Norwegian Woman And American Woman Die Of Unknown Causes on Koh Phi Phi

[CFIT]

Neither the Bangkok Post or The Nation are reporting on these deaths in Phi Phi and I wrote them 2 days ago,

but the Swedish woman strangled on a Krabi beach has a mention .

That speaks volumes about what is going on.

[geriatrickid]

Just to add some information on the water treatment plant. The plant was built after the Tsunami (I think in 2005) so is not very old. It was constructed using donated funds by a Scandinavian company, or is at least of Scandinavian design. It is a bio filter plant whereas the waste water (not sewerage) is piped onto filter beds covering a large area, probably equivalent to 6 tennis courts. The water seeps down through the filter beds which remove nitrates and other contaminants. Flowers are grown on the filter beds that feed off the removed minerals. There is a large plaque next to the plant that states who built the plant and explains how it works. If I remember correctly NO chemicals are used in the process it is purely biological filtration. I lived very close to the plant for some time and never noticed even a slight odour being given off. The water supply in my bungalow and I believe for all this area was supplied from wells

Thank you for adding this. It confirms that the first place to be looking is the well water. Maybe folks didn't drink it outright, but if it was used in cooking or food preparation, the source may be the water supply. Filtration systems as described are adequate provided they are not in close proximity to potable water sources. Until someone rules out the water supply or pesticide poisoning, I am going to be predisposed to that as the origin. Are they checking the well water? It's <deleted> SOP and commomn sense. Any farmer will tell you that if livestock dies mysteriously, you check the water source. I'd like to know if the wells are being checked.

[kennkate]

R.I.P Jill Sincere Condolances to her family and friends

I take it that Jill has been Cremated and her ashes are now with her Family

That does beg the question Has the Cause of Death been Established If not why was she Cremated

Was that the wish of her family 100% or did the Thai Authorities in some way recomend this

I do find it quite unbelivable that would occur without the Cause of her death being Esablished

[MAC10]

Water has been a problem on Phi Phi for many years. I believe it will come down to water and ignorance if this is ever thoroughly investigated and not covered up. The commercial water industry in Thailand is well known to take many shortcuts to save money. Groundwater throughout Thailand is poisoned with everything from industrial chemicals, pesticides, human waste, and is not controlled or regulated in any way. It is normal to have a septic tank within ten feet of a well. There are also no regulations about water tanks, by tanks I mean ponds. If the local pig farmer is a influential person its normal for the waste of the pig farm to drain right into the local water tank every time it rains.

Water treatment is unregulated here by western standards, Its nothing for drinking water businesses to use old or even improper filters. While I'm not a certified expert on this I do know much about having lived here and backpacking in wilderness areas where drinking water was a issue. I greatly suspect that untreated water was used in the preparation of food in all cases. This could be anything from water used for washing dishes being contaminated to the use of water in cooking not reaching a rolling boil. It could also be a problem with contaminated ice. While there is the odd chance a serial killer is poisoning people, ultimately I believe it will come down to either ignorance, greed, or a combination of the two.

What is happening in Phi Phi? From what has been described so far, very little. I find the so called investigation up to this point completely outrageous. Having a few cops go hang out at a bar is not a investigation, use your imagination and add about a hundred curse words to complete this paragraph.

As far as anyone knows locals could already know what killed these people but are either scared to tell or have financial stake so prefer to lie. It is without doubt there has been a effort to cover this up and keep it on the back pages of the news as if it were not a front page story. While I have great sympathy for the victims and their families this is now about protecting future people from such a horrible tragedy. I have no grief with Phi Phi Island or any of its residents but now is not the time for the typical local bullshitt as a American Tourist and others are dead and in the end the government of Phi Phi Island is 100% responsible.

The U.S. Embassy should have issued a immediate travel warning to Phi Phi Island the minute all this became clear. They should have also dispatched a Credentialed Representative immediately to Phi Phi to oversee the investigation until they know exactly what happened to the victim. As a private citizen it is outrageous that neither of these two things happened as they "The Embassy" should be all over this and should be informing the family and other Americans exactly what has happened minute by minute, shame on them.

[warfie]

so, a Norwegian tourist died on April 1 of unknown causes and the guest house was allowed to remain open for business? <deleted>?! and now another two lives lost and apparently it is still open for business? The guest house might be neither directly nor indirectly to blame, but this circumstance seems to obvious to ignore... am I wrong?

[JohnLocke]

Neither the Bangkok Post or The Nation are reporting on these deaths in Phi Phi and I wrote them 2 days ago,

but the Swedish woman strangled on a Krabi beach has a mention .

That speaks volumes about what is going on.

It was on Bangkok Post Friday May 8th's front page on the lower right. Here's a link to the online article:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1631...-kills-tourists

I must say, this last line seems like bureaucracy-speak - i.e., I have no report on my desk, therefore I know nothing about the case... Perhaps it's just the way the reporter phrased it?

