Air France Plane Drops Off Radar Over Atlantic

[Scott]

My thoughts are with the family and friends. It's a terrible ordeal for them.

This is an international event and may well be related to Thailand. That remains to be seen.

[jackdanielsesq]

To those with malice aforethought - any aircraft that goes down is of concern to most of us who live on this planet.

Any craft that has latent or patent defects needs to be removed - no different from poisonous medicines.

If Boeing produced junk they would have been removed after the first wrongful death lawsuit.

The 747 was on cargo junkets for eons before it was people-type certified.

The A380 is an egomaniacs twist, the SUV of air travel, watch the airline industry abandon it in droves after the first wreck.

There is no right or wrong in this situation - it is a tragic turn of human events - keep politics out of it.

For those families the waiting will never end.

God Bless.

BR>Jack

[Pierrot]

To those with malice aforethought - any aircraft that goes down is of concern to most of us who live on this planet.

Any craft that has latent or patent defects needs to be removed - no different from poisonous medicines.

If Boeing produced junk they would have been removed after the first wrongful death lawsuit.

The 747 was on cargo junkets for eons before it was people-type certified.

The A380 is an egomaniacs twist, the SUV of air travel, watch the airline industry abandon it in droves after the first wreck.

There is no right or wrong in this situation - it is a tragic turn of human events - keep politics out of it.

For those families the waiting will never end.

God Bless.

BR>Jack

We are talking about a tragedy here.

Do you mind keeping your politically motivated comments for an other thread?

Edited June 2, 2009 by Pierrot

[meom]

Any craft that has latent or patent defects needs to be removed - no different from poisonous medicines.

At least all A330's should be grounded until further investigation but I don't see that happen yet.

[Graphics]

The airbus was hit by a lightening, the news says.

What a sad situation... all condolences to families members of those on board.

[jackdanielsesq]

I used to be a flyboy, now spend my time in the water - safer - but, having said that, my buddies all maintain that most airliners are equipped to survive any lightning strikes, they also have a RAM system on board, an external prop/alternator that will power up the front end of the plane - a sort of emergency get home thingy - so that they can make land. I dont know of any data that exists that shows such strikes, but the fact that it simply went boom does not indicate a natural strike - there is always time for a mayday.

I have watched the National Geographic boys, amongst others, who hi-tail it off into live freaking hurricanes, to observe everything that can possibly happen to a plane, plus run all their data loggers, etc - thats pushing it - yet they all emerge OK. Now thats insane. As the man said - there is normally a sequence of catastrophic events that leads to such a disaster as this - it is never just one particular instance. Were lightning the root cause, nobody would fly, period.

I also somehow doubt the French will pull their own planes, they will rather wait until the collateral damage is at critical mass, then maybe. By which time it will be too late for all. It might not be significant - but that part of the southern Atlantic is known as the Graveyard - it is as about as far removed as can be.

BR>Jack

BTW _ Since that Emirates event, I have not flown any Airbus in 24 months.

[Crossy]

Looks like a potential crash site has been located

DEBRIS floating on the Atlantic Ocean in the area where a missing Air France passenger jet is suspected of crashing has been sighted by crew on a French freighter, Brazilian media has reported.

The sighting by the crew on the Douce France is said to be in the same area off the coast of Senegal where a Brazil TAM airline pilot spotted what was thought to be a burning piece of wreckage.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,2...5005961,00.html

EDIT On the 'Not Thailand related' front, Thaivisa has allowed in the past, and will continue to allow major stories of this type to remain active.

[tijnebijn]

Just had an odd thought , perhaps it disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle ......

Something mysterious like this could very well be .

Not knowing where the excact location of the Bermuda is , is it possible ?

Hope there will be some survivors ,if they ever find them ....RIP .

