Phuket Gazette and property developer story

[83110pkt]

I dont know one person who would live in Phuket.

You should get out more.

yes I agree!!! Where have you been, thousands of foreigners live in phuket hmmm

[taxin]

This is old news. Joe Cole did indeed invest in this property, but only his time and name. He was given the condo for free (i.e. an endorsement).

Lursuang tried it with a couple others in Phuket, Formula 1 drivers Kimi Raikonen and Louis Hamilton were names that were also being punted out to developers. Unfortunately they got greedy in Phuket. Joe Cole only got a 12 million apartment in Hua Hin, the figures going around Phuket were in the 30-40 million bracket. The developers in Phuket quickly sniffed a rat, which wasnt so difficult especially when the name Lersuang was mentioned.

Its big business, marketing firm in the UK were fronting it. Deal was that you literally give away a penthouse unit to a celebrity, the celeb gets the place for free and the marketing company gets 20% of the value of the property that was given away. In return for the developer he got lots of sales, because people buy things that famous people buy !

They had a promotion campaign based on the "sale" of the unit to Joe Cole which was called "Be my neighbor". They even set up a timeshare operation in Bangkok to promote it, big office with pictures all over the place of Joe Cole. It closed down within 2 months.

Lersuang have to be the biggest failure to ever come to Phuket. Im surprised the guys behind it are still alive !

[LivinLOS]

The datum is Mean Sea Level. You can look at the tide tables and the particulart height of the tide on the day you want to make the comparison. Maximum tideal difference at Spring tides in Phuket is about 3 m, so Mean Sea Level is about 1.5 m about maximum Spring Low. Ti do it more accurately you can have reference to one of the about 200 bench marks mentioned above which are strung along all the coastal road of the island and around 500 m intervals. Go to the OboTo in your area and look up the one closest to the place which you want to you.

In fact the Environmental Regulations state that NO part of a building, including the roof may be higher than 80 m above Mean Sea Level.

OK so my point that there is no fixed datum that is used as a reference is valid.. Going and averaging mean sea level isnt the same as having a datum. I thought you were saying there were 4 datum points established as benchmarks. Any sane country with 80m build laws would have a few points put in exactly at 5 or 10m like ordnance survey marks.. But hey that would deprive the land officers of all the grease passing marginal plots !!

As to the 80m build limit.. The tessabaans that I have dealt with have all stated.. under 80m for the ground floor, it can even slope up the hillside starting below 80 to whatever the build height is for that classification of location (hill land / distance from sea, etc.. what zone).. Again they classify the land zoning purely on who and how much you pay.

I know for a fact that the Patong one advises 'cutting into' the hill at 79m with a rear retaining and a front retaining to make the footings at 79 and build up..

[LivinginKata]

I know for a fact that the Patong one advises 'cutting into' the hill at 79m with a rear retaining and a front retaining to make the footings at 79 and build up..

It's my understanding that the 80m limit is applied to the TOP of the building... ??

[LivinLOS]

Again not what the Patong interpretation is.. 100% sure as the land was levelled to be just under and then a tall building put up on it..

Same goes for up on haasip pee.. They defined the 80 and then gave permission to build up from there.. Tho where they did this was probably closer to 120 anyway !!

[thaiwanderer]

whether a particular plot is *DEEMED* to be above or below *80m* is a matter of public record and there is no great secret to this - the land office can identify your plot and their records will confirm above / below 80m and other zoning restrictions - there is no greasing to be done at this stage its simply obtaining existant records

(* however this was decided and whether it is 'actually 80m' is irrelevant so anyone can measure it with any system they want and it makes no difference whatsoever)

if the records show the land is (*deemed* to be) below 80m - its ok to build (and for total building height then to exceed 80m subject to any other zoning restrictions)

once you are involved in measuring the height and arguing, persuading or greasing an official (any more than usual!) its because the land is clearly (as *deemed* by public record) above 80m

that is not to say that you cannot get permission to build there or that there will ever be a problem

there is a hill creeping effect where people talk of borderline, alternate 'more accurate' measurement and point to existing structures ignoring the fact that much of the building further down from the hill from them (or even further up the hill) is plainly illegal and has been permitted or tolerated incorrectly - it is not about shades of grey

there is no liability for the incorrect (negligent or otherwise) actions of a government official or department

- this of course goes for anything including the drawing of the existant boundaries but is far more readily (in comparison) #likely# to be applied to permission to build

(exactly how 'likely' is a matter for debate as to whether attitudes will change, whether it will always be tolerated or whether it remains expedient to allow it)(or whether more grease will be requested years down the line)

edit:....bringing it back to the thread's topic

would not a good developer have such basics as permission to build and as certain of no problems there as possible BEFORE selling anything?

