Phuket Gazette and property developer story

[pagallim]

I previously added a post to the specific area concerning the ability of a 'poster' to influence the withdrawal of a post, through the offices of the Phuket Gazette.

That response seems to have disappeared, except for the posts that I was responding to.

I invited comments from the Moderators, as to whether such a threat could be undertaken, and enforced. There does not appear to be any answer.

Grateful if the Moderators could elaborate on their stance on these subjects.

[saneroad]

Anyone seen the report? Should have been out by now ya?

[sadman]

Without any knowledge of this matter, I don't offer any view at all on its specifics, but would just like to point something out for the benefit of those who aren't au fait with the newspaper.

The Daily Mirror is a massively successful money-making machine, at one time owned by Robert Maxwell, and in direct competition with the Rupert Murdoch-owned section of the media (particularly The Sun). It is a low-brow (IMHO) tabloid, relying on sensationalist stories and with a traditional left-wing bias. They are past masters at phrases such as "we tried to get hold of them but they wouldn't return our calls" that may or may not be true but that would be very difficult to challenge in the courts. As they say, never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

If I read in the Daily Mirror that the sun was out at midday, I'd have a look outside before I believed it.

[paulfromphuket]

sarcasm from SB, say it ain't so !

This time (believe it, or, not) no sarcasm. I mean every word.

It's inevitable. Too many businesses fighting for market share in a shrinking market results in fierce competion and/or bancruptcies.

But Thai logic is, put prices up to compensate for the loss of customers...ists a sad fact but true.....if anything prices will increase

accept your point generally but would draw a distinction between Lersuang and THAI logic

The distinction been honor amongst thieves perhaps

[thaiwanderer]

Without any knowledge of this matter, I don't offer any view at all on its specifics, but would just like to point something out for the benefit of those who aren't au fait with the newspaper.

The Daily Mirror is a massively successful money-making machine, at one time owned by Robert Maxwell, and in direct competition with the Rupert Murdoch-owned section of the media (particularly The Sun). It is a low-brow (IMHO) tabloid, relying on sensationalist stories and with a traditional left-wing bias. They are past masters at phrases such as "we tried to get hold of them but they wouldn't return our calls" that may or may not be true but that would be very difficult to challenge in the courts. As they say, never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

If I read in the Daily Mirror that the sun was out at midday, I'd have a look outside before I believed it.

and in comparison the gazette is the gold standard of independent journalism

[sadman]

and in comparison the gazette is the gold standard of independent journalism

I don't know about that, I'm just commenting on the Daily Mirror.

[pagallim]

The PG kept it's word, report below. A lot of anonymous contributor's, but overall the story makes sense:

Wednesday, May 20, 2009

Phuket property under fire: Lersuang revisited

An artist's rendering of the stalled Infinity Heights project, high up over Bangtao Beach. Some say it's the altitude itself that may put the project at risk.

PHUKET: Earlier this month, Web blog thephuketinsider.com and the Phuket Gazette reported on an article in the UK’s Daily Mirror about the Phuket-based Lersuang Group. The Mirror story put Lersuang in the international limelight, saying that customers were demanding their money back but offering no comments from company management.

The Phuket Gazette promised to get comments from the companies involved and to compile a report on the holding company as well as the fate of several of its individual development projects.

Here is our report, based on comprehensive interviews with Lersuang CEO Errol Salih as well as property industry insiders, Lersuang customers and a new investor in one of the Group's key properties.

Background on the Holding Company

Lersuang Group Holdings Co Ltd was established with registered capital of 30 million baht (approx US$ 860,000) on July 19, 2005. Documents obtained from the Phuket Companies Registry office list five individuals as directors and shareholders: Selwyn Casey, Errol Salih, Viroj Chinpracha, Jumlong Sittichok and Maedta Vissesombat.

Mr Maedta is the only director not profiled on Lersuang’s website. However, buyers of units in Lersuang’s incomplete Tamarind Hills project are being told that “Dr Maedta” is now handling that project, according to Lersuang CEO Errol Salih.

Completed Projects in Phuket

Phuket residential projects successfully completed by Lersuang include Club Lersuang, comprising 56 apartments; Lersuang Apartments, 12 units; Lersuang Town Houses, with four free-standing villas plus six duplex homes; and Lersuang Apartments Phase 2, comprising six premium apartments. All five of these projects are located in the Bang Tao/Surin Beach area.

