Why Do Single Farang Need To Show 65k?

[loong]

I read a thread recently about a married farang who found himself in the position of no longer qualifying for his 1 year extension.

His overseas pension used to be enough to satisfy the requirement of 40,000 Baht per month to qualify for the one year extension. The strong Baht has meant that his pension converts to less than the 40K.

I do wonder how the authorities arrive at these figures. It certainly seems ridiculous that a married man, supporting a family is deemed to be able to live on 40K per month, yet a single man needs 65K to qualify for the retirement extension. I've heard that 2 can live as cheaply as one, but that's BS.

As far as I know, the average wage in Thailand is about 10,000 Baht/month, many earn a lot less. So why does a foreigner have to show an income of so much more to be allowed to stay?

I could easily support myself and the family with 20,000 Baht per month (not that I'd want to be in the position)

I think that it is rather strange that this man cannot get the extension because his income is not high enough. His income is obviously sufficient to support himself and his family, he's managing it after all.

At the same time, he is allowed to stay if he wastes the time and money to go to Laos and get a tourist Visa. Maybe a total cost of 10,000 Baht.

So, it would seem that he is deemed not to have sufficient income if only 39,000 Baht/month, yet if he wastes 25% of his income to get a tourist visa in the month he travels, he can stay. So that month 39,000 Baht is not enough to live on with a marriage extension, but 29,000 Baht is enough to live on if he has a tourist visa.

Is it cheaper to stay in Thailand with a tourist visa than an extension?

If I remember rightly, when you arrive in Thailand with a visa allowing 90 days stay, the immigration officer is entitled to ask that you show proof of funds amounting to 20,000 Baht. In this case it would seem that they consider 20K baht is enough for a foreigner to stay 90 days. So why do you have to show so much more than this to get an extension?

Why do they think a single person needs 25K per month more than a family man?

I have posted this here as I think that it is more a general topic for discussion than Visa specific.

[Lancelot]

I too have wondered why a single retiree needs 65k a month but a married guy supporting a family needs a lesser amount. The longer I stay here, the less I understand the place

Edited June 13, 2009 by Lancelot

[Soutpeel]

I too have wondered why a single retiree needs 65k a month but a married guy supporting a family needs a lesser amount. The longer I stay here, the less I understand the place

Is the goverment not encouraging you to get married... .....The short fall on the cost of the "visa" will be made up for with the Sin Sot..???...if so smart cookies...

[Heng]

Because it's a regulation, not a contest.

An important point that folks overlook is that locals (in any country) have the *right* to residence. Foreigners do not. How the gov't arbitrarily applies the details doesn't have to adhere to anyone's sensibilities. One may as well flip it and praise the gov't for its charity towards married folks.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Heng

[Mario2008]

Well, if you are for example a Laotien, working in Thailand, you can stay if you earn 25,000 baht. You can have your wife and children staying here too.

As Heng pointed out, locals have the right to live in Thailand, foreigners not. You would have to draw a line regarding the income. It is my guess they look at several factors. The question if one has enough to live on is just one of them. One would also like people to contribute to the economy and so have money to spend and of course they want to regulate the number of foreigners living here. A higher income requirement will mean that less people qualify.

[Garry9999]

"Why Do Single Farang Need To Show 65k?, when Thai average wage 10K" because he/she is and foreigner.

"I think that it is rather strange that this man cannot get the extension because his income is not high enough" The whole Visa system in Thailand is strange.

Essentially, we are only welcome here if we are contributing to the Thai economy, at a much higher rate than the average Thai.

What would be the benefit to Thailand if low income Expats where to be allowed to live here?

[Absingjul]

They assume that single men need extra 25k for Singha and bar fines.

[Soutpeel]

They assume that single men need extra 25k for Singha and bar fines.

Good point...See.... the Thai goverment does look after farang interests...

[JR Texas]

I too have wondered why a single retiree needs 65k a month but a married guy supporting a family needs a lesser amount. The longer I stay here, the less I understand the place

It does not make any sense on the surface. A man supporting a wife and children too normally would need more money than a single male with no dependents.

Having said that, know that THEY are not just making life difficult for single men, they are also making life difficult for married men 50 plus.

Over the past ten years they have greatly raised both the income requirement and bank deposit requirement in order to get a marriage extension...........think both have about doubled.

Why? Obvious to me but you can come up with your own conclusions.

Actually, the 40K per month requirement is probably 4 times what the average Thai makes. It is also more than the average pension from Social Security that a retired American gets per month.

