so high as to justify high rankings wouldn't the school post those results on their website?

I did not state that, I responded to the rather aggressive suggestion that they might be making it all up, an allegation for which no evidence was offered incidentally, by giving some information about testing which does take place.

And thus far there has been no evidence presented by you or anyone else which indicates that they are not just making it up.

I think Ferd and know I would be very happy to see the evidence that justifies the claims since it would be great to know that our little CM truly had a school of the caliber claimed.

[infernalman7]

Well. I guess I can't escape from posting a comment on this resurrected thread.

Ok. I know most of the people always complain about how Prem does seem to be too expensive and very marketing-aggressive. The thing is, it doesn't focus on Chiang Mai at all. Prem is one of the 3 International Schools in Thailand that offers complete IB curriculum, from PYP, MYP to DP. It is the only school in Chiang Mai that is offering IB. So, parents who don't know what IB is, really, should just cut Prem out of their list. IB is probably one of the hardest and toughest international education system there is in the world. And it is very costly to run it.

Why is it costly? Every single paper that your kids will be doing at Prem are being submitted to the IB headquarters in Switzerland and redistributed worldwide. The reason for this is because they want their marking standard to be as fair as it can possibly be. So the person who's marking your children's paper could be from Zimbabwe, Germany or Romania. But the marker must be a qualified IB educator who has to attend a yearly conference that is happening in their region. Yes, these markers will also have to fly to wherever the conference is being held. So there's a cost there as well. By maintaining this standard, many of the universities trust the system. Some universities let IB graduates skip their first year of university. Most universities will let students who take IBDP HL subjects convert their credits to the uni credits. That means either students have time to study something else at university, not having to repeat whatever is being taught already in school.

IB students do not have to take other standardized exams, as IB is already considered the standard already. So basically you can just forget about SAT, IELTS, TOEFL or ACT or whatever it is. You can apply directly to universities. Some universities also give automatic scholarship for IB students. Like UBC where students who get more than 36 points in IB get $4000 off every semester.

Now, back to Prem. Again, if you actually take a close look at Prem, you will know that most of the students do not live in Chiang Mai. 50% of the students are Chiang Mai residents while the rest are staying in the boarding school. Yes, these students are here at Prem because their parents send them here from abroad. Hence you can see why Prem is still growing despite the price which is going up to half a million baht a year at DP level.

I'm pretty sure that Prem can't really be compared with other schools in Chiang Mai. Why? Because their target is different. Even their sports, their presence at the BISAC and SEASAC tells it all. No other schools in Chiang Mai participates with other international schools in Bangkok and SEA in sports. Only Prem.

However, if you really talk about quality, whether they are up to the level of leading international schools in Thailand or not. I personally think that they are not quite there yet. If you want IB, yes Prem is your only choice in Chiang Mai. But there are many IB schools in Bangkok (but most of them are priced the same though, so I think it's the cost to provide IB that drives the price up). ISB, NIST, BPS, these are Thailand's top international schools and they are all offering IB. Their students have higher IB point average than Prem. So I'd say Prem isn't quite there yet. It would be appropriate to put Prem IB students performance at #4 in Thailand. Not #1.

But again, none of these IB schools in Thailand are offering boarding facilities. That's where Prem comes into play. It's the only boarding school in Thailand that's offering IB and that is what make it unique. Also, it's only NIST and Prem that are offering full IB from Grade 1 to 12 in Thailand. Not so many choices there anymore.

So to conclude, IB and boarding facilities are Prem's selling point. If you don't really care about this, don't send your kids to Prem. And again, if you are hardcore religion follow, stay away from IB schools. The IB curriculum teaches kids a subject called Theory of Knowledge, or pretty much anthropology/philosophy-ish subject that encourage students to question everything they believe and know. Yes, it can be tragic to many of the kids who went to Grace. And also if you don't want to risk your kids from getting booted out from school simply because they copy-and-paste stuff form the internet and put into their reports, then don't go to Prem as well. Every single task in the IB is being scanned through Turnitin system, just like the university, academic honesty is what the IB aggressive about, as they consider their program to be a replacement of early years at university.