Edited May 23, 2009 by thaiwanderer

[bellachg]

you can find out from the land office whether a plot is DEEMED by public record to be above or below 80m (how that was decided and whether it is or is not actually correct is wholly irrelevant)

there is no need for site inspections and arguing the case of how high it is unless land office say its over - you might then get approval BUT are opening yourself for potential problems which you should consider whether you can resolve and keep resolved

This is wrong. The land office is ONLY responsible for boundaries and horizontal position. There are MANY land titles on Phuket which are over 80 m and much higher. Land Office surveyors are not equipped and not trained to measure elevations. I was personally present when one land office surveyor was asked by a developer to tell him where the 80 m line was. He got out his GPS and did not allow for the difference between the Geoid and the gravity surface. He just did not know the difference.

It is the building approval and town planning department office who are responsiblefor this.

[bellachg]

The datum is Mean Sea Level. You can look at the tide tables and the particulart height of the tide on the day you want to make the comparison. Maximum tideal difference at Spring tides in Phuket is about 3 m, so Mean Sea Level is about 1.5 m about maximum Spring Low. Ti do it more accurately you can have reference to one of the about 200 bench marks mentioned above which are strung along all the coastal road of the island and around 500 m intervals. Go to the OboTo in your area and look up the one closest to the place which you want to you.

In fact the Environmental Regulations state that NO part of a building, including the roof may be higher than 80 m above Mean Sea Level.

OK so my point that there is no fixed datum that is used as a reference is valid.. Going and averaging mean sea level isnt the same as having a datum. I thought you were saying there were 4 datum points established as benchmarks. Any sane country with 80m build laws would have a few points put in exactly at 5 or 10m like ordnance survey marks.. But hey that would deprive the land officers of all the grease passing marginal plots !!

As to the 80m build limit.. The tessabaans that I have dealt with have all stated.. under 80m for the ground floor, it can even slope up the hillside starting below 80 to whatever the build height is for that classification of location (hill land / distance from sea, etc.. what zone).. Again they classify the land zoning purely on who and how much you pay.

I know for a fact that the Patong one advises 'cutting into' the hill at 79m with a rear retaining and a front retaining to make the footings at 79 and build up..

You did not read all of my message above. There are some 200 bench marks all around the coast of the island at about 500 m intervals. These are all solid concrete markers and well described in the relevant literature together with precise elevations referred to Mean Sea Level and also GPS co-ordinates so you can find them with your hand-held GPS, as well as detailed descriptions in relation to nearby buildings etc. Most are on public lands, schools, bridges health stations etc. Of course you will have to be able to read Thai for the descriptions, after all this is Thailand. The density of those bench marks is equal to similar points in any civilised country of Europe or of North America.

The actuasl legislation, and I have read it, says "no part of the building" may be above 80 m, in those very words. The Tessaban's may very well be lenient in this matter and apply it to the ground floor, in return for the proper monetary consideration of course.

[LivinLOS]

whether a particular plot is *DEEMED* to be above or below *80m* is a matter of public record and there is no great secret to this - the land office can identify your plot and their records will confirm above / below 80m and other zoning restrictions - there is no greasing to be done at this stage its simply obtaining existant records

Not my experiences at all..

Plots have no elevation records on the land title (please post one with them if you disagree) and the land office cannot tell you its height from sea level without coming out to assess.. And that assessment is usually the first part of the greasing of the wheels..

[LivinLOS]

You did not read all of my message above. There are some 200 bench marks all around the coast of the island at about 500 m intervals. These are all solid concrete markers and well described in the relevant literature together with precise elevations referred to Mean Sea Level and also GPS co-ordinates so you can find them with your hand-held GPS, as well as detailed descriptions in relation to nearby buildings etc. Most are on public lands, schools, bridges health stations etc. Of course you will have to be able to read Thai for the descriptions, after all this is Thailand. The density of those bench marks is equal to similar points in any civilised country of Europe or of North America.