"Supamit Chunsuthiwat, director of the Disease Control Department's emerging infectious diseases unit, said he had not received any reports about the foreigners' deaths."

Here it is in the Nation online (also dated May 8th):

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...newsid=30102230

[brahmburgers]

"Supamit Chunsuthiwat, director of the Disease Control Department's emerging infectious diseases unit, said he had not received any reports about the foreigners' deaths."

Who is this person Supamit, and when did he say that? Is he speaking from the giant Dept of Inactive Posts in Bangkok? If not, maybe he should move his desk there.

On the investigation that we've heard nothing about, other than promises of very long delays on autopsies:

One key component is the speed in which these normally robust young people got sick and died. The rapidity of it will rule out some, if not most, suspected agents right away - as most fatal agents take at least several days, if not weeks/months to do their damage.

I'm leaning more to something like high dose of pesticide (in the water), particularly because of reports of severe inflamation of the stomach (and intestinal?) lining of the victims.

Edited May 9, 2009 by brahmburgers

[z21rhd]

This is a public health issue, noticeably absent are the public health officials who should be in charge of this investigation.

A Norwegian man dies of food poisoning a month ago and they are still waiting for the autopsy report?

So the police are waiting for what, the DNA of the suspect bacteria before they make an arrest!!

CNN Report:- HERE

[kriswillems]

Puffer fish tastes like chicken meat. In Thailand it is use as a cheap replacement for chicken. It's illegal, but many shops fool their customers. I can imagine it could end up in home-made hamburgers. Be careful in those Korean Barbeque places where you can eat as much meat as you want for 69 baht. I can't be sure what these people died from, but every year many Thai people die from Puffer fish poisoning.

This is what I found on wikipedia:

Pufferfish, called pakpao, are also consumed in Thailand, usually by mistake, at times these fish are eaten because they are cheaper to buy, and there is little awareness or monitoring of the situation. Patients are regularly hospitalized or die as there are no specific preparations to remove the toxin before eating.

Puffer's (tetrodotoxin) poisoning will cause deadening of the tongue and lips, dizziness, and vomiting. These are followed by numbness and prickling over the body, rapid heart rate, decreased blood pressure, and muscle paralysis. Death results from suffocation as diaphragm muscles are paralyzed. Patients who live longer than 24 hours are expected to survive, although the poison can cause comas lasting several days.

Edited May 9, 2009 by kriswillems

[MisterMan]

Good point about her being cremated so quickly.. why was that? Who did the autopsy? Why is the boyfriend not being checked too? and the Norwegian girl who survived?

It appears to me at this point it is alll being swept under the carpet.

Have the American Embassy and Norwegian Embassy taken no interest?

I just found this:

" The U.S. Embassy in Thailand has been working with the St. Onge family to determine what happened.

"The police know we are concerned about this, but as with any investigation, it could take some time," said embassy spokesman Michael Turner.

Robert St. Onge said Thai authorities told his family that the inquiry could take four to eight weeks. He said his family has been given tissue samples so they can have testing done by an independent laboratory."

____

But according to the blog they were enjoying their days off at the embassy and the family had to wait till it opened.

Shame on them. They don't have on-call reps? Emergency reps? Perhaps they have succumbed to their surroundings.

(I seemed to closed the tab with this the source and can't find it sorry..)

Edited May 9, 2009 by MisterMan

[z21rhd]

Another death reported :- HERE

[bkkjingjoe]

So now it is on the headlines on CNN...

How long will it take to become a serious issue here for Thai media?

Two young people die, same island, same guesthouse, same symptoms,....

Here we go again with the "losing face" issue....LOS is losing face big time again.

And not because of the fact that this happened (it really does happen everywhere all over the world) but because of the fact that Thailand (or whoever is responsible) is covering sth up and for handling the investigation so poorly.

Sad, very sad it is.

[MAC10]

University of Virginia

What is tetrodotoxin?

Tetrodotoxin, also called pufferfish poisoning or fugu poisoning, is a much more rare form of fish poisoning, but is potentially very serious. This is almost exclusively associated with the consumption of the pufferfish from waters of the Indo-Pacific regions, but there have been several reported cases of poisonings, including fatalities, from pufferfish in the Atlantic Ocean, Gulf of Mexico, and Gulf of California. Pufferfish poisoning is a continuing problem for Japan.

What are the symptoms of pufferfish poisoning?

Symptoms generally appear between 20 minutes to three hours after eating the poisonous pufferfish. The following are the most common symptoms of pufferfish poisoning. However, each individual may experience symptoms differently. Symptoms may include:

• numbness of lips and tongue
  
• numbness of face and extremities
  
• sensations of lightness or floating
  
• dizziness
  
• headache
  
• vomiting
  
• abdominal pain
  
• diarrhea
  
• slurred speech
  
• difficulty walking
  
• extensive muscle weakness
  

The symptoms of pufferfish poisoning may resemble other medical conditions. Always consult your physician for a diagnosis.

