Central May Be About To Collapse

[MJo]

WAITAMINUTE...

The column number is D12. The cinema is on the 6th level and there is no parking that higher than that, I am sure. The basement does not have a level "D" (that I can recall). Can someone else confirm that these pictures are in fact from Central?

My extensive research shows without no doubt that this published picture has been manipulated. To be more specific it seems several anchor bolts has been "erased" from the picture, propably by photoshop, to make the connection appear weaker as it actually is. So i will call HOAX !

[foxxx]

[johng]

So i will call HOAX !

Not a hoax.

[anothertorres]

My extensive research shows without no doubt that this published picture has been manipulated. To be more specific it seems several anchor bolts has been "erased" from the picture, propably by photoshop, to make the connection appear weaker as it actually is. So i will call HOAX !

i don't think there was any PSing done with these photos. i've been manipulated photos since 1877 and i see nothing that looks suspicious. what you are seeing is pixelating due to a pocket point-n-shoot mixed with poor lighting.

[LennyW]

This one certainly looks a bit dodgy! Especially the rather large crack/gap above it???

Edited June 10, 2009 by LennyW

[anothertorres]

haha, that one is absolutely as dodgy as can be. bolt that column up all you want, but that crack is only going to get bigger by the hour.

[Mobi]

haha, that one is absolutely as dodgy as can be. bolt that column up all you want, but that crack is only going to get bigger by the hour.

And you should know, having been around for over 130 years

Think I'll start dusting off my obituary phrases....

He was warned, but his addiction to Up market Dept stores became his downfall.

He will be sorely missed by all those who he disagreed with on Thai Visa.

RIP Tropo

[MJo]

This one certainly looks a bit dodgy! Especially the rather large crack/gap above it???

Ok back to topic on hand again as my conspiracy theory was shot down

Crack is quit wide and linear and for me does not appear what i would expect from a crack forming on failing floor slab (failing due inadecuate re-bar or concrete strenght). I do not know for sure if the concrete slab above the column is pre-fab or casted at site or combination. Linear crack like this points towards pre-cast. Maybe the pro's can give more info on this or someone who know if the floor slabs were casted at site as whole or casted on top of hollow-core slab or similar.

Then again as why the crack is there, buildings normally settle down a bit. If it happens unevenly, i.e. some foundation settle more than others it can cause cracking in floors and walls etc. Then again it should not happen in that big scale if the whole building is on pile foundations. Again pure speculation as i do not know the facts...

[seadoo]

WAITAMINUTE...

The column number is D12. The cinema is on the 6th level and there is no parking that higher than that, I am sure. The basement does not have a level "D" (that I can recall). Can someone else confirm that these pictures are in fact from Central?

Level G - parking section D12 - obviously not spent too much time in Central have we - Hmmmm

Then it goes up to Level 1

Level 1 1/2

Level 2

Level 2 1/2

And so on...

[anothertorres]

haha, that one is absolutely as dodgy as can be. bolt that column up all you want, but that crack is only going to get bigger by the hour.

And you should know, having been around for over 130 years

Think I'll start dusting off my obituary phrases....

He was warned, but his addiction to Up market Dept stores became his downfall.

He will be sorely missed by all those who he disagreed with on Thai Visa.

RIP Tropo

:D

who is Tropo?

[Tokay]

Actually Thai engineers are quite well educated and know their trade.

It's not the well educated and well paid Thai engineers I'm worried about. It's the Issan farmer who is pouring the concrete for 150b a day that has me on edge.

Well a qualified engineer can spot a column where there is no concrete inside after they take the formwork out

I mean seriously, they supervise their workers and you can see if the concrete is not compacted proper.

Do you mean the same way they supervise their crew hammering in screws? Or the way they supervise the electricians taping up the wires instead of using wire nuts?

I don't trust any of them. All I know is, they are adding these supports by the day and anytime I've had someone come to fix my roof, it leaks more after they have left. My food orders get messed up 90% of the time. They mess up my laundry. They are unable to pour the proper concrete to keep the roads from getting huge pot holes, and almost all of the crews on every construction site have no formal training. So with this basic information, I MUST place my money on the crew of Central screwing something up.

[raro]

who is Tropo?

If you shop at Mike's you might not know him...

[Phil Conners]

Do you mean the same way they supervise their crew hammering in screws? Or the way they supervise the electricians taping up the wires instead of using wire nuts?

