What's Wrong With Thaivisa.com And Many Of Its Forumers?

[emsfeld]

my first reaction after a few paragraphs was "this can't have been written by a Thai person".

i see a few others think the same.

You (and many others claiming the same) cant be serious! I guess it has to do with the Thai people you know and surround yourselves with! It shows that you guys really know only one (or a very small number of) side(s) of the many Thailand has to offer!

Just because you dont personally know any Thai persons who could have written this, dont assume they don't exist!

[Motoon]

my first reaction after a few paragraphs was "this can't have been written by a Thai person".

i see a few others think the same.

so, if it is a fraud, what is the motivation,

who is the author, he/she must be a native english speaker.

i reckon it's written by a farang still in Thai honeymoon mode (the 1st 2 years).

He (probably a he) is married to a Thai lady, still has enough money and thinks he has found heaven on earth.

So, let's wait another 1-2 years and see what he posts when the money is getting low and the wife is getting greedy.

if,

he/she is a Thai,

love to meet and have a chat using language, logic, rational argument and all those good things that make up a proper conversation,

coz that's one thing i have never come close to in Thailand.

Quite speculative but a good example of a disillusioned "guest" in Thailand. Your remarks how a Farang/Thai relationship will eventually develop - although plainly stereotype - shows a degree of personal frustration so does your remark about having a meaningful discussion.

I have had great and fulfilling discussions with educated and smart Thai people which I would rate as on par with what I would get in my country, although I admit that many of these have been in Thai.

There are many issues in Thailand that frustrate me and I do my best to deal with them.

I feel sorry for those guys who obviously have little joy being in Thailand but somehow managed to get trapped and now only have forums such as TV to vent their frustrations.

[oldsparrow]

That's right Datsun24OZ, but there are differences between critic from the fellow country man and from the foreigner. Of course we can't go anywhere far from the traditional way just listening to our own kind but as a matter of fact too many have no problem about too many things here. I think the most practical way to make us prefer some change is good sample not critic and you can see that the local see more of how ex-pat westerners live than how the western system work in western countries.

[Motoon]

my first reaction after a few paragraphs was "this can't have been written by a Thai person".

Whether it was written by a Thai or a foreigner is, in the main, largely an irrelevance and a distraction. Whoever wrote this raised some indisputably valid points and made a fairly articulate and coherent argument. But in doing so, unfortunately and probably to a degree necessarily, displayed degrees of the same kind of generalization, stereotyping and lack of cultural understanding of the very group they were seeking to attack.

Good observation, I agree.

[t.s]

Intersting sentiments and incrediably well written for someone for whom English is a second lanquage.

I thought that initially too. On further reflection, there must be a fair number of Thais who grew up in multi-lingual households, therefore they could be considered native-English speakers of both Thai and English.

I agreed with most of the OP, but I am 99.9% sure that it was written by a farang, rather than a Thai.

why, because a thai couldn't possibly write that well?

i know plenty of thais who are indeed fluent in both written and spoken english.

there is one error in the op where he uses "stuffs" instead of the uncountable "stuff"

your beleif that a thai could not have wriiten this just reinforces the ops point, depite the fact that it was made in 2004

[samran]

That Thai who wrote the text, Is also complaining isn't he? He schould accept the truth, most Thai's are verry arrogant, although they smile and be polite. We foreigners just have different values and tend to complain more, not for nothing our countries are modernized. If they can't handle a little critics.....

Arrogant?

The words "pot", "kettle" and "black" come to mind.

"not for nothing our countries are modernized". My arse.

Oh, and what is "a little critics", Mr Superior white man?

Regards,

A non-smiling arrogant Thai.

[longstebe]

These make me laugh.

[Jingthing]

Whether it was written by a Thai or a foreigner is, in the main, largely an irrelevance and a distraction.

I don't agree and I don't believe it was written by a Thai. How can it be valid points from a Thai point of view if it is NOT a Thai point of view?

[JiveTalker]

The word farang is an ugly word. The author of the article would do better at chastising users of a general discussion forum if he had chosen not to lump us all into one category with the use of a derogatory generalisation.

[MKAsok]

I don't agree and I don't believe it was written by a Thai. How can it be valid points from a Thai point of view if it is NOT a Thai point of view?

Because the motivation remains the same. Even if it falls into the realms of fiction, that doesn't detract from its central message or make that message any less compelling. For the record, I do believe it was written by a Thai, because of certain parts of the syntax. Either that or it's an extremely sophisticated attempt to emulate the kinds of mistakes a Thai might make in syntax. Either way, let's not get distracted from the real issues eh jt?

Edit: Clarity

Edited June 30, 2009 by MKAsok

[bojo]

Isn't Pim (Co owner) of Citylife magazine (Chiang Mai) a Thai national?

I've read her editorial on a few occasions and am in awe of her command of the English language.

Even better than the OP I'd say.

Regards Bojo

[Gerontion]

I do believe it was written by a Thai, because of certain parts of the syntax.