Treatment for pufferfish poisoning:

Treatment for pufferfish poisoning consists of limiting the body's absorption of the toxin, relieving symptoms, and treating life-threatening complications. There is no known antidote for tetrodotoxin. Specific treatment will be determined by your physician based on:

• your overall health and medical history
  
• extent of the disease
  
• your tolerance for specific medications, procedures, and therapies
  
• your opinion or preference
  

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http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/177_11...sb10423_fm.html

Puffer fish poisoning: a potentially life-threatening condition

Geoffrey K Isbister, Julie Son, Frank Wang, Catriona J Maclean, Cindy S-Y Lin, Josef Ujma, Corrine R Balit, Brendon Smith, D G Milder and Matthew C Kiernan MJA 2002 177 (11/12): 650-653 — Author details

Puffer fish poisoning has been documented rarely in Australia. It results from ingesting tetrodoxtoxin found in the liver, ovaries, intestines and skin of the fish. Over a recent 16-month period, 11 cases of puffer fish poisoning were reported to the NSW Poisons Information Centre. Symptoms of poisoning may include paralysis, respiratory failure, numbness, paraesthesia, nausea and ataxia. Health professionals should be aware of the condition so as to institute early and appropriate management. Tetrodotoxin (TTX) is present in high concentrations in the liver, ovaries, intestines and skin of puffer fish (Box 1).1 Although TTX poisoning caused by ingestion of the fish is common in some parts of the world, it occurs only sporadically in Australia, with only 16 published cases reported over the past 200 years.2-7 (This figure does not include the 11 cases described here.) One of the earliest descriptions of puffer fish poisoning in this region can be found in Captain James Cook's journal from his second voyage in 1774 (see Time Capsule, page 653).3

The majority of reported cases have occurred in southeastern Asia,1,8-10 particularly Japan, where puffer fish is considered a delicacy.1,11 Although improved legislation governing marketing and preparation of the fish has reduced the incidence of puffer fish poisoning in Japan, it remains the most common cause of fatal food poisoning, as there are still some unlicensed cooks and untrained workers involved in preparing the fish.1,11 Before 1950, all reported cases in Australia were fatal,5 and in Japan up to 100 deaths a year were reported.11

We describe 11 patients with puffer fish poisoning, four of whom underwent comprehensive neurophysiological testing.

Clinical findingsFor the period 1 January 2001 to 13 April 2002, records of 149 453 calls to the NSW Poisons Information Centre were searched for instances of puffer fish poisoning. The Centre covers New South Wales and Tasmania 24 hours a day and the rest of Australia overnight. Of 195 calls coded as food or fish poisoning, there were five calls regarding puffer fish. Two were minor cases involving people who had been squirted with fluid from puffer fish. The three remaining calls were from hospitals: a total of 11 affected people (described here) were involved.

Patient 1A 33-year-old woman presented to a semi-rural hospital with nausea and vomiting, perioral paraesthesia, dysarthria, ataxia and hyperventilation after ingesting seven puffer fish several hours earlier (see Box 1). Her vital signs were stable and the FEV1 (forced expiratory volume in one second) was 2.2 litres (normal range, 3.3–4.0 L). However, an hour after presentation she became more dysarthric and developed limb paresis with hyporeflexia. In view of progressive lethargy, dyspnoea and a fall in FEV1 to 1.5 L, she was intubated and ventilated, then transferred to the intensive care unit of a metropolitan teaching hospital.

On arrival, the patient was haemodynamically stable but her pupils were dilated and non-reactive to light. Investigations, including a lumbar puncture and cranial computed tomography scan, were normal. With a presumptive diagnosis of tetrodotoxin poisoning, the patient was managed with supportive care. Over the next two days, her condition improved, deep tendon and pupillary reflexes returned, and she was extubated on Day 2. The other symptoms gradually resolved, and she was discharged on Day 5 after full neurological recovery.

Patient 2A 40-year-old man presented to a metropolitan teaching hospital (see Box 2). He stated that he had eaten 10 small toadfish eight hours earlier, together with drinking a significant quantity of alcohol. Following ingestion of the toadfish he had collapsed a number of times and felt tingling of his hands and feet and around his mouth. With each collapse, he experienced generalised weakness, but did not lose consciousness. He had no relevant past medical history. On examination he was afebrile, with a pulse rate of 110 beats/minute, blood pressure of 140/80 mmHg, respiratory rate of 16 breaths/minute and oxygen saturation of 96%. A neurological examination was entirely normal. After uneventful overnight observation, he was discharged.

Patients 3–11Seven adults and two children ate a soup made from about 30 puffer fish, gutted with heads intact and boiled in fresh water. The cook referred to the fish as puffer fish, and one of us (J U) identified one of the fish as a puffer fish. All nine patients had been previously well, not taking medication, and with no known allergies. The patients' clinical features are shown in Box 2.

