Central May Be About To Collapse

[tropo]

If you can find some cracks, I'm sure some people (engineers) will take this forums general paranoia to another level. There's people so spooked on this forum that they are won't even go into the building...now that's some pretty serious paranoia. I'm surprised these people can even make the flight over to Thailand.

In every RC constructed building in the world you will find cracks, go and have a look in your own condo, or house, you will find "cracks" everywhere. The trick is understanding which cracks will compromise the integrity of the structure.

You mention airplanes, if people only knew how many cracks an average jet liner has in it, but these are expected, designed for, and have very strigent criteria applied to them. ie a part must be replaced when crack reaches "X" size or they are "stop drilled" to stop them progressing.

My intent here is not to raise to level of paranoia, but to state a fact, most fabricated/constructued items things have cracks in them.......but not all cracks will compromise the integrity of a structure.

You don't have to convince me. I'm calling BS on this imminent callapse theory. I enjoy shopping and eating in the new mall on an almost daily basis.

[tropo]

to this subject i can only say.

we are in thailand.

we are dealing with engeniers building something that they might not know much of.

and also the less concret used from the workers, means more money for them to use.

see the roads. every few meters there is a big hole in the street, meaning on that part of the road they have used less concret that they supposed have done.

but as i said we are in thailand.

AMAZING THAILAND

You seem quick to slag building construction in Thailand, but...

How many people have died in building collapses in Thailand?

And...

Out of all those deaths, how many were in brand new shopping centres?

And...

How many shopping centres have collapsed in Thailand so far?

I'm sure Central will outlive most of us on this forum. Perhaps not Britney, but definitely the old retired folks.

[tropo]

I don't think its a case of (Thai's can't do anything right) Any place that is built on sand in any part of the world is asking for future problems.

This is absolute nonsense.

No one builds on sand, they send piles down to bedrock below the water table.

Google Surfers Paradise on the Gold Coast of Australia. They're building higher and higher every year. They even have the world's tallest residential tower there now. Surfers Paradise is basically a sand dune, but the buildings are on bedrock....and there are hundreds of well constructed high rise buildings there.

Edited June 7, 2009 by tropo

[Tokay]

I went into the garage a few hours ago to have a look for myself. They have started to add those supports all over the garage and painting them white. Looks like they will end up on every support column in the place.

[PattayaParent]

I don't think its a case of (Thai's can't do anything right) Any place that is built on sand in any part of the world is asking for future problems.

This is absolute nonsense.

No one builds on sand, they send piles down to bedrock below the water table.

Google Surfers Paradise on the Gold Coast of Australia. They're building higher and higher every year. They even have the world's tallest residential tower there now. Surfers Paradise is basically a sand dune, but the buildings are on bedrock....and there are hundreds of well constructed high rise buildings there.

The tallest building in the world is built in the Dubai desert.

[Soutpeel]

Actually Thai engineers are quite well educated and know their trade.

Going to disagree on this one, and generalise.... Well educated with losts of pieces of paper...yes

knowing their trade or disipline..... very suspect, having a piece of paper from a top university generally means jack, Not just singling out Thai engineers either....Europe and US seem to producing their fair share of educated idiots as well...

[MeetJohnDoe]

Teheran's Mehrabad Airport was supervised by consultant Brian Colquhoun...Then came the heavy winter snowfall - and the whole dam_n thing collapsed.

Thanks for the head up, I will avoid Central every time when its snowing

[MeetJohnDoe]

to this subject i can only say.

we are in thailand.

we are dealing with engeniers building something that they might not know much of.

and also the less concret used from the workers, means more money for them to use.

see the roads. every few meters there is a big hole in the street, meaning on that part of the road they have used less concret that they supposed have done.

but as i said we are in thailand.

AMAZING THAILAND

Actually Thai engineers are quite well educated and know their trade. Accidents happen everywhere especially during construction and no it does not mean something was not designed well or shoddy concrete was used if there is collapse during construction. Most often these are related to accidents happening during construction and lifting of heavy items that result in collapse.

Road are mainly asphalt, not concrete here. Even though some highways have concrete sections on them. However have not seen many holes in them. Seen much worse in places like Phils, Indo etc but also in state of New York...

Just take a look around, this aint europe but aint so bad either...

Thanks for injecting some reality into the thread...you really have to wonder why all these whiners even stay in Thailand when all they do is whinge!

[thaimate]

ime not going into Mikes or Royal Mall either just in case they collapse ,i mean they have only been up 10 years or so .

get a life boys ,perhaps Terrible Thailand just isnt safe enough for you.

