Past Present And Future--comparative Between

[bina]

a long rambling thinking out loud post:

having followed nampeung's death and dying thread in 'ladies', i was discussing the way i saw rural thais dealing with illness, even ordinary illness among children, terminal among some older people, old people, injury, etc.

compared to israeli actions, the thais are the most non hysterical people i have ever met. people here mention all the time the non 'safe' way of child rearing, work etc.

in israel, even a mild illness has both parents on line, at the doctors, asking friends: in general, everyone running in circles around a child that has the common cold. we are a nation of hypychondriacs. we have four years of sleepless nights while our children are in the army in active front line or office duty. we love nothing better then memorial day, holocaust day, 30 day anniversery of someone who died, yearly anniversary of someone who died. we love sad, 'crying' songs about soldiers dying and leaving behind a pregnant wife, a small child, a girl he just met. the radio is full of them. especially on memorial days. naming a child is a heavy duty mission especially if u have relatives who died in the holocaust or killed in action. we are a regular culture of death. i hate it. our children, from day one, automatically know how to be sad on war memorial days. they know to wear a white shirt, light a candle, quote poems, go to the graveyards for evening memorial rites and prayers. its automatic. my kids feel insulted if i dont join them on these days when all the kibbutz, no matter how ill, incapacitated or whatever, goes up to our graveyard for 'remembering'-- holocuast, war, those that died prematurely and those that died elderly, those with family and those without are given the same attention. an all israelis are pretty much the same, regardless if they are of morrocan yemenite, german or polish ancestry. the cult of death.

relatives that died are remembered in books, photos, candles, memorial days, and everyday discussions. names and the 'never forget' statement are integeral parts of our daily life.

in thailand while visiting, i asked my MIL about her siblings: names, etc. as i was (typical israeli that i am) trying to do a family tree. HA!. she said they are all dead and cant remember names, and why was i even bothering since they are dead. i found out that she had had three children die in early infancy including ! a twin brother to my husband, whom he hadnt even known about. all the grandkids had never ever heard about this and werent curious either as i pressed a bit about details. she didnt seem at all upset about it, just regretful that they too, didnt live long enough to give more grandkids. if u asked an israeli woman about this, everyone would be in tears, mournful, everyone would be circling the woman, hugging whatever.

my MIL broke her arm, was hospitalized and the entire family came to party it up (ok, similar to israelis 20 yd ago), but while there, i noticed several patients obviously dying with family around. no wailing. no pulling of hair. no screaming at doctors to do something, anything. and most of all, no kibbitzers hovering around (in israel strangers come to funerals to give 'support' to others in the same predicament!!funereal, no?)

a friend of my husband got stung by a scorpion while we were on a overnight camping trip. apart from her waking him to get the scorpion out of the bed, she asked for some yaa mueng and that was that. had it been israelis, we would all have been taking turns to sit by her to see she didnt stop breathing, someone would be phoning EMS, someone else would be calling friends to relate the news...

same same when one of the kids came down with a flue/stomach thing. she was dehydrating so i was hovering around trying to get her to drink the rehydration fluids, checking her temp, etc. the other adults including her mother (and no, her mother is functional and good for an uneducated woman who doesnt read parent magazine) kept asking me if i was 'worried' . of course i was worried. just like when the kids lit candles and put them all over the house during a power outage. a 3 yr old with matches!. but he knew how to light the candle and blow out the match. if it were in my house , we would have had all the adults screaming at the kids about the dangers, the kid punished, and the fire squad probably called just in case. (well slight but not entirely so, exageration).

since i am very laid back compared to israelis, i was able to deal, had it been my friends, they would have been nervous wrecks. my husband often asks, after i get 'hysterical' (and i am very very low keyed and non emotional and i have asthmatic kids in camp, in army whatever) , 'grua dtai mai?" (afraid of dying/death?). and when people die in car accidents, or from dehydration in the desert or falling off a cliff, he basically says 'they made their bed, let them lie in it now'.

i discuss this often with people who work with me while we peel potatoes and stuff: for them it is unfathomable to not know relatives' names, not constantly be in a state of worry about one person or an other... to them its not natural. i actually like it. i think my 15 yr old IS responsible for taking her own medication or she suffers the consequences. i cant take it for her. i cant force her to swallow it. she is the asthmatic , not me. one day she will be in the army and i wont be there to help her. she has to help herself. to many israelis, that seems harsh. to anon, he thinks we spoil our kids and people in general. so what if u are sick? go to sleep take your pills and stop complaining. thats his response and the response i saw very frequently in thailand in the rural and small city areas that i was in.

ideas anyone? i do think it si budhist related to how we perceive our lives and how we deal?

bina

israel

[PeaceBlondie]

bina, your Israeli kibbutznik friends sound like characters in a Woody Allen movie, while the Thais resemble Alfred E Neumann ("What? Me worry?).