One child was completely asymptomatic, and the other had mild symptoms of perioral numbness and dysaesthesia of the extremities for five hours. Both were discharged from the emergency department.

Most of the seven adults presented to hospital with nausea, perioral and lingual numbness, dysaesthesia of the extremities, dizziness and gait ataxia. Several patients had vomiting and one was experiencing respiratory distress. Neurological examination revealed marked ataxia in all seven patients and limb weakness in two patients (more marked in the upper than lower limbs). One patient had decreased sensation in the hands and feet. Most symptoms resolved over 48 hours, but slight weakness and ataxia of the lower limbs remained. These resolved completely over the following week. Neurophysiological investigation was undertaken in four of the adult patients (see Box 3) within 24 hours of ingestion.

DiscussionAlthough puffer fish poisoning is rare in Australia, our report highlights the seriousness of TTX poisoning and its potential to be life-threatening.<a href="http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/177_11_021202/isb10423_fm.html#i1067680" class="SupXRef">11 However, early recognition of the condition and supportive care in a modern intensive care unit should ensure a safe outcome.

The clinical effects of TTX poisoning have been graded by the severity of neurological and cardiovascular involvement (Box 2).11 In this series, one patient had Grade 3 poisoning, and most others Grade 2 poisoning. Most of the patients exhibited typical neurological features, including perioral numbness and/or paraesthesia, distal limb numbness/paraesthesia and ataxia — symptoms similar to those seen in previous case series.1-10 Gastrointestinal features were also typical, with nausea, occasional vomiting, but no diarrhoea. Cardiovascular effects (not present in this series) occur only in the most severe (Grade 4) cases.

The onset of symptoms in TTX poisoning is usually rapid, but is dependent on the severity of poisoning. In the moderately severe cases in this series, symptoms had all occurred within 90 minutes. In reported fatal cases and severe poisoning, symptoms have almost always developed within 1–2 hours.10 The majority of moderate to severe cases in this series resolved within five days, consistent with previous reports,3,6 although this also depends on the severity. In minor cases the duration of symptoms may only be a few hours.

The relatively mild symptoms experienced by patients 3–11 probably reflect the relatively low dose of TTX ingested. TTX is present in high concentrations in the viscera of puffer fish, particularly the liver and intestines (Box 4). These organs were removed before cooking the fish soup, and the amount of TTX was subsequently diluted by adding fresh water to the soup and possibly by subsequent boiling. With higher levels of TTX, paralysis and respiratory failure are inevitable, although consciousness is not lost except in extreme cases (Box 2). Of interest, such a process has been implicated in the phenomenon of "zombification" in Haiti.22,23

Nerve conduction studies revealed clear abnormalities. Nerves in the patients tested were of high threshold, and exhibited slow conduction and reduced-amplitude compound potentials, indicating that some axons were unable to conduct at all. This effect was greater in sensory than motor axons, correlating well with the greater prominence of sensory symptoms (dysaesthesiae and numbness) relative to motor symptoms (weakness) in these patients. Voltage-dependent Na+ channels underlie action potential generation and are the chief determinants of membrane excitability in human nerves.24,25 Tetrodotoxin blocks Na+ channels at very low concentrations, affecting action potential generation and impulse conduction.

It is important that health professionals are aware of TTX poisoning because of the potential for severe and life-threatening effects. All but the mildest cases (Grade 1) should be admitted to hospital for observation until the peak of the clinical effects has passed. After 24 hours it is extremely unlikely that life-threatening effects will occur in patients who have not already developed severe effects. Early diagnosis by recognition of the combination of clinical effects in people ingesting puffer fish is essential to management.

[MAC10]

Puffer Fish is nothing new to Thailand. This does seem a likely scenario as many deaths occur within 24 hours, at which time most patients begin to improve. What is certain is these people were poisoned and nobody has take any responsibility to find out how or to prevent it from happening again. It seems to me if someone young and healthy dies even the most pathetic of police agencies would be bothered to go over to the guest house involved, knock on a few doors and ask questions, which could have prevented the death of second victim. Needless to say cheep guest houses will not take responsibility for anything, its no surprise the owner showed zero sympathy for the victims, felt no responsibility for their welfare, and blamed them for being tourist "drinking" as their cause of death.

_________________________________________________________________

Thursday, August 23, 2007

BANGKOK, Thailand — In Thailand, it's a fish dish that kills. A doctor says unscrupulous vendors have been selling meat from the highly poisonous puffer fish disguised as salmon. That's resulted in the deaths of more than 15 people over the past three years. Some 115 people have been hospitalized.

Although it was banned in Thailand five years ago, puffer fish continues to be sold in large quantities at local markets and restaurants.

The ovaries, liver and intestines of the puffer fish contain a poison so potent that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration says it can "produce rapid and violent death."

In Japan, the fish is called fugu (foo-goo) and is prepared by highly trained chefs and consumed by thrill-seeking Japanese gourmets.

Every year, there are reports of people dying or falling sick in Asia from eating puffer fish.