Edited June 2, 2009 by tijnebijn

[meom]

I used to be a flyboy, now spend my time in the water - safer - but, having said that, my buddies all maintain that most airliners are equipped to survive any lightning strikes, they also have a RAM system on board, an external prop/alternator that will power up the front end of the plane - a sort of emergency get home thingy - so that they can make land. I dont know of any data that exists that shows such strikes, but the fact that it simply went boom does not indicate a natural strike - there is always time for a mayday.

One theory (and it's only a theory) posted below:

"Hans Weber, head of the Tecop aviation consulting firm in San Diego, offered a hypothesis about the episode, based on his knowledge of severe losses of altitude by two Qantas jets last year.

The new Airbus 330 was a “fly-by-wire” plane, in which signals to move the flaps are sent through electric wires to small motors in the wings rather than through cables or hydraulic tubing. Fly-by-wire systems can automatically conduct maneuvers to prevent an impending crash, but some Airbus jets will not allow a pilot to override the self-protection mechanism.

On both Qantas flights, the planes’ inertia sensors sent faulty information into the flight computers, making them take emergency measures to correct problems that did not exist, sending the planes into sudden dives.

If the inertia sensor told a computer that a plane was stalling, forcing it to drop the nose and dive to pick up airspeed, and there was simultaneously a severe downdraft in the storm turbulence, “that would be hard to recover from,” Mr. Weber said"

[bravingbangkok]

Any craft that has latent or patent defects needs to be removed - no different from poisonous medicines.

At least all A330's should be grounded until further investigation but I don't see that happen yet.

So what defect was this be ?

It just isn't going to happen. Although quite rightly, as another TV member stated it is indeed pointless to speculate, I however still feel that there was a sudden decompression and structural failure/damage which resulted in sudden loss of control and subsequently the plane broke up and the segments nose dived into the Ocean.

The thing is this could be totally wrong as nobody knows how sudden this happened, they may have lost radio contact and then flown on for 30mins which would counter my theory.

Commercial pilots have told Brazilian authorities that they saw scattered orange marks on the Ocean.

[jackdanielsesq]

No - not that it makes any difference, the results are the same - not even the same ocean.

As above, there will be a huge amount of speculation - possibly no closure ever.

I have to go with the 'sequence of catastrophic events' as I mentioned earlier - simply watching the NTSB reconstruct a sunken, wrecked Boeing over many years, to determine the cause, has to be the primary suspect.

Sabotage & fruitcakes normally plays to the media - viz Lockerbie.

Beware the government/manufacturer cover-up now.

BR>Jack

Not knowing where the excact location of the Bermuda is , is it possible ?

[bravingbangkok]

I used to be a flyboy, now spend my time in the water - safer - but, having said that, my buddies all maintain that most airliners are equipped to survive any lightning strikes, they also have a RAM system on board, an external prop/alternator that will power up the front end of the plane - a sort of emergency get home thingy - so that they can make land. I dont know of any data that exists that shows such strikes, but the fact that it simply went boom does not indicate a natural strike - there is always time for a mayday.

One theory (and it's only a theory) posted below:

"Hans Weber, head of the Tecop aviation consulting firm in San Diego, offered a hypothesis about the episode, based on his knowledge of severe losses of altitude by two Qantas jets last year.

The new Airbus 330 was a "fly-by-wire" plane, in which signals to move the flaps are sent through electric wires to small motors in the wings rather than through cables or hydraulic tubing. Fly-by-wire systems can automatically conduct maneuvers to prevent an impending crash, but some Airbus jets will not allow a pilot to override the self-protection mechanism.

On both Qantas flights, the planes' inertia sensors sent faulty information into the flight computers, making them take emergency measures to correct problems that did not exist, sending the planes into sudden dives.

If the inertia sensor told a computer that a plane was stalling, forcing it to drop the nose and dive to pick up airspeed, and there was simultaneously a severe downdraft in the storm turbulence, "that would be hard to recover from," Mr. Weber said"

Why no mayday then ? You have to look back to the jack screw in the Air Alaska case, that plane dived 35 000 feet and the pilots issued a mayday. I think this was a sudden totally break up of the plane or loss of electronics, no radio, flew on and then something else happened.