Or the way they always get a handful of screws leftover after repairs on your car/bike. "Not necessary!" they say.

[Mobi]

Do you mean the same way they supervise their crew hammering in screws? Or the way they supervise the electricians taping up the wires instead of using wire nuts?

Or the way they always get a handful of screws leftover after repairs on your car/bike. "Not necessary!" they say.

Many years ago I was told of a Thai expression, which roughly translated means:" Farangs always put too many parts into something", which is a stock answer whenever Thais repair something, and there are few screws , nuts, washers, O rings, etc.. left over when they have finished re-assembling.

Last year I had the front wing on my BMW repaired and resprayed by an insurance approved, German owned and managed reputable repairer of upmarket cars. I recently discovered that the lacquer had peeled off from the new paintwork. I took it back, and the German owner apologised, and told me his crew must have got the mix wrong when they prepared the paint! He will re-spray free of charge, but it doesn't excuse the screw up.

If you go into a Bangkok building site, you will be impressed by the overall professionalism that seems to pervade there. Safety signs everywhere, hard hats worn by everyone, and just a general feeling that they are all experienced and capable workers; from those who mix the cement, to the highly skilled artisans.. This has to be the case, because there are so many major construction projects continually on the go in Bangkok, it would be a disaster if they were sub -standard. I bet all the electricians, plumbers, and other skilled artisans, are properly qualified, and properly supervised.

But once you get outside of Bangkok, it is a completely different story. I know next to nothing about construction, but I do know that every electrician you find on a construction site is also a plumber and usually knows F. all about either skills. They have no system of apprenticeship and 'doing their time' and they all think they know everything there is to know about building and fixing and installing everything, and we farangs are all stupid. All it takes to be hired as a senior manager on a construction site is a bullshit degree that was probably "bought" by Daddy. Someone who had minimum schooling, but years of experience, won't even get a look in.

OK, Central was a major project - one of the biggest ever carried out in recent years in Pattaya - and no doubt the construction firm brought a lot of skilled workers and managers from Bangkok. But I bet you they also used a load of local workers, especially at the semi skilled and labouring end. If these firms are used to building in Bangkok where there is a pool of experienced workers, then even they might not have been aware how useless some of the workers are in Pattaya - some of them can't even speak Thai - let alone English.

So it wouldn't surprise me one iota, if the building turns out to be sub standard. A typical Thai Fck.Up.

I hope I'm wrong, but just to be sure I'll stick to Mike's.

At least I won't see Tropo there.

[MJo]

"I know next to nothing about construction"

That's the thing here, but there is few basic things you could even pick up from very informative tv shows in Discovery and NGC.

- Cement is not mixed, it is used to make concrete together with sand, gravel, water and some additives.

- Concrete used in Central is definedly not site mix, so it has been mixed in controlled environment at the batching plant

- Roads are not "made of concrete", some have concrete surface but most not. Say in pattaya almost all roads are not with concrete surface.

- Potholes occur as the layers below the pavement (asphalt) are not done proper or the pavement is broken and rainwater eats the layers under it away.

- Building single house and building a big commercial building has nothing to with eachother apart from the fact that both have "walls" and "roof"

- For quality construction you do not need labour with formal training, what you need is skilled labour and all major companies doing these buildings have those at hand also outside Bangkok and definedly in Pattaya

Tokay, i'm sure your laundry or grocery delivery does not get messed up if you hire couple of engineers to supervise them full time. I mean create ISO9000 quality system to support the supervision processes with extensive checklists to ensure all is in order when your laundry is delivered. For this you obviously need to employ experienced quality manager and set up a QA offices both to your house and to the laudry company's premises. Also demand formal education or proven skills from all laudry employees to ensure they have the knowledge to deliver your laundry. And don't forget, safety first! You propably also should set up H&S system as per ISO or other internationally recognized system. Oh, and almost forget, you also need to get your system audited by 3rd party certification body to get yourself ISO certified. Now this might sound confusing and propably costs a bit money but i can assure you after this your laundry arrives in order 99.99% of time.

And Mobi, you say you do not know anything from construction so how you tell if the electrician or someone else don't know <deleted> all ?