Owner Comments

According to a Lersuang property owner who, like most, was willing to speak to the Gazette only on condition of anonymity, early buyers of Lersuang properties are satisfied. “It’s the ones who came in later who are having problems,” he said.

Asked if he was happy with the quality of the construction and workmanship of his home, he said that he had been living there since its completion about three years ago and was satisfied with the construction standards. However, although he lives in the property, he and his neighbors are concerned that their assets might now be at risk.

“Nothing that I’ve paid for can be registered. The land that they [the project’s units] sit on is in question. We’re in limbo at the moment and we’re negotiating to get the matter settled,” he said.

The homeowner wouldn’t reveal which of the Lersuang developments he resides in but said that the issue he and his neighbors face is whether the units should have been built in the first place.

“I don’t think it’s a con,” the homeowner said. “There is a road that was laid around the property by the OrBorTor. It has drainage and electricity poles running along it but there’s an issue with the Land Department, who claim that the road is in the wrong place and should have been put somewhere else. Hopefully, there is no need to go to court over this issue and everything can be sorted out,” he said.

An Insider's View

A respected local property professional, who also insisted on anonymity and who claimed to have insider knowledge of the Lersuang Group’s operations, contacted the Gazette and said that the group began having difficulties with cash flow in November 2008. “They did do some small developments in the Bang Tao area which were completed and very successful. But the later ones were too big, way out of their league,” he added.

He went on to explain that the company stopped paying some of its staff and suppliers late last year. “I know they were having land issues. They didn’t exercise enough due diligence. I believe they were still trying to sell to customers while having the land issues,” the source said.

“On one of the projects, the access was not correct. It went across land belonging to a temple,” he added.

The source told the Gazette that he’d watched Lersuang attract a series of investors one after another from around the world. The company would use up the advance payments from their first buyer and then find a new buyer to cover their debts, he said.

“Eventually, the growth in debt outstripped the company’s ability to generate cash, and they couldn’t attract any more investors,” he added.

Asked if he thought Lersuang intended to run away from its debts, the source said ‘no’, that he knew the directors were still on the island and that they had been making efforts to pay the people they owed.

Stalled Projects – Phuket

About two years ago, Lersuang launched Turtle Cove. About a year later, Tamarind Hills was started in Layan. Both projects remain unfinished.

The group went on to launch Infinity Heights – two- and three-bedroom luxury apartments above Bangtao Beach, with prices starting at 13.4 million baht – again selling off plan. They also launched Lersuang Village, which comprises detached and semi-detached houses in Cherng Talay.

Lersuang Group CEO Errol Salih told the Gazette that Lersuang has a 50% share in the Infinity Heights project with the remaining 50% belonging to a company called A-Plan, which initially raised the capital to start the development.

Pressed for reasons behind the stalling of Infinity Heights, Mr Salih admitted that one of the issues, ironically, is the ‘height’ of the site.

He said that on the strength of advice from an early survey, his company initially believed the entire site was within Phuket’s legal height limit of 80 meters over sea level, but that it now appears that some parts of the land are higher than that. He adds, however, that there is still enough land below the 80-meter level to build ‘financially viable’ homes.

Mr Salih also blames construction delays on local political turmoil and global economic issues, adding, however, that buyers would eventually see their homes completed.

When asked to comment on Turtle Cove, he said that Lersuang originally owned 40% of the shares in that project, but that those shares had now been ‘given away’ to a private investor who is currently revamping the plans.

On Tamarind Hills, he said that Lersuang initially owned 1/3rd of the project, but had also ‘given away’ its shares – in this case, to Sepco Sustainable Energy Products – and that Mr Maedta Vissesombat was now running the operations and dealing with the project's customers.

Stalled Projects – Hua Hin

On its website (www.lersuang.com), Lersuang lists Infinity Heights, Lersuang Village, Turtle Cove and Sariya Kamala Villas as its current Phuket projects. Also listed are developments in Hua Hin, including the Hua Hin Country Club Apartments (123 luxury units with five penthouses) and the Black Mountain Golf Course.

