Mr Hippo's Day In Court

[mr_hippo]

It's been a long, long month for me; first of all the arrest then 2 nights in the Immigration Detention Centre, followed by the first court appearance, two probation meetings and sentencing today.

In my life, I have been knocked down so many times and then kicked so you start to think 'Is it worth getting up again or should I just lie here for my next kicking?' All possible permutations have been spinning round my head - secretly hoping for the best but fearing the worst!

Mrs Hippo and I arrived at the court today with the lawyer and sat in the court at 9 o'clock along with about 5 other defendants (different cases) - will I be the first case or the last? I thought that the trial would start at 9 but no, the judge came in at 10 and my name was called first.

Mrs Hippo and I approached and the judge gave the sentence - 3000 Baht fine and a 6 month suspended prison sentence; he said that it should have been double but as I had confessed and my probation report was good he halved it. The prison sentence is suspended for two years.

Did the school report me? Not according to the probation officer. There is someone at the Ministry checking all degrees, he shown me the list but as it was in Thai, I was not able to read it.

So anyone who has worked with a fake in the past 7 or 8 years or is working with one now, I think that you have every reason to be concerned. I got off light but I fear that this will not happen in every case - be careful!

[twschw]

What was the official charge?

[colino]

Thanks for the update

Big sigh of relief now its over I bet .

All the best for the future

Colino

Edited June 11, 2009 by colino

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm glad you got off relatively lightly, Mr. Hippo. A good reminder for our readers: it is NOT illegal to work without a degree, if the school is capable of sponsoring you for a proper work permit and visa- but it IS illegal to lie about your degree, so don't do it!

[Scott]

Thanks for the update and glad it worked out relatively well for you.

[Xangsamhua]

Best of luck for the future. Does having a six-month suspended prison sentence prevent you from working in Thailand for the coming two years?

[Mario2008]

I can't recall being a question on your WP application forms and it is also not a problem for getting an extension of stay from immigraiton. But I can't say how it will effect a police clearence if you need one. It certainly will not do fine on a recidency application.

[rixalex]

Good to hear the outcome wasn't as bad as feared Mr Hippo. Will you get your bail money returned? Will you be able to say in the Kingdom?

Fingers crossed this episode is over for you.

[Neeranam]

I heard that there's not someone checking all degrees but they know which ones were mass produced from Khaao San Road - for example BA in Art froem Leeds. So they are sifted through them looking for ones from certain unis.

[Neeranam]

Are you the only one that has been found out - find it hard to believe - there are thousands out there.

Something strnge about this case, haven't figured out what yet.

[rixalex]

Something strnge about this case, haven't figured out what yet.

I agree. My suspicion is that the schools that employ teachers who don't have all the legal requirements, have contacts on the inside who are taken care of in exchange for turning a blind eye. If the school's contact retires or gets upset then that school and its employees are no longer being protected. Just a guess.

[mr_hippo]

Best of luck for the future. Does having a six-month suspended prison sentence prevent you from working in Thailand for the coming two years?

I am now retired so cannot answer that.

Are you the only one that has been found out - find it hard to believe - there are thousands out there.

The police and probation officer have shown me a list of 60+ names and I feel that it was only the first page! People will be caught when they renew their extension or work permit. My details were passed onto the police last year but it was after I renewed my last extension. The probation officer did read outa name from the list from one of the schools I worked at but I did not recognize the name. It would not be prudent of me to reveal that name.

Will you get your bail money returned? Will you be able to say in the Kingdom?

Bail money will be returned and I have not been deported. We did get a pleasant surprise when we paid the fine. We paid the 3000 Baht and they returned 400 Baht - 200 Baht per night for the 2 nights that I spent in the detention centre.

I heard that there's not someone checking all degrees but they know which ones were mass produced from Khaao San Road - for example BA in Art froem Leeds. So they are sifted through them looking for ones from certain unis.

I believe that they are also looking at signatures on the degrees. Could Mr X be the dean of Wagga Wagga University, Podink University and the University of Midsomer St Agnes at the same time?

If anyone wants to know who signed my fake and the university, please PM me.

[beano2274]

Like others in the post, I cannot believe that they are sifting through the Work Permit applications. I think that either they have a list from Khao Sarn Road, or could it be WP applications against Tax records.

Also why wait at Immigration till you get an extension of your Visa, unless you are still using the fake degree, why not do after 90 day reporting, or even at the Border crossings, just let you out but not back in.....

[patklang]

Maybe they are tracking down you criminals so the kids can get a better education,and no proper degrees could mean a teacher might be a criiminal or worse.

Totaly agree that the cheats should get fined.

[Mario2008]

Maybe they are tracking down you criminals so the kids can get a better education,and no proper degrees could mean a teacher might be a criiminal or worse.

Totaly agree that the cheats should get fined.

I think if you read the story he admits it was wrong to do.

As for your comment that no degree could mean that someone is a criminal or worse I think that is nonsense. having a degree or not has nothing to do with being a criminal or not. Many criminals get a degree while studying in prison. Having a degree also doesn't mean that one is a better teacher then a teacher without a degree.

