Political Parallels Between Iran And Thailand

[deprogrammed]

Is this true all over the world? The powerful and rich try and will still election using force, money or media

Well yes but I don't think every country is so radically divided into two clear factions, and I don't think every country is seething with the potential of a revolution.

I reckon the greens in Iran figure that their hopes were stolen so the question is do they have the patience to wait four more years to watch it get stolen AGAIN? I would bet they won't have that patience. Similarly to Thailand, the red faction will not wait for years to push their agenda forcefully again.

Look a bit closer to home - didn' Bush steal the election fron the othere halfwit - Gore

[hammered]

One difference is that in Iran the demonstrations are far bigger and also more widespread and seem to be close to reaching the point where at least some rapid backpeddling by those in power is starting to happen: the results being final and must be accepted has morphed into provisional and must be investigated. The demos could also reach a size when change could be forced although that remians to be seen. The attacks on the demonstrators alos seem more deadly in Iran with offically 7 declared dead already. The demonstrators have also not melted away when militia/police force has been used against them.

In Thailand the demonstrations were a lot smaller and less widespread and melted away very quickly when the military moved in.

[Spee]

It contrasts about 1000% more than it compares.

- Iran is a facist theocracy. Thailand is neither facist nor a theocracy.

Your post is littered with Islamophobia.

Iran is a theocracy. By anyone's opinion, this is an undeniable fact.

Wikipedia references define facism (in part) as:

"Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology[1][2][3][4] and a corporatist economic ideology.[5] Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state.[6] Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in combat against the weak.[7] Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[8]"

Explain to me how these definitions do not characterize present day Iran accurately and precisely.

Ergo, Iran is by all definitions, a facist theocracy, thereby making it about as different from Thailand as two countries could possibly be.

I've worked in Muslim countries and in many ways, I gain more respect for Muslim culture the more I learn about it. My last boss was a Muslim and he and I got on very well. That hardly makes me an Islamo-phobe, eh?

Your correction about Jews in Iran is noted.

Regardless, if you think present day Iran is good for its people or the region, you are dreaming. If you think Iran is so much better than Thailand or the US, by all means go and live there. No individual is perfectual and so by default, no country can be perfect. But given a choice between the three, for me one would be a distant third (as in Earth to Pluto distant).

[elcent]

there's an ongoing revolution in Iran right now. Twitter is full of live updates. hundreds of thousands protesters. At times upto 2 million. search twitter and look for Iranelection. Thousands of tweets coming in per minute. It's the only resource for Iranians to connect to the outside world and stay connected together. The US State department has announced that they will not interfere in Iranians troubles but make sure that the twitter service will stay alive and no maintenance will be held in this critical time for the Iranians.

Edited June 16, 2009 by elcent

[Jingthing]

there's an ongoing revolution in Iran right now.

Well, sure, big things are happening there, but the result is not yet known. There is a similarity here to what was happening during Black Songkran, Thailand was on the brink and it was unclear what was going to happen. If the reformists in Iran do prevail (I wouldn't bet on it) how are the traditionalists going to react? Whatever happens, a huge portion of their country is going to be very unhappy, just like in Thailand. Edited June 16, 2009 by Jingthing

[elcent]

a very interesting viewpoint http://www.chilltime.com/blog/iranelection and then watch the critical mass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzWvBDjsRLk

[elcent]

shooting at unarmed protesters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSgGXMuqJlE what a brave reaction to it.

bbc turned it's homepage green, - coincidence or to protest the ban of international journalists in Iran

Edited June 16, 2009 by elcent

[BusyB]

Thailand and Iran are indeed fundamentally split along urban-rural lines, despite local peculiarities like history and culture and of course religion.

****

I don't know what it is in Iran. For Thailand the social profiterring / personal advance networks are verticalmore than horizontal.

Interest groups and also bureaucrats form their columme of team work. Top brass/business tycoon downward to the smallest worker or pawn in case of political movement.

Regionalism is pretty weak. Most of he time when it appears it's just political sterring of local politicians. You can see in the mass migration to BKK and the lack of local thing in the top brass circle. Everyboday has to speak central-BKK language very well.

Differences in people lifestyles make it looks like social class system. There is actually class system in terms of livelyhood and social influence but the cooperation in the same class seem to be only at the top.

Despite the competition politicians, tycoons and top bureaucrat look after each other quite well.

I wouldn’t dispute the top-down/class aspect, but neither does it negate what I’m saying. Western countries for instance are past this stage. Only a minority now live in rural areas. They are no longer the source of mass political power as such. The former rural masses are now urbanised, educated, welfared etc. having drifted to the cities (like the Thais now) during the industrial revolution. That, together with universal franchise, makes for a lot less civil strife.

Regardless of hierarchies, Thailand’s reformist reds are still clearly largely rural, provincial farming and tradesmen masses (who are, yes, forced to go to the cities for work, and sell their rice at rock bottom prices to the middle-men etc.). The yellows are clearly a largely urban, metropolite elite, with mostly urbanized supporters, who yes, control the labour and rice markets. But in los the country as a whole was disenfranchised in 2006 as the struggle between the two continued. I have my own theories about that. I don’t think Thaksin was the primary target of the military/elites in the 2006 coup. I think emergent people’s power was (back then I stress, the PAD is another creature today) – it was an inherent threat to Thailand’s still (as you rightly point out) very feudal system. The reds have since lost out to political maneuvering in 2009, but hey, that’s the name of the game in parliamentary democracies. Maybe they should have concentrated on the country’s problems, instead of making Thaksin’s return their prime objective. Then they might still be in power to do something useful for their base.

I know even less about Iran than Thailand, but from what I can gather the positions are almost the reverse. There the rural voters prefer the incumbent who is a staid religious traditionalist, and one of them, and the “reformers” (Musavi is not what he’s made out to be by the western media unless he’s had a major rethink in recent years, let’s say “more realist-modernizers”) are educated urban. But this is largely down to the role of religion which also ensures fealty by both sides to the elites there (in their case the ayatollahs). In Thailand devotion to the King maintains fealty to the existing system, even by reformers as well. Those are simply two more examples of local idiosyncracies, in countries with mass rural populations largely pitted against the urbanites, in emerging countries. My only point.

Edited June 16, 2009 by BusyB

[EndofDays]

I don't know about that. I reckon the poor farmer in Iran and Thailand have a lot in common! As does the Bangkok yuppie with the Tehran yuppie.

If Iran loosens things up a bit more I think it would be a fantastic vacation destination, I love the food, they have a great historic civilization, and the young Persians are among the world's most lovely people. Lets not demonize Iranian people, they may be stuck with an awful government, but they are hardly alone in that.