Joe Cole, the Daily Mirror, and the Hua Hin Country Club Apartments

It was the Hua Hin Country Club Apartments that received attention in the Daily Mirror story, which focused on Chelsea Football Team celebrity Joe Cole’s association with that project as the result of his appearance in widespread publicity for it. It’s not clear precisely what the footballer’s deal was with the developer, and Mr Salih was not at liberty to elaborate, saying only that Lersuang’s association with the Hua Hin Country Club Apartments was “as a brand name only”.

“No one has lost any money there [Hua Hin]. There will be a project that is done there,” he insists.

Mr Salih went on to say that a “new partner” has agreed to take over the Hua Hin Country Club project.

“He’s got some other investors. He is going to build something that is maybe not as grand, but something that nobody will lose money [on]. Whatever money we have received is going back to do that development,” Mr Salih said.

“As far as I know, they [Joe Cole and the new Hua Hin partner] are on very amicable terms; nobody's going to lose money. Most sales were done prior to Joe Cole being involved. He has not lost any money and neither have the people there. Nobody has lost any money at all in any of our projects,” he said.

The new Hua Hin partner, who also required anonymity to speak with the Gazette, confirmed that he was one of the original investors in the Hua Hin Country Club project and that he is working on a “rescue package” to ensure that those who had invested in the development will eventually get something.

“The land in question covers 8.5 rai but we won’t need all that for what we have in mind. Nothing has been built so far. At the moment, I’ve got some drawings; I’ve got some ideas; and I’ve spoken to one or two of the buyers,” the partner said.

He confirmed that initial plans were for 123 condo units, but that the new plans are for something a lot smaller, a residential project that he expects to be finalized and underway by July this year.

“What I’m telling people at this end is that Errol and the guys down there [in Phuket] haven’t run away. If they were going to run away they would have run away with a couple hundred million baht a few years ago,” he said.

“The whole thing will be new. It will be a totally new name, new design, new prices – everything,” he enthused.

Asked if Lersuang would continue to be involved in the Hua Hin project, he said that it wouldn't carry the Lersuang name or have anything else to do with that company, but that if Lersuang wanted to help out with sales, they’d be “very welcome” to do so.

Cash Flow, Buyer Defaults, and the crisis in Phuket

Back in Phuket, Mr Salih admitted that Lersuang has had “some cash flow problems”, and that some Lersuang customers were “understandably upset”.

“We could not manage Phuket and Hua Hin under the circumstances and the present political climate.

“Tamarind Hills was probably one of the most difficult ones for us and we really didn’t know how to cope with it. It’s complex,” he said.

Hong Kong-based companies and financial advisors were responsible for raising the initial capital to start Tamarind Hills, Mr Salih says. “They were looking after all the money in Hong Kong via lawyers’ accounts. They have had some internal problems,” he said.

“We were originally the minority shareholder... But we ended up having to take over the shares of various parties at Tamarind Hills to protect the original land owners. We had...no choice but to take that project, even though it was too big for us. We would never have done it on our own [in other circumstances],” he said.

Mr Salih gave several reasons for Lersuang’s cash flow problems, namely buyer defaults on progress payments; political instability; insufficient support from the banks; and taking on too many projects at the same time.

“After the army took out the government, our turnover went from 80-100 million baht per month to zero for seven months,” he said.

“If the political unrest hadn’t happened, none of these projects would have been that much affected. Our brand name would have been very valuable. And that’s what we were trying to achieve. For the future, our plan was to sell the [Lersuang] name, like a franchise,” Mr Salih explained.

“We had very little bank support. Any foreign company in Thailand finds it very difficult to obtain credit from the banks [here],” he said.

Asked why Lersuang took on too many projects at once, Mr Salih explained that following his company’s initial success, land owners began approaching Lersuang to help develop projects. “It wasn’t a plan; it just happened,” he said.

Predictably, he also blamed the global economic slowdown. “Many of the buyers cannot complete their purchases,” he said. “We’ve got one guy with two penthouses. He’s lost 22 million pounds [sterling] in the last year in England. He told us that he would lose all his money if we finished his house,” he complained.

“We have a lot of these cases. The people would rather go to court and delay a project because they couldn’t afford to pay if the project was finished. We’ve actually written letters to say that we wouldn’t enforce the contracts. We would actually do a resale and give them their money back,” Mr Salih explained.

