20,000 Red Shirts Expected At Rally Today

[animatic]

Thailand's TOP forensics expert Khunying Porntip tested the Oct 7th teargas canisters,

and found them deadly and consistent with the trace and wounds inflicted by the police.

Those teargas grenades were never used again.

The police were either improperly trained or malicious in it's use.

The propaganda is not spice it is B.S. to confuse the unsuspecting.

Spice is a healthy argument on topics. This is not the case.

Yes, please give examples of Yellow propagandists.

Would that be anyone not agreeing with red propagandists?

Edited May 13, 2009 by animatic

[justanothercybertosser]

Thailand's TOP forensics expert Khunying Porntip tested the Oct 7th teargas canisters,

and found them deadly and consistent with the trace and wounds inflicted by the police.

Those teargas grenades were never used again.

The police were either improperly trained or malicious in it's use.

The propaganda is not spice it is B.S. to confuse the unsuspecting.

Spice is a healthy argument on topics. This is not the case.

Yes, please give examples of Yellow propagandists.

Would that be anyone not agreeing with red propagandists?

No, that would for example be the people that consistently ignore that there are two conflicting investigation results on the dead of Oct. 7, one by Dr. Pornthip, who is a forensic, but not an explosives expert, and one by a police investigation team, which can be accused of not being impartial, but who have also used explosives experts in their investigation.

[Cayenne]

The same comment would be suitable to the countless posts that describe the PAD as a peaceful movement.

Given the enormous amount of yellow propaganda one has to wade through here (i have never seen you posting such strong comments against the same from yellow), one poster doing Red propaganda here only spices the discussion up a bit. The endless rants against Thaksin do get a bit boring.

Or do you want a mutual appreciation society here?

PAD could be described as a peaceful movement, and so could the original red. PULO can not.

See the difference?

And please name the ones you claim are posting Yellow propaganda. Just so I know where you put the bar.

I believe by Cybertosser's point here is that we can post all the Yellow propaganda we want to and even the blantant lies, as long as we are "polite" like Koo82

[Plus]

a police investigation team, which can be accused of not being impartial, but who have also used explosives experts in their investigation.

As long as police are investigating themselves they can have Pope himself on their team, it won't change the predetermined outcome - police have done nothing wrong.

As far as I remember that "investigation" was ordered by a general who tried to convince the public they'd done nothing wrong when the assault was still going on.

>>>

That's the second excuse for posting lies - first one was "Lying is ok if you are polite". Second - "Lying is ok if you can cite some "experts" name".

Well, this forum is no a sandbox or a courtroom - we generally don't expect posters to lie to prove their points. It's just abuse of our faith.

[hammered]

a police investigation team, which can be accused of not being impartial, but who have also used explosives experts in their investigation.

As long as police are investigating themselves they can have Pope himself on their team, it won't change the predetermined outcome - police have done nothing wrong.

As far as I remember that "investigation" was ordered by a general who tried to convince the public they'd done nothing wrong when the assault was still going on.

>>>

That's the second excuse for posting lies - first one was "Lying is ok if you are polite". Second - "Lying is ok if you can cite some "experts" name".

Well, this forum is no a sandbox or a courtroom - we generally don't expect posters to lie to prove their points. It's just abuse of our faith.

Correct. Forget Thailand. The world over people do not trust police investigating themselves. The US and UK have a history of cover ups etc.

A police investigation of thepolice is always suspect and can never be held up against an outside investigation.If police believe they are innocent they should commision an independent inquiry at their expense and without them selecting the memebers of the team and hand over all the evidence. There in itself is another problem though. The police collect and hold the evidence and hence the veracity of the evidence and the chain of evidence becomes suspect.

[Tafia]

Politicians are crooked and corrupt all over the world why should we expect anything different here.....just look at the UK news about the UK lot creaming the expenses while people are losing jobs and homes...........

[Ricardo]

If Khun Thaksin had not become Prime Minister, I might not have come out to call for democracy. Because I will not know why I must fight when any PM is the same.

Khun Thaksin made me know that if we have the "one person one vote" and "no coup", our lives are better.

Can you confirm please, this is the same Thaksin who said, "democracy is not my aim", when responding to widespread criticism that his government was rolling-back press-freedom and democracy ? Thought so.