[doppa]

well that's as thorough enough reply i've ever seen, just one thing where did you get this info. from.

[Bill97]

The above post contains some truth but at least the following statements are not factually correct and significantly not correct:

Every single paper that your kids will be doing at Prem are being submitted to the IB headquarters in Switzerland and redistributed worldwide........

you can just forget about SAT

50% of the students are Chiang Mai residents while the rest are staying in the boarding school

Sports....No other schools in Chiang Mai participates with other international schools in Bangkok

Edited February 23, 2010 by Bill97

[ferd54]

The IB organization lists the following schools in Thailand that use its curriculum:

American Pacific International School

Bangkok Patana School

British International School, Phuket

Concordian International School

Garden International School

International School Bangkok

3International School Eastern Seaboard

KIS International School

New International School of Thailand

Prem Tinsulanonda International School

Ruamrudee International School

St Andrews International School, Bangkok

St. Andrews International School, Rayong

The Regent's School

The Regent's School, Bangkok

Four, including Prem, are listed as offering the program for all grades.

In Wikipedia, the description of the IB program contains the following:

The IB Diploma Programme (IBDP) was described as "a rigorous, off-the-shelf curriculum recognized by universities around the world” when it was featured in the December 18, 2006, edition of Time titled How to bring our schools out of the 20th Century. The IBDP was also featured in the summer 2002 edition of American Educator, where Robert Rothman described it as "a good example of an effective, instructionally sound, exam-based system." Howard Gardner, a professor of educational psychology at Harvard University, said that the IBDP curriculum is "less parochial than most American efforts" and helps students "think critically, synthesize knowledge, reflect on their own thought processes and get their feet wet in interdisciplinary thinking."

In the United Kingdom, the IB Diploma is "regarded as more academically challenging and broader than three or four A-levels." In 2006, government ministers provided funding so that "every local authority in England could have at least one centre offering sixth-formers the chance to do the IB." In 2008, due to the devaluing of the A-Levels and an increase in the number of students taking the IB exams, Children's Secretary Ed Balls abandoned a "flagship Tony Blair pledge to allow children in all areas to study IB." Fears of a "two-tier" education system further dividing education between the rich and the poor emerged as the growth in IB is driven by private schools and sixth-form colleges.

Political objections to the IBDP in the United States have resulted in attempts to eliminate it from public schools. Thomas Sowell, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, describes the IBDP as a "kind of indoctrination" and "one of the endless series of fad programs that distract American public schools from real education in real subjects."

[end]

It has impressive jargon, but whether that translates in to real learning and benefits to most students may or may not be true. Perhaps it does.

infernalman7 tells us Prem trails the top international schools in Thailand, but asserts its students probably rank #4 -- yet that seems to be just his guess, and the reality could be far different.

So we've got a fancy and expensive Swiss-based program that could be great -- or not -- and an uncertain ranking by Prem in it. The IB thing is trotted out to prove excellence, but we're supposed to take their word it. An alternative view could be that an IB program is not crucial to the overall quality of an international school.

I again ask: Where is the data that confirms Prem is "ranked amongst the best international schools in Thailand", as it asserts on its own website? How does that square with the mumbo-jumbo about "rigorous intellectual honesty?"

Edited February 23, 2010 by ferd54

[earlofwindermere]

The IB organization lists the following schools in Thailand that use its curriculum:

American Pacific International School

Bangkok Patana School

British International School, Phuket

Concordian International School

Garden International School

International School Bangkok

3International School Eastern Seaboard

KIS International School

New International School of Thailand

Prem Tinsulanonda International School

Ruamrudee International School

St Andrews International School, Bangkok

St. Andrews International School, Rayong

The Regent's School

The Regent's School, Bangkok

Four, including Prem, are listed as offering the program for all grades.