In Thailand you can worship and live pretty much how you want. In Iran, it is a shia state, social controls and homosexuality is banned. There are regular sweeps picking up people who are though to be gay. It is pretty much a death sentence in Iran. If you remember, the current president of iran commented at a U.S. university, after being asked about gays in Iran, there are no gays in Iran. That should tell you the guy's mindset. Sure, Thailand is politically screwed up but is much more free country than the ones that surround it.

[Spee]

But this is largely down to the role of religion which also ensures fealty by both sides to the elites there (in their case the ayatollahs). In Thailand devotion to the King maintains fealty to the existing system, even by reformers as well.

The people of Thailand maintain reverence to the King because Thailand is a democratic monarchy and Thailand (nee' Siam) has always been a kingdom. The Thai people maintain reverence to the King in many of the same ways that other democratic monarchies maintain reverence for their heads. They are not forced to do so. They do so because it is their culture, their nature and their choice to do so.

In Iran, the majority of the population obeys the ayotollah and mullahs out of fear of violent repression. The mullahs control many aspects of daily Iranian life. For example, one is not allowed to run for public office without some sort of approval from a religious leader. The higher the position sought, the higher the approving person must sit in the religious hierarchy. This so-called devotion is maintained through use of force, not by culture or choice.

IMHO, it is way, way off base to equate fealty (or reverence) as it is observed in Thailand with the forced subservience mandated by the theocratic-facist structure which currently rules Iran.

One is a society based upon tolerance. One is a society based upon intolerance. They are in no way alike.

[BusyB]

But this is largely down to the role of religion which also ensures fealty by both sides to the elites there (in their case the ayatollahs). In Thailand devotion to the King maintains fealty to the existing system, even by reformers as well.

The people of Thailand maintain reverence to the King because Thailand is a democratic monarchy and Thailand (nee' Siam) has always been a kingdom. The Thai people maintain reverence to the King in many of the same ways that other democratic monarchies maintain reverence for their heads. They are not forced to do so. They do so because it is their culture, their nature and their choice to do so.

In Iran, the majority of the population obeys the ayotollah and mullahs out of fear of violent repression. The mullahs control many aspects of daily Iranian life. For example, one is not allowed to run for public office without some sort of approval from a religious leader. The higher the position sought, the higher the approving person must sit in the religious hierarchy. This so-called devotion is maintained through use of force, not by culture or choice.

IMHO, it is way, way off base to equate fealty (or reverence) as it is observed in Thailand with the forced subservience mandated by the theocratic-facist structure which currently rules Iran.

One is a society based upon tolerance. One is a society based upon intolerance. They are in no way alike.

I’m a republican - in that I prefer elected presidents. But I respect and accept a country’s prevailing preferences, regardless how they’ve come about or what I may think. In the end there is at least a tacit national acceptance of the status quo that should be respected by outsiders. If one’s opinion differs, it can be offered in debate. It shouldn’t reduce affection for Thailand or the Thais. In some ways it makes them more interesting. And the path of the monarchy and monarchs, especially since the late 19^thC is a fascinating, interesting and thrilling story. So is the story of King Mangrai and how he united the first Lanna states and set up Chiang Mai. And how it all fell apart when his successors blew it because they couldn’t measure up to him. Happens with all monarchies.

But what has lese majeste to do with tolerance? There has never been an open debate about the monarchy in Thailand – it was stifled in 1932-33. Also, if you speak and read Thai, (I don’t yet. I just happen to know this because I saw a brilliant and surprisingly hopeful and encouraging film about a Thai tragedy called “Citizen Juling” at a European film festival recently – a film that the makers didn’t expect to get past the tolerant Thai censors. I don’t know if they managed – but I’ve never seen it commented on anywhere) you’ll know that those huge banners you see everywhere all exort devotion to the King, and praise what he’s done for the country – I find that eery. I was not questioning the genuineness of people’s devotion either. But I repeat, it has never been debated as it has in the constitutional monarchies you quoted, so your comparison doesn’t really work.

Iran’s rural population, and many of the urbanites are as devoted to Allah and the heroes of the Islamic Revolution, i.e. Supreme Leader Khamenei, as Thais are to their King. They believe it. They are not forced. And yes they of course hate anything oppositional, gay, different, female empowering, etc., just like most theocracies and churches through the ages. I certainly wouldn’t want to live in Iran. I do plan to live in Thailand though, even if it’s having a hard time right now - that doesn’t put me off in the slightest. It’s history. I’m convinced the Thai people will find their own Thai solutions and I’m curious about how they’ll get there and what they come up with. But so will the Iranians, and I certainly don’t feel called to judge them either.

I was not implying the two countries are similar - that would be a foolish notion. I was actually trying to highlight differences amongst the apparent similarities. Looks like that didn’t come off. Each has its own culture and history, but each are split on rural/urban lines as Jingthing suggested. My position is purely that this one aspect is an inevitable stage in economic and social development, despite the other cultural religious historical differences.

[Spee]

I’m a republican - in that I prefer elected presidents.

Ahmedinijad, Castro and Chavez are "elected" presidents. That they are elected is not the issue. Rather, it is important to understand and debate the manner in which they were elected. With respect to Thailand, agree or disagree with outcomes, they have clearly tried to follow a democratic model. Iran, Cuba and Venezuela, as contrary examples, clearly have not.

I don’t know if they managed – but I’ve never seen it commented on anywhere) you’ll know that those huge banners you see everywhere all exort devotion to the King, and praise what he’s done for the country – I find that eery. I was not questioning the genuineness of people’s devotion either. But I repeat, it has never been debated as it has in the constitutional monarchies you quoted, so your comparison doesn’t really work.

That is not a position that I am at liberty to discuss or debate at length here, as per forum rules.

Each has its own culture and history, but each are split on rural/urban lines as Jingthing suggested.

It is only that at this point, a suggestion. I tried to ask for some substance, such as what the Iranian farmer and Thai farmer have in common (or not), but nothing has followed.

As a highly trained economist and sociological researcher whose opinions and conclusions I highly respect, the great Thomas Sowell cautions against misuse of facts, opinions, correlation and causality. In this case one may opine that Iranian and Thai cultures are divided between urban and rural populations. That may in fact, be true (or not). However, events that caused them to become this way and subsequent events which keep them this way, may completely unrelated (or not).

Edited June 17, 2009 by Spee

[Huey]

It contrasts about 1000% more than it compares.

- Iran is a facist theocracy. Thailand is neither facist nor a theocracy.

Your post is littered with Islamophobia.

Please define 'fascist'.Is a theocracy better or worse than the separation of Church and State? Hasn't that seperation allowed western finance capital (banker bandits and oligarchs) to plunder nations' wealth and create millions of debt-slaves, unhindered by any sense of morality? Isn't that fascism? The Mussolini Business model?

- Iran has hundreds of thousands of heroin addicts, and a reported 4M regular opiate users, almost 3% of the population (highest in the world according to the UN). Thailand has a drug problem like any other country, but nothing anywhere near these levels.