Police brought that very teargas to shoot to prove it cannot kill. It did not tear a piece of paper. I saw it on tv.

Funny, I too saw the tests on TV, which conclusively proved that the out-of-date chinese gas-canisters were explosive and dangerous, surely that was why they were then withdrawn ?

Whatever, it was good that the military didn't use the canisters, which the border-police had used on October 7th, or perhaps there might have been more people hurt more-seriously.

[hammered]

If Khun Thaksin had not become Prime Minister, I might not have come out to call for democracy. Because I will not know why I must fight when any PM is the same.

Khun Thaksin made me know that if we have the "one person one vote" and "no coup", our lives are better.

Can you confirm please, this is the same Thaksin who said, "democracy is not my aim", when responding to widespread criticism that his government was rolling-back press-freedom and democracy ? Thought so.

Police brought that very teargas to shoot to prove it cannot kill. It did not tear a piece of paper. I saw it on tv.

Funny, I too saw the tests on TV, which conclusively proved that the out-of-date chinese gas-canisters were explosive and dangerous, surely that was why they were then withdrawn ?

Whatever, it was good that the military didn't use the canisters, which the border-police had used on October 7th, or perhaps there might have been more people hurt more-seriously.

How can you say that? Havent you heard that hundreds got killed and the whole of Bangkok was washed down before camera could get near the scene. Even some wetern academics along with the free lanna and no gays brigade up CM way are making these claims so they must be true. Get with the plot and listern to Jatuporn et al and dont believe anything you see or even dare to ask a question and thinking isnt allowed. You must believe in the one true religion - Red

[animatic]

Thailand's TOP forensics expert Khunying Porntip tested the Oct 7th teargas canisters,

and found them deadly and consistent with the trace and wounds inflicted by the police.

Those teargas grenades were never used again.

The police were either improperly trained or malicious in it's use.

The propaganda is not spice it is B.S. to confuse the unsuspecting.

Spice is a healthy argument on topics. This is not the case.

Yes, please give examples of Yellow propagandists.

Would that be anyone not agreeing with red propagandists?

No, that would for example be the people that consistently ignore that there are two conflicting investigation results on the dead of Oct. 7, one by Dr. Pornthip, who is a forensic, but not an explosives expert, and one by a police investigation team, which can be accused of not being impartial, but who have also used explosives experts in their investigation.

Excuse me, but forensics also includes bombs in their exploded states as part of the pervue.

She is trained in the aftermath of bombs and testing actual components for comparison

is part of the job also. She is western trained in determining evidence chains for use in court.

You need not be a trained bomb builder to compare and judge the similarities between two bomb scenes.

Science could care less about political leanings, it is a factual endeavor, not whimsical charade.

She was made a Kuhnying as a way of giving her more clout

vs the 'predetermined outcomes' of POLICE investigating themselves.

This is why big police forces have "Rat Squads" AKA Internal Affairs Departments.

Cause th fuzz stick together and lie to protect each other.

References for the less informed.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/TypesofF...csCategory.html

And

http://www.ezinearticles.com/?Evaluating-a...e&id=627875

http://www.answers.com/topic/bomb-damage-forensic-assessment

http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/bom...nsic-assessment

http://www.tech-faq.com/forensic-science.shtml

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...=1&SRETRY=0

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/forensic...nstruction.html

Edited May 13, 2009 by animatic

[justanothercybertosser]

Correct. Forget Thailand. The world over people do not trust police investigating themselves. The US and UK have a history of cover ups etc.

A police investigation of thepolice is always suspect and can never be held up against an outside investigation.If police believe they are innocent they should commision an independent inquiry at their expense and without them selecting the memebers of the team and hand over all the evidence. There in itself is another problem though. The police collect and hold the evidence and hence the veracity of the evidence and the chain of evidence becomes suspect.

Given that the overseeing committe Dr. Pornthip worked for is staffed with outspoken Thaksin opponents, and that other irregularities such as the premature removal from the morgue of the victims and their funeral, the investigation result is about as doubtful as the police investigation.

A third investigation is in order, and until this is done, the investigation into the Oct. 7 deaths are incomplete and inconclusive. Two investigation results are contradicting themselves, and that is the only fact we have. Doubting the police investigation results is of course legitimate, but these doubts are not proof of anything.