In Wikipedia, the description of the IB program contains the following:

The IB Diploma Programme (IBDP) was described as "a rigorous, off-the-shelf curriculum recognized by universities around the world” when it was featured in the December 18, 2006, edition of Time titled How to bring our schools out of the 20th Century. The IBDP was also featured in the summer 2002 edition of American Educator, where Robert Rothman described it as "a good example of an effective, instructionally sound, exam-based system." Howard Gardner, a professor of educational psychology at Harvard University, said that the IBDP curriculum is "less parochial than most American efforts" and helps students "think critically, synthesize knowledge, reflect on their own thought processes and get their feet wet in interdisciplinary thinking."

In the United Kingdom, the IB Diploma is "regarded as more academically challenging and broader than three or four A-levels." In 2006, government ministers provided funding so that "every local authority in England could have at least one centre offering sixth-formers the chance to do the IB." In 2008, due to the devaluing of the A-Levels and an increase in the number of students taking the IB exams, Children's Secretary Ed Balls abandoned a "flagship Tony Blair pledge to allow children in all areas to study IB." Fears of a "two-tier" education system further dividing education between the rich and the poor emerged as the growth in IB is driven by private schools and sixth-form colleges.

Political objections to the IBDP in the United States have resulted in attempts to eliminate it from public schools. Thomas Sowell, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, describes the IBDP as a "kind of indoctrination" and "one of the endless series of fad programs that distract American public schools from real education in real subjects."

[end]

It has impressive jargon, but whether that translates in to real learning and benefits to most students may or may not be true. Perhaps it does.

infernalman7 tells us Prem trails the top international schools in Thailand, but asserts its students probably rank #4 -- yet that seems to be just his guess, and the reality could be far different.

So we've got a fancy and expensive Swiss-based program that could be great -- or not -- and an uncertain ranking by Prem in it. The IB thing is trotted out to prove excellence, but we're supposed to take their word it. An alternative view could be that an IB program is not crucial to the overall quality of an international school.

I again ask: Where is the data that confirms Prem is "ranked amongst the best international schools in Thailand", as it asserts on its own website? How does that square with the mumbo-jumbo about "rigorous intellectual honesty?"

I'm not exactly sure what Ferd is trying to prove. The quote above clearly shows that the IB system is highly regarded around the globe and is even gaining popularity in countries like the UK and US. Couldn't you then make the assumption that schools using this system would also be top notch? With only 4 schools in Thailand using the entire IB system, could you then also not state that PREM is among the best in Thailand? Then again, there are obviously people who prefer other systems so Prem's statement could be refuted as well. It can go both ways.... depending on what you value.

In the same way, all the schools write similar things:

CMIS: "provides high quality education."

LIST: "provide quality education"

American Pacific International School is a caring international community that nurtures a love of learning and life-long inquiry

Grace has a world class Special Needs Department.

All of these statements are subjective that could be challenged or defended as well.

[Benjie]

I don't think that IB lets you skip the first year of university. In SOME schools and in SOME circumstances you may be able to get credits for an especially high score, that's only credits though, not missing a whole year.

In the UK the situation is that most universities should accept an IB, some may even prefer them, none will let you skip a year for a High IB grade though.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Benjie

[Bill97]

Couldn't you then make the assumption that schools using this system would also be top notch? With only 4 schools in Thailand using the entire IB system, could you then also not state that PREM is among the best in Thailand?

Making the assumption that all schools that use the IB system are top notch is a big mistake because the fact that they use the system does not mean that many of their students actually earn an IB Diploma. Success rates on earning that Diploma range from 100% to below 50%. The success rate is a much better measure of the school's quality. Also there are students in those schools who do not try to get the IB Diploma because of their feelings/skills and/or the school's counseling. They get a school diploma and possibly IB credit for some courses.

Using the entire IB system is again not too significant because the IB program's reputation for quality is based largely on the last two years of the program which yield the IB Diploma for successful students. The years before the last two are divided into two other programs. Measuring the effectiveness of those programs is a very different issue and their history of use is much shorter than the history of use for the Diploma Program.