From my own experience this happens also in the west. Nothing worse than "owner" of "customer" who hangs out at the site all day long claiming all is fcuked up and demands and sometimes forces the crews to do unsafe and sometimes plainly illegal installations based on their "expert opinion"

Sure something is wrong there as they are rectifying the problem. The good news for me is that they are rectifying the problem. In a typical thai <deleted> up i would have expected them to fill the crack with old newspapers and painting over it once a week

But would be really good to get a comment on this from the developer or building management. How come none of the local newspapers have not picked this up yet ? I would expect to see lot of articles in the papers speculating what's going on...

[Mobi]

MJo,

I don't doubt anything you have written. I was trying to make a few points, rather than being technically correct. I don't know and don't particularly care whether they mix concrete on site or whether the concrete is pre cast and delivered in bloody great columns.

Yes, I know nothing about construction, but of course I know that building a house is in completely different league to building a multi storey shopping centre.

But I have my innate farang common sense, and I have spent a life time in a number of highly successful businesses at senior levels and I can use my brain, and my 35 years + of experience in in Thailand to draw some obvious conclusions.

I repeat: electricians think they are also plumbers and vice versa, and I bet you there were some on that construction project that had little or no experience of either. It's a pound to a penny that they hired a lot of local labour, who would have been much cheaper than bringing labour in from Bangkok, and that is where, if at all, the project might have ended up sub standard.

You didn't seem to get my point so I will repeat it. Bangkok is in a different world to the rest of Thailand. Even the corruption is different. They might be able get away with bribing the police and building inspectors to lock exit doors at night clubs, but they are more or less required to conform to internationally accepted building standards when embarking on major construction projects. Out here, in 4th world country, anything can and will happen, and "bungs" are king.

The anecdotes about laundry, car painting etc being screwed up, are simply illustrating the general attitude and culture of the Thais, whereby many are simply not educated or sufficiently skilled, despite a string of certificates, to perform work competently and with integrity.

And BTW, IMHO the whole ISO 9000/02 etc crap is the biggest money making con ever perpetrated on the world's business community. Just look at all the incompetent, fck'd up companies in Thailand who proudly claim they are ISO approved, if you need confirmation of this.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Mobi

[MJo]

MJo,

I don't doubt anything you have written. I was trying to make a few points, rather than being technically correct. I don't know and don't particularly care whether they mix concrete on site or whether the concrete is pre cast and delivered in bloody great columns.

Yes, I know nothing about construction, but of course I know that building a house is in completely different league to building a multi storey shopping centre.

But I have my innate farang common sense, and I have spent a life time in a number of highly successful businesses at senior levels and I can use my brain, and my 35 years + of experience in in Thailand to draw some obvious conclusions.

I repeat: electricians think they are also plumbers and vice versa, and I bet you there were some on that construction project that had little or no experience of either. It's a pound to a penny that they hired a lot of local labour, who would have been much cheaper than bringing labour in from Bangkok, and that is where, if at all, the project might have ended up sub standard.

You didn't seem to get my point so I will repeat it. Bangkok is in a different world to the rest of Thailand. Even the corruption is different. They might be able get away with bribing the police and building inspectors to lock exit doors at night clubs, but they are more or less required to conform to internationally accepted building standards when embarking on major construction projects. Out here, in 4th world country, anything can and will happen, and "bungs" are king.

The anecdotes about laundry, car painting etc being screwed up, are simply illustrating the general attitude and culture of the Thais, whereby many are simply not educated or sufficiently skilled, despite a string of certificates, to perform work competently and with integrity.

And BTW, IMHO the whole ISO 9000/02 etc crap is the biggest money making con ever perpetrated on the world's business community. Just look at all the incompetent, fck'd up companies in Thailand who proudly claim they are ISO approved, if you need confirmation of this.

I hear you but also think your farang common sense is still way off with your assumption on local labour used. Those labourers you see working in a site are almost all local or immigrant workers (Myanmar mainly). They usually have skills required for their job which is to construct the formworks and install and tie down the rebars followed by crew that pours and compacts the concrete. And all this is done under supervision of the site engineers who are competent and formally educated and know how to read the drawings and will ensure the workers install the rebars and compact the concrete proper. In addition to this supervision comes the QA which means based on their quality management system they double check that the rebars are correct and everything comforms with the specs. So my point is that underskilled labour can not <deleted> it up, if the do they will do it again as many times as it is needed to get it right before the concrete is casted. If something goes wrong with the casting it is taken down the next day and casted again if required.