Constructing proof out of these doubts is nothing but propaganda.

It is rather disgusting to see that only police is accused of corruption and incompetence, while these traits are a fact in the whole of thai society.

In other parts of the world police is not supposed to investigate itself, but in other parts of the world there are independent organisations. Here in Thailand today there are no independent organisations, and the one that "investigated" the Oct. 7 incident is not independent at all, being staffed with supporters of PAD. But these facts are conveniently forgotten by the propagandists. It makes things a bit more complicated than their simplistic view of "good" vs. "evil" in Thailand's political mess.

Unfortunately, what contributes to these simplistic views is that here is also no independent and impartial media that properly investigates what has occurred. We are left with two equally poloarized positions of either side, who spread equally biased misinformation. Many very important details of this and other cases are not part of public knowledge. I can only suggest to interested parties to ask their own questions directly to people involved,, and come to their own conclusions.

[justanothercybertosser]

How can you say that? Havent you heard that hundreds got killed and the whole of Bangkok was washed down before camera could get near the scene. Even some wetern academics along with the free lanna and no gays brigade up CM way are making these claims so they must be true. Get with the plot and listern to Jatuporn et al and dont believe anything you see or even dare to ask a question and thinking isnt allowed. You must believe in the one true religion - Red

It does not help that Jatuporn makes partly outrageous claims in parliament. Nevertheless, I am astonished how easily people believe that this government and military state "the truth", while at the Oct.7 incident the same people straight away assumed that the government at the time has lied.

There are a few very muddy points about the recent military crackdown against the Red Shirts, and several points where government and military have clearly lied, such as about the use of real bullets. There is photographic proof that real bullets were used, contrary the statements of the government and military.

There is not enough footage on the morning attack in Din Daeng to conclusively state that people were or were not killed. There are though witness accounts existing of people who have said that people were killed, such as the man who claimed to have jumped off a truck which had corpses. Also historically, this would not be so unbeliavable, given that such things have happened already. The latest such incident was May '02, and i would be very interested who the story about the containers recently found develops further, and why there is so much resistence of the authorities to further investigate this. And the lack of the media reporting such a potentially explosive story.

People here so easily dismiss every single claim and witness account that goes against their views, belittle these people, use character assasination, and fail to question the side they support (which counts for both polarized positions). This behavior looks to me more ideologically based than factual. Hence - propaganda.

I would suggest to keep an open mind, and not come to premature conclusions without enough evidence of either side of the argument. Just because the majority of serial posters here support yellow over red, and let loose a barrage of posts supporting their views, does not mean that they are factually right.

[TAWP]

Long posts to hide the fact that Koo82 lied about the, on the tv-news, visual demonstrations as was part of the investigation.

If you don't believe anyone else you can always believe your eyes, in this case, no?

[Plus]

When Pornthip's Forensic Science institute gave its conclusions that was basically the end of it as they were in line with what people saw with their won eyes (or on TV).

Then the police prodiced their own sham investigation that exonerated them and failed to produce any credible alternative explanation, and suddenly it is used as a reason to discredit Pornthip and call for a third body.

Duh.

This kind of machinantions happen here, on TV all the time, and involve the same type of posters.

When facing inconvenient truth they create a totally ridiculous diversion, demand legitimacy on the grounds of "freedom of opinion", then scream that acceptance of truth must be suspended because of ongoing inconclusive arguments over their fake arguments.

[sriracha john]

Correct. Forget Thailand. The world over people do not trust police investigating themselves. The US and UK have a history of cover ups etc.

A police investigation of thepolice is always suspect and can never be held up against an outside investigation.If police believe they are innocent they should commision an independent inquiry at their expense and without them selecting the memebers of the team and hand over all the evidence. There in itself is another problem though. The police collect and hold the evidence and hence the veracity of the evidence and the chain of evidence becomes suspect.

Given that the overseeing committe Dr. Pornthip worked for is staffed with outspoken Thaksin opponents, and that other irregularities such as the premature removal from the morgue of the victims and their funeral

Please provide source of this previously undocumented information please.

[sriracha john]

When Pornthip's Forensic Science institute gave its conclusions that was basically the end of it as they were in line with what people saw with their won eyes (or on TV).