________________________________________________________________________________

Pufferfish Poisoning in Thailand

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 Paul Auerbach, M.D.

A recent news report commented upon the fact that vendors in Thailand have been selling puffer fish meat and calling it salmon. According to a reporting physician in Thailand, this disguised (dyed in some cases) puffer fish meat has caused at least 15 deaths over the past year.

Certain puffers ("blowfish," "globefish," "swellfish," "porcupinefish," and so on) contain tetrodotoxin, one of the most potent poisons in nature. These fish are prepared as a delicacy (fugu) in Japan and elsewhere by specially trained and licensed chefs. People intentionally eat puffer fish for the culinary thrill, which when causing the sought-after effects, generates a set of minor, non-debilitating symptoms of what can become a very serious, even fatal, intoxication (see below).

The toxin is found in the entire fish (including the flesh, or "meat"), with greatest concentration in the liver, intestines, reproductive organs, and skin. After the victim has eaten the fish, symptoms can occur as quickly as 10 minutes later or be delayed by a few hours. These include numbness and tingling around the mouth, lightheadedness, drooling, sweating, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, weakness, difficulty walking, paralysis, difficulty breathing, and collapse. As noted above, this ingestion can be fatal. Tetrodotoxin is also found in other animals; for instance, it is the toxin responsible for the potentially lethal bite of the Indo-Pacific blue-ringed octopus.

If someone is suspected or known to be suffering from puffer poisoning, he or she should immediately be transported to a hospital. Pay attention to their ability to breathe, and assist breathing if necessary. This may necessitate using a bag-valve-mask device, or in the absence of a doctor or emergency medical technician, using mouth-to-mouth breathing, preferably with a barrier shield.

Unfortunately, there is no antidote for tetrodotoxin poisoning, and the victim will need sophisticated medical management until the toxin is eliminated from the body. Eating puffers, unless they are prepared by the most skilled chefs, is dietary Russian roulette. Persons should now, obviously, be extremely careful when purchasing fish from vendors in Thailand.

Edited May 9, 2009 by MAC10

[Soupdragon]

Whilst the idea of Puffer fish being the cause of death is possible I think it extremely, extremely unlikely. One thing you are not considering is that the main industry on Phi Phi is Scuba Diving. Puffer Fish do not occur in great numbers on the reefs around Phi Phi certainly not enough to make them a viable food fish. So think about this, the fish is a lot more valuable alive in the water as a tourist attraction than it ever could be in a restaurant. If a restaurant was found to be using Puffer Fish there would be a lot of people in the dive industry who would make sure it stopped immediately. I can see you are going to argue that maybe only one was used and that is why only a few peole got sick but then probability comes into play, what are the odds of these people staying in the same guesthouse, eating at the same restaurant and being the only ones served Puffer Fish ???

[MisterMan]

Whilst the idea of Puffer fish being the cause of death is possible I think it extremely, extremely unlikely. One thing you are not considering is that the main industry on Phi Phi is Scuba Diving. Puffer Fish do not occur in great numbers on the reefs around Phi Phi certainly not enough to make them a viable food fish. So think about this, the fish is a lot more valuable alive in the water as a tourist attraction than it ever could be in a restaurant. If a restaurant was found to be using Puffer Fish there would be a lot of people in the dive industry who would make sure it stopped immediately. I can see you are going to argue that maybe only one was used and that is why only a few peole got sick but then probability comes into play, what are the odds of these people staying in the same guesthouse, eating at the same restaurant and being the only ones served Puffer Fish ???

That is not entirely true as I have heard they even have shark on ice at some of the restaurants in Phi Phi. really stupid of them but the dive industry has not been able to reason with the village idiots to stop this practice. Most divers know that sharks are becoming endangered. There are even restaurants in Phuket with shark on the menu but not much the dive industry can do except not patronize them.

However if puffer fish was the cause of the girls death then wouldn't more people have died?

Or perhaps they have??? The theories are endless unfortunately we have to sit here on this forum speculating because there seems to be scientific answers as to the cause of their death!

[lostboy777]

This is such a terrible thing and my heart goes out to the family and friends of the victims.

It will probably be difficult to find out the REAL TRUTH and reason of death, however it does seem to be most likely some kind of poisoning whether from the air-con or not.

What I am about to say might not relate exactly to this case but atleast it might give some information to those who don't really know how some things are in Thailand.

One thing for sure is that not all, but many Thai's are experts at passing blame and misleading the truth, and I am sure it will not be different in this case. They will tell you anything as long as they earn money out of it. Sometimes its an air-con room you book in an travel agency, only to find out it is a fan room when you arrive,,,, or maybe a precious jewell you buy that is infact a piece of plastic,,, many will say or do anything at a price....including 'officials'. Often they blame violent crimes on Burmese in order to give them more reason for the modern slavery that happens everyday to illegal Burmese immigrants. Tourists often get murdered in Ko Phangan and usually the official report says 'drowning' or 'drug over-dose', when infact it is often murder which stems from a small drunken arguement about a woman or a swear-word......, or ok, sometimes a tourist buys some dr#gs from a Thai, the dr#gs are fake so the tourist goes back to complain only to be found later 'drowned', or 'over-dosed' ..... a non-self-inflicted over-dose may I add.