Salih's Summary

Asked what else needs to be done to solve the issues, Mr Salih told the Gazette that, “Going to court is pointless because no one wins. It actually jeopardizes the project because it gets bad publicity,” he said.

In closing, he stressed that Lersuang wasn’t the only company experiencing financial difficulties in the current economic climate and pleaded for more support from the government and banks for property developers.

“Who wants to invest in a country where they are shooting each other in the streets? We are here. We promote the country and we love the country. It’s difficult, though, when the BBC is reporting Thailand as one of the top five most dangerous places in the world,” he said.

– Nick Davies and Tiparintron Tanaakarachod

-- Phuket Gazette 2009-05-20

[LivinLOS]

When you read it from top to bottom tho, despite its 'give them a chance' sounding bias.. Basically Lersuang are not meeting their obligations..

Pony land titles.. Poor access legality.. 80m build limits.. Giving away shareholdings to wash their hands of it.. Downsizing developments.. Cash flow issues..

One thing after another and the blame sounds like it lies firmly on them.

[thaiwanderer]

IMHO

Salih's assessment and reasoning is totally flawed at every turn.

I can see no reason for a buyer into one of their projects to have any hope (even a false hope for them via a apparently reasoned PR defence would have been nice).

Matters are worse because by not specifying the land issue affected development/s ALL (existing and incomplete) of their projects are called into question (have my own thoughts on why Salih didn't go into that particular one).

Lots of other issues as to how the company appears to have been run.

I could pick it apart but for the moment as the article stands (for better or worse) it stands testament to the state of lersuang.

[bellachg]

So how come Lersuang got caught trying to build over the 80 m limit when other developers are getting away with it. Just look at "Millionaires Row" in Kamala.

[thaiwanderer]

So how come Lersuang got caught trying to build over the 80 m limit when other developers are getting away with it.

those that successfully build and sell above 80m can because they know how - its all part of being a developer

if not don't buy the land in the first place

[83110pkt]

Id keep this clean if I was you otherwise the post will be removed by the gazette. I dont think they want their story here before people have read it!

Is that a threat ??

Are you insinuating the gazette will lean on ThaiVisa to control the content of forum posts they dont like ?? If so source please.. if not what do you mean ??

A very interesting post..

Sorry that's not what I meant Probably shouldn't have included the IF I WAS YOU part! I was referring to the second post that was written about this site being sponsored by PG and didn't want it to be closed that was all! For all we know they may check to see what people are writing ...sorry if sounded otherwise.

[83110pkt]

So how come Lersuang got caught trying to build over the 80 m limit when other developers are getting away with it.

those that successfully build and sell above 80m can because they know how - its all part of being a developer

if not don't buy the land in the first place

Those who successfully build and sell above 80m should be put in prison i should think because IT IS ILLEGAL to build over that height unless the laws at that time are otherwise, if any officials were to actually become aware of a development that did not meet the required maximum height they can be pulled down. Its not part of being a developer at all, its more about who knows who, as with everything in thailand you can do anything if you know the right people (or pay the right people)........

[thaiwanderer]

So how come Lersuang got caught trying to build over the 80 m limit when other developers are getting away with it.

those that successfully build and sell above 80m can because they know how - its all part of being a developer

if not don't buy the land in the first place

Those who successfully build and sell above 80m should be put in prison i should think because IT IS ILLEGAL to build over that height unless the laws at that time are otherwise, if any officials were to actually become aware of a development that did not meet the required maximum height they can be pulled down. Its not part of being a developer at all, its more about who knows who, as with everything in thailand you can do anything if you know the right people (or pay the right people)........

all the officials must walk round with bags on their heads then!

- its about whats negotiable now and whether it remains tolerable / expedient

i was not defending successful developers i was pointing out what is necessary if (apparently) like lersuang you buy land that is on the cusp to the naked eye, that cannot technically be built on (but you bought it without knowing? - itself an issue of concern) and even when 'find out' can't sort it out

identifying these issues and then being able to avoid them or overcome them is all part of being a developer - in fact they are basics of just buying land

[LivinLOS]

So how come Lersuang got caught trying to build over the 80 m limit when other developers are getting away with it.

those that successfully build and sell above 80m can because they know how - its all part of being a developer

if not don't buy the land in the first place

Those who successfully build and sell above 80m should be put in prison i should think because IT IS ILLEGAL to build over that height unless the laws at that time are otherwise, if any officials were to actually become aware of a development that did not meet the required maximum height they can be pulled down. Its not part of being a developer at all, its more about who knows who, as with everything in thailand you can do anything if you know the right people (or pay the right people)........