Why is this a surprise? Young Iranians are paying the price for Nato's 'failure' to curb opium production in neighbouring Afghanistan.

- The Iranian government is an enemy of the US.

Isn't it the US (at Israel's behest) who are the enemy of Iran? How many Iranian warships stand off the U.S. coast?

- Iran is a destabilizing force in its region. Thailand is a stabilizing force in its region.

Iran-bashing again. The creation of Israel quite clearly has caused the instability.

- Iran provides most of the funding and arms support for Hezbollah and other militant factions present in other countries, which are responsible for much of the regional instability.

So we are told. If it's true, isn't this a reaction to the creation of an illegal state, a western or Zionist outpost smack bang in the middle of Muslim lands? Israel seeks regional instability to justify it's deadly war machine (funded by your tax dollars), to continue to acquire land and to continually play the victim. Prod your enemy with a stick then cry foul when he responds. It's an old game. Iran has helped the U.S. in Afghanistan and cooperated fully with Nuclear inspectors. You really expect Iran not to try and defend itself from others aggression?

- Iran prohibits all religions except Islam and the government actively persecutes non-Muslims.

Not so. There are 30,000 Jews living in Tehran. Able to practice freely. There also happens to be a major problem in the south of Thailand with non-Buddhists feeling persecuted.

- Iran uses force of religion and force of the police and military to prevent government change. Thailand does neither.

You are just parroting media propaganda. Name one country Iran has invaded in the last 500 years? All countries need to maintain stability and the western assault on Iran HAS led to a stifling of democratic movements. Hardly surprising when the U.S. spends $100 million per year on undermining the Iranian government. It's public policy. Iran has been a theocracy for thousands of years. Why not just leave the Muslims alone with their religion? If it was so bad the countries would have emptied out years ago.

By the way. How many military coups has Thailand experienced in the last 50 years? 17? Perhaps you missed it.

- The Ayatollah of Iran is revered by a small minority, and reviled by the vast majority.

How do you know this? Because the media told you? Come on.

The list of contrasts goes on ad infinitum. In short, Iran and Thailand are much closer to complete opposites and nowhere near parallels. This is a topic is search of meaning and substance, IMHO.

When you can provide some substance then you can demand it.

Thank you for posting this well thought out responce. I was going to do something similar last night when I saw it but it was quite late. I have some ties to Iraq and have spent allot of time there so Iran is really not on my places to go list any time soon. But as for the pepole yeah they are generaly quite open and in a odd way do kinda remind me of each other on a political level. But then again my opinion is not tainted by strong religous or political views.

[Plus]

Thailand’s reformist reds are still clearly largely rural, provincial farming and tradesmen masses (who are, yes, forced to go to the cities for work, and sell their rice at rock bottom prices to the middle-men etc.). The yellows are clearly a largely urban, metropolite elite, with mostly urbanized supporters, who yes, control the labour and rice markets.

Reds are not proposing any meaningful reforms.

Yellows don't control rice markets, they are controlled by red leaders or their colleges - local feudal lords.

I have no idea why Thailand is compared to Iran. In Iran, afaik, it's the old guard that relies on rigging elections, not the opposition. In Thailand it's the "reformist reds" who are worst offenderds against fair elections, not the "traditionalist".

[Spee]

Thank you for posting this well thought out responce. I was going to do something similar last night when I saw it but it was quite late. I have some ties to Iraq and have spent allot of time there so Iran is really not on my places to go list any time soon. But as for the pepole yeah they are generaly quite open and in a odd way do kinda remind me of each other on a political level. But then again my opinion is not tainted by strong religous or political views.

Oh please ... spare me. You're commenting on a thread that is all about religion and politics, but you don't have any strong feelings one way or another on the subjects ?? How in the heck is having strong views "tainted?"

No one says there is an issue with the people of Iran. The issue is with the theocratic-facist regime. If you don't feel the regime is theocratic facism, what on Earth do you honestly think it is ... a legitimate democracy? What a load of crap! The will of the Iranian people is being suppressed by force as per direction of the Ayotollah.

As far as all that nonsense about Israel being the problem, who is really spouting the propaganda? Iran may not have invaded a neighboring country per your definition, but they are certainly fighting proxy wars on several fronts, and most certainly conducted clandestine insurgency on many fronts of the Iraq war.

And of course the typical response will be that the US fights proxy wars and supports Israel. The US conducts itself in accordance with discussions with the UN as well as its many allies around the world. Contrary to popular opinion, the war in Iraq was conducted by a multi-national force from more than 30 nations. And as far as support for Israel goes, the US also provides huge amounts of humanitarian aide to Fatah/Hamas, Lebanon, Yemen, Egypt and many other countries in the region.

No matter how one chooses to slice it, Iran is the odd man out, not because of their people or Persian culture, but because of the totalitarian regime that strangles the country.

To get back on topic, several people have suggested that Iran and Thailand may have some political commonality (or any other for that matter). I have yet to see any evidence of it from anyone here.

- Does Thailand require approval from religious leaders before allowing people to run for office?

- Does Thailand fund proxy wars and insurgency in neighboring regional countries?

- Is Thailand governed by sharia law?

- Does Thailand persecute, punish and execute homosexuals as a matter of religious will forced into law?

- Thai people make political protests in the context of democracy. Iranian people make political protests because they want democracy.

The list goes on and on. These are stark polar political differences between Iran and Thailand. Where is the political commonality?

Edited June 17, 2009 by Spee

[fullwhenempty]

Thank you for posting this well thought out responce. I was going to do something similar last night when I saw it but it was quite late. I have some ties to Iraq and have spent allot of time there so Iran is really not on my places to go list any time soon. But as for the pepole yeah they are generaly quite open and in a odd way do kinda remind me of each other on a political level. But then again my opinion is not tainted by strong religous or political views.

Oh please ... spare me. You're commenting on a thread that is all about religion and politics, but you don't have any strong feelings one way or another on the subjects ?? How in the heck is having strong views "tainted?"

No one says there is an issue with the people of Iran. The issue is with the theocratic-facist regime. If you don't feel the regime is theocratic facism, what on Earth do you honestly think it is ... a legitimate democracy? What a load of crap! The will of the Iranian people is being suppressed by force as per direction of the Ayotollah.

As far as all that nonsense about Israel being the problem, who is really spouting the propaganda? Iran may not have invaded a neighboring country per your definition, but they are certainly fighting proxy wars on several fronts, and most certainly conducted clandestine insurgency on many fronts of the Iraq war.

And of course the typical response will be that the US fights proxy wars and supports Israel. The US conducts itself in accordance with discussions with the UN as well as its many allies around the world. Contrary to popular opinion, the war in Iraq was conducted by a multi-national force from more than 30 nations. And as far as support for Israel goes, the US also provides huge amounts of humanitarian aide to Fatah/Hamas, Lebanon, Yemen, Egypt and many other countries in the region.