Electrical installations and other non-structural stuff is more prone to be messed up. However bigger sites use subcontractors that have adecuate supervision staff and inspect themselfs after works are completed. However this is irrelevant in this case as we are talking about structural failures.

I'm also all too familiar with the Thai mentality you are talking about, what i'm saying it does not apply to building structures in big commercial projects. Actually Central as the client must employ their own consultants that still triple check everything on top of the subcontractors and main contractors own checks. So it is taken very seriously in this size projects be it in Pattaya or Bangkok. I also have and still are working with several thai engineers and in general they are well educated, have high morale and sense of professionalism. And take extreme pride on their achievements and work. Sure there is some bad apples but in general they are good. Actually so good that many foreign companies have started to employ them instead of bringing in expats.

I do smile when i see ISO certified ambulances, taxis and noodle stalls but some industries which include construction and say car manufacturing they actually are useful (not the certification but the management systems and processes certified). It would be impossible to properly manage site that size without any kind of recorded processes and systems in place. ISO certification merely is independend audit that will prove that you follow your own processes nothing more. Check out the facts from car manufacturers and you see what happened when the japanese started with quality management systems. It started the chain reaction that has now resulted as the death of US car industry. Maybe in banking or selling coke this is a scam as you propably need one as everyone else has one but have no use for it. But it's the same how those compiling your company's annual report call themselfs project managers

I'm not saying all this means it is not possible to <deleted> it up, something has gone wrong as we can all see from the pics. My point is that in general building industry in thailand is not run by mafiosos and all buildings are not substandard and unsafe due corruption and unskilled labour or the "thai mentality".

As someone said this happens also in New York and elsewhere in the states. Actually i can not remember any major buildings in Thailand that has come down due design errors or due substandard construction. Not like US where there are many shown every week in discovery and NGC.

I understand the need to complain and air ones frustration of the daily annoyances one has living in Thailand but to claim it also applies to biggest players in thai construction industry is a bit thick.

[rafval]

I hope I'm wrong, but just to be sure I'll stick to Mike's.

these threads seem to come back to Mikes but as I mentioned in the last, is no one concerned about the cracks that run down the outside and likely interior of that building?

[MJo]

I hope I'm wrong, but just to be sure I'll stick to Mike's.

these threads seem to come back to Mikes but as I mentioned in the last, is no one concerned about the cracks that run down the outside and likely interior of that building?

yes, now when you mentioned it that is the reason i never go to mike's anymore. Just too dangerous.

[Ungabunga]

Mikes is the only place I can get T-shirts to fit me, so does that mean I should send the missus in there to buy them for me?

[PattayaParent]

MJo,

you will generally hear Amercian's referring to 'cement' but meaning concrete.

Also they may refer to concrete (as opposed to cement) when referring to the tarmacadam surface of roads as it is sometimes known as asphaltic concrete.

[Phil Conners]

Electrical installations and other non-structural stuff is more prone to be messed up. However bigger sites use subcontractors that have adecuate supervision staff and inspect themselfs after works are completed. However this is irrelevant in this case as we are talking about structural failures.

If you have a house, try sticking your head up through the ceiling and have a look at the electric installations. 'nuff said...

[Mobi]

MJo,

I bow to your obvious experience in the Thai construction industry.

I remain unconvinced that even respected international construction companies will not cut the odd corner or two when it is so easy to do so by way of bribes. After all, if it is done in the western world, how much greater is the temptation in a country with a totally corrupt infrastructure and nearly every civil servant on the take to pay for his kids schooling and the new car?

The proof is in the pudding so they say, so let's see how this all pans out

As for Mike's - well you would expect a few cracks after all the years it has been there

But at least it has lasted this long, so they must have done something right.

Maybe that's why they keep all that heavy pirated stuff on the ground floor - to spread the loads, stresses and strains

[toptuan]

Actually Thai engineers are quite well educated and know their trade.

Hopeful thinking. I live and work with Thai engineering students. They party 24/7, and only study once a semester--the two days before final exams. I wouldn't trust a roller skate designed by a Thai engineer.

....highways....However have not seen many holes in them.

You must be talking about a very limited area of Thailand--perhaps only the main expressways? Have you visited the typical secondary roads (read: non-expressways) in Isaan--the abode of 20 million people? How about most of the tourist islands? Your comment is a total joke to anyone who's lived more than 6 months here.