Thailand is the number 1 in the world / per capita for homocide with a gun, and most Thai men have guns.

Tourists to Thailand are often mislead by the 'Thai smile' and 'friendliness', but what they don't realize is Thai's smile at people they hate or will later kill, this is just their body language.

Life is rather cheap in Thailand compared with most countries in the world, so in this case I am quite confident the reports will state what ever is the best for 'Thailand' or 'Phi Phi' or 'Tourism', forgetting that the families need to know the TRUTH, and the truth needs to be known in order for things to improve in the future.

A snorkelling boat sank in Phi Phi 2 years ago with some deaths and injuries, and the report said that it was a 'freak' wave or 'big storm' or something like that, but what they forgot to mention was that the boat was registered for about 35 people and there was about 60 people on it! I was living in Phi Phi at that time and there was no waves that day as I was in a boat in the same area. Also a few years ago a Belgium guy got held down on the floor by 2 Thai's while another one shot him through the back of the head, [a drunken arguement about a woman] and although the killer got a life-sentence, the 2 that held down the tourist were back in Phi Phi just a week or so later and might still be there now, I don't know as I haven't been there for a long time.

The TRUTH and 'official' reports are not always as they seem.

[harrymand]

Neither the Bangkok Post or The Nation are reporting on these deaths in Phi Phi and I wrote them 2 days ago,

but the Swedish woman strangled on a Krabi beach has a mention .

That speaks volumes about what is going on.

Read before you write!! Not SWEDISH but SWISS!!!!!! That is Switzerland, a country in mid Europe!

[Soupdragon]

That is not entirely true as I have heard they even have shark on ice at some of the restaurants in Phi Phi. really stupid of them but the dive industry has not been able to reason with the village idiots to stop this practice. Most divers know that sharks are becoming endangered. There are even restaurants in Phuket with shark on the menu but not much the dive industry can do except not patronize them.

So you haven't been on Phi Phi ??? When I lived there just about every restaurant had a shark on its display table out front. They started with good size sharks but over the years they got smaller and smaller until all they could get we pre breeding age juveniles, not even good to eat. The dive industry tried to stop this practice we even put fliers on every tree and building explaining to tourists that eating shark was having a really negative effect on the local ecosystems and not to eat shark but they were torn down as quick as we put them up. But this is a very different point than about the Puffer Fish, just trust me when I say they are not caught around Phi Phi and no way they are in the restaurants.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Soupdragon

[Maxi101]

just spit balling here

it is not uncommon for people to get gastroenteritis on holiday and then become dehydrated from vomiting and diarrhoea. some people are able to rehydrate and keep those fluids in while others need to go on a drip. Could the fault lay at the door of the hospital for wrong treatments? Would dehydration alone kill someone so quickly?

I have not read the whole thread so if a cause has been determined forgive me.

I hope the family get answers and my sympathies go to them

Well while reading this all, I do so with a sick feeling - confused whats behind that - but the more as I have been in a compareable situation and surely was on the best way to die if I wouldn't have been brought to the hospital. That wasn't at Phi Phi island but in the deepest Esarn. Vomiting and Diarriah attacks - at the same time so sitting on the pot and vomiting happend just in front of me at the same time on the floor.

It happened in a timeframe of 2 hours and got so hard that I passed out and fell, shortly after got picked up and came back to sense. I got so weak in a very short time so that I even couldn't pull my trousers up or could walk straight (not one drop alcohol for all the cynical folks). My wife put me on a bike behind her (driving) and another guy behind me, caring so I won't fall.

20 min later at the hospital my blood pressure was very low (forget the numbers by now) but it was life treathening - then they put me on the drip and life came slowly back. Next day I was fine and one day after I could leave hospital.

I have been strong, boxing and sportive -and this happened some years ago, maybe that safed my life.

It happend so quick that I thought somebody did cut open my vains. And I had cramps. Besides, no body else had trouble.

Nothing compared to that poor women who lost their lifes, and Iam sure the circumstances are totally different.

I only state this - that it is known, that indeed such things can happen out of the nothing and it goes really scaring fast. I still don't know what it has been what struck me so hard.

I believed a long time that I got poisoned, but never found out.

maxi

[1Lucky]

so, a Norwegian tourist died on April 1 of unknown causes and the guest house was allowed to remain open for business? &lt;deleted&gt;?! and now another two lives lost and apparently it is still open for business? The guest house might be neither directly nor indirectly to blame, but this circumstance seems to obvious to ignore... am I wrong?