[bina]

that was the pithiest answer i've ever seen :D

but u know what i mean; and its not just kibbutzniks. its everyone. everywhere. people here freak out . u didnt reach your kid on the cell phone for two hours?!!! everybody is getting an sms to see if maybe something happened. and yes stuff does happen here (and folks think thailand is dangerous, HA!!) often, and bad. but even my new york jewish woody allen prototype parents dont come close to the 'enjoying the sad morbid movies and songs /death culture'.

most thais are not strict religious budhists obviously, however the way of seeing things, dealing with things, must be affected as the culture IS affected by budhism just like the states, whether people will admit it or not, is a fairly 'christian' environment in its outlook on life (god country morality whatever). and muslem countries are influenced by islam even if the people arent strict muslems (like the majority of the arab guys that i know, anti religious, but some aspects of islam just show up in their everyday way of dealing with life)...

i know im just rambling really, its saturday so letting the mind wander and not think about spinach quiche and 200 hungry guests... but it seems that even if people arent actively buddhist, the society IS influenced by buddhism. or is this obvious and old news? i know that people complain about the 'white lie' aspect of thai life, to me that doesnt bother me at all... that does seem to be a sort of jewish/christian hangup (tell the truth and nothing but the truth) ...

whatever,

bina

israel

[phetaroi]

most thais are not strict religious budhists obviously, however the way of seeing things, dealing with things, must be affected as the culture IS affected by budhism just like the states, whether people will admit it or not, is a fairly 'christian' environment in its outlook on life (god country morality whatever). and muslem countries are influenced by islam even if the people arent strict muslems (like the majority of the arab guys that i know, anti religious, but some aspects of islam just show up in their everyday way of dealing with life)...

i know im just rambling really, its saturday so letting the mind wander and not think about spinach quiche and 200 hungry guests... but it seems that even if people arent actively buddhist, the society IS influenced by buddhism. or is this obvious and old news? i know that people complain about the 'white lie' aspect of thai life, to me that doesnt bother me at all... that does seem to be a sort of jewish/christian hangup (tell the truth and nothing but the truth) ...

bina

israel

Yes, old news...but so what? Not much new under the sun. I liked your thoughts and they got me thinking about a few things. You know, I am sort of adopted (so to speak) by two families...one is Muslim in the U.S., the other is Thai here in Thailand. Interesting to see family life up so close and notice differences, as you put it, not just in regard to religion, but also in regard to life in general, but based on certain religious factors (not sure that explanation came out too well).

Although this is not about religion exactly, the whole mai pben rai thing is quite interesting. In the past -- looking at so many people with amputations from industrial accidents, for example -- it seemed like too much mai pben rai influenced too much of Thai life. Now, at least in Thai politics and government, it seems like mai pben rai has disappeared completely. Where is the balance? I wonder if this, too, is pervading Thai everyday life? And is there a religious basis for mai pben rai?

How's that for rambling on a Sunday morning?

[camerata]

ideas anyone? i do think it si budhist related to how we perceive our lives and how we deal?

I think Buddhism does affect the Thai way of dealing with life in that they are more willing to accept life's events just as they are and less likely than us farang to start asking "Why me?" or "Could I have prevented this?" On the other hand I think popular Buddhism makes them far too fatalistic - everything is predestined by past karma so there is nothing we can do about it.

Another point is that Thais tend to live very much in the present. From what I've read, this is also the case in animist hilltribes in the region too, so it isn't necessarily a Buddhist thing.

[agent69]

The "ไม่เป็นไร" concept might have been a Buddhist concept been taken into wrong practice or believe.