[cuddleypete]

Very sad condolences to families and to the crews families on board

[jackdanielsesq]

The QANTAS Airbus fiasco is the event I referred to in my first salvo - ergo the the 'gut feel' that there are issues with the craft as a whole - which slots in better with 'catastrophic sequence' again.

I sent some exotic autos to Tokyo from LAX via Juno, Alaska on JAL some years back.

Because of volcanic soot ingestion they lost all four turbines, but luckily recovered just inches off the ground.

They replaced all four and went on to Japan. I believe they got a free pass on the annual medicals for a while.

Even though it was a Jumbo heavy and it dropped 28,000 ft there was zip wrong with it structurally.

Paradoxically I had managed to insure them via Lloyds of London only hours earlier.

There was no damage. FedEx did a great job.

BR>Jack

[bravingbangkok]

The QANTAS Airbus fiasco is the event I referred to in my first salvo - ergo the the 'gut feel' that there are issues with the craft as a whole - which slots in better with 'catastrophic sequence' again.

I sent some exotic autos to Tokyo from LAX via Juno, Alaska on JAL some years back.

Because of volcanic soot ingestion they lost all four turbines, but luckily recovered just inches off the ground.

They replaced all four and went on to Japan. I believe they got a free pass on the annual medicals for a while.

Even though it was a Jumbo heavy and it dropped 28,000 ft there was zip wrong with it structurally.

Paradoxically I had managed to insure them via Lloyds of London only hours earlier.

There was no damage. FedEx did a great job.

BR>Jack

Yes a similar thing happened with a BA flying over Indonesia, it lost all four engines but regained them when they got to a lower altitude.

[bravingbangkok]

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Passengers_on_...ane_disappeared

If this turns out to be true, it might not have been sudden.

[Datsun240Z]

The messages included "I love you" and "I'm afraid. Mmmm....

It could be hijack, it could be a storm. But since it was allready hours in the air, it should be at cruising altitude, above the storms and cloud decks. Lightning does not bring a plane down, and turbulence must be very very heavy, before a plane starts breaking apart. NASA conducted some test flights with Boeings trough hurricanes and tornados and lightning storms, they came out in one piece. Although boeing stil uses cables trough the plane for basic control functions for the pilots, Airbus does not have something like that. If the computers fail, the plane fails.... Technology is nice, but sometimes to much is dangerous, you can't rely 100% on computers.

If the plane was in a storm, pilots should have pulled it up, and get out of it. But if sytems fail..they cannot. I prefer pilots who have flown in the army before the go on commercial liners, they make live treathining decissions better.

We may know the real cause, sadly after investigation. Every crash is knew knowlegde for more safety sadly.

[meom]

Storms in that area are as high as 50 thousand feet and the plane can't go above that.

[Mosha]

Also photographs taken in orbit have shown lightning striking up from the clouds. National Geographic did an episode on Super Lightning, said to have reversed polarity.

[Pierrot]

...

Edited June 2, 2009 by Pierrot

[Datsun240Z]

41.000 feet is the A330's maxium, cruising altitude. But it can go higher as up to 70.000. Anyhow, it's likely to have a storm at this altitude. Anyhow weather stations and sattelite images, can show if there was a storm.

Here a video of TAM flight in thunderstorm:

Edited June 2, 2009 by Datsun240Z

[jackdanielsesq]

What are you talking about man?

This might be too technical for you, but there is not one iota of any political mumbo-jumbo in here.

Not from anyone. .

A little temperance might be the order of the day, not castigation.

Read the entire piece, please.

BR>Jack

BTW - another is one word.

Do you mind keeping your politically motivated comments for an other thread?

[Guest Reimar]

Foxnews reported that the Airforce has found wrack part 400 miles of the cost.