No matter how one chooses to slice it, Iran is the odd man out, not because of their people or Persian culture, but because of the totalitarian regime that strangles the country.

To get back on topic, several people have suggested that Iran and Thailand may have some political commonality (or any other for that matter). I have yet to see any evidence of it from anyone here.

- Does Thailand require approval from religious leaders before allowing people to run for office?

- Does Thailand fund proxy wars and insurgency in neighboring regional countries?

- Is Thailand governed by sharia law?

- Does Thailand persecute, punish and execute homosexuals as a matter of religious will forced into law?

- Thai people make political protests in the context of democracy. Iranian people make political protests because they want democracy.

The list goes on and on. These are stark polar political differences between Iran and Thailand. Where is the political commonality?

I have no intention of living in Iran because 'I like it so much'. I live here and like it just fine thank you. Can't wait for you to start calling me a 'self-hating American' and/or 'domestic terrorist'.

You'll have to forgive my lack of trust in our government. Since I have sons in the military, I kind of object to them being spun into yet more wars, to die, or be damaged, to meet the goals of evil old men who have nothing better to do than keep killing brown-skinned babies and satisfy a seemingly insatiable bloodlust. At what point do you say enough is enough? There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. Maybe you are a 'self-hating human being' who is happy to see them all perish?

What's happening in Iran is the same tried and trusted destabilization of a country who's leadership is resisting the loving embrace of western elites. Everybody in the region knows that there is a proxy war already afoot with the United States supporting anti-Iranian elements in the region as well as opposition groups within Iran. When Chavez was removed (if only for 2 days) it was exactly the same pattern as we see here. The ONLY acceptable political model, to Finance Capital and industrialists, is pro-business and anti-worker. Even where democratically elected governments have been elected, if they have shown any tendency to favour workers or aren't led by wealthy landowners and bankers, they are removed, by consent, or by force but removed they will be. I'm talking third world countries BTW.

Arabs fully recognize the threat from western capitalism bent on control of their natural resources and have been trying to find a way to counter it. Islamic fundamentalism is an understandable counter movement. Young men always fight harder inspired by faith. I think it will fail ultimately in Iran because as we saw in Iraq, it was very easy to divide Shia and Sunni and rule. Just blow up a mosque or two, blame the other guy and watch as they tear each other to pieces. In Iran, you just have to find the political, religious or economic fault lines and apply appropriate pressure. Shooting a few protesters during a rally and blaming the government is no surprise.

Please spare me the 'coalition of the unwilling' or 'arm-twisted'. The Iraq war was totally illegal and the UN is only useful when it supports U.S. goals. When it doesn't, it is ignored. The glorious U.S., who keep presenting us with an endless procession of evil leaders, who always eat dead babies and are going to rape our women and take away our freedoms, (Terror! Terror! Terror!) seems to take great pride in attacking weak countries with peasant populations, who invariably admire the U.S. until they are turned into spit-roast. There isn't a country on earth that can threaten the mighty U.S. They know all too well it would be suicide. And so these pretexts have to be created so the military-industrial beast gets to feed for another year or two.

Is Iran really a reluctant theocracy? Ayatolla Khomeini had 12 million people at his funeral. I doubt Bush will get a dozen. There was apparently an independent analysis of voters intentions prior to the official vote where Moussavi got 12%. The Iran Daily says in the official vote he polled 33%. That's 13 million votes. Who's to know the truth. The advantage is always with whoever counts the ballots.

I'm surprised at your naivety. Anyone with an ounce of political knowledge knows that money is used as leverage. Many a country has fallen to economic warfare. When countries start accepting NGOs and IMF or World Bank funds, they are already caught in the Imperial net. These 'donations' come with strings or are used to prise open a country. Thailand is an interesting mix of capitulation to capitalism with its own strong identity and culture. They learned the hard way to avoid the IMF.

The U.S. is an incredible military empire. By its own diktat it seeks 'full spectrum dominance'. You may not agree with how it conducts itself but once it turns its attention on you, it's pretty much game over. I don't feel sorry for the Iranian government, politics is a dirty business but I do feel sorry for all those innocents who will die while this battle reaches its conclusion. Perhaps it is better if Iran simply rolls over. That, though, would not suit the warmongers whose profits will dry up without a few body bags. Wars are not meant to be won. Just maintained. Orwell, prophet-like, spells this out very clearly.

My concern is a selfish one. I have no wish to be suckered into another world war where Armageddon beckons and my sons will die on behalf of another nation, only too happy to have others do its dirty work.

BTW. When you find a 'legitimate democracy', please let me know. I'm still looking for one.

Edited June 17, 2009 by fullwhenempty

[EndofDays]

Thank you for posting this well thought out responce. I was going to do something similar last night when I saw it but it was quite late. I have some ties to Iraq and have spent allot of time there so Iran is really not on my places to go list any time soon. But as for the pepole yeah they are generaly quite open and in a odd way do kinda remind me of each other on a political level. But then again my opinion is not tainted by strong religous or political views.

Oh please ... spare me. You're commenting on a thread that is all about religion and politics, but you don't have any strong feelings one way or another on the subjects ?? How in the heck is having strong views "tainted?"

No one says there is an issue with the people of Iran. The issue is with the theocratic-facist regime. If you don't feel the regime is theocratic facism, what on Earth do you honestly think it is ... a legitimate democracy? What a load of crap! The will of the Iranian people is being suppressed by force as per direction of the Ayotollah.

As far as all that nonsense about Israel being the problem, who is really spouting the propaganda? Iran may not have invaded a neighboring country per your definition, but they are certainly fighting proxy wars on several fronts, and most certainly conducted clandestine insurgency on many fronts of the Iraq war.

And of course the typical response will be that the US fights proxy wars and supports Israel. The US conducts itself in accordance with discussions with the UN as well as its many allies around the world. Contrary to popular opinion, the war in Iraq was conducted by a multi-national force from more than 30 nations. And as far as support for Israel goes, the US also provides huge amounts of humanitarian aide to Fatah/Hamas, Lebanon, Yemen, Egypt and many other countries in the region.

No matter how one chooses to slice it, Iran is the odd man out, not because of their people or Persian culture, but because of the totalitarian regime that strangles the country.

To get back on topic, several people have suggested that Iran and Thailand may have some political commonality (or any other for that matter). I have yet to see any evidence of it from anyone here.

- Does Thailand require approval from religious leaders before allowing people to run for office?

- Does Thailand fund proxy wars and insurgency in neighboring regional countries?

- Is Thailand governed by sharia law?

- Does Thailand persecute, punish and execute homosexuals as a matter of religious will forced into law?

- Thai people make political protests in the context of democracy. Iranian people make political protests because they want democracy.