Then the police prodiced their own sham investigation that exonerated them and failed to produce any credible alternative explanation, and suddenly it is used as a reason to discredit Pornthip and call for a third body.

Duh.

This kind of machinantions happen here, on TV all the time, and involve the same type of posters.

When facing inconvenient truth they create a totally ridiculous diversion, demand legitimacy on the grounds of "freedom of opinion", then scream that acceptance of truth must be suspended because of ongoing inconclusive arguments over their fake arguments.

It's a revolving door with these posters and is most likely why the same discussions seem to be cyclically recycled month after month with a fresh batch... over topics settled weeks, months, or even years ago after exhaustive discussion.

[animatic]

Correct. Forget Thailand. The world over people do not trust police investigating themselves. The US and UK have a history of cover ups etc.

A police investigation of thepolice is always suspect and can never be held up against an outside investigation.If police believe they are innocent they should commision an independent inquiry at their expense and without them selecting the memebers of the team and hand over all the evidence. There in itself is another problem though. The police collect and hold the evidence and hence the veracity of the evidence and the chain of evidence becomes suspect.

Given that the overseeing committee Dr. Pornthip worked for is staffed with outspoken Thaksin opponents,

and that other irregularities such as the premature removal from the morgue of the victims and their funeral

Please provide source of this previously undocumented information please.

She did her work on her own with her own institutes staff,

and then HER EXISTING DATA was brought before a committee.

The committee in question were not forensic experts.

Kuhnyings Porntip and Jaruvan are known as two of the LEAST corrupted individuals

in ALL of Thailand which is why both were given Khunyigg status,

to make it harder to libel and dispute them.

If samples were taken and properly supervised autopsies performed,

then the info needed is already in the records. No doubt there were

several 'interested partys' champing at the bit to get the bodies

and evidence out over her hands ASAP.

Smart, dependable and HONEST, is not lovable in many quarters in LOS

[hammered]

How can you say that? Havent you heard that hundreds got killed and the whole of Bangkok was washed down before camera could get near the scene. Even some wetern academics along with the free lanna and no gays brigade up CM way are making these claims so they must be true. Get with the plot and listern to Jatuporn et al and dont believe anything you see or even dare to ask a question and thinking isnt allowed. You must believe in the one true religion - Red

It does not help that Jatuporn makes partly outrageous claims in parliament. Nevertheless, I am astonished how easily people believe that this government and military state "the truth", while at the Oct.7 incident the same people straight away assumed that the government at the time has lied.

There are a few very muddy points about the recent military crackdown against the Red Shirts, and several points where government and military have clearly lied, such as about the use of real bullets. There is photographic proof that real bullets were used, contrary the statements of the government and military.

There is not enough footage on the morning attack in Din Daeng to conclusively state that people were or were not killed. There are though witness accounts existing of people who have said that people were killed, such as the man who claimed to have jumped off a truck which had corpses. Also historically, this would not be so unbeliavable, given that such things have happened already. The latest such incident was May '02, and i would be very interested who the story about the containers recently found develops further, and why there is so much resistence of the authorities to further investigate this. And the lack of the media reporting such a potentially explosive story.

People here so easily dismiss every single claim and witness account that goes against their views, belittle these people, use character assasination, and fail to question the side they support (which counts for both polarized positions). This behavior looks to me more ideologically based than factual. Hence - propaganda.

I would suggest to keep an open mind, and not come to premature conclusions without enough evidence of either side of the argument. Just because the majority of serial posters here support yellow over red, and let loose a barrage of posts supporting their views, does not mean that they are factually right.

Im not saying the government/military arent lying. I choose to ridicule the most ridiculous though. Claims need to be at least close to what is seen and supported. The government line has in general more evidence and video to suggest it is closer to "the truth" although I have no doubt there are a few porkies embedded in it, and a few things that will never come out.

Everything is propoganda. There is no "truth" as what happens in any situation is histroy as soon as it is over and then relies on description or evidence that is never ever complete. Any two people see something differently. More and more people in Thailand are becoming propogandized every day meaning whichever side directly propogandizes them rather than people just make decisions based on the bias they have. Nobody is neutral. However, within that paradigm history is written and becomes "truth" and is accepted by most and over time becomes the main if not only record.