The latest report on Foxnews Website could be read here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524263,00.html

On report now, the news tell that an Airforce Pilot has captured electronic signals from the sea app. 400 miles north of the brazilian coast. An Rescue Vessel is on it's way and will be at that area shortly.

[jackdanielsesq]

Hoo Boy - damage control has just been set in motion!!

What has the defense minister got to do with a civil aviation issue?

One wonders why there are no EPIRB activation codes received - they go off immediately there is water activation and are

received by every plane & satellite?

BR>Jack

French Defence Minister Herve Morin has stressed there is still "no evidence whatsoever" as to the cause of the plane's loss

"We cannot, by definition, exclude a terrorist attack, because terrorism is the main threat for all Western democracies," he added.

[sunsamourai]

The flight captain had a record of 11,000 flight hours and had already flown 1,700 hours on Airbus A330/A340s.

Of the two first officers, one had flown 3,000 flight hours (800 of which on the Airbus A330/A340) and the other 6,600 (2,600 on the Airbus A330/A340).

No wonder the plane crashed : they should let the pilots rest sometimes !

Isn't the supposed "crash area" known as the "Bermuda triangle" ?

[noahvail]

No wonder the plane crashed : they should let the pilots rest sometimes !

Isn't the supposed "crash area" known as the "Bermuda triangle" ?

The triangle has had many definitions over the years, spanning vast distances to support one theory or another. My understanding is that many ships were lost in a roughly-triangular shaped area of the seas and oceans thereabouts back in the 1600s and early 1700s due to violent storms. It really has no modern significance, despite the many advocates of a multitude of often-conflicting theories.

Speculation...as well as a not very good time for attempts at humour.

[Carmine6]

No wonder the plane crashed : they should let the pilots rest sometimes !

Isn't the supposed "crash area" known as the "Bermuda triangle" ?

The triangle has had many definitions over the years, spanning vast distances to support one theory or another. My understanding is that many ships were lost in a roughly-triangular shaped area of the seas and oceans thereabouts back in the 1600s and early 1700s due to violent storms. It really has no modern significance, despite the many advocates of a multitude of often-conflicting theories.

Speculation...as well as a not very good time for attempts at humour.

The Bermuda triangle extends out from Florida and the Southeastern part of the US. It extends out to Bermuda and down to Puerto Rico. This plane was nowhere near that area. It was closer to Africa than North America.

[Mosha]

A bit of a task to get the black boxes, though not impossibble. The water is at least 12000' there where wreckage has been found.

[jackdanielsesq]

Latest Updates:

Bomb threat received several days prior to - the same flight to Paris, but which landed safely.

Still much discussion over it being known fact that there are frequent violent storms in that area - why then deliberately fly that route? Seems like an absurd argument! Or stupidity. Or more damage control, as all the lawyers circle. The QANTAS flight mishap in OZ is front & centre again, as that flight nosedived without provocation. This is a known, documented problem with Airbus. There was apparent outside electrical interference - the point being that the autopilot tripped up whilst in cruise mode. Flight 447 would have been in a similar cruise mode.

Remember - the Airbus does not have a mechanical redundancy built in - once the electronics or fly-by-wire go AWOL, its game over. One must further presume that Airbus did have electronic redundancy, but that did not work for whatever reasons.

We were discussing this very same redundancy vis-a-vis pleasure boat controls on another forum, where an entire family was killed on a Sunday pleasure cruise, simply because the captain entrusted the safety of his ship & passengers to a electronic autopilot, which went berserk, and turned the pleasure craft into an on coming tanker. The captain was, along with everyone, standing on the bow, waving at the tanker, with nobody minding the helm. Possible extraneous electrical interference from said tanker as cause. Again, another very tragic result, caused by a series of avoidable blunders.

We all felt very strongly, that there is no substitute for manual/human control of any craft, and that there is ultimately only one pilot in control - the Captain.

BR>Jack

[churchill]

AP: French investigator unsure whether chief pilot was at controls when Air France jet went down