The list goes on and on. These are stark polar political differences between Iran and Thailand. Where is the political commonality?

I have no intention of living in Iran because 'I like it so much'. I live here and like it just fine thank you. Can't wait for you to start calling me a 'self-hating American' and/or 'domestic terrorist'.

You'll have to forgive my lack of trust in our government. Since I have sons in the military, I kind of object to them being spun into yet more wars, to die, or be damaged, to meet the goals of evil old men who have nothing better to do than keep killing brown-skinned babies and satisfy a seemingly insatiable bloodlust. At what point do you say enough is enough? There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. Maybe you are a 'self-hating human being' who is happy to see them all perish?

What's happening in Iran is the same tried and trusted destabilization of a country who's leadership is resisting the loving embrace of western elites. Everybody in the region knows that there is a proxy war already afoot with the United States supporting anti-Iranian elements in the region as well as opposition groups within Iran. When Chavez was removed (if only for 2 days) it was exactly the same pattern as we see here. The ONLY acceptable political model, to Finance Capital and industrialists, is pro-business and anti-worker. Even where democratically elected governments have been elected, if they have shown any tendency to favour workers or aren't led by wealthy landowners and bankers, they are removed, by consent, or by force but removed they will be. I'm talking third world countries BTW.

Arabs fully recognize the threat from western capitalism bent on control of their natural resources and have been trying to find a way to counter it. Islamic fundamentalism is an understandable counter movement. Young men always fight harder inspired by faith. I think it will fail ultimately in Iran because as we saw in Iraq, it was very easy to divide Shia and Sunni and rule. Just blow up a mosque or two, blame the other guy and watch as they tear each other to pieces. In Iran, you just have to find the political, religious or economic fault lines and apply appropriate pressure. Shooting a few protesters during a rally and blaming the government is no surprise.

Please spare me the 'coalition of the unwilling' or 'arm-twisted'. The Iraq war was totally illegal and the UN is only useful when it supports U.S. goals. When it doesn't, it is ignored. The glorious U.S., who keep presenting us with an endless procession of evil leaders, who always eat dead babies and are going to rape our women and take away our freedoms, (Terror! Terror! Terror!) seems to take great pride in attacking weak countries with peasant populations, who invariably admire the U.S. until they are turned into spit-roast. There isn't a country on earth that can threaten the mighty U.S. They know all too well it would be suicide. And so these pretexts have to be created so the military-industrial beast gets to feed for another year or two.

Is Iran really a reluctant theocracy? Ayatolla Khomeini had 12 million people at his funeral. I doubt Bush will get a dozen. There was apparently an independent analysis of voters intentions prior to the official vote where Moussavi got 12%. The Iran Daily says in the official vote he polled 33%. That's 13 million votes. Who's to know the truth. The advantage is always with whoever counts the ballots.

I'm surprised at your naivety. Anyone with an ounce of political knowledge knows that money is used as leverage. Many a country has fallen to economic warfare. When countries start accepting NGOs and IMF or World Bank funds, they are already caught in the Imperial net. These 'donations' come with strings or are used to prise open a country. Thailand is an interesting mix of capitulation to capitalism with its own strong identity and culture. They learned the hard way to avoid the IMF.

The U.S. is an incredible military empire. By its own diktat it seeks 'full spectrum dominance'. You may not agree with how it conducts itself but once it turns its attention on you, it's pretty much game over. I don't feel sorry for the Iranian government, politics is a dirty business but I do feel sorry for all those innocents who will die while this battle reaches its conclusion. Perhaps it is better if Iran simply rolls over. That, though, would not suit the warmongers whose profits will dry up without a few body bags. Wars are not meant to be won. Just maintained. Orwell, prophet-like, spells this out very clearly.

My concern is a selfish one. I have no wish to be suckered into another world war where Armageddon beckons and my sons will die on behalf of another nation, only too happy to have others do its dirty work.

BTW. When you find a 'legitimate democracy', please let me know. I'm still looking for one.

Why does every dam_n thread turn to U.S. bashing? My goodness, you are truly are a sad fellow. Again, the U.N. had 17 resolutions threatening the use of force against Iraq and never followed up on any of them. Beleive it or not, Cpt. Chaos, the U.S. was holding up what you people call international law by carring out the end-state of the resolutions-the use of force for Iraq to comply to the resolutions. There is a reason North Korea and Iran laugh at the U.N. when it threatens sanctions because it knows the U.N. will do nothing and is a pathetic entity. There is a reason both of those country's want direct dialog because they know if the U.S. ever does deicde to blast you, it is game over. IF the rest of the world would get off their butts and actually take responsibility for the mess they made durring their "colonial period", we wouldn't have to be the world police. Heck, the tyrants of the Balknas laughed at the U.N. and Europe when they threatened to intervene. Why the heck did the U.S. have to take care of Europe's own backyard?

Edited June 17, 2009 by EndofDays

[Spee]

No matter how one chooses to slice it, Iran is the odd man out, not because of their people or Persian culture, but because of the totalitarian regime that strangles the country.

To get back on topic, several people have suggested that Iran and Thailand may have some political commonality (or any other for that matter). I have yet to see any evidence of it from anyone here.

- Does Thailand require approval from religious leaders before allowing people to run for office?

- Does Thailand fund proxy wars and insurgency in neighboring regional countries?

- Is Thailand governed by sharia law?

- Does Thailand persecute, punish and execute homosexuals as a matter of religious will forced into law?

- Thai people make political protests in the context of democracy. Iranian people make political protests because they want democracy.

The list goes on and on. These are stark polar political differences between Iran and Thailand. Where is the political commonality?

I have no intention of living in Iran because 'I like it so much'. I live here and like it just fine thank you. Can't wait for you to start calling me a 'self-hating American' and/or 'domestic terrorist'.

............... several paragraphs of blah, blah, blah deleted ..........................

BTW. When you find a 'legitimate democracy', please let me know. I'm still looking for one.

How about taking your finger off the anti-American rant button long enough to address some of the real questions put forth in this thread?

Do you agree or disagree there is political commonality between Iran and Thailand? And why?

As for your comment on "legitimate democracy," I guess you are going to have to first explain which countries have a democracy that you interpret to be "illegitimate" and why you feel that they are that way.

[fullwhenempty]

How about taking your finger off the anti-American rant button long enough to address some of the real questions put forth in this thread?

Ah. The airy wave and my responses to YOUR comments are instantly dismissed.

Ok. I'll respond to the 'real' questions, which of course you, yourself, have stuck to manfully.

The question is a rather silly one. You could pick any country in the world and find similarities and differences to Iran. As long as you have Iran then you get to 'Iran-bash', which you seem to enjoy, while 'America-bashing' is not allowed.