As I read the articles and postings above the earlier death was of a foreigner who stayed at a different guesthouse. The recent deaths however were to 3 people who stayed in the same guesthouse at the same time - in rooms that were next to each other. Whilst there are similarities it is also possible that the earlier death is completely unconnected to the more recent deaths. It would be interesting to hear if the 2 girls who were staying in one room had any other connection with the couple staying next door at all (including eating or drinking at the same restaurant that day) - if not then I would expect that the Guesthouse itself would need to be very carefully looked at.

I really feel for the people involved.

[faranginbkk]

Yes, I agree with the above post that since they stayed in rooms next to each other, the problem may lie in the guesthouse. The bf of the American girl who died mentioned a strong, chemical smell in the room when they checked in. Perhaps the guest house had sprayed with pesticides? It is common in Thailand to use pesticides that have been banned in the West.

Anyway, if the guesthouse is responsible in any way, they are likely to conceal any guilt and not admit it.

[brahmburgers]

It's probably too late now to find out, but there should be thorough testing of the containers that each of the unfortunate travelers drank from - in the hours before their travails.

About once or twice a year, there are news items - where a poisonous substance is unwittingly stored in a benign container. Example: pesticide stored in a 2nd hand commercial water bottle. There was one last year, out of China, where a mislabeled container of some sort of poisonous chemical was tragically used as an ingredient - to make food for schoolkids.

The possibility of such carelessness at Phi Phi should be thoroughly checked out. However, we don't know if anything is being checked out, thoroughly or otherwise - because we've rec'd zero updates on whether there are experts on the scene at the guest house. If anyone gets news of an actual scientific investigation and/or it's preliminary findings, please post it here on T.Visa.

[Johpa]

I am no expert on this type of treatment plant but I will say that the island of Phi Phi has been way over developed for the natural resources to cope with.

If memory serves me correctly, Koh Phi Phi was, back in the early 1980s, a nature reserve without any overnight facilities. One visited by boat on day trips.

[kriswillems]

Pufferfish is also called in Thai "Fish-meat-chicken" because the meat looks and tastes like chicken. They will never show the whole fish when selling it (because it's illegal since 6 years ago). It's used to make fishballs (look chin pla) or it's used to replace chicken meat in all kinds of cheap meals (f.i. korean style barbeque's). It costs about 10B/kilo and is sold at many places in Thailand. The pufferfish looks very innocent when it is not angry. It's not a rare fish like a shark. There are many and they are easy to catch by fishermen. See photo on top.

http://www.boybdream.com/manager-news-cont...php?newid=51083

[annabel]

Sickens me that the owner repeatedly is trying to blame drinking and partying as a cause of DEATH for 2 seperate people that didn't associate and 2 others getting sick at the same time. Guy deserves some form of punishment just for saying that.

Well is this it then...? Nothing more to say since May 8th.... a couple of days of super high hype and now..? Everybody just carries on as usual ...?

I think this incident is well worth carrying on and getting to the bottom of it for all of us ....

but looks like the link is dead or has a new one started that I was not informed of on an e-mail like I usually am for all other mundane things ...? Or is it that the thrill has slowly tappered off ...?

If so , then what a dissapointment for her brother who is counting on this link to get a true picture ...!!!

Hey , all you specialists and analysts out there .... are you just dropping this now that it is a week old and now boring after all the venting and speculations or what ..?? Like everything else that gets dropped once the fizz is gone ...???

Wow , please tell me it is not and that there is another link that i just can see rght now

[annabel]

Where do you all come from /..??? Pufferfish , Shark fish ....etc all the other non sense ...??

They ate ( the 2 girls ) rice, pasta ...NO FISH ....The americans ate HAMBURGERS ....God!! WHat does this have to do with 2 totally unassocited people dying of the same causes which is OBVIUOUSLY NOT FOOD RELATED !!! Mama Mia ...THEY DIDN"T EAT FISH !! SO what are you all going on about ...???? They didn't even eat anything that was the same or even similar...Or are you confusing the Thai Saying of = Same / Same but different ???????????

They were in the same guest house in seperate rooms that were side by side...Alchool also not a factor since the Americans didnt even drink that nite .../..You all go off on so totally irrelevant tangeants and it is sooooo painfull to read as it is soooo unassociated with any of the facts .... Oye...!!

[balo]

VG story today:

Thai police checks for toxic gas that may have leaked into the room where Julie Michelle Bergheim (22) and Jill St. Onge (26) slept in before they died.

The local Phi Phi police can not determine why the two young women from Norway and the United States died.

According to Andaman Times, the preliminary autopsy report shows that the cause of death of Julie Michelle Bergheim is acute gastritis combined with severe dehydration . Intense vomiting in combination with alcohol intake should have made her very dehydrated. The final autopsy report will be ready in about two months according to the newspaper.

Foodpoisening have been the main theory for the police and health authorities , but other causes will also be looked into.

Following the two deaths, there have been a number of speculations , but two theories have so far been looked into:

Foodpoisening: Poisoning suffered through food or drinks may have resulted in violent vomiting and diarrhea that leads to dehydration .