Edited June 11, 2009 by toptuan

[Mobi]

Actually Thai engineers are quite well educated and know their trade.

Hopeful thinking. I live and work with Thai engineering students. They party 24/7, and only study once a semester--the two days before final exams. I wouldn't trust a roller skate designed by a Thai engineer.

....highways....However have not seen many holes in them.

You must be talking about a very limited area of Thailand--perhaps only the main expressways? Have you visited the typical secondary roads (read: non-expressways) in Isaan--the above of 20 million people? How about most of the tourist islands? Your comment is a total joke to anyone who's lived more than 6 months here.

Yes, well I've mentioned the "paid for" qualifications a few times, and I was going to mention the Thai penchant for partying (think how much extra partying there might have been when all these young, hot blooded engineers were seconded to the Central Pattaya project? ), but thought I'd said enough.

As for the condition of roads- well we could all tell of our experience of bad roads till the cows come home. The New local road that runs either side of the railway tracks traversing Pattaya city hasn't even officially opened, yet some areas are already filled with pot holes and some in some areas the surface that has completely collapsed.

My experience of Isaan roads is that it takes a few fatal accidents (motorcyclists disappearing into very large pot holes in the rain or at night) before anything is done to fix the problem.

Even major roads sometimes contain extremely dangerous pot holes, which appear without warning or notice. You have to be on your guard at all times.

[anothertorres]

hey guys, the wife and i are about to go down to the mall and i just wanted to say goodbye just in case. i have had a wonderful time, but this wasn't it.

uay pon pohm chok dee!

[basjke]

Actually i can not remember any major buildings in Thailand that has come down due design errors or due substandard construction. Not like US where there are many shown every week in discovery and NGC.

You are seemingly also not familiar with google.Try a google for building collapse thailand or hotel collapse thailand and start reading the results.

HINT: do the google when you have some extra time because you gonna need it to read all the results.

[MJo]

MJo,

I bow to your obvious experience in the Thai construction industry.

I remain unconvinced that even respected international construction companies will not cut the odd corner or two when it is so easy to do so by way of bribes. After all, if it is done in the western world, how much greater is the temptation in a country with a totally corrupt infrastructure and nearly every civil servant on the take to pay for his kids schooling and the new car?

The proof is in the pudding so they say, so let's see how this all pans out

As for Mike's - well you would expect a few cracks after all the years it has been there

But at least it has lasted this long, so they must have done something right.

Maybe that's why they keep all that heavy pirated stuff on the ground floor - to spread the loads, stresses and strains

As said everything is possible. Highly unlikely but possible. It's holding for now but once they start to renovate with added or shifted loads it can still come down after few decades

[MJo]

Actually i can not remember any major buildings in Thailand that has come down due design errors or due substandard construction. Not like US where there are many shown every week in discovery and NGC.

You are seemingly also not familiar with google.Try a google for building collapse thailand or hotel collapse thailand and start reading the results.

HINT: do the google when you have some extra time because you gonna need it to read all the results.

Maybe you should try to learn how to read. Both posts and google results

Yes google pulls 100k+ hits. Few accidents during construction or small buildings and a lot that has nothing to do with Thailand. And yes, i was talking about high profile cases department stores coming down "korean style". I can't remember any from Thailand in past 10+ years and was simply asking can anyone else remember anything. So i did not ask you check how many hits google gets for word "collapse" or "building"

[MJo]

Actually Thai engineers are quite well educated and know their trade.

Hopeful thinking. I live and work with Thai engineering students. They party 24/7, and only study once a semester--the two days before final exams. I wouldn't trust a roller skate designed by a Thai engineer.

....highways....However have not seen many holes in them.

You must be talking about a very limited area of Thailand--perhaps only the main expressways? Have you visited the typical secondary roads (read: non-expressways) in Isaan--the abode of 20 million people? How about most of the tourist islands? Your comment is a total joke to anyone who's lived more than 6 months here.

Since you asked... my mojo is over 8 years long, how about yours ?

All answers you seek are up there in my post. For a hint i could reveal you that expressways are mostly found in bangkok sometimes called tollways. National highways can be found all over the country. Then there is highways, provincial roads and even dirt roads in the sticks, can you believe that