What is discussed here or any of the blogs or other forum is just debate at a ralatively meaningless level and doesnt really need to be taken seriously. My own opinion is that there has not been one single piece of decent analysis of the situation in Thailand. However, that is not surprising considering everyone in the country is bias, the academic arena that covers the area is small and generally low quality, journalists arent really concerned about Thailand as it is a small relatively insignifcant country and in a world with greater events happening etc

[justanothercybertosser]

Long posts to hide the fact that Koo82 lied about the, on the tv-news, visual demonstrations as was part of the investigation.

If you don't believe anyone else you can always believe your eyes, in this case, no?

I have never said that Koo82 was impartial. I have stated that Koo82 was spreading red propaganda. What i have said as well is that the yellow side here gets an almost free reign to spread yellow propaganda, such as the completely unsubstantiated claims to call the PAD a non-violent movement. At least Koo82 is polite while doing this, while many yellow propagandists tend to flame, belittle and mob their opponents. That is a very disgusting behavior.

It is a blatant lie as well to label the PAD a non-violent movement, given the enormous amount of footage that shows PAD members using guns, beating people up (one man was beaten to death). It does not matter that some here claim that this may have been in defense (which it mostly was not). What matters is that as soon as you take a gun in your hand, you are not non-violent anymore, by definition. But definitions seem not to count anymore in this discussion.

To be fair, i do not claim that the Red Shirts are non-violent. There is enough footage that proves otherwise. What i say that i do prefer the politics of Red over the politics of Yellow (with the exception of Thaksin, who i do not trust. But i do respect that people support him, even if i do not), but i do not like either sides protest strategies. I liked the protest strategies of Red from the beginning of this year up to when they decided to call their "D-Day", which was a major part of leading to the Songkran riots. But i am not as simple minded to dismiss the government's strategies, such as the decision to use the Blue Shirts, and see the government as an equal factor for the escalation.

I hope though that the Reds will have learned from the mistakes before and during the Songkran Riots, and return to a more ordered protest strategy.

[justanothercybertosser]

Im not saying the government/military arent lying. I choose to ridicule the most ridiculous though. Claims need to be at least close to what is seen and supported. The government line has in general more evidence and video to suggest it is closer to "the truth" although I have no doubt there are a few porkies embedded in it, and a few things that will never come out.

And the government's porkies are about as ridiculous. May i mention the claims that Blue Shirts were just "ordinary citicens" that support the government, or that during the crackdown only fake bullets were used, even though there have been footage of bullet holes and soldiers loading full metal jacket bullets into their magazines during their assaults?

So, please, to be evenhanded and as unbiased, this should be ridiculed as well, in the same fashion, and not just swiped under the table.

[justanothercybertosser]

Please provide source of this previously undocumented information please.

You do not call a funeral after 6 days, with the corpse removed from the morgue after 2 days (if my memory is correct), premature in such an important and highly politicized case?

Pleeaase...

As to documentation, and lack of proper investigative journalism in Thailand - not just i accuse the Thai media of being biased and incompetent - more than a few international bodies have made the exact same accusations. I believe i have read some very strong statements you even may have made about misreporting in the media here, unless it is about the political mess, where you cheer every article that supports your bias without questioning.

Edited May 13, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[hammered]

Im not saying the government/military arent lying. I choose to ridicule the most ridiculous though. Claims need to be at least close to what is seen and supported. The government line has in general more evidence and video to suggest it is closer to "the truth" although I have no doubt there are a few porkies embedded in it, and a few things that will never come out.

And the government's porkies are about as ridiculous. May i mention the claims that Blue Shirts were just "ordinary citicens" that support the government, or that during the crackdown only fake bullets were used, even though there have been footage of bullet holes and soldiers loading full metal jacket bullets into their magazines during their assaults?

So, please, to be evenhanded and as unbiased, this should be ridiculed as well, in the same fashion, and not just swiped under the table.

You'd have to be delusional to believe real bullets werent used and I dont doubt the blue shrts in Pattaya werent Newin's boys and to say otherwise is just lunacy. Stupid thing is if they wanted ordinary people in Chonburi to oppose the red shirts all they had to do was ask the day before. There are many thousands who would have responded. Then again that would have been provocation.