The actuasl legislation, and I have read it, says "no part of the building" may be above 80 m, in those very words. The Tessaban's may very well be lenient in this matter and apply it to the ground floor, in return for the proper monetary consideration of course.

Can I have the GPS co-ords of any one of these 200 bench marks please ??

Or a detailed description of where to find them.. Because I have specifically addressed this question multiple times from multiple approaches to the guys in the land office, and the tessabaan / planning office, and every single one has said there wasnt any fixed datum points to work from. Not only have I asked but I have had smart Thais also ask them and got nowhere.

[bellachg]

Can I have the GPS co-ords of any one of these 200 bench marks please ??

Or a detailed description of where to find them.. Because I have specifically addressed this question multiple times from multiple approaches to the guys in the land office, and the tessabaan / planning office, and every single one has said there wasnt any fixed datum points to work from. Not only have I asked but I have had smart Thais also ask them and got nowhere.

Yes, certainly. I have a copy of the entire bench mark book, which includes instructions to the local OBoTo staff how to use them, and have actually inspected several of these benchmarks (and used them) in different parts of the island. Tell me what particular locality you are interested in and I shall pick out a few in that area for you. If it is close to Thalang where I live I might even look them up myself unless it is one of the ones I have already used.

You can contact me also via e-mail at guenter@..................... or at 086-946 7240. We can also meet, if you like, and I can show you the entire book.

[LivinLOS]

Yes, certainly. I have a copy of the entire bench mark book, which includes instructions to the local OBoTo staff how to use them, and have actually inspected several of these benchmarks (and used them) in different parts of the island. Tell me what particular locality you are interested in and I shall pick out a few in that area for you. If it is close to Thalang where I live I might even look them up myself unless it is one of the ones I have already used.

You can contact me also via e-mail at guenter@..................... or at 086-946 7240. We can also meet, if you like, and I can show you the entire book.

That would be excellent.. your email has been removed tho.

Lets say Kalim / Patong bay first as I know the tessabaans interpretations there in the most detail..

Then I will calibrate the barometric altimeter and have a test with that v GPS from thier datums.

[bellachg]

That would be excellent.. your email has been removed tho.

Lets say Kalim / Patong bay first as I know the tessabaans interpretations there in the most detail..

Then I will calibrate the barometric altimeter and have a test with that v GPS from thier datums.

OK, here we go:

The actual markers are small round brass plaques about 4 cm diameter set either in a concrete 30 cm square base when in an area covered by earth, or set in a concrete surface such as a side walk. The MSL elevation and number of marker is inscribed on the plaque. The position is expressed in Metres East and Metres North in the UTM system, WGS84 datum. So you have to set your GPS to UTM rather than Longitude and Latitude.

There are 4 of them along the Patong Beach road as follows:

SMA 64 near the front of the guard house kiosk at the Diamond Cliff Resort 422521 m E, 874230 m N. MSL elevation 8.20 m

SMA 66 near or on the Dolphin monument on the beach 422484 m E, 873136 m N, elevation 3.17 m

SMA 68 on the sidewalk at the Soi Bangla and beach road intersection 422317 m E, 872649 m N, elevation 3.04 m

SMA 70 on the lip of the bridge over the klong at the south side of Patong beach 421426 m E, 871698 m N, elevation 3.78 m

None of these four I have had occasion to look for myself. The nearest one I have actually seen is at Kata Beach on the concrete floor of the sala near the right angle turn of the beach road just north of the Meridian Hotel:

SMA 82 at 422287 m E, 864947 m N, elevation 2.04 m.

The elevations are quite precise, as I have checked a couple against each other with precise levelling instrumentation. They also agree with actual Mean Sea Level observations I have done from the actual water level as corrected for the particular High or Low tide of that day. However, I did find that the horizontal location on at least one of the ones I used is out by up to about 50 m.

Yes they do delete the e-mail addresses on this board. But you can find my web site with e-mail address by googling my name Guenter Bellach.

[LivinLOS]

Thanks your the first person whose ever had concrete (pardon the pun) info on this and its not for the want of asking..

I hope to get some time tomorrow to go and find these and have a check to my gps / altimeter..

[Okidoki]

So... What is happening about all of this? Have Lersuang gone bust? Clients? The projects?