If you look at numbers you find that the Diploma Program, the last two years, is the one that is most in use by a substantial margin. This from the IB website.

So yes Earl, with respect, you could make the assumptions and claims you have suggested but I really do not think that they would not be based on anything too meaningful.

[ferd54]

I'm not exactly sure what Ferd is trying to prove. The quote above clearly shows that the IB system is highly regarded around the globe and is even gaining popularity in countries like the UK and US. Couldn't you then make the assumption that schools using this system would also be top notch?

Just because they have signed up for and pay for an expensive program doesn't mean that a school is automatically "top notch".

In the same way, all the schools write similar things:

CMIS: "provides high quality education."

LIST: "provide quality education"

American Pacific International School is a caring international community that nurtures a love of learning and life-long inquiry

Grace has a world class Special Needs Department.

All of these statements are subjective that could be challenged or defended as well.

And they all should be if anyone cares enough. I would particularly question any assertion of "world-class".

As I've said before, I think all of the international schools in Chiang Mai likely do a good job, but claims should be based on reality. The constant marketing by some, Prem most of all, is unseemly when it comes to education.

Edited February 24, 2010 by ferd54

[doppa]

someone mentioned on here, questions parents should ask a school before their child joins it, so , what are those questions that all parents should know, i would guess that 70% of parents have no idea how to check out a school, me included.

[Ricardo]

The above post contains some truth but at least the following statements are not factually correct and significantly not correct:

<snip for brevity>

50% of the students are Chiang Mai residents while the rest are staying in the boarding school

I can confirm this particular point, as I was told recently that boarders comprise approximately one-third of students, so two-thirds would be day-students.

[Geebung]

Couldn't you then make the assumption that schools using this system would also be top notch? With only 4 schools in Thailand using the entire IB system, could you then also not state that PREM is among the best in Thailand?

Making the assumption that all schools that use the IB system are top notch is a big mistake because the fact that they use the system does not mean that many of their students actually earn an IB Diploma. Success rates on earning that Diploma range from 100% to below 50%. The success rate is a much better measure of the school's quality. Also there are students in those schools who do not try to get the IB Diploma because of their feelings/skills and/or the school's counseling. They get a school diploma and possibly IB credit for some courses.

Hi I'm new to the board but have been researching International Schools in Thailand, particularly CM, and came across this interesting thread.

My question is, if a student fails to obtain an IB diploma, and instead achieves a school diploma and IB certificates, to what extent are their prospects of entry to universities in countries other than Thailand compromised? Does anyone here know?

[Johpa]

The school has a very interesting history. It was the originally the brain child of M.L.Tri Devakul (Boathouse, Le Meridien, Phuket yacht Club etc). Hence the involvement of Prem who he is very close to due to similar proclivities and a joy of partying in their younger days. He was the architect for the school (and is one of Thailand's most respected architects). He originally called the project 'three generations' as he had some idea that the pupils, parents and grandparents would all live on the campus.

What is now the Prem school was originally conceived by Devakul as a real estate housing development back in the early 1990s when such developments were the rage. I had access to these original solicitations in both Thai and English as someone had contacted faculty at my former high school back in the US regarding a possible "sister school" affiliation and one of the faculty contacted me to get my opinion. The original solicitations noted that Bangkok families could have their children educated away from the sins and pressures of Bangkok by buying land and a house that would guarantee placement of their child into the school. The sales pitch was more in the line of having grandma or mom live with the kid during the week with dad flying in on the weekend to their gated rural retreat. The concept of a northern rural retreat had only recently been made fashionable by former political king maker Phichai Rattakul who had built his "Mae Ruay" teak log cabin outside of Mae Rim.

[Bill97]

Couldn't you then make the assumption that schools using this system would also be top notch? With only 4 schools in Thailand using the entire IB system, could you then also not state that PREM is among the best in Thailand?