My outlook is entirely negative right now. It looks like the loons are in complete control of every part of the asylum and voices of reason just arent going to be given a chance. Just waiting for the parliamentary reconcilliation committee to fall apart or the next lot of streetmobs to get out of control or the promised urban warfare to start. Too many self important big men with too big face to lose.

[justanothercybertosser]

You'd have to be delusional to believe real bullets werent used and I dont doubt the blue shrts in Pattaya werent Newin's boys and to say otherwise is just lunacy. Stupid thing is if they wanted ordinary people in Chonburi to oppose the red shirts all they had to do was ask the day before. There are many thousands who would have responded. Then again that would have been provocation.

My outlook is entirely negative right now. It looks like the loons are in complete control of every part of the asylum and voices of reason just arent going to be given a chance. Just waiting for the parliamentary reconcilliation committee to fall apart or the next lot of streetmobs to get out of control or the promised urban warfare to start. Too many self important big men with too big face to lose.

That is a statement i can agree with wholeheartedly.

Nevertheless, it very much depends on the future strategies of the different sides.

The government has already announced that they would use "citizens" in the protection of the next ASEAN summit (if it actually happens, as several nations have not yet confirmed their participation). That means that they have not accepted their inexcusable mistakes, and will follow the same strategies.

Regardless of Jaturporn's ridiculous claims, we will have to wait and see what the actual protest strategies of the Red Shirts will be, and if they have learned from their mistakes.

PAD is going to decide if they form a political party (which, even though i despise their politics, is a step in the right direction which they should have done before the government house occupation). Also Sondhi L. has hinted at a possible collaboration in the future between Red and Yellow.

Basically, we can expect things to continue moving along.

[sriracha john]

Please provide source of this previously undocumented information please.

You do not call a funeral after 6 days, with the corpse removed from the morgue after 2 days (if my memory is correct), premature in such an important and highly politicized case?

Pleeaase...

As to documentation, and lack of proper investigative journalism in Thailand

< snipped for brevity >

So.. no documentation.

ok.

That's straight, anyway.

[Koo82]

They [added: chinese teargas grenades] contain RDX.

How do you know the Police used Chinese tear gas? Do you believe PAD had a lot of bombs? Found in Government House. One left over exploded when Abhisit and his people had a meeting. When they had weapons and bombs, do you think they did not bring to Parliament House on 7th Oct?

Tear gas is standard method in many countries to deal with protesters. Surprisingly only in Thailand, tear gas caused limbs losing and death.

Was it the reason they set up the blues at Pattaya to attack the reds? Because tear gas does not work, they must have the blues. Do you know the blues violated law? Law allows citizens to protest as long as they don't have weapons.

[hammered]

You'd have to be delusional to believe real bullets werent used and I dont doubt the blue shrts in Pattaya werent Newin's boys and to say otherwise is just lunacy. Stupid thing is if they wanted ordinary people in Chonburi to oppose the red shirts all they had to do was ask the day before. There are many thousands who would have responded. Then again that would have been provocation.

My outlook is entirely negative right now. It looks like the loons are in complete control of every part of the asylum and voices of reason just arent going to be given a chance. Just waiting for the parliamentary reconcilliation committee to fall apart or the next lot of streetmobs to get out of control or the promised urban warfare to start. Too many self important big men with too big face to lose.

That is a statement i can agree with wholeheartedly.

Nevertheless, it very much depends on the future strategies of the different sides.

The government has already announced that they would use "citizens" in the protection of the next ASEAN summit (if it actually happens, as several nations have not yet confirmed their participation). That means that they have not accepted their inexcusable mistakes, and will follow the same strategies.

Regardless of Jaturporn's ridiculous claims, we will have to wait and see what the actual protest strategies of the Red Shirts will be, and if they have learned from their mistakes.

PAD is going to decide if they form a political party (which, even though i despise their politics, is a step in the right direction which they should have done before the government house occupation). Also Sondhi L. has hinted at a possible collaboration in the future between Red and Yellow.

Basically, we can expect things to continue moving along.