Yes but how do you define 80m ?? Having had dealings with the tessabaan on exactly this they lick thier finger and hold it in the air !! For a start they have no datum points, no set places to calibrate from.. as this is down to the meter they had no answer to if 'sea level' meant high tide low tide or what.. Then they arrived with the oldest cheapest 5 or more year old etrex GPS unit that floated 15 or so meters in either direction.. They then sorta looked aound the patong hillsides for other buildings and tried to 'sort of' guess.. We had called the Kathu office out to get more data as the Patong tessabaan was after his envelope.. When the Kathu guy found out the Patong guy had already assessed it, and with the obvious GPS data showing he had no clue, and no way of getting a clue.. His only concern was 'what did the Patong tessabaan say'..

Thats the rigorous process of how they precisely define 80m !!

[steelepulse]

>>The company would use up the advance payments from their first buyer and then find a new buyer to cover their debts, he said.

Ponzi Scheme.  What happened to their initial capital  that they should have had to build the first phase?  

[thaiwanderer]

>>The company would use up the advance payments from their first buyer and then find a new buyer to cover their debts, he said.

Ponzi Scheme. What happened to their initial capital that they should have had to build the first phase?

that and another comment attributed to the guy did strike my cynical side as having ponzi-esque overtones which on first reading i didn't quite understand the need and thought he must have meant something else

typical phuket business model has for a long time been self financing by buyers staged payments - minimal start up capital as only need the land and sales blurb - don't break ground until high % or all pre-sold - unless over extending selves on numerous projects (itself not usually a problem unless there is a wobble)

[bellachg]

Those who successfully build and sell above 80m should be put in prison i should think because IT IS ILLEGAL to build over that height unless the laws at that time are otherwise, if any officials were to actually become aware of a development that did not meet the required maximum height they can be pulled down. Its not part of being a developer at all, its more about who knows who, as with everything in thailand you can do anything if you know the right people (or pay the right people)........

They may be able to sell to an unsuspecting buyer, but the buyer is going to be in trouble later. I know of one case where the purchaser was refused a building permit in Patong for a swimming pool because the house was over 80 m, even though he produced the "approved" building plans for the house. Another case I know of at Surin Beach where the purchaser could not re-sell because the new buyer was more careful.

[bellachg]

Yes but how do you define 80m ?? Having had dealings with the tessabaan on exactly this they lick thier finger and hold it in the air !! For a start they have no datum points, no set places to calibrate from.. as this is down to the meter they had no answer to if 'sea level' meant high tide low tide or what.. Then they arrived with the oldest cheapest 5 or more year old etrex GPS unit that floated 15 or so meters in either direction.. They then sorta looked aound the patong hillsides for other buildings and tried to 'sort of' guess.. We had called the Kathu office out to get more data as the Patong tessabaan was after his envelope.. When the Kathu guy found out the Patong guy had already assessed it, and with the obvious GPS data showing he had no clue, and no way of getting a clue.. His only concern was 'what did the Patong tessabaan say'..

Thats the rigorous process of how they precisely define 80m !!

All you have to do is employ a qualified surveyor, and there are a few around Phuket. The 80 m is measured vertically above Mean Sea Level. The Province has established official bench marks to be used for this very purpose all around the coast of the island about 4 years ago, and each of the approving offices in the local OBoTo's have a copy of the booklet which was produced at that time with very detailed instructions. Do NOT use a hand-held GPS it shows elevations as referred to the mathematical surface of the earth not the gravitational surface which is Mean Sea Level. In Phuket the separation between the Geoid (mathematical surface) and gravitational sea level is about 20 m. In other words if you take your Etrex down to the seashore it will tell you are at an elevation of around 20 m ! Try it !