[Spalpeen]

Getting back to the original post and subsequent comments....

1. Concrete slump tests are carried out using a cone, not a length of pipe. Every engineer knows this.

2. As concrete gains strength slowly, the definitive tests on concrete test cubes are carried out after 28 days. If these indicate a problem then you have to come up with and implement a solution. This may be an explanation for the steel brackets shown.

3. As has been stated, the steel brackets are there to stop the slab "punching" down around the column by giving a larger bearing area. This is called a shear failure and is characterised by diagonal cracks forming in the slab. Shear failure at slab/column junctions is prevented by the use of shear link reinforcement. These are short hooked bars which link the top and bottom mats of steel in the immediate vicinity of the column and prevent the diagonal cracks from forming. Because these are small, fiddly to fix and their purpose is not immediately obvious steel fixers often try to leave them out unless you make the f@ckers put them in. This is the most likely explanation for the brackets shown.

If brackets are now being fixed to all columns in the basement as reported then this is a bad sign. On the positive side, if this is a shear link problem then the brackets probably will fix it. The worst case scenario is that if you get an uncontained shear failure at one column load is transferred to the adjacent columns which can then fail in turn resulting in a progressive collapse. This is possible but unlikely.

Dodgy design and construction is by no means unique to Thailand. Anyone interested in this should look up the structural history of the Citigroup building in New York. Now that really was a <deleted> up !

Mr Spalpeen - Engineer.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Spalpeen

[Mobi]

Getting back to the original post and subsequent comments....

1. Concrete slump tests are carried out using a cone, not a length of pipe. Every engineer knows this.

2. As concrete gains strength slowly, the definitive tests on concrete test cubes are carried out after 28 days. If these indicate a problem then you have to come up with and implement a solution. This may be an explanation for the steel brackets shown.

3. As has been stated, the steel brackets are there to stop the slab "punching" down around the column by giving a larger bearing area. This is called a shear failure and is characterised by diagonal cracks forming in the slab. Shear failure at slab/column junctions is prevented by the use of shear link reinforcement. These are short hooked bars which link the top and bottom mats of steel in the immediate vicinity of the column and prevent the diagonal cracks from forming. Because these are small, fiddly to fix and their purpose is not immediately obvious steel fixers often try to leave them out unless you make the f@ckers put them in. This is the most likely explanation for the brackets shown.

If brackets are now being fixed to all columns in the basement as reported then this is a bad sign. On the positive side, if this is a shear link problem then the brackets probably will fix it. The worst case scenario is that if you get an uncontained shear failure at one column load is transferred to the adjacent columns which can then fail in turn resulting in a progressive collapse. This is possible but unlikely.

Dodgy design and construction is by no means unique to Thailand. Anyone interested in this should look up the structural history of the Citigroup building in New York. Now that really was a <deleted> up !

Mr Spalpeen - Engineer.

Well I'm still paranoid and I won't go in it, regardless of what anyone calls me.

When you've been around in third world countries as long as I have, you develop a third sense about these things, otherwise you don't survive.

Someone mentioned building on sand. It brings to mind my experience in Abu Dhabi back in the early 70's when a several buildings built on the sand in what was then a new town, started collapsing.

I lived ina 6 storey apartment block, and one day I came back from my office to find the building had collapsed!

If the people who built Central Pattaya can screw up in the columns, who knows what other screw ups there are elsewhere in the building.

At least Mikes, and Royal Garden have been there long enough to stand the test of time

[Phil Conners]

Thanks for injecting some reality into the thread...you really have to wonder why all these whiners even stay in Thailand when all they do is whinge!

You are allowed your opinion, particularly if you have qualifications to back it, but can we hold the name calling please.

[PattayaParent]

Getting back to the original post and subsequent comments....

1. Concrete slump tests are carried out using a cone, not a length of pipe. Every engineer knows this.

2. As concrete gains strength slowly, the definitive tests on concrete test cubes are carried out after 28 days. If these indicate a problem then you have to come up with and implement a solution. This may be an explanation for the steel brackets shown.

3. As has been stated, the steel brackets are there to stop the slab "punching" down around the column by giving a larger bearing area. This is called a shear failure and is characterised by diagonal cracks forming in the slab. Shear failure at slab/column junctions is prevented by the use of shear link reinforcement. These are short hooked bars which link the top and bottom mats of steel in the immediate vicinity of the column and prevent the diagonal cracks from forming. Because these are small, fiddly to fix and their purpose is not immediately obvious steel fixers often try to leave them out unless you make the f@ckers put them in. This is the most likely explanation for the brackets shown.