Red and yellow cooperating is not as delusional as it sounds but it would require a few precursors. The yellows would have to be devoid of their royalist extreme which maybe has started. They would then be a middle class group. The reds would have to be devoid of Thaksin. That could be harder. Then they would be a pro-demcracy and rural supporting group. Middle class and pro-demcracy are logical allies in demcoratic struggle at this historical point. Those that represent large constituencies (Yellow, Reds, PTP, Dems, Newin) also have to at some point come to a truce. Democracies always result in a trade off between those that control economic activity and the majority. This is confued a bit in Thailand by the formation of a new working class that due to the foibles of the voting system and the feudal tying of people to the land are not represented democratically but watered down across constituencies and with MPs who neither know their needs or cares. This is group that also needs to be included in developments but likely wont creating a further potential problem in the not too distant future.

Yellow party formation is a big issue that they are divided on.

ASEAN demos and governments respsonses in Phuket is probably all talk. It will be hard to get a large red demo down there. In the south the reds would also be under threat of attack whatever the government said. They are hated. Now a yellow demo.......

[justanothercybertosser]

Red and yellow cooperating is not as delusional as it sounds but it would require a few precursors. The yellows would have to be devoid of their royalist extreme which maybe has started. They would then be a middle class group. The reds would have to be devoid of Thaksin. That could be harder.

I would not even go so far that Red would have to be completely devoid of Thaksin. They would have to tone it down though. Also the royalist extremists in Yellow would have to tone it down. Red would have to declare loyalty to the monarchy (not difficult), and Yellow would have to declare to keep the one man one vote principle (not too difficult either as they have always left that option open). I do not see them becoming one group though, but two distinct groups cooperating separately against a common adversary. That there is a common adversary has been made rather clear during Sondhi's last press conference, and also the latest public statements of both sides have been unusually soft on each other.

In politics there are no friends forever, and no enemies forever either...

[Koo82]

PAD could be described as a peaceful movement, and so could the original red. PULO can not.

See the difference?

And please name the ones you claim are posting Yellow propaganda. Just so I know where you put the bar.

Is using a gun to shoot police peaceful? PAD was seen having guns many times.

[hammered]

Red and yellow cooperating is not as delusional as it sounds but it would require a few precursors. The yellows would have to be devoid of their royalist extreme which maybe has started. They would then be a middle class group. The reds would have to be devoid of Thaksin. That could be harder.

I would not even go so far that Red would have to be completely devoid of Thaksin. They would have to tone it down though. Also the royalist extremists in Yellow would have to tone it down. Red would have to declare loyalty to the monarchy (not difficult), and Yellow would have to declare to keep the one man one vote principle (not too difficult either as they have always left that option open). I do not see them becoming one group though, but two distinct groups cooperating separately against a common adversary. That there is a common adversary has been made rather clear during Sondhi's last press conference, and also the latest public statements of both sides have been unusually soft on each other.

In politics there are no friends forever, and no enemies forever either...

And those on both sides with business interests cannot enjoy seeing the game hurting them all

I agree with your Sonthi comment. He is the most interesting person to watch the speeches of right now. I also agree they will not combine. They are both already alliances of disparate groups that are not always easy to hold together

Not sure of the Thaksin being toned down only. Maybe toned down and a real commitment not to return to politics.

The move from feudal to post feudal takes a more logical twist if thsi were to happen. The divide between poor and middle class that has been manipulated has always guaranteed feudal conituity to some degree imho. If this happens we now move away from power elites playing who gets to keep/take over being chief exploiters and move to an arena where people will have more of a say on the system and the level of balance between the economic classes and the poorer classes. The working class still need to be factored in imho.

Lots of ifs and lots of potential for self important big faced men to interfere. Hypothetically though it is an interesting possibility.

[Koo82]

As far as I remember that "investigation" was ordered by a general who tried to convince the public they'd done nothing wrong when the assault was still going on.

Abhisit announced on tv a few hours after the soldiers shot at Din Daeng that there was no death caused by soldiers.

No investigation at that time. Announced by someone who was not on the spot. No interview of any reds. No any red tv or radio. And Pro-yellows said "Abhisit has done a great job to bring back order".

[Koo82]

Can you confirm please, this is the same Thaksin who said, "democracy is not my aim", when responding to widespread criticism that his government was rolling-back press-freedom and democracy ? Thought so.

Did he mean that his aim is to bring farmers and the poor to better education and better lives? So democracy is not his aim.