Buddhism has taught me that things that happen to me, good or bad, are well within my control. It matters when something happens but, as a buddhist, I should not make it a big deal or attach myself to the result of what just happened. Instead, I should spend most of the time contemplating on why things turned out like that. To learn, so that I will be wiser. And, maybe, I will be able to control my 'destiny'.

[phetaroi]

Buddhism has taught me that things that happen to me, good or bad, are well within my control. It matters when something happens but, as a buddhist, I should not make it a big deal or attach myself to the result of what just happened. Instead, I should spend most of the time contemplating on why things turned out like that. To learn, so that I will be wiser. And, maybe, I will be able to control my 'destiny'.

Not all things are within our control. To give a really big example, the tsunami that hit the Andaman Sea's coast. But yes, there are some things that -- to one degree or another -- are within our control, or at least influence.

There is a balance needed here. For many years I had mixed feelings about "mai pben rai". On the one hand, there are so many things that really are "mai pben rai" in importance. On the other hand, once when talking with a beggar on the street with no arms he told me it was from an industrial accident, and then said, "Mai pben rai." Thai society sometimes says "mai pben rai" way too easily, and that may very well be related to Buddhist concepts (whether popular Buddhism or actual Buddhism, I'm not at all sure).

[agent69]

Not all things are within our control. To give a really big example, the tsunami that hit the Andaman Sea's coast. But yes, there are some things that -- to one degree or another -- are within our control, or at least influence.

I beg the differ. General wisdom would probably tell us to learn about the characteristics of tsunami before we're going to a beach. When we see water being pulled away from the beach, it's time to run to a higher ground. Sounds pressimistic but I believe that what a wise person would do before venture to the unknown.

But if we are not wise enough to learn about our surrounding before being there, or we underestimated the situation, then we could say "shit happens". I think that the closest English expression to "mai pen rai".

There is a balance needed here. For many years I had mixed feelings about "mai pben rai". On the one hand, there are so many things that really are "mai pben rai" in importance. On the other hand, once when talking with a beggar on the street with no arms he told me it was from an industrial accident, and then said, "Mai pben rai." Thai society sometimes says "mai pben rai" way too easily, and that may very well be related to Buddhist concepts (whether popular Buddhism or actual Buddhism, I'm not at all sure).

partly Buddhist influences and partly caste system inheritance, I believe. You are talking about work safety in a country where the working class would have had no chance against their employers. And lets not mention the level of corruption.

[phetaroi]

I beg the differ. General wisdom would probably tell us to learn about the characteristics of tsunami before we're going to a beach. When we see water being pulled away from the beach, it's time to run to a higher ground. Sounds pressimistic but I believe that what a wise person would do before venture to the unknown.

Going to the beach is hardly "the unknown", and keep in mind that recursion rates for tsunamis in the Indian Ocean are well over 100 years. It's hardly like I was planning on going to Florida in August and was then surprised there was a hurricane.

partly Buddhist influences and partly caste system inheritance, I believe. You are talking about work safety in a country where the working class would have had no chance against their employers. And lets not mention the level of corruption.

If anything, the lack of work safety in Thailand is probably partly promulgated by the mai pben rai attitude. And I doubt very much that if I told you we were going to amputate both of your arms or both of your legs that you would simply say, "Mai pben rai."

[bina]

phetaroi, thats sort of what i was thinking about. as i actually was a safety and hygiene manager for 7 yrs in our glass factory, teaching israelis safety was almost impossible which is one of the reasons i left the job. but in our case its the 'i've made it thru worse stuff so i can deal with whatever happens here also' attitude (a sort of enjoying the risk attitude, and a 'it will be ok' attitude). this attitude started from the obvious difficult beginnings of this country, where quick thinking, quick reactions, an ability to improvise and take risk were and still are very installed in our national mind think. as an american i found it nerve wracking to deal with the contact between people and glass sheets with this mindset pervading the work floor.

the thai version isnt the risk taking, deal when the time comes attitude. they dont actually take risks that others wouldnt take. they just do what needs to be done, regardless of the risk. its a subtle difference in perspective. an israeli usually will assess the risk, and do it anyway. i never actually see most thai (and i see thousands working all over here) proactively taking a risk. if something to them seems risky, they usually refuse. (monsoon rains and working in the fields while there is lightening, to my thai inlaws seemed a high risk event so we all went home until the storm stopped.) i rarely see a thai actively going for jumping out of airplanes, free climbing walls and other 'challenge sports/extreme sports'. to the thais that i speak to, they feel that that is only for people who have an active death wish; someone who seeks to fall, break their neck, drown or whatever, and MOST IMPORTANT when it does happen: som naam na. they made their bed, now they lay in it. (or like camerata's buddhist joke about the sandwich).