Making the assumption that all schools that use the IB system are top notch is a big mistake because the fact that they use the system does not mean that many of their students actually earn an IB Diploma. Success rates on earning that Diploma range from 100% to below 50%. The success rate is a much better measure of the school's quality. Also there are students in those schools who do not try to get the IB Diploma because of their feelings/skills and/or the school's counseling. They get a school diploma and possibly IB credit for some courses.

Hi I'm new to the board but have been researching International Schools in Thailand, particularly CM, and came across this interesting thread.

My question is, if a student fails to obtain an IB diploma, and instead achieves a school diploma and IB certificates, to what extent are their prospects of entry to universities in countries other than Thailand compromised? Does anyone here know?

The IB diploma provides a score that a University can use to evaluate the student's performance (sometimes other testing is also required). Without it the student would certainly have to take SAT for US schools and some other test for other countries in order to provide the Universities with an evaluation, just like non IB students are required to take. So, the answer to your question is yes at least a little but not necessarily a lot if the student scores well on the other tests like SAT. You might look at as the IB Diploma being a bonus and without it the student would be considered like other students who did not go to IB schools, the IB certificates for some classes being similar to Advanced Placement courses in non IB schools.

Prem has placed almost all their students in universities in recent years and all of them in some type of institution of higher learning (some choose schools of the arts which are not universities and a few go to junior colleges for two years with the plan of university after that, an economical way to do it in the US).

[Bill97]

The school has a very interesting history. It was the originally the brain child of M.L.Tri Devakul (Boathouse, Le Meridien, Phuket yacht Club etc). Hence the involvement of Prem who he is very close to due to similar proclivities and a joy of partying in their younger days. He was the architect for the school (and is one of Thailand's most respected architects). He originally called the project 'three generations' as he had some idea that the pupils, parents and grandparents would all live on the campus.

What is now the Prem school was originally conceived by Devakul as a real estate housing development back in the early 1990s when such developments were the rage. I had access to these original solicitations in both Thai and English as someone had contacted faculty at my former high school back in the US regarding a possible "sister school" affiliation and one of the faculty contacted me to get my opinion. The original solicitations noted that Bangkok families could have their children educated away from the sins and pressures of Bangkok by buying land and a house that would guarantee placement of their child into the school. The sales pitch was more in the line of having grandma or mom live with the kid during the week with dad flying in on the weekend to their gated rural retreat. The concept of a northern rural retreat had only recently been made fashionable by former political king maker Phichai Rattakul who had built his "Mae Ruay" teak log cabin outside of Mae Rim.

And for those who have not walked around the campus, it now contains numerous (10-15?) multi-story buildings intended as family residences which stand not completed since the mid-1990s, some without roofs, most without windows, doors or paint. Non school staff families in residence can probably be counted on the fingers on one hand. In spite of these unused structures, he is building more residential units adjacent to the school.

[Cirrus]

That was a good posting and very comprehensive. My child went to PTIS and I am very happy. PTIS seems expensive for Chiang Mai but it is less than other international schools in the region. You have to do your research on other international school prices. Compare globally. I know the school has to pay international rates for teachers and there are more and more schools being created around the world today. PTIS has to compete against an increasing global demand for IB teachers who are international in outlook and training and sensitive to the langauge teaching methods and cross cultural issues students face. There are over a hundred so called international schools in Thailand alone and only about fifteen are really international in terms of curriculum, facilities and staffing with highly experienced teachers. The IB is the top program in the world today but it is expensive because of the rigor the IB demands in terms of marking and professional development of teachers. I am very happy that a school of this size is available for parents in little Chiang mai. Most top international schools are in big cities. PTIS was created away from large centers of population and that is the beauty of the place. The facilities and spaciousness the school has are second to none in this region. To me, PTIS will only get bigger as people around the world find out about the school. The school is half the cost of boarding schools in Europe and North America. Comparing internationally with other schools, I am happy with what goes on at the school. I love walking around the campus, it reminds me of a small college with its trees and waterways. Give the school time and it will be known far and wide.