I agree. For what it's worth, I do freelance editorial work here and I've no reason to doubt the authorship; it reads convincingly enough. I suspect that those who doubt its authenticity simply haven't met any Thais with a solid education. But, as you say, it doesn't really matter what nationality the author is. The request, "I feel that it shouldn't be too much to ask for more culturally sensitive comments from the majority of forumers" is simple, straightforward, and utterly reasonable. Sadly, as the responses here show, it is too much to ask, at least of the simian majority.

[samran]

I do believe it was written by a Thai, because of certain parts of the syntax.

I suspect that those who doubt its authenticity simply haven't met any Thais with a solid education.

most punters on TV...

[OxfordWill]

I think 99% of the bitterness comes from language issues. Being surrounded day after day by people speaking a language he cannot understand, the average westerner will become introvert, suspicious, lacking in self confidence and ultimately bitter. Sure, other things come into the mix (bad experiences with people etc), but I believe this to be the main reason for the average moaning expat. And the solution is easy- learn the dam_n language! I find that the more Thai someone understands the happier they are here, and it makes perfect sense.

Edited June 30, 2009 by OxfordWill

[eek]

Just to clarify, I am not the author of that well-written piece in my OP, nor am i Thai. It is quoted from a different forum that came up on a google search I made for something else. The link made me curious, so i took a look.

Also, the fact that it was written some time ago but still has relevance today is quite poignant i think.

[Datsun240Z]

That Thai who wrote the text, Is also complaining isn't he? He schould accept the truth, most Thai's are verry arrogant, although they smile and be polite. We foreigners just have different values and tend to complain more, not for nothing our countries are modernized. If they can't handle a little critics.....

Arrogant?

The words "pot", "kettle" and "black" come to mind.

"not for nothing our countries are modernized". My arse.

Oh, and what is "a little critics", Mr Superior white man?

Regards,

A non-smiling arrogant Thai.

Did you ever woke up?

[emsfeld]

And the solution is easy- learn the dam_n language!

Exactly - immigration even sweetens the deal by giving education visas to students joining accredited schools and enroling in approved programs. Maybe an incentive to integrate? Not sure. Given the price you have to pay for such programs and the benefits from it (learning a language plus an annual visa) sure beats many other (visa) options.

[Gerontion]

That Thai who wrote the text, Is also complaining isn't he? He schould accept the truth, most Thai's are verry arrogant, although they smile and be polite. We foreigners just have different values and tend to complain more, not for nothing our countries are modernized. If they can't handle a little critics.....

Arrogant?

The words "pot", "kettle" and "black" come to mind.

"not for nothing our countries are modernized". My arse.

Oh, and what is "a little critics", Mr Superior white man?

Regards,

A non-smiling arrogant Thai.

Did you ever woke up?

A little quiz for you.

Do you think that you're:

(a) Confronting the OP

or

(B ) Confirming the OP

As you're clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed, I'll help you out. It's not (a). I'll give you two attempts. Off you go, my boy.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Gerontion

[lopburi3]

The timestamp is 13-10-07, 08:35 AM and poster claimed to be in Lopburi. it got but one reply on the other forum; so believe that says something too.

[harrry]

That's right Datsun24OZ, but there are differences between critic from the fellow country man and from the foreigner.

And that just about sums up the problem. To me that quote exemplifies blatent racism and as such is abhorent

If something merits criticism why should the race of the person matter?

[Birdman]

Good points - never ceases to amaze me how many folk have a "them and us" perception about Thai's - as if they are somehow different, as if they can't and/or don't see or understand things like Westerners are able to.......... and an underlying theme to many of the threads that stem from incidents about Thai's or the "Thai way of doing things", which OP's share on TV, is often a very subtle suggestion of Western superiority implied discretly through add on comments, like "how could they", or "can you believe it", or similar.

With very few exceptions, I find many of these threads say more about an OP's ignorance or arrogance about Thai's and Thailand.

Thai's have the same concepts of right & wrong, honesty & dishonesty, loyalty/disloyalty. They have the same aspirations and desires. Thai's are humans like the rest of us, and the sooner folk who live here for the long run learn to read, write, speak and communicate with Thai's on much the same level as they can with their peers from back home, the sooner many of these preconceptions are dropped. Them and us preconceptions in the past were tied up in Western colonial attitudes (interestingly, Thailand is the one South East Asia country that was never colonised as Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma, Malaysia, HK were by Western countries).

Today, I believe "them & us" perceptions are preserved through the inability to communicate - to be able to speak to a Thai on the same level and with the same ability as one has to speak with a Western peer, very quickly changes ones perception of the individual.

....................

...you are right, but you clearly expect too much. The world is not perfect. We all have in our inner nature the same attributes, but we handle that differently. You can't expect everyone to instantly understand the local conditions. That has to be done step by step. Proper intention should be realized as the precondition, otherwise one has to look for alternatives.

I am surprised by your strong response. Others are apparently not - see the posts, which follows yours and ignore the wise words completely.

All beings have the same aspirations and desires, and that is happiness. But at the present times we are far away of understanding each other. Communication is one of the tools, but showing TOLERANCE is the key element .