I propose a comparison between America and Thailand. Perhaps we could compare the extent of militarization? Corruption within the Police and criminal Justice system? Whether there is debt-slavery in both countries? Maybe we could discuss which country ignores their Constitutions? Whether there is any comparison vis-a-vis gun crime? Which country brainwashes its citizens the most? Which country's media is more controlled? How many executions there are per annum? The % of wealth distribution? The difference between 70 million Iranian fundamentalists and 100 million Christian fundamentalists? The extremism of its leaders?

The comparisons are easy to find and not so different after all. Or perhaps I'm just a dirty rotten America basher?

Why does every dam_n thread turn to U.S. bashing?

You mean I'm not a lone voice in the wilderness? Let me take a stab at it. Because we are all deluded and you are the only one who knows the truth. Right?

My goodness, you are truly are a sad fellow.

Ah. The smear. As predictable as night follows day.

Again, the U.N. had 17 resolutions threatening the use of force against Iraq and never followed up on any of them. Beleive it or not, Cpt. Chaos, the U.S. was holding up what you people call international law by carring out the end-state of the resolutions-the use of force for Iraq to comply to the resolutions.

Hmm. Now where did they hide those pesky WMDs? I know. 'They are East, West, South and North somewhat.' Hehe. Rumsfeld really cracks me up.

There is a reason North Korea and Iran laugh at the U.N. when it threatens sanctions because it knows the U.N. will do nothing and is a pathetic entity. There is a reason both of those country's want direct dialog because they know if the U.S. ever does deicde to blast you, it is game over. IF the rest of the world would get off their butts and actually take responsibility for the mess they made durring their "colonial period", we wouldn't have to be the world police.

I know. I know, Deputy. It's a tough job but someone's gotta do it.

Heck, the tyrants of the Balknas laughed at the U.N. and Europe when they threatened to intervene. Why the heck did the U.S. have to take care of Europe's own backyard?

All three 'tyrants' laughing? They really had what's coming to them, huh? Maybe it was at the absurdity of bombing the crap out of civilians then calling it a 'humanitarian' mission.

Anyway, patriotic one. Thank you for highlighting so starkly the difference between perception and reality.

[EndofDays]

How about taking your finger off the anti-American rant button long enough to address some of the real questions put forth in this thread?

Ah. The airy wave and my responses to YOUR comments are instantly dismissed.

Ok. I'll respond to the 'real' questions, which of course you, yourself, have stuck to manfully.

The question is a rather silly one. You could pick any country in the world and find similarities and differences to Iran. As long as you have Iran then you get to 'Iran-bash', which you seem to enjoy, while 'America-bashing' is not allowed.

I propose a comparison between America and Thailand. Perhaps we could compare the extent of militarization? Corruption within the Police and criminal Justice system? Whether there is debt-slavery in both countries? Maybe we could discuss which country ignores their Constitutions? Whether there is any comparison vis-a-vis gun crime? Which country brainwashes its citizens the most? Which country's media is more controlled? How many executions there are per annum? The % of wealth distribution? The difference between 70 million Iranian fundamentalists and 100 million Christian fundamentalists? The extremism of its leaders?

The comparisons are easy to find and not so different after all. Or perhaps I'm just a dirty rotten America basher?

Why does every dam_n thread turn to U.S. bashing?

You mean I'm not a lone voice in the wilderness? Let me take a stab at it. Because we are all deluded and you are the only one who knows the truth. Right?

My goodness, you are truly are a sad fellow.

Ah. The smear. As predictable as night follows day.

Again, the U.N. had 17 resolutions threatening the use of force against Iraq and never followed up on any of them. Beleive it or not, Cpt. Chaos, the U.S. was holding up what you people call international law by carring out the end-state of the resolutions-the use of force for Iraq to comply to the resolutions.

Hmm. Now where did they hide those pesky WMDs? I know. 'They are East, West, South and North somewhat.' Hehe. Rumsfeld really cracks me up.

There is a reason North Korea and Iran laugh at the U.N. when it threatens sanctions because it knows the U.N. will do nothing and is a pathetic entity. There is a reason both of those country's want direct dialog because they know if the U.S. ever does deicde to blast you, it is game over. IF the rest of the world would get off their butts and actually take responsibility for the mess they made durring their "colonial period", we wouldn't have to be the world police.

I know. I know, Deputy. It's a tough job but someone's gotta do it.

Heck, the tyrants of the Balknas laughed at the U.N. and Europe when they threatened to intervene. Why the heck did the U.S. have to take care of Europe's own backyard?

All three 'tyrants' laughing? They really had what's coming to them, huh? Maybe it was at the absurdity of bombing the crap out of civilians then calling it a 'humanitarian' mission.

Anyway, patriotic one. Thank you for highlighting so starkly the difference between perception and reality.

No, you are an ignorant anti-semetic idiot, that is all. The thai governmental system is admittedly screwed up. The Iranian government is inherently evil in the the ruling ayatollahs believe that the second coming will be brought about by "and end of days" scenario. OUt of fire and destruction will their version of paradise be realized and that starts withe destruction of Israel.They have called for the destruction of an entire race of people, Jews, and a country, Israel and openly support terrorism. No comparrisons with Thailand. Yes, there are Jews in Iran but they are limited in political power and limited in their religious freedoms so that post was incorrect. I can't help it that you hate the U.S. I guess your piss-ant little country isn't able to influence world opinion and so must ass kiss any evil s.o.b. that they come in contact with, god-forbid they do the right thing and stand-up to them. You take the "Obama Approach", lets wait and see what world opinion has to say. Pathetic. Your mentality is the reasons dictators are allowed to exist.

[Spee]

The question is a rather silly one. You could pick any country in the world and find similarities and differences to Iran. As long as you have Iran then you get to 'Iran-bash', which you seem to enjoy, while 'America-bashing' is not allowed.

This is hardly a silly topic.

Since when is calling Iran a facist-theocracy an "Iran-bash?" I refer you to my earlier post for definitions, which indicate the sentence as being a statement of fact, not bashing. If you think it is something other than that, then by all means please enlighten everyone.

From my own ThaiVisa home page:

"- America is rapidly heading toward socialism like western Europe.

- my new President, Barack Obama, is a deer in the headlights and is in way over his head. He is a dyed in the wool anti-capitalist socialist, if not the quintessential "Manchurian candidate."

- the current American Senate and House leadership is nothing more than incompetent power-lusting bureaucrats whose only real skill is bankrupting everything that they get their dirty little fingers on. They should be ashamed, if not cast out of office and prosecuted."

You might consider that "America-bashing." On the other hand, I would consider them to be merely my opinions, albeit fairly accurate ones.