If my own country decided to treat Thais the same way, the Thai would have to make 4 times the average American salary per month: about US$128000 per month!

(Figures may not be totally correct here because I am not totally sure what the average salary is now and no time to Google it.......but you get the point........they would not be able to live in the USA because the they would never be able to earn that much money).

Personally I think the entire visa/immigration system needs to be scrapped and redone in a way that is simple to implement, easy to understand, and tourism/expat friendly.

There have been many times when I thought that the immigration officials themselves didn't understand the complicated system they must use. And it changes too frequently.........and it is not applied the same across the board.

Crazy system if you ask me. Did you ask?

[sanmiguellight]

Essentially, we are only welcome here if we are contributing to the Thai economy, at a much higher rate than the average Thai.

What would be the benefit to Thailand if low income Expats where to be allowed to live here?

A common sense immigration policy.

Pity the British government seems to think unlimited masses of poor, unskilled workers are good for our economy.

[imaneggspurt]

Do you really beleive this is an average ?. "As far as I know, the average wage in Thailand is about 10,000 Baht/month " ,,,apart from the issan workers these days have long gone, why do you think they have become so complacent ?. they have a lot more money than we think, they just dont brag about and dont mind living in a hammock in a tree,

[Birdman]

Well, if you are for example a Laotien, working in Thailand, you can stay if you earn 25,000 baht. You can have your wife and children staying here too.

As Heng pointed out, locals have the right to live in Thailand, foreigners not. You would have to draw a line regarding the income. It is my guess they look at several factors. The question if one has enough to live on is just one of them. One would also like people to contribute to the economy and so have money to spend and of course they want to regulate the number of foreigners living here. A higher income requirement will mean that less people qualify.

In the EU everybody has the right to live and work in each of the 27 countries without limitations. Sure the EU is light years away from SEA. But in the context here just an example, that very rich nations opened their borders to their poor neighbours.

[Lancelot]

I too have wondered why a single retiree needs 65k a month but a married guy supporting a family needs a lesser amount. The longer I stay here, the less I understand the place

Is the goverment not encouraging you to get married... .....The short fall on the cost of the "visa" will be made up for with the Sin Sot..???...if so smart cookies...

Why didn't I think of that Mr S; now I understand

[Pierrot]

As far as I know there is no proof of income or money in the bank needed to apply for a tourist visa. On this point, Thailand is more open than most western countries.

Now if you want to work, live or retire in Thailand, it's different. Thailand has an obligation to protect its citizen against foreigners who will either drain the resources of the country or take jobs that belongs to the local. Nothing wrong with that, it's the policy of every country in the world.

IMO visa runs are an aberration. Either you're a tourist and 3 month is already quite long for a holiday break, or you intend to settle and you should apply for the visa that is related to your purpose of stay. Now Thailand has to make clear who is welcome and who is not, and make the visa application easier for the formers and close the border for the latters.

[Lopburi99]

I absolutely think it because Immigration approves of farang marrying a Thai and is promoting this. They know 40,000 bt is adequate to support the family. I believe, however, they don't want as many single farang living here who haven't at least the higher financials, viewing them as as potentially problematic because they hadn't attained a secure enough standard of living back in their home country and may be, in a way, seeking a form of "refuge" in Thailand.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Lopburi99

[retiredusn]

dam_n,,,,,,,,,guess I have too tell it all..........The 65Kbt per month if married to a farang is good for both of the retirement extension visa's.......so..........Not really a bad deal

[MJo]

Great, another "why we can not live here forever and free" thread.

You guys seem to assume all Thai ladies married to farangs are 100% housewifes. For a fact i know mine is not, she is working and making well above 40k per month. That will total min 80k+ in my case so already more than retirement extension.

Also it is only fair that requirement is lower, that ways most if not all families can be together still ensuring the basic living standard is maintained. Also makes it bit more difficult and more hassle to use arranged marriages to gain entry to Thailand.

And for the rising requirements as stated in the other thread several times the answer is "inflation".

[lopburi3]

1. Retirement is an optional status so would normally be at a higher rate - it is 65k in Thailand married or single. There is no change for those married.

2. Marriage extension of stay is allowed with a lower 40k amount. You have made a commitment by marriage so the bar is lower. Seems reasonable - but anyone can say the amount is high/low and find justification for so saying. But there are alternatives.