oth, since most thai i know (agricultural, lacking education, and i assume, maybe wrongly that also educated thai) for the most part arent interested / dont look at statistics (five out of seven accidents occur when not wearing a helmet- or whatever). to them its meaningless. to them, either an accident will or wont happen. prevention might work. it might not.

this might also explain why gambling on anything is so popular. its really the lack of control over your surroundings. they differentiate between things that will probably happen to a person, and things that u actively seek to make happen.

every time someone dies here in the desert, it just reiterates my husband's view that people should stay at home and do normal things, since even if u do normal things, bad things might happen anyway and u cant control that, but by going hiking, its obvious that u will end up dead from dehydration.

that may explain why when we went ot on a boat with national park patrol friends in korat, we ran out of namaan in the middle of the river, since no one took in to account that we would have to stop and start more then planned due to monsoon rains (which seem to occurr at the same times everyday so a little planning....) but no one got really upset since the shore was fairly close and ........./ going out fishing on a boat to them wasnt a risk taking activity, it was daily use and shit happens.

anytime i've invited thai friends to go horseback riding (to me, another way of getting around in a hike, not the same as doing jumps or whatever), they'e preferred to sit out on the side. to them it was a risk. (why would anyone pay money to sit on a moving unpredictable tall animal just for fun). it took two hours of persuasion to persuade hubby to get on a camel. but climbing up to a roof top without harness, to fix a leak, thats perfectly normal.

when i ask my husband what happens if he falls he usually says he wont but if he does then: mai bpen rai; grua dtai mai? (u afraid of death??).

bina

israel

[agent69]

I beg the differ. General wisdom would probably tell us to learn about the characteristics of tsunami before we're going to a beach. When we see water being pulled away from the beach, it's time to run to a higher ground. Sounds pressimistic but I believe that what a wise person would do before venture to the unknown.

Going to the beach is hardly "the unknown", and keep in mind that recursion rates for tsunamis in the Indian Ocean are well over 100 years. It's hardly like I was planning on going to Florida in August and was then surprised there was a hurricane.

Hence the reason I mentioned that it might sound pessimistic. But knowing that there was a chance (even a slim one) of something that might happen and failed to learn the preventative or defensive actions would just be ignorance. At least, one would have saved oneself ... if not others.

partly Buddhist influences and partly caste system inheritance, I believe. You are talking about work safety in a country where the working class would have had no chance against their employers. And lets not mention the level of corruption.

If anything, the lack of work safety in Thailand is probably partly promulgated by the mai pben rai attitude. And I doubt very much that if I told you we were going to amputate both of your arms or both of your legs that you would simply say, "Mai pben rai."

I doubt that I would even get into that situation due to my work. Thing is I would have done something if I had the feeling that work might not be safe or I would have crushed a limb. If the boss would not do anything about my worry, he is not worth my service anyway.

When people do not realise that they have the control of their fate, they start to accept the outcomes. And the work "mai pben rai" seems to make more and more sense.

I was born and raised in Thailand. Due to the circumstances, I grew up with less Thai bringing-up influences than the other Thai. Had a lot of time to see the unfairness and corruption that happened (and still happening) in Thailand and was not really a part of it. Now I live in Australia. I have also seen the put-you-head-down-and-accept-the-consequence attitude here as well. So I guess it's not just the Thai. When people feel powerless, it easier to accept "mai pben rai".

On the remotely related note, I have seen this show Catalyst on Australian's ABC. They were interviewing the English professor who has researched the science of luck. Very interesting for someone who wonders why they are so unlucky. Here is the transcript, http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/2220191.htm

[agent69]

when i ask my husband what happens if he falls he usually says he wont but if he does then: mai bpen rai; grua dtai mai? (u afraid of death??).

If he's a Thai, next time when he said that, just say, "Not afraid you'd die. But I couldn't be bothered feeding you boiled rice if you didn't". Sounds a bit funnier if you could say it in Thai though.

ตายน่ะไม่กลัวหลอก ขี้เกียจไปนั่งหยอดข้าวต้ม

He would probably laugh at it.