I propose a comparison between America and Thailand. Perhaps we could compare the extent of militarization? Corruption within the Police and criminal Justice system? Whether there is debt-slavery in both countries? Maybe we could discuss which country ignores their Constitutions? Whether there is any comparison vis-a-vis gun crime? Which country brainwashes its citizens the most? Which country's media is more controlled? How many executions there are per annum? The % of wealth distribution? The difference between 70 million Iranian fundamentalists and 100 million Christian fundamentalists? The extremism of its leaders?

Since the thread is about Iran and Thailand and not America and Thailand, I'll ignore the continuing rant and give this one more try ...

1. Do you agree or disagree there is political commonality between Iran and Thailand? And why?

2. As for your comment on "legitimate democracy," I guess you are going to have to first explain which countries have a democracy that you interpret to be "illegitimate" and why you feel that they are that way.

[cmdream]

The question is a rather silly one. You could pick any country in the world and find similarities and differences to Iran. As long as you have Iran then you get to 'Iran-bash', which you seem to enjoy, while 'America-bashing' is not allowed.

This is hardly a silly topic.

Since when is calling Iran a facist-theocracy an "Iran-bash?" I refer you to my earlier post for definitions, which indicate the sentence as being a statement of fact, not bashing. If you think it is something other than that, then by all means please enlighten everyone.

From my own ThaiVisa home page:

"- America is rapidly heading toward socialism like western Europe.

- my new President, Barack Obama, is a deer in the headlights and is in way over his head. He is a dyed in the wool anti-capitalist socialist, if not the quintessential "Manchurian candidate."

- the current American Senate and House leadership is nothing more than incompetent power-lusting bureaucrats whose only real skill is bankrupting everything that they get their dirty little fingers on. They should be ashamed, if not cast out of office and prosecuted."

You might consider that "America-bashing." On the other hand, I would consider them to be merely my opinions, albeit fairly accurate ones.

I propose a comparison between America and Thailand. Perhaps we could compare the extent of militarization? Corruption within the Police and criminal Justice system? Whether there is debt-slavery in both countries? Maybe we could discuss which country ignores their Constitutions? Whether there is any comparison vis-a-vis gun crime? Which country brainwashes its citizens the most? Which country's media is more controlled? How many executions there are per annum? The % of wealth distribution? The difference between 70 million Iranian fundamentalists and 100 million Christian fundamentalists? The extremism of its leaders?

Since the thread is about Iran and Thailand and not America and Thailand, I'll ignore the continuing rant and give this one more try ...

1. Do you agree or disagree there is political commonality between Iran and Thailand? And why?

2. As for your comment on "legitimate democracy," I guess you are going to have to first explain which countries have a democracy that you interpret to be "illegitimate" and why you feel that they are that way.

This one is easy, Iran is an M country whose mission is world domination.

very similar to Nazi Germany. Eliminate all people who do not follow our political ( religious) doctorate. This has been demonstrated all over the world for the last 50 years. Now they have oil money to expand their mission and terrorize nations. Somalia is a good example of where Africa is headed. 9-11 is another example of their intent. No comparison to Thailand

whose politics are internal. A Kingdom trying to become an open and free society .

[MayBeLater]

The main difference

- In Thailand a majority of the populace is pro-opposition

- In Iran a majority of the populace is pro-government

- In Thailand the minority stole the vote of the majority

- In Iran the minority is trying to steal the vote of the majority

- In Thailand the majority poor are pro-opposition

- In Iran the majority poor are pro-government

- In Thailand the military/ monarchy / elite supports the minority because it forms their powerbase

- In Thailand the military/ clergy in the end will always support the majority (=poor) beacause its their powerbase

It would be nice if the media would cover the current events in Iran for its true merits; a small progressive student and wordly minority tries to establish a more progressive and little bit less stringent form of theocracy than the very traditional majority in Iran wants.

[MayBeLater]

Its interesting to see what is happening in Iran now and how it compares and contrasts with Thailand.

It contrasts about 1000% more than it compares.

- Iran is a facist theocracy. Thailand is neither facist nor a theocracy.

- Iran has hundreds of thousands of heroin addicts, and a reported 4M regular opiate users, almost 3% of the population (highest in the world according to the UN). Thailand has a drug problem like any other country, but nothing anywhere near these levels.

- The Iranian government is an enemy of the US. Thailand is a staunch ally.

- Iran is a destabilizing force in its region. Thailand is a stabilizing force in its region.

- Iran provides most of the funding and arms support for Hezbollah and other militant factions present in other countries, which are responsible for much of the regional instability. Thailand does no such thing.

- Iran prohibits all religions except Islam and the government actively persecutes non-Muslims. Though majority Buddhist, Thai law permits freedom of religion and Thailand has had a rich history of religious tolerance, including Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics, Jews and Muslims (current southern strife aside).

- Iran uses force of religion and force of the police and military to prevent government change. Thailand does neither.

- The Ayatollah of Iran is revered by a small minority, and reviled by the vast majority. The King of Thailand is highly revered by all.

The list of contrasts goes on ad infinitum. In short, Iran and Thailand are much closer to complete opposites and nowhere near parallels.

This is a topic is search of meaning and substance, IMHO.

Spee, everything you wrote is very simplistic. Can I ask from which country you are (i can guess it already).

Just one point I want to mention here. Iran has freedom of religion, except for the Bahai. Jews and Christians are free to worship (within certain limits, granted) their God.

Spee please fight the attempts to brainwash you! Read 1948 from George Orwell, its might give you some clues how to do ;-)

[Jingthing]

- In Iran a majority of the populace is pro-government

- In Iran the minority is trying to steal the vote of the majority

I think you are wrong.

[BusyB]

Its interesting to see what is happening in Iran now and how it compares and contrasts with Thailand.

It contrasts about 1000% more than it compares.

- Iran is a facist theocracy. Thailand is neither facist nor a theocracy.

- Iran has hundreds of thousands of heroin addicts, and a reported 4M regular opiate users, almost 3% of the population (highest in the world according to the UN). Thailand has a drug problem like any other country, but nothing anywhere near these levels.

- The Iranian government is an enemy of the US. Thailand is a staunch ally.

- Iran is a destabilizing force in its region. Thailand is a stabilizing force in its region.

- Iran provides most of the funding and arms support for Hezbollah and other militant factions present in other countries, which are responsible for much of the regional instability. Thailand does no such thing.

- Iran prohibits all religions except Islam and the government actively persecutes non-Muslims. Though majority Buddhist, Thai law permits freedom of religion and Thailand has had a rich history of religious tolerance, including Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics, Jews and Muslims (current southern strife aside).

- Iran uses force of religion and force of the police and military to prevent government change. Thailand does neither.

- The Ayatollah of Iran is revered by a small minority, and reviled by the vast majority. The King of Thailand is highly revered by all.

The list of contrasts goes on ad infinitum. In short, Iran and Thailand are much closer to complete opposites and nowhere near parallels.

This is a topic is search of meaning and substance, IMHO.