3. Failing to meet the marriage requirement you can still obtain a one year multi entry non immigrant visa which only requires leaving briefly every 90 days. There is no reason to be using tourist visas. If you have employment you can also extend on that (which can be as low as 25k income).

4. Not all is ideal - but not all is pitch-black either.

[Lancelot]

I absolutely think it because Immigration approves of farang marrying a Thai and is promoting this. They know 40,000 bt is adequate to support the family.

It would appear that they are sending out that pricing signal (marriage reference.)

I love a bargain... Na, I'll gladly pony up the additional 25k to remain single

[JR Texas]

Do you really beleive this is an average ?. "As far as I know, the average wage in Thailand is about 10,000 Baht/month " ,,,apart from the issan workers these days have long gone, why do you think they have become so complacent ?. they have a lot more money than we think, they just dont brag about and dont mind living in a hammock in a tree,

It is very hard to say what the actual average wage is in Thailand. You can look it up and you will likely get several different estimates.

Remember there is likely a big difference in average earnings of a Thai living in Bangkok and a Thai living in the hinterlands.

Just ask some of them........find out what the taxi driver makes.........the cook in a restaurant.....the local banker. My guess is that the average income for average Thais....the bulk of the population.....is probably close to 10,000.

Whatever, we know most Thais are able to live off of a small amount each month.....especially those living in rural areas, the bulk of the 65 million plus population.

Some "farangs" can also live off of a small amount if they live in the hinterlands and adopt a Thai lifestyle. And some do.

Personally, I see no reason for any official income requirement at all. If the foreigner has no money he can't stay, simple as that.

Certainly if he is married the wife will tell him to take a hike (problem solved).

Lopburi's point about single men and the view of the govt. towards them is likely on target.

But, again, I do not see why the govt. should be involved in a social-engineering-farang-culling project based on income.

If you don't have enough money, you have to leave no matter what the govt. policy is.

And if security is the issue--especially with younger men--there are ways of dealing with that (e.g., a security clearance check paid for by the applicant). But TIT.

[MJo]

It is very hard to say what the actual average wage is in Thailand. You can look it up and you will likely get several different estimates.

Remember there is likely a big difference in average earnings of a Thai living in Bangkok and a Thai living in the hinterlands.

Just ask some of them........find out what the taxi driver makes.........the cook in a restaurant.....the local banker. My guess is that the average income for average Thais....the bulk of the population.....is probably close to 10,000.

Whatever, we know most Thais are able to live off of a small amount each month.....especially those living in rural areas, the bulk of the 65 million plus population.

Some "farangs" can also live off of a small amount if they live in the hinterlands and adopt a Thai lifestyle. And some do.

Personally, I see no reason for any official income requirement at all. If the foreigner has no money he can't stay, simple as that.

Certainly if he is married the wife will tell him to take a hike (problem solved).

Lopburi's point about single men and the view of the govt. towards them is likely on target.

But, again, I do not see why the govt. should be involved in a social-engineering-farang-culling project based on income.

If you don't have enough money, you have to leave no matter what the govt. policy is.

And if security is the issue--especially with younger men--there are ways of dealing with that (e.g., a security clearance check paid for by the applicant). But TIT.

You can already see farangs living and begging in the streets time to time. Usually they are begging money to get some cash to be able to leave.

To remove the income requirements it will result more and more of these cases and who then is responsible to finance their deportation / tickets back home ? Thai government or US, UK, <insert country> taxpayers ?

Not exactly the paradise tourist destination they want to promote when there is few fellow countrymen begging in each street corner...

[sassienie]

Well, if you are for example a Laotien, working in Thailand, you can stay if you earn 25,000 baht. You can have your wife and children staying here too.

As Heng pointed out, locals have the right to live in Thailand, foreigners not. You would have to draw a line regarding the income. It is my guess they look at several factors. The question if one has enough to live on is just one of them. One would also like people to contribute to the economy and so have money to spend and of course they want to regulate the number of foreigners living here. A higher income requirement will mean that less people qualify.

Correct.

Thailand lets us stay for a pay back.

If foreigners move to Thailand without proper financial planning and believe that bank interest rates, exchange rates will not decrease or that Immigration will not increase the Visa stake in the future are fools.

Thailand is not a charity for Westerners who cannot hack it in their home countries.

Better to stay poor in your own countries than become a burden to yourselves and others in Thailand.

[Soutpeel]

Whatever, we know most Thais are able to live off of a small amount each month.....especially those living in rural areas, the bulk of the 65 million plus population.