If brackets are now being fixed to all columns in the basement as reported then this is a bad sign. On the positive side, if this is a shear link problem then the brackets probably will fix it. The worst case scenario is that if you get an uncontained shear failure at one column load is transferred to the adjacent columns which can then fail in turn resulting in a progressive collapse. This is possible but unlikely.

Dodgy design and construction is by no means unique to Thailand. Anyone interested in this should look up the structural history of the Citigroup building in New York. Now that really was a <deleted> up !

Mr Spalpeen - Engineer.

But the retrofit problems with the Citicorp building were a result of the wind tunnel affect caused by the buildings built around it. This was not a problem at the time of construction as it was the first building in the area and therefore no other buildings figured into the wind tunnel studies.

Quite a reasonable explanation of the Central building otherwise.

[thaihome]

As some else has said, this appears to be a structural retro fit. I know of another multi storey structure that had to have similar retro fits. This was done after reviewing the test results from the concrete showed the strength was significantly less then specified due to problems at the batch plant.

I doubt that the design was flawed, but we will probably never know. I do remember that in the Citi building in NYC issue, they never announced before the repair was done that there was even a problem and did the entire job in secret.

TH

[tropo]

Well I'm still paranoid and I won't go in it, regardless of what anyone calls me.

When you've been around in third world countries as long as I have, you develop a third sense about these things, otherwise you don't survive.

How many building collapses has your third sense (?) saved you from in Thailand?

[anothertorres]

Well I'm still paranoid and I won't go in it, regardless of what anyone calls me.

When you've been around in third world countries as long as I have, you develop a third sense about these things, otherwise you don't survive.

How many building collapses has your third sense (?) saved you from in Thailand?

he's so slick, he's probably survived all of them. anyway, i figure i'll play the odds and try not to be "that guy who died when Centan fell down". wish me luck...

[Soutpeel]

Well I'm still paranoid and I won't go in it, regardless of what anyone calls me.

When you've been around in third world countries as long as I have, you develop a third sense about these things, otherwise you don't survive.

How many building collapses has your third sense (?) saved you from in Thailand?

.....Think there are a quite a few people in Pattaya who start their Chang/Mekong far too early in the morning......

[Spalpeen]

"But the retrofit problems with the Citicorp building were a result of the wind tunnel affect caused by the buildings built around it. This was not a problem at the time of construction as it was the first building in the area and therefore no other buildings figured into the wind tunnel studies." (Quote)

Not strictly correct. The Citicorp problem was certainly wind related but it came to light in 1978, just one year after the building was finished and therefore too soon for the surroundings to have changed significantly. In any case, any competent structural engineer will design for the worst possible future scenario that might arise.

The Citicorp problem arose because joints in the wind bracing system system were changed from welded to bolted during construction to save time and money and the implications were not appreciated at the time. The solution was to secretly weld steel plates across the bolted connections to stiffen them. I say secretly because the fix was kept secret from the public for 20 years. This is why I was reminded of the Citicorp problem by the hasty fix in progress at Central festival.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Spalpeen

[Mobi]

Well I'm still paranoid and I won't go in it, regardless of what anyone calls me.

When you've been around in third world countries as long as I have, you develop a third sense about these things, otherwise you don't survive.

How many building collapses has your third sense (?) saved you from in Thailand?

If I told you that, I'd have a queue outside my door asking for lucky lottery numbers.

let's just say that I didn't aught to still be here - but I am - mainly due to my third - or fourth, or fifth or even.... sixth sense.

And no, it's not the Sangsom, or the Chang.

[tropo]

Well I'm still paranoid and I won't go in it, regardless of what anyone calls me.

When you've been around in third world countries as long as I have, you develop a third sense about these things, otherwise you don't survive.

How many building collapses has your third sense (?) saved you from in Thailand?

If I told you that, I'd have a queue outside my door asking for lucky lottery numbers.

let's just say that I didn't aught to still be here - but I am - mainly due to my third - or fourth, or fifth or even.... sixth sense.

And no, it's not the Sangsom, or the Chang.

I think he was suggesting that I was drinking Sangsom/Chang too early in the morning? I've never even tried the stuff.

You could also put your long life in Asia down to luck or good fortune. There is an element of luck to living a long life.

I shop in Central Festival about 3 - 5 days a week. If Central collapses and you don't hear from Tropo, you'll know I've been flattened.

Edited June 8, 2009 by tropo

[BigSnake]

Are we below Sea level yet??

[basjke]

Well I'm still paranoid and I won't go in it, regardless of what anyone calls me.