[rockyysdt]

Hence the reason I mentioned that it might sound pessimistic. But knowing that there was a chance (even a slim one) of something that might happen and failed to learn the preventative or defensive actions would just be ignorance. At least, one would have saved oneself ... if not others.

Hi agent.

I thought our entire life is a risk.

Leaving your home is a risk.

Even slipping & hitting your head on the corner of your kitchen benchtop is a risk, but we don't wear helmets when cooking.

When one has a string of bad luck &/or eperience a series of accidents or incidences, one can lose their confidence and become withdrawn, but life is for living with all its inherent risks.

If you go to extreme lengths to prevent injury, then you'd probably wear a helmet, fire retardent clothing, gloves, & protective boots when driving your car, or perhaps avoid being anywhere near a road. When flying in aircraft you'd probably include dressing in anti radiation clothing to protect yourself from the suns deadly gamma rays experienced at high altitudes.

Generally we don't do these things as we automatically calculate the risks involved & proceed.

Perhaps achieving enlightenment is more probable than dieing in a tsunami.

Edited June 16, 2009 by rockyysdt

[agent69]

I sounded pessimistic, didn't I?

But all this awareness of our surrounding will come to us when we have reached a certain level of meditation. And it is not being pessimistic, more like well prepared and the awareness of the surrounding danger. Now that sounds a bit more positive. We are all caught up to the outcomes of events and usually fail to think about how we were put into that situation. Things that could not be explain with our limited intuition are described as fate, luck and randomness.

[oldsparrow]

when i ask my husband what happens if he falls he usually says he wont but if he does then: mai bpen rai; grua dtai mai? (u afraid of death??).

If he's a Thai, next time when he said that, just say, "Not afraid you'd die. But I couldn't be bothered feeding you boiled rice if you didn't". Sounds a bit funnier if you could say it in Thai though. ตายน่ะไม่กลัวหลอก ขี้เกียจไปนั่งหยอดข้าวต้ม He would probably laugh at it.

ตายน่ะไม่กลัวหรอก ครับ

Do you read ชวนม่วนชื่น it's a great book, a Buddhism book of more than 140,000 copies printed ! You can google it and the publisher even provide on line reading.

[bina]

sorry, i cant read thai as of yet (working on it) and anon cant be bothered in evening to help me in internet stuff so can u transliterate what was written and translate...

bina

israel

[oldsparrow]

On the first line I correct Agent69 sentence that he should use alphabet ร instead of ล. It's agood light talk he mentioned when you say "No, the death doesn't bother me but I don't like idea of (being unable) and fed soft boil rice bit by bit."

On the second linerecommend a Buddhist book "Open the door of your heart" or ชวนม่วนชื่น in Thai print (not the translated name) written by English Buddhist Monk who is now a abbot in Perth, Aus.

I like this buddhist book most, easy story, no difficult jargons. I am a (far from religion) Thai but it's always too hard for me to read other Buddhist books of difficult writing even though it's in Thai language.

[agent69]

thanks oldsparrow for the spelling correction. my Thai is a little rusty. Can't really say it was good though. I was the only one in the class who failed the Thai class. LOL don't tell the folks in the Thai Language forum though.

and thanks for recommendation of the book too. I have found a PDF version on the net. Will have a read later.

Yeh bina, as oldsparrow said before, in Thai they used to have light-hearted joke when people taking unnecessary risk for the fear that they would get hurt. But instead of being serious (perhaps like your Israeli folks) we just laugh at it. "you hurt youself but its my trouble to feed you", that sort of thing.

[oldsparrow]

You're welcome krub agent69. I think you actually are very good at Thai and can apply words to serveral situation as you understanding its core meaning/sense.

To this thread:

As I understand it. The Buddhism in Thailand stress on the concept of Karma (กรรม = deed) Cause and Effect. What you do will come back to you, even in th next life if not in this one. So it's the answer to the bad effect that is not your fault, may be the last life's karma is catching up. suffering in life is the paying back of bad Karma Good merit is Boon that carry you to good situation.

You reborn to the suffering or happiness because the account of you karma is still paying out. THe ultimate goal is the account closing. You pay all the debt then you don't reborn again. I am not sure how they place the good deed in this finality? Don't think it teachs that you should not also do more good deed for it put you on this world again or you may be born in heaven instead? The religion belief is mix of pure Buddhism and traditional belief plus Hindu..