[beano2274]

Maybe they are tracking down you criminals so the kids can get a better education,and no proper degrees could mean a teacher might be a criiminal or worse.

Totaly agree that the cheats should get fined.

Agree that cheats should get fined. However the bit about teachers with false degrees might be criminals is not a good point, remembering the American Teacher who played with little kids at school and after school, The head teacher at AUA as well.

Both well qualified teachers, so please do not say that teachers without a degree might be criminals, the same could be said

about those with degrees.

[rixalex]

Totaly agree that the cheats should get fined.

I agree too but that should include the school. It's completely one-sided.

Besides which, Mr Hippo has already held up his hands and accepted his wrong-doing, so why rub it in?

[beano2274]

I agree with your statement about the School should pay up to, I think the whole thing has been about Tax the school never paid for Mr Hippo. But that's another story.

If you cheat and get caught you will get fined, and Mr Hippo has in all fairness been straight with everyone including the Police and The Court.

Well done to Mr Hippo, and I hope you forget this episode and can move on and enjoy life here.

[rixalex]

Well done to Mr Hippo, and I hope you forget this episode and can move on and enjoy life here.

Here, here.

Mr Hippo, is that it all over now? What are the ramifications for your future? Does having a criminal record affect your continued stay here?

[PoorSucker]

Congrats, Mr Hippo.

[patklang]

I wouldnt like my kids be taught by a convicted criminal no matter what the offense was,and i wouldnt think he has a chance of getting a teaching job again.

I know he has admitted to wrong doing but this worries me that there are many fake degrees about,and will reduce the quality of teaching in schools.All the ones sticking up for him,are you teachers and have you got fake degrees,as the OP seems to have been in touch with some of you.

[rixalex]

i wouldnt think he has a chance of getting a teaching job again.

He has been retired for a few years already so not sure what you mean by this.

[Mario2008]

Nobody denies that children deserves good teachers. But while I would like to see teachers properly trained, having a degree doesn't mean one is a good teacher. Nor does not having a degree means one is a bad teacher. Educating people requires skills that you don't get from a college or university.

Also note that many teachers are properly trained, only not at university level. They are certainly better then many Thai teachers I have seen with a university degree.

[beano2274]

I wouldnt like my kids be taught by a convicted criminal no matter what the offense was,and i wouldnt think he has a chance of getting a teaching job again.

I know he has admitted to wrong doing but this worries me that there are many fake degrees about,and will reduce the quality of teaching in schools.All the ones sticking up for him,are you teachers and have you got fake degrees,as the OP seems to have been in touch with some of you.

No I don't have a fake degree, but then again I do not have a degree, but I teach in many different places including Companies and Universities. I left school and joined the Army, left the Army straight to work, then Thailand.

I have worked in many schools, and have seen teachers come and go, even those with a degree could not handle the pressure of 50 kids, but many of us without degrees found it easier.

If you want to go on some kind of witch hunt, why not try those agencies who get teachers jobs in schools, without degrees and work permits, that's the place to start.

[PeaceBlondie]

I am also a retired teacher who started teaching English in Thailand, decades after earning a real BA (in Christianity) from a real uni. I stood up for Mr Hippo's belated honesty and his guilty plea.

Two main points here, IMHO - fake degrees are as dishonest as the real, accredited Thai scools who encourage teachers to get fake degrees.

[mr_hippo]

Like others in the post, I cannot believe that they are sifting through the Work Permit applications. I think that either they have a list from Khao Sarn Road, or could it be WP applications against Tax records.

Also why wait at Immigration till you get an extension of your Visa, unless you are still using the fake degree, why not do after 90 day reporting, or even at the Border crossings, just let you out but not back in.....

I have lived here since 2002 and my first visit to KSR was in 2005, in all I have been to KSR three times - the first to see what all the fuss was about and the next two to eat at On My Cod! My fake was made in 2003 by a colleague and was later adapted in a print shop in a shopping mall nowhere near KhaoSan Road so how can my name be on a list from KSR?

Are the 90 day booths computerised yet?

Maybe they are tracking down you criminals so the kids can get a better education,and no proper degrees could mean a teacher might be a criiminal or worse.

Is this a joke post? Are you saying that people without degrees are criminals and those with are not? How does a degree in macrame make one a good teacher of English? It does not!

Mr Hippo, is that it all over now? What are the ramifications for your future? Does having a criminal record affect your continued stay here?

I hope to get my passport back on Monday and will know more then but I am hopeful that I can stay.

I wouldnt like my kids be taught by a convicted criminal no matter what the offense was,and i wouldnt think he has a chance of getting a teaching job again.

I know he has admitted to wrong doing but this worries me that there are many fake degrees about,and will reduce the quality of teaching in schools.All the ones sticking up for him,are you teachers and have you got fake degrees,as the OP seems to have been in touch with some of you.