[thaiwanderer]

Yes but how do you define 80m ?? Having had dealings with the tessabaan on exactly this they lick thier finger and hold it in the air !! For a start they have no datum points, no set places to calibrate from.. as this is down to the meter they had no answer to if 'sea level' meant high tide low tide or what.. Then they arrived with the oldest cheapest 5 or more year old etrex GPS unit that floated 15 or so meters in either direction.. They then sorta looked aound the patong hillsides for other buildings and tried to 'sort of' guess.. We had called the Kathu office out to get more data as the Patong tessabaan was after his envelope.. When the Kathu guy found out the Patong guy had already assessed it, and with the obvious GPS data showing he had no clue, and no way of getting a clue.. His only concern was 'what did the Patong tessabaan say'..

Thats the rigorous process of how they precisely define 80m !!

All you have to do is employ a qualified surveyor, and there are a few around Phuket. The 80 m is measured vertically above Mean Sea Level. The Province has established official bench marks to be used for this very purpose all around the coast of the island about 4 years ago, and each of the approving offices in the local OBoTo's have a copy of the booklet which was produced at that time with very detailed instructions. Do NOT use a hand-held GPS it shows elevations as referred to the mathematical surface of the earth not the gravitational surface which is Mean Sea Level. In Phuket the separation between the Geoid (mathematical surface) and gravitational sea level is about 20 m. In other words if you take your Etrex down to the seashore it will tell you are at an elevation of around 20 m ! Try it !

a good start no doubt but it doesn't actually matter whether the land is 'definitely' under or over 80m by a large margin

everything is negotiable except when a decision is made against you no matter what a fleet of surveyors say

[LivinLOS]

Yes but how do you define 80m ?? Having had dealings with the tessabaan on exactly this they lick thier finger and hold it in the air !! For a start they have no datum points, no set places to calibrate from.. as this is down to the meter they had no answer to if 'sea level' meant high tide low tide or what.. Then they arrived with the oldest cheapest 5 or more year old etrex GPS unit that floated 15 or so meters in either direction.. They then sorta looked aound the patong hillsides for other buildings and tried to 'sort of' guess.. We had called the Kathu office out to get more data as the Patong tessabaan was after his envelope.. When the Kathu guy found out the Patong guy had already assessed it, and with the obvious GPS data showing he had no clue, and no way of getting a clue.. His only concern was 'what did the Patong tessabaan say'..

Thats the rigorous process of how they precisely define 80m !!

All you have to do is employ a qualified surveyor, and there are a few around Phuket. The 80 m is measured vertically above Mean Sea Level. The Province has established official bench marks to be used for this very purpose all around the coast of the island about 4 years ago, and each of the approving offices in the local OBoTo's have a copy of the booklet which was produced at that time with very detailed instructions. Do NOT use a hand-held GPS it shows elevations as referred to the mathematical surface of the earth not the gravitational surface which is Mean Sea Level. In Phuket the separation between the Geoid (mathematical surface) and gravitational sea level is about 20 m. In other words if you take your Etrex down to the seashore it will tell you are at an elevation of around 20 m ! Try it !

Where are these 4 fixed datums.. I have asked this to many in the biz and no one has ever known of them.

Thailand does not have differential GPS systems.. so we are looking at a system that cannot guarantee a data point better than 6 - 10m.. The case above I listed was defined as being about 3m above 80m.. How ?? The land was landscaped and a retaining wall created behind it to create level flat land at what the tessabaan said was 79m.. again how does he define it ? IMO he licks his finger and holds it to the wind. And it matters not what any surveyor says, the tessabaan in king in this, his word is law.

I recently purchased a 60csx with the barometric altimeter as well as the GPS one.. So if I have a datum I can zero it in to take out weather pressure differences its about as accurate as (non military) real world will get.

[83110pkt]

quote]

They may be able to sell to an unsuspecting buyer, but the buyer is going to be in trouble later. I know of one case where the purchaser was refused a building permit in Patong for a swimming pool because the house was over 80 m, even though he produced the "approved" building plans for the house. Another case I know of at Surin Beach where the purchaser could not re-sell because the new buyer was more careful.

Good point they could sell to an unsuspecting buyer...I heard recently that they are changing the laws soon and you will be able to build lower than the 80 m. I wanted to buy some land in patong and build my own home because I heard it is cheaper but the land is too high so I am waiting for the law to change!