Anyway in summary when people pass away we say the one had no more หมดเวรกรรม/หมดเวร หมดกรรม (no more debt tp pay in this life) or สิ้นบุญ (no more Boon to enjoy in this life). Obviuosly, หมดเวรกรรม/หมดเวร หมดกรรม is used more for person with hard life while สิ้นบุญ is used for people with happier life.

The words can also be expressed differently for certain purpose.

ie. Even when a happy person died we may say he is หมดเวรกรรม to suggest that at least he is now free of any chance of suffering in life.

In practice, สิ้นบุญ is common to be used for the pass away of person with high status/responsibility who look after may other people/big enterprise.

ie. The great chairman is now สิ้นบุญ, how can we run the company?

[oldsparrow]

why we make joke on serious matters?

Thais people have different way to counter stressful/serious situation. We show no worry attitude or express a joke if possible.

Not because we feel EVERYTHING is not to be concerned seriously but to CHEER UP the feeling. DO NOT put more worriness stress into the situation.

This is the main point of mis understanding between westerner and Thais

ie.

You have a sore arm and band it to work and talk about it. The typical westerner may show sad face, say with worry voice "I am sorry to see this."How bad it is?" etc. The typical Thai may say with a smile "OK, at least you have another good arm."

Both see that the situation is bad.

The westerners try put himself INTO IT and show that he SHARE the situation. They take note of the suffering and show that they understand how bad it is.

The Thais show the brighter side of the situaion and LEAD the victim to it. Well, we have no magic to spell the pain away from his arm, he has done all he could do, why stress it's existance to him MORE.

This is why many westerners think that so many Thais have bad grin, bad smile and love to laugh at unfortunate foreigners...

And this is why I started with icon for I am a Thai

[bina]

old sparrow, thank you. i think u expressed very well the differences and our ways of dealing with 'bad' things. i will steal your last few sentences the next time i have to explain something to friends of mine and thai situations that arise.

bina

israel

glad to get some thai perspective on things and the specific thai phrases that fit the actions/feelings.

[khaowong1]

You're welcome krub agent69. I think you actually are very good at Thai and can apply words to serveral situation as you understanding its core meaning/sense.

To this thread:

As I understand it. The Buddhism in Thailand stress on the concept of Karma (กรรม = deed) Cause and Effect. What you do will come back to you, even in th next life if not in this one. So it's the answer to the bad effect that is not your fault, may be the last life's karma is catching up. suffering in life is the paying back of bad Karma Good merit is Boon that carry you to good situation.

You reborn to the suffering or happiness because the account of you karma is still paying out. THe ultimate goal is the account closing. You pay all the debt then you don't reborn again. I am not sure how they place the good deed in this finality? Don't think it teachs that you should not also do more good deed for it put you on this world again or you may be born in heaven instead? The religion belief is mix of pure Buddhism and traditional belief plus Hindu..

Anyway in summary when people pass away we say the one had no more หมดเวรกรรม/หมดเวร หมดกรรม (no more debt tp pay in this life) or สิ้นบุญ (no more Boon to enjoy in this life). Obviuosly, หมดเวรกรรม/หมดเวร หมดกรรม is used more for person with hard life while สิ้นบุญ is used for people with happier life.

The words can also be expressed differently for certain purpose.

ie. Even when a happy person died we may say he is หมดเวรกรรม to suggest that at least he is now free of any chance of suffering in life.

In practice, สิ้นบุญ is common to be used for the pass away of person with high status/responsibility who look after may other people/big enterprise.

ie. The great chairman is now สิ้นบุญ, how can we run the company?

thanks old sparrow... I like that phrase, "no more debt to pay in this life".. I am a practicing Buddhist, and even going to ordain for Khao Phansaa.. I am an American, and death for most Christians there is very traumatic.. I'm thinking that a phrase like that would even be understood there... maybe not... metta

[oldsparrow]

You're all welcome krub. Best wish for your peaceful life attempts.

Other words for passing away situation

- เขาไปสบายแล้ว = ็ำHe has gone peaceful/happy/SABAI (สบาย) way.