Think that is a very misleading statement, as look at the amount of debt and average Thai runs up, credit cards, pawning things when the new school term starts, loan sharks etc etc...It apparant to me that most Thai's cant live off a small amount each month....

[PattayaParent]

I too have wondered why a single retiree needs 65k a month but a married guy supporting a family needs a lesser amount. The longer I stay here, the less I understand the place

They assume that a single man has more bar fines and ST to pay than a married man?

[Ricardo]

They assume that single men need extra 25k for Singha and bar fines.

Surely because single-men have to support more sick-buffalos than we married-men ?

[PattayaParent]

Now if you want to work, live or retire in Thailand, it's different. Thailand has an obligation to protect its citizen against foreigners who will either drain the resources of the country or take jobs that belongs to the local. Nothing wrong with that, it's the policy of every country in the world.

What resources of the country are foreigners draining by being retired?

Also there are restricted employment opportunities so that foreigners cannot take jobs that belong to a local.

[JR Texas]

Whatever, we know most Thais are able to live off of a small amount each month.....especially those living in rural areas, the bulk of the 65 million plus population.

Think that is a very misleading statement, as look at the amount of debt and average Thai runs up, credit cards, pawning things when the new school term starts, loan sharks etc etc...It apparant to me that most Thai's cant live off a small amount each month....

You are right......way too many Thais, like Americans and other Westerners, run up debts and do a lot of "jamnam" (pawning). And as you no doubt know there is also an informal banking system, especially in the rural areas. Friends borrowing money and loaning money.

In my own small world most of the families would be happy to make 5000 baht per month. Somehow they manage. Many times the local "farang" ends up being an informal banker. Some of us know how that goes.

Sometimes the govt. steps in to help like they did this year, paying all the utilities (think they paid them for 7 months or so). When you live in a tin shack and have no utilities to pay and eat SomTom each day, you don't spend a lot of money.

Surely you will agree that Thais can live off of much less money than most Westerners. Why? Because we are spoiled rotten and need things Thais don't need or can do without.

That, in itself, might be one reason to force expats or single men to show a certain income above the average Thai income.......but I think the goal posts are raised too high now and should be lowered or eliminated altogether.

I do not see hoards of foreigners begging in the streets. Is that normal where you live? In 23 years of living here, I have only seen one farang begging.......a young alcoholic living on the beach in Jomtien. And one day he just vanished.

I do not think for a moment that, if the govt. eliminated the income requirements, hoards of foreigners would be begging on the streets of Thailand. I think many would stay......and those that could not afford to live here would be forced to leave.

Others might have to go to their local embassies to get a ticket home. But I don't think it would be a disaster and the positives would likely outweigh the negatives.

[Dakhar]

Great, another "why we can not live here forever and free" thread.

You guys seem to assume all Thai ladies married to farangs are 100% housewifes. For a fact i know mine is not, she is working and making well above 40k per month. That will total min 80k+ in my case so already more than retirement extension.

Also it is only fair that requirement is lower, that ways most if not all families can be together still ensuring the basic living standard is maintained. Also makes it bit more difficult and more hassle to use arranged marriages to gain entry to Thailand.

And for the rising requirements as stated in the other thread several times the answer is "inflation".

Keny Rogers sang a song about that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZYcqlEZxGQ

[MJo]

Keny Rogers sang a song about that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZYcqlEZxGQ

Is this the same guy who makes nice roast chicken with mash ?

Edited June 13, 2009 by MJo

[JR Texas]

Great, another "why we can not live here forever and free" thread.

You guys seem to assume all Thai ladies married to farangs are 100% housewifes. For a fact i know mine is not, she is working and making well above 40k per month. That will total min 80k+ in my case so already more than retirement extension.

Also it is only fair that requirement is lower, that ways most if not all families can be together still ensuring the basic living standard is maintained. Also makes it bit more difficult and more hassle to use arranged marriages to gain entry to Thailand.

And for the rising requirements as stated in the other thread several times the answer is "inflation".

Keny Rogers sang a song about that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZYcqlEZxGQ

Looking above I see Mjo said something about "inflation" as the explanation for the rise in the visa bar. No, I don't think so. Just one example, over the past ten years the visa bar for extension on marriage doubled......inflation did not. Neither did the average pension that an American retiree gets per month. The inflation argument does not compute and is a smokescreen to shift out attention away from the real reason for the increases. Many of us know what those reasons are and they have nothing to do with inflation or security.