So you prefer them to be taught by Mr X (a teacher I worked with)? He had a degree and had to be paid on a weekly basis because if he had his pay monthly, it would be gone in a few days on booze and women. Even when he was paid weekly, he came in smelling of booze and often fell asleep in class! What about the one who 'had' a degree on English and did not know what the verb 'to be' was nor the difference between an adjective and an adverb? The one who was banned from every shop and eating place within a one mile radius for making sexual remarks to teenagers? Need I go on?

Who have I been in touch with? Assumptions are dangerous things!

You mention 'quality of teaching', some schools seem to only want a warm white, degreed body and their knowledge of English is not tested.

[beano2274]

Like others in the post, I cannot believe that they are sifting through the Work Permit applications. I think that either they have a list from Khao Sarn Road, or could it be WP applications against Tax records.

Also why wait at Immigration till you get an extension of your Visa, unless you are still using the fake degree, why not do after 90 day reporting, or even at the Border crossings, just let you out but not back in.....

I have lived here since 2002 and my first visit to KSR was in 2005, in all I have been to KSR three times - the first to see what all the fuss was about and the next two to eat at On My Cod! My fake was made in 2003 by a colleague and was later adapted in a print shop in a shopping mall nowhere near KhaoSan Road so how can my name be on a list from KSR?

Are the 90 day booths computerised yet?

I meant that they must have a list somewhere and the only places I knew about were on KSR.

With the 90 day reporting thing, they could have your name on a list at Suan Phlu and check the list when you go to report, or at the Border crossing a paper list and just check names, but might be too much work for some people.

Anyhow at least you had the courage to tell everyone your story.

Edited June 13, 2009 by beano2274

[MJo]

OP, maybe your mate used one of the KSR ones as template ?

In any case it is fairly easy to find out if the uni in question exists, or if it is fogery of proper school proper degree they can easily check with the school.

And i would not be that surprised if the uni's didn't include some "security" features to their degrees that most fake ones miss and are easy to spot if you know what you are looking for.

Anyways IMHO it is fairly good chance that they checked and verified degrees for your school for some reason. As you said it was not the school who reported you.

You have previously admitted that it was bad idea etc so i'm not gonna go there anymore. Hope you can still remain in Thailand but i would not be surprised if they deport you or terminate your visas etc.

[YouYouYou]

Well done Mr. Hippo and that's okay eh 2600 baht out of pocket and you have to be a real good boy for 2 years ....no getting into fights now LOL.

Mr. Hippo you enjoy your retirement and I'm so glad for you that it's over now. Once again, yer a stand up guy for sharing this story. Nice one.

Cheers You You You.

P.S : I did see that you ain't got yer passport back yet ...shouldn't be any more problems yeah? Surely if there was a question of deportation, they would have told you so on Thursday. Well I hope not, you will know in 2 days time, please reassure all.

Edited June 13, 2009 by YouYouYou

[bungy007]

[is this a joke post? Are you saying that people without degrees are criminals and those with are not? How does a degree in macrame make one a good teacher of English? It does not!

Mr Hippo, is that it all over now? What are the ramifications for your future? Does having a criminal record affect your continued stay here?

I hope to get my passport back on Monday and will know more then but I am hopeful that I can stay.

I wouldnt like my kids be taught by a convicted criminal no matter what the offense was,and i wouldnt think he has a chance of getting a teaching job again.

I know he has admitted to wrong doing but this worries me that there are many fake degrees about,and will reduce the quality of teaching in schools.All the ones sticking up for him,are you teachers and have you got fake degrees,as the OP seems to have been in touch with some of you.

So you prefer them to be taught by Mr X (a teacher I worked with)? He had a degree and had to be paid on a weekly basis because if he had his pay monthly, it would be gone in a few days on booze and women. Even when he was paid weekly, he came in smelling of booze and often fell asleep in class! What about the one who 'had' a degree on English and did not know what the verb 'to be' was nor the difference between an adjective and an adverb? The one who was banned from every shop and eating place within a one mile radius for making sexual remarks to teenagers? Need I go on?

Who have I been in touch with? Assumptions are dangerous things!

You mention 'quality of teaching', some schools seem to only want a warm white, degreed body and their knowledge of English is not tested.

Mr. Hippo. Good luck to you. You are spot on with your assessment of some of the dubious degree holders working in Thai schools. Not only are they less than able to conduct themselves as decent humans in a position of trust but many come over and just can't adjust or adapt themselves to the 'Thai ways' of doing things. For all of the education they have been exposed to, some degree holders have just gone through the motions and really have gained little from an experience meant to broaden their perspective on life - other than receive a piece of paper.

a 'teacher' is a position which is mostly a vocation. Thus it takes a certain personality and a depth of integrity/self discipline to do the job well. Though many may question your integrity, I don't. Integrity goes much deeper than living by Thai culture - which basically means saying 'yes' (telling porkies) whenever the situation demands it to get the desired result. 'When in Rome...' and all that! I'm sure you bought a lot of good education to your classes and that your students are all the better for having you as their teacher. Go forth with your head held high, Ajarn Hippo and enjoy your retirment