- ไปสู่ที่ชอบที่ชอบ = Go to where he perfer. This phase is used literally in monk chanting but in daily speaking language it's the way to express dislike of the dead person. Something like: Now he is dead, he can do what he like/ he now can go to where suite him most (heaven or hel_l).

[Shotime]

Jews are notorious crepe-hangers.

There's an old Mel Brooks joke that goes like this: "If I see someone fall in a manhole and die, I'm hysterical. If I cut my finger, I check into Einstein Medical Center."

It's one reason they've survived over 5,000 years of persecution.

Did you know the Jews were the Pirates of the Caribbean? and that, eventually, they brought the Spanish Empire down?

[Shotime]

ideas anyone? i do think it si budhist related to how we perceive our lives and how we deal?

I think Buddhism does affect the Thai way of dealing with life in that they are more willing to accept life's events just as they are and less likely than us farang to start asking "Why me?" or "Could I have prevented this?" On the other hand I think popular Buddhism makes them far too fatalistic - everything is predestined by past karma so there is nothing we can do about it.

Another point is that Thais tend to live very much in the present. From what I've read, this is also the case in animist hilltribes in the region too, so it isn't necessarily a Buddhist thing.

I may be getting in over my head here, but I think we can do something about what is predestined. What matters is how we react to what is what. I just heard this, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, and three times (no thrice) is significant. Not sure if that's Buddhist thought or not, but it makes sense to me. I'm not sure that Buddhism is fatalistic in the sense that death isn't part of life.

[camerata]

I just heard this, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, and three times (no thrice) is significant. Not sure if that's Buddhist thought or not, but it makes sense to me.

Makes sense how? If you flip a coin all day it's sure to come up heads three times in a row at some point. That's just probability. It only seems significant if we are not expecting it. But it isn't really part of Buddhist thought (unless you believe in "karmic bonds"). The idea behind karma is that in the present moment you can change your future by your actions. In that sense, right now your whole future is not predetermined, although you certainly can't control your whole future.

[Shotime]

That's what I said. Only I wasn't talking about flipping coins or probability. There are signs shown us everyday if we care to look. Everything that happens is for a reason. Things are put in our path purposely. I do not believe in luck or coincidence, and i do not believe that we are living on a rock that is hurtling through the void with no rhyme or reason. What we do with these "messages" is up to us. Some are unaware or blind to them, and disregard them. There are "messages" all around us if we care to look, and don't impose our own insanity on what's being shown us. I've learned to disregard the messenger's own insanity.

I understand what you mean by "in the present moment you can change your future by your actions?" Of course you can. What do you mean by "future?" As far as Karma, I get away with nothing.

"In that sense, right now your whole future is not predetermined, although you certainly can't control your whole future." This seems a little contradictory to me.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Shotime

[camerata]

That's what I said. Only I wasn't talking about flipping coins or probability. There are signs shown us everyday if we care to look. Everything that happens is for a reason. Things are put in our path purposely. I do not believe in luck or coincidence, and i do not believe that we are living on a rock that is hurtling through the void with no rhyme or reason. What we do with these "messages" is up to us. Some are unaware or blind to them, and disregard them. There are "messages" all around us if we care to look, and don't impose our own insanity on what's being shown us. I've learned to disregard the messenger's own insanity.

So what do you believe is the reason for these signs and who/what is behind them? Are you talking in terms of Buddhism/karma, God, synchronicity, or something else?

I understand what you mean by "in the present moment you can change your future by your actions?" Of course you can. What do you mean by "future?" As far as Karma, I get away with nothing.

"In that sense, right now your whole future is not predetermined, although you certainly can't control your whole future." This seems a little contradictory to me.

I'm just referring to the Buddhist idea of karma here. You can't control your whole future because past karma determines some of your future. And "future" to a Buddhist includes future lives.

[oldsparrow]

ฺีBuddhism teach that you have to pay/enjoy ALL bad and good karma. Pay for everything, enjoy everything, you can't settle/offset the account.

In my understanding it's like cocktail. You have liquid and solid substance. You have to consume all. But if you have too much of bad thing and put more of good thing when you drink it there is higher possibility that the good coming out

[agent69]

In my understanding it's like cocktail. You have liquid and solid substance. You have to consume all. But if you have too much of bad thing and put more of good thing when you drink it there is higher possibility that the good coming out

as long as it's non-alcoholic. hahaha