Gas inhalation: the fiancé of the deceased American woman Jill St. Onge believes his girlfriend died of toxic gas from the air conditioning system or from a water treatment plant which is located just outside the guest house.

Gas theory is supported by the local doctor Buncha who threated the Norwegian woman after she was found in the room.

- It could be gas from the treatment plant that may have leaked into the room. Health authorities have investigated into this, but so far nothing have been confirmed, according to Buncha Kakhomh.

He told VG Nett that the survivor, the 20 year old told the police about the strong odor in the room before they were sick. According to VG Nett the smell was so intense that she had to hide under the bed sheet.

Since the two women stayed next door in the same guest house the gas theory have been looked into. The police say they so far have not found any similarities in the food they ate. While the Norwegian had pasta, the American woman had pizza and hamburgers. According to the fiancé she had not consumed any alcoholic drinks .

A local police officer told VG ' the deceased Norwegian woman was conscious and she could talk when she arrived to the local hospital on Phi Phi.

- When I came to the hospital shortly after she could answer a few questions. Two hours later I got the phone that she was dead.'

Police on Phi Phi did yesterday new investigations of the ventilation in the room. The treatment plant was built after the tsunami. The project is based on a Danish environmental technology. The plant is located near the guesthouse and in periods its creating smells.

The owner of the guest house denies that the treatment plant poses problems.

- Sometimes its an odor, but not so much, says Ruthuma Choopit, who fears for the future of the guest house if it does not get a quick answer to what happened.

The guest house is now open and accepting overnight guests as before. Rooms four and five bears no mark of the drama that took place there. The norwegian woman that survived was discharged from the hospital in Phuket on Thursday.

The guest house owner Choopit do not think that the deaths that happened within a day had any connection with the guest house.

She have slept in room four and five herself in a total of three nights after the death without feeling any discomfort or have been sick.

- If there had been something, I would have been dead also.

The owner has lived in a separate apartment in the guest house for five years. The cleaning girl Dararat Pinna found the Norwegian women in the room, unable to take care of themselves. She then alarmed the receptionist in the nearby hotel that spoke English.

[cloudhopper]

Where do you all come from /..??? Pufferfish , Shark fish ....etc all the other non sense ...??

They ate ( the 2 girls ) rice, pasta ...NO FISH ....The americans ate HAMBURGERS ....God!! WHat does this have to do with 2 totally unassocited people dying of the same causes which is OBVIUOUSLY NOT FOOD RELATED !!! Mama Mia ...THEY DIDN"T EAT FISH !! SO what are you all going on about ...???? They didn't even eat anything that was the same or even similar...Or are you confusing the Thai Saying of = Same / Same but different ???????????

They were in the same guest house in seperate rooms that were side by side...Alchool also not a factor since the Americans didnt even drink that nite .../..You all go off on so totally irrelevant tangeants and it is sooooo painfull to read as it is soooo unassociated with any of the facts .... Oye...!!

Hi I come from California, where even there are found many ways that fatal toxins are produced in a wide variety of foods (like hamburger) without the need to theorize about puffer fish or industrial/agricultural chemical contaminants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptomain

[Junglejumbo]

My conclusions to date.

1. Was NOT from the air-con. Air-cons re-cycle air in the room and do NOT bring air in from outside. Air passes over a coolant and hot air is extracted via the compressor. The coolant is stuck in a pipe and doesn't come into the room.

2. NOT from puffer fish. Although I was the one who originally threw this idea onto the board, a careful look at the symptoms elsewhere confirms it could not be puffer fish which causes paralysis and only slight vomiting in the first hour.

3. It probably isn't cyanide. Again, I listed it first off but on reading several doctor reports on the web it's totally agreed that the color of the victim turns cheery red or slightly pink not blue as described by the fiancee. NO cyanide also rules out the Thai vegetable mentioned as this produces a cyanide related substance giving similar symptoms.

4. Poison from waste water treatment...Here is a link talking about the dangers of these plants.

http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protecti...er_wastewtr.pdf

We don't know the exact distance from the room but these plants are VERY DANGEROUS. Although most of the hazards involve liquids, there are a few gasses that can be released including chlorine related and a couple of others. Another gas becomes lethal when mixed with tobacco smoke. Rats also usually live in the sludge. Owners of waste water treatment plants also need to store a variety of dangerous chemicals, most of which are transparent liquids.

Therefore, I am beginning to look at the fiance's initial feeling. However, I am still confused as to why not the rest of the people in the guest house didn't also suffer? The air con should have pushed remaining gasses out through under the door once it was switched on.

The owner said she slept in the room after the deaths. I find this hard to believe, but was the waste water treatment plant functioning?

Has anyone checked the waste water treatment plant. I see pics of the guest house, now the bedrooms but NOT this plant??? Why not??

Edited May 10, 2009 by Junglejumbo