[Cirrus]

You do not have to have the IB to be the best international school. But, more and more schools are adopting this system. One must be careful when looking at IB schools when they quote their results. As a long time parent in Thailand, I am aware that some schools only allow a small number of students to enter the IB because they are big enough to have alternate and credible programs that the kids also want to be in. Out of 200 grade seniors, there may only be forty or fifty that are able to be accepted into their IB program. The rest may be doing general courses and still getting a credible high school diploma and going to universities. I know that the big schools in Bangkok only allow the top students into their IB and guess what.....no surprises when they get good results. They usually have only allowed the best students to try the IB. For small schools with small graduating classes, the schools are not big enough to have alternate programs so every student gets to try the IB. My daughter goes to PTIS and I know that anyone who wants to try the IB can. As PTIS and other small schools get bigger, I am sure that they will have alternate high school programs, just like the big schools in Bangkok. The IB is not for every student and the small schools do their best to offer alternatives. Look behind the statistics and see the entry requirements into the IB at the big schools. PTIS has a good success rate with getting students into the universities the kids want to go to and they do it with a non-selective entry philosophy.

The IB organization lists the following schools in Thailand that use its curriculum:

American Pacific International School

Bangkok Patana School

British International School, Phuket

Concordian International School

Garden International School

International School Bangkok

3International School Eastern Seaboard

KIS International School

New International School of Thailand

Prem Tinsulanonda International School

Ruamrudee International School

St Andrews International School, Bangkok

St. Andrews International School, Rayong

The Regent's School

The Regent's School, Bangkok

Four, including Prem, are listed as offering the program for all grades.

In Wikipedia, the description of the IB program contains the following:

The IB Diploma Programme (IBDP) was described as "a rigorous, off-the-shelf curriculum recognized by universities around the world" when it was featured in the December 18, 2006, edition of Time titled How to bring our schools out of the 20th Century. The IBDP was also featured in the summer 2002 edition of American Educator, where Robert Rothman described it as "a good example of an effective, instructionally sound, exam-based system." Howard Gardner, a professor of educational psychology at Harvard University, said that the IBDP curriculum is "less parochial than most American efforts" and helps students "think critically, synthesize knowledge, reflect on their own thought processes and get their feet wet in interdisciplinary thinking."

In the United Kingdom, the IB Diploma is "regarded as more academically challenging and broader than three or four A-levels." In 2006, government ministers provided funding so that "every local authority in England could have at least one centre offering sixth-formers the chance to do the IB." In 2008, due to the devaluing of the A-Levels and an increase in the number of students taking the IB exams, Children's Secretary Ed Balls abandoned a "flagship Tony Blair pledge to allow children in all areas to study IB." Fears of a "two-tier" education system further dividing education between the rich and the poor emerged as the growth in IB is driven by private schools and sixth-form colleges.

Political objections to the IBDP in the United States have resulted in attempts to eliminate it from public schools. Thomas Sowell, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, describes the IBDP as a "kind of indoctrination" and "one of the endless series of fad programs that distract American public schools from real education in real subjects."

[end]

It has impressive jargon, but whether that translates in to real learning and benefits to most students may or may not be true. Perhaps it does.

infernalman7 tells us Prem trails the top international schools in Thailand, but asserts its students probably rank #4 -- yet that seems to be just his guess, and the reality could be far different.

So we've got a fancy and expensive Swiss-based program that could be great -- or not -- and an uncertain ranking by Prem in it. The IB thing is trotted out to prove excellence, but we're supposed to take their word it. An alternative view could be that an IB program is not crucial to the overall quality of an international school.

I again ask: Where is the data that confirms Prem is "ranked amongst the best international schools in Thailand", as it asserts on its own website? How does that square with the mumbo-jumbo about "rigorous intellectual honesty?"