When you've been around in third world countries as long as I have, you develop a third sense about these things, otherwise you don't survive.

How many building collapses has your third sense (?) saved you from in Thailand?

If I told you that, I'd have a queue outside my door asking for lucky lottery numbers.

let's just say that I didn't aught to still be here - but I am - mainly due to my third - or fourth, or fifth or even.... sixth sense.

And no, it's not the Sangsom, or the Chang.

I think he was suggesting that I was drinking Sangsom/Chang too early in the morning? I've never even tried the stuff.

You could also put your long life in Asia down to luck or good fortune. There is an element of luck to living a long life.

I shop in Central Festival about 3 - 5 days a week. If Central collapses and you don't hear from Tropo, you'll know I've been flattened.

Would you mind to go shopping there 7 days a week?

[MJo]

Road are mainly asphalt, not concrete here. Even though some highways have concrete sections on them. However have not seen many holes in them.

Hmm obviously you don't drive or go out much do you?

Exactly what I was going to say!

Just about every road I drive to get where I want on has potholes in it.

Well i have to admid that i havent been driving from pattaya to jomtien in last couple of years so i do not know the situation of individual streets in Patters. Then again i was talking about roads and highways and would claim that main roads are ok between Bangkok and Chiang Mai, as well as from bangkok to KK, Udon and all the way up to Vientiane. Roadworks from Bangkok to Hua Hin are now completed i believe so that is ok as well. From Hua Hin to Surat Thani ok, same from there to Phuket side and all the way down to Malaysia. And i drive these roads by bike so believe me i have "found" each and every pothole on these roads.

And to add from BKK to Pattaya is not that bad either, especially if you use elevated highway, under it is bumpy but not so many holes. Chonburi expressway from Rama 9 was ok as well last time but that is about a year ago i drove it last time.

And sure there is isolated locations where the road is bad and due for repair and i do not have updated info on those but in general the roads are in good shape and safe with two lanes to each direction. Only killer is the u-turns. Extremely dangerous, both official and unofficial ones.

I would say that condition of roads here are second only to Singapore, Malaysia and naturally HK and Japan. And much better than say Cambodia, Indonesia or Philippines. And yes, i have been driving all of those countries except HK and Japan.

So i do not know where you guys drive and need to go but maybe you should take it up with the pattaya city if there is issues with the streets.

[MJo]

Actually Thai engineers are quite well educated and know their trade.

It's not the well educated and well paid Thai engineers I'm worried about. It's the Issan farmer who is pouring the concrete for 150b a day that has me on edge.

Well a qualified engineer can spot a column where there is no concrete inside after they take the formwork out

I mean seriously, they supervise their workers and you can see if the concrete is not compacted proper.

[Lancashirelad]

I remember soon after they started to build Central. They'be maybe 10 floors up in the centre.

All the rebar horizontal steel support stucture was in place ready for concreting a floor, somewhere between floors 5 & 8 i'd guess.

At the North East corner the steel work collapsed under its own weight. A hel_l of a mess it was, just hanging down all twisted & torn. Anybody else remember it?

So annoyed now i didn't manage to get a pic.

Think I must have left Pattaya soon after because i don't remember how they rescued the situation, whereas previously i was walking past along 2nd rd most nights.

By the way: What is its correct title? Central Festival Centre is the one at Big C opposite soi 2.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Lancashirelad

[SNGLIFE]

WAITAMINUTE...

The column number is D12. The cinema is on the 6th level and there is no parking that higher than that, I am sure. The basement does not have a level "D" (that I can recall). Can someone else confirm that these pictures are in fact from Central?

[Soutpeel]

WAITAMINUTE...

The column number is D12. The cinema is on the 6th level and there is no parking that higher than that, I am sure. The basement does not have a level "D" (that I can recall). Can someone else confirm that these pictures are in fact from Central?

Oh Chr*st....another..conspriracey theory... .

[basjke]

Can someone call michael moore please.

[tropo]

I think he was suggesting that I was drinking Sangsom/Chang too early in the morning? I've never even tried the stuff.

You could also put your long life in Asia down to luck or good fortune. There is an element of luck to living a long life.

I shop in Central Festival about 3 - 5 days a week. If Central collapses and you don't hear from Tropo, you'll know I've been flattened.

Would you mind to go shopping there 7 days a week?

I'd take up residence in there if there were apartments for rent.

[johng]

I'd take up residence in there if there were apartments for rent.

Well when ( if it doesn't collapse first ) they finish the Hilton Hotel you could rent an executive suite there, and be only an elevator ride away from all those overpriced designer clothing outlets.