[thaiwanderer]

they have been 'about to change the law' on this for years

if you buy after any such change in the law the price may be as high as the land

if you buy now you might never be able to officially build

if its spare-ish change might be worth the gamble

[bellachg]

Where are these 4 fixed datums.. I have asked this to many in the biz and no one has ever known of them.

Thailand does not have differential GPS systems.. so we are looking at a system that cannot guarantee a data point better than 6 - 10m.. The case above I listed was defined as being about 3m above 80m.. How ?? The land was landscaped and a retaining wall created behind it to create level flat land at what the tessabaan said was 79m.. again how does he define it ? IMO he licks his finger and holds it to the wind. And it matters not what any surveyor says, the tessabaan in king in this, his word is law.

I recently purchased a 60csx with the barometric altimeter as well as the GPS one.. So if I have a datum I can zero it in to take out weather pressure differences its about as accurate as (non military) real world will get.

The datum is Mean Sea Level. You can look at the tide tables and the particulart height of the tide on the day you want to make the comparison. Maximum tideal difference at Spring tides in Phuket is about 3 m, so Mean Sea Level is about 1.5 m about maximum Spring Low. Ti do it more accurately you can have reference to one of the about 200 bench marks mentioned above which are strung along all the coastal road of the island and around 500 m intervals. Go to the OboTo in your area and look up the one closest to the place which you want to you.

In fact the Environmental Regulations state that NO part of a building, including the roof may be higher than 80 m above Mean Sea Level.

[bellachg]

quote]

They may be able to sell to an unsuspecting buyer, but the buyer is going to be in trouble later. I know of one case where the purchaser was refused a building permit in Patong for a swimming pool because the house was over 80 m, even though he produced the "approved" building plans for the house. Another case I know of at Surin Beach where the purchaser could not re-sell because the new buyer was more careful.

Good point they could sell to an unsuspecting buyer...I heard recently that they are changing the laws soon and you will be able to build lower than the 80 m. I wanted to buy some land in patong and build my own home because I heard it is cheaper but the land is too high so I am waiting for the law to change!

Good luck. You may have to wait a long time. Real Estate salesmen and developers have been saying this for the last 5 years

[thaiwanderer]

you can find out from the land office whether a plot is DEEMED by public record to be above or below 80m (how that was decided and whether it is or is not actually correct is wholly irrelevant)

there is no need for site inspections and arguing the case of how high it is unless land office say its over - you might then get approval BUT are opening yourself for potential problems which you should consider whether you can resolve and keep resolved

Edited May 22, 2009 by thaiwanderer

[Sir Burr]

you can find out from the land office whether a plot is DEEMED by public record to be above or below 80m (how that was decided and whether it is or is not actually correct is wholly irrelevant)

there is no need for site inspections and arguing the case of how high it is unless land office say its over - you might then get approval BUT are opening yourself for potential problems

Land office decisions get over-turned.

Best you check that the land is of suitable height yourself.

[thaiwanderer]

you can find out from the land office whether a plot is DEEMED by public record to be above or below 80m (how that was decided and whether it is or is not actually correct is wholly irrelevant)

there is no need for site inspections and arguing the case of how high it is unless land office say its over - you might then get approval BUT are opening yourself for potential problems

Land office decisions get over-turned.

Best you check that the land is of suitable height yourself.

i was referring to existant land office records not decisions (i accept these themselves are based on previous various decisions and are subject to possible reversal without liability as with anything a government official or department does BUT they are far far more certain than just 'getting the nod' on a plot or having your own independent survey - its independence is its undoing)

[patklang]

Press like this certainly is not a positive for the Phuket market and there have historically been few project defaults in Phuket in the past. This looks to be a developing story as the UK news has given only Joe Cole's side of the story. There needs to be a balance in the sources for the story and certainly a statement from the Phuket group would be helpful.

Paragraphs like that make me lose all faith in journalism in Phuket these days.

Phuket property market and the place as a resort is renown to be a total corrupt shithole including the police,the murders of farang and the bad press.

Idont know one person who would live in Phuket.

[Sir Burr]

I dont know one person who would live in Phuket.

You should get out more.