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, CM TV Friends,

We remember when Prem school, or now PTIS, was "pre-launched" with lovely two-page spreads in the Bangkok Post with pictures of "grandfatherly" and "grandmotherly" type persons walking with young "student" type looking persons around tree-lined grounds. Lots of hype about Apple portable computers for every student, networking everywhere. A clever marketing appeal to the idea of both technology and the mythos of "old Thai ways."

The ads pushed the idea of "Tridos" which we think meant "three generations:" grandpa and/or grandma would live in housing (condos ?) they purchased on the school grounds in graceful retirement while having the ability to mentor and maintain relationships with their grandchildren, while the mother and father could remain hard at work in Bangkok or wherever.

During the building of the school, we were told by a young American sociologist who had done his Ph.D. field work in a village near Prem, that there were an unusually high number of fatalities among the off-the-books Burmese employed in (what else) the construction of the school, and some problems in relations between the school and local villagers (so, what's new ?).

The old Prem school, managed by an English man, claimed to be an official affiliate of the Taft School in the U.S. We met someone in Chiang Mai who had taught at the Taft School for many years, and he told us a group of Bangkok parents (with children at Prem) had discovered somehow that the Prem school did, in fact, have no relationship with the Taft school whatsoever, and that an intervention had been made by some very-important-people to change the management of the school, and put an end to any claim to be associated with the Taft School.

In any case, we have heard that the concept of housing for the grandparents simply never "sold."

The human being inside of us once taught (around 1983 ?) for a year at the French-American International School in San Francisco (created the computer program for the higher grades). There the IB was offered only to the higher grades (equivalent to American High School years). The twenty or so students in the IB program were just brilliant, and the curriculum incredibly demanding ! They came out of that program, fluent in at least two languages, often able to enter the best American Universities or Colleges at the sophomore level.

To the school's great credit the "lower school" (not IB) which had three or four hundred students, gave more than twenty per-cent of its places as scholarships to children from the surrounding lower Haight, and San Francisco, area who could qualify on tough entrance exams which meant you had many some black or Hispanic, or Chinese-American, children of Vietnamese refugees, etc., getting a chance at a quality bi-lingual elementary education, and some of those children (rare ones) later did qualify for the IB higher level program.

We have friends who send their young children to Prem now, and, from our point of view, it is very expensive. We are not familiar with how the school has changed, evolved, in the last twelve years or so. Our friends who send their kids there obviously believe it's well run, and the curriculum and teachers of very high quality.

best, ~o:37;

Edited August 28, 2010 by orang37

[Loom]

Standards differ from school to school.

I'd like to see test results to verify claims that Prem is such a prestigious institution. The more prestigious international schools in Singapore regularly update test results and college admission results on their web sites. If it's not a selling point, then there would be no reason to provide the information.

Without backup information it's impossible to conclude just how prestigious an institution actually may be.

[Firelily]

Does anyone know of online stats of IB schools worldwide? I did a search a while ago but didn't spend too long trying to dig it up. It would be most enlightening.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Firelily

[Thakkar]

Does anyone know of online stats of IB schools worldwide? I did a search a while ago but didn't spend too long trying to dig it up. It would be most enlightening.

I'd be interested as well. I just now did some quick google searches, but didn't come up with anything useful.

[osteacher]

Hi

A friend of my daughters graduated last year. Apparently the highest grade was 37 (out of a possible 45) and 8 students failed the Diploma. Some students get into reasonable unis but a lot go to local Thai unis or alternative study.

I think it depends on the year how the results are. I believe student numbers are down at Prem and falling and 6 staff were "let go" last year due to continuing falling numbers and cost cutting.

[Thighlander]

I've known two teachers from LIST. Both were certified teachers in the US. I've known one teacher from Prem, and he was not certifiable in the US. It seemed like they overcharge the parents and underpay the teachers. I've met the top people at LIST, and I have a lot of respect for them. Having worked as a substitute teacher in too many schools to count; I think I have a good sense for good vibe/bad vibe and I got a good vibe from LIST.