[anothertorres]

2 things i just have to say here:

a) my neighbor has never been on the internet. but, my wife's co-workers have a better education than i have. when they send emails, you would never know whether they were white, black, thai, inuit, american, british and on and on. to those who doubt that it was written by a thai, i have no problem with your doubts, only that it sounds as if you think that all Thai people are uneducated and therefore cannot possibly write and speak excellent english. strange that anyone would think that way, unless the only Thais you know is my neighbor... who has never been on the internet and doesn't know what it is. and can't speak any english other than "good morning, good evening and Goodyear!".

ii) "farang". could you imagine what it would be like if we walked around in public in the US and called anyone who wasn't white a "Foreigner". "Hey, this is my foreigner friend, Somchai". or even , "Hey, meet my Asian friend, Arthit". it's a real shame that we're called 'Farang'. i'm fuc_king American, take a fuc_king second to find that out, remember that and introduce me as your 'American friend'. it's pretty dam_n obvious i'm not Thai, amirite??? regardless, i don't take offense to being called a farang, i just think it's ignorant as a country to accept such a silly term for someone who isn't Thai. and i know they mean no harm using that term for us, but it does lend the white man to have negative attitudes towards their host.

anyway, the internet is stupid. learn thai, learn english, happy world.

[Jingthing]

Either that or it's an extremely sophisticated attempt to emulate the kinds of mistakes a Thai might make in syntax. Either way, let's not get distracted from the real issues eh jt?

Many long term expats often incorporate Thaiglish syntax. Its a fake, clearly. So it doesn't reflect a Thai's point of view, just some poseur with an agenda.

[ucantbeserious]

this country is full of poorly educated workers,

living a dull repetition of working, drinking and having "fun".

heavily in debt, frequently gambling and pretending to believe in religion.

gossiping about neighbours, talk about the soapies and the weather.

this country is Australia.

my country.

feel free to criticize and most likely i will agree with you.

so..

why is Thailand a special case?

why does Thailand have to treated with cotton gloves?

what is wrong with speaking the truth?

==================================

yes,

personally, this punter has never met a Thai person who would have been able to write the original post.

(yes, i must move in the wrong circles).

i have listened to the current PM, educated in England i believe, i can't imagine him being able to write it (am i allowed to say that?)

i am not saying they don't exist, but also i can't imagine they would be wasting their time on forums.

should i be more "culturally sensitive"?

in Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. and try to understand and make allowances for stupid brutal behaviour?

My abiding thought nowadays is "Thailand - if only it were true".

[Jingthing]

It could have been written by a Thai who has lived a long time in the west and really internalized the western point of view. More likely in my view, written by a long term European descent person in Thailand who is putting on Thai airs and imagines that he has internalized the Thai point of view. I also can't imagine the PM of Thailand writing such a piece.

schadenfreude, indeed!

If I had a dollar for every Thai who uses that word in everyday conversation I could buy a latte at Starbucks!

Edited June 30, 2009 by Jingthing

[Gerontion]

Many long term expats often incorporate Thaiglish syntax. Its a fake, clearly.

Absolute <deleted>. How many native speakers decide on arriving in Thailand to start misusing prepositions? How many decide to convert uncountable nouns into countable ones? How many start to make errors with participles? How many make errors with tense? None. There are plenty of native speakers of English on this board who can't use their mother tongue but their errors are errors of native speakers and these are completely different to L2 errors. It's of course possible that it's a fake by there's nothing in the text to make me think that it is.

[Gerontion]

It could have been written by a Thai who has lived a long time in the west and really internalized the western point of view. More likely in my view, written by a long term European descent person in Thailand who is putting on Thai airs and imagines that he has internalized the Thai point of view. I also can't imagine the PM of Thailand writing such a piece.

schadenfreude, indeed!

If I had a dollar for every Thai who uses that word in everyday conversation I could buy a latte at Starbucks!

Good to see that a forensic linguist has offered his opinion. How did you deduce that it was authored by a European?

[t.s]

Just to clarify, I am not the author of that well-written piece in my OP, nor am i Thai. It is quoted from a different forum that came up on a google search I made for something else. The link made me curious, so i took a look.

Also, the fact that it was written some time ago but still has relevance today is quite poignant i think.

yes indeed, poignant.

is that like pregnant?

[Birdman]

It could have been written by a Thai who has lived a long time in the west and really internalized the western point of view. More likely in my view, written by a long term European descent person in Thailand who is putting on Thai airs and imagines that he has internalized the Thai point of view. I also can't imagine the PM of Thailand writing such a piece.

schadenfreude, indeed!

If I had a dollar for every Thai who uses that word in everyday conversation I could buy a latte at Starbucks!

Good to see that a forensic linguist has offered his opinion. How did you deduce that it was authored by a European?

It can't be done. I know Thais, who can speak and write perfect English and German.

[oldsparrow]

If some of you don't mind to believe poster on the net.

My brother in law had been in the UK for such a long time that he got the British citizenship (of course he is not the PM). My sis spent a decade in London and got PhD from Imperial College, after the first 3 years she got 8 for IELTS. Of course some of you may have encountered Thai students who had stay there for 1-2 years and write broken English like me but there are many other Thais who had stayed long and I have no doubt if they can write English.