Spee, everything you wrote is very simplistic. Can I ask from which country you are (i can guess it already).

Just one point I want to mention here. Iran has freedom of religion, except for the Bahai. Jews and Christians are free to worship (within certain limits, granted) their God.

Spee please fight the attempts to brainwash you! Read 1948 from George Orwell, its might give you some clues how to do ;-)

I agree MayBeLater, very superficial in my eyes. That's why I moved on. He seems to have a bee in his bonnet ...

[cmdream]

The main difference

- In Thailand a majority of the populace is pro-opposition

- In Iran a majority of the populace is pro-government

- In Thailand the minority stole the vote of the majority

- In Iran the minority is trying to steal the vote of the majority

- In Thailand the majority poor are pro-opposition

- In Iran the majority poor are pro-government

- In Thailand the military/ monarchy / elite supports the minority because it forms their powerbase

- In Thailand the military/ clergy in the end will always support the majority (=poor) beacause its their powerbase

It would be nice if the media would cover the current events in Iran for its true merits; a small progressive student and wordly minority tries to establish a more progressive and little bit less stringent form of theocracy than the very traditional majority in Iran wants.

Thanks for your pro Iran stance. I admire your washed brain. Do you really think that your government represents the Iranian people? To the world your country looks like Nazi Germany circa 1935 bent on development of a nuke. Your President has already threatened the USA. Your people we see on TV carrying signs saying "Death to America" do not get unnoticed by the American people . Your country and the rest of the M world who are trying to rule the world are in for a nasty awakening. you are warned.

[fullwhenempty]

No, you are an ignorant anti-semetic idiot, that is all. The thai governmental system is admittedly screwed up. The Iranian government is inherently evil in the the ruling ayatollahs believe that the second coming will be brought about by "and end of days" scenario. OUt of fire and destruction will their version of paradise be realized and that starts withe destruction of Israel.They have called for the destruction of an entire race of people, Jews, and a country, Israel and openly support terrorism. No comparrisons with Thailand. Yes, there are Jews in Iran but they are limited in political power and limited in their religious freedoms so that post was incorrect. I can't help it that you hate the U.S. I guess your piss-ant little country isn't able to influence world opinion and so must ass kiss any evil s.o.b. that they come in contact with, god-forbid they do the right thing and stand-up to them. You take the "Obama Approach", lets wait and see what world opinion has to say. Pathetic. Your mentality is the reasons dictators are allowed to exist.

Stunning.

It would have been "Better for you to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt"... but OK. Since I've taken a shine to you, I'll rise to the challenge.

1. It's not MY 'piss-ass little country'. It's the Thais and I doubt they would warm to your description.

2. We are all 'ignorant' to some extent.

3. Your 'anti-semitic' smear is extremely ignorant... http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/zanda.cfm

The good guys don't need 'useful idiots' harming their cause. Please think about that next time you smear.

4. All three major monotheistic religions have teachings regarding the end-times. I am not aware that 'Mad Mullahs' are trying to hasten this but I do know the evangelical movement seem to be pretty impatient for the 'Rapture'. Most of the ones I've met are as mad as March hares.

5. I do not hate the U.S. I hope it can survive this onslaught on its freedoms. The policies of its leaders are immoral. Both parties love dropping bombs on the innocent and perpetual war, with perpetual war powers, is not democracy.

6. You can keep your "Obama Approach". He's just another puppet doing as he's told while spellbinding the gullible masses and continuing America (and perhaps the world's) path to fascism/marxism. You are too smart to be brainwashed. I can see that.

7. I will 'stand-up' to anyone who attacks me. That is the natural right of ALL nations. The U.S. does not have a 'defence' industry. It has an 'offense' industry. It spends more on arms than the rest of the world put together. Defence of the 'Fatherland'.. oops!... I mean 'Homeland' (another very un-American word) ... is legitimate. Laying waste to other nations, IMHO, is not.

8. 'Your mentality is the reasons dictators are allowed to exist.' Breath-taking. You clearly don't know your own history with regard to Dictators.

This is developing into a 'pissing contest' which are usually pointless. I'm sure the OP will welcome his thread back. My apologies to him for throwing a spanner in the works.

I'm out.

[MayBeLater]

Thanks for your pro Iran stance. I admire your washed brain. Do you really think that your government represents the Iranian people? To the world your country looks like Nazi Germany circa 1935 bent on development of a nuke. Your President has already threatened the USA. Your people we see on TV carrying signs saying "Death to America" do not get unnoticed by the American people . Your country and the rest of the M world who are trying to rule the world are in for a nasty awakening. you are warned.

My government? Sorry I aint Iranian. But I take it as a compliment you think I am. As for Iran being a treat to the USA (perhaps your from that country?), don't make me laugh, no country is treatening the USA. Some smart countries (North Korea and soon Iran) found out that you need a nuke to contain aggression from the USA. If S. Hussein had had a nuke the middle east would have been less of a mess (and Iraq would have continued to be a beacon of secularism in the region).

The world wants the USA to stop thinking that they are the worlds greatest, and the world wants the USA to start behaving as a normal civilised nation without the arrogance that country is known for.

Darn the USA even managed to hijack this topic, funny how that country always comes into discussions they should stay out of.

Now back to the topic please; the comparison between Iran and Thailand.

[Spee]

- In Iran a majority of the populace is pro-government

- In Iran the minority is trying to steal the vote of the majority

- In Iran the majority poor are pro-government

On what basis do you make these statements? Can you offer some substance to bolster your opinion?

- In Thailand (Spee thinks you meant to say Iran here) the military/ clergy in the end will always support the majority (=poor) beacause its their powerbase

This is nonsense. The clergy dictates what the people can and cannot do.

For example, people cannot run for public office without explicit approval from a religious leader. The higher the office, the higher the approval that is required. No one may run for the Iranian presidency without explicit approval of the Ayatollah. How is that supporting the majority? Can you imagine the Brits standing for mandatory Church of England approval for someone to run for PM?

Do you think the majority in Iran have enjoyed having the government (by order of the clergy) shut off their telephone, internet and other media services, in an effort to censor if not prevent release of information that does not toe the party line?

It would be nice if the media would cover the current events in Iran for its true merits;

On this point we seem to agree. With Obama taking the stance of an amoral, unprincipled, nutless pussy, and with the state-run mainstream media being totally up his ass, it is highly unlikely for them to spew anything other than the party line.

Fortunately, the state-run mainstream media has jumped the shark and their ratings being in the toilet compared to other media outlets. Fortunately, in this day and age of information availability, we have seen the reality of what is really going on in Iran, despite the best efforts of the tyrannical leadership to censor and prevent it.

The clergy junta in Iran seems to have the most in common with the military junta in Myanmar. I see many political parallels between Iran and Myanmar. I see few if any political parallels between Iran and Thailand.