The Expat Factor

[thaihome]

You make a good point. The Bank of Thailand does store US dollars as a reserve currency as an economic tool, and perhaps other major currencies as well. However, the Thailand retirement program is open to nationals bringing in any kind of currency and rightly so. The money is usually converted into baht and spent and/or banked. There is the benefit, the spending and the banking of it and the many multiple times that NEW MONEY is circulated around the local economy.

Ah, so you meant "new" money, not "hard currencies".

I certainly agree that expats bringing money into the country and spending it is a benefit. But Thailand, unlike some such as the Philippines, is not so reliant on it. But, no doubt every bit helps and it all adds up in the end.

TH

[Jingthing]

But, no doubt every bit helps and it all adds up in the end.

It is much more than a bit. When you add up official tourism income plus the much greater unofficial underground economy takings (houses in Isaan) plus the expat infusions, we are talking REAL money. Of course not as important as agriculture but surely a country needs more than one money stream.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Jingthing

[Heng]

It's a request - perhaps a foolishly utopian one - for the state to serve the people, rather than the current arrangement which has things the other way around.

And in the meantime, the people should take care of themselves. As the result of them just sitting around holding their breath, they're just going to run out of air. It's like watching people who stop running during a race, lie down and roll over... and then a few laps later start to suggest that everyone who kept running (without the gov't as parent) somehow cheated.

[Gerontion]

You're not very good with these similes, are you. The poor don't decide to be poor. You'd have to be a moron to think that. Are you a moron? They're kept that way by the state. A better (though not desperately good) simile for you: it's like running a 100-metre sprint but cutting the hamstrings of the poor and allowing the rich to bring their sports cars. And successfully driving your Ferrari in a straight line for a hundred metres doesn't justify packing your posts with the nauseating smugness which oozes from every one of them.

[thaihome]

But, no doubt every bit helps and it all adds up in the end.

It is much more than a bit. When you add up official tourism income plus the much greater unofficial underground economy takings (houses in Isaan) plus the expat infusions, we are talking REAL money. Of course not as important as agriculture but surely a country needs more than one money stream.

You do realize, of course, that manufacturing contributes over 4 times as much to Thailand's GDP as agriculture.

TH

[Jingthing]

You do realize, of course, that manufacturing contributes over 4 times as much to Thailand's GDP as agriculture.

TH

Yes but the vast majority of the WORKERS in Thailand work in AGRICULTURE.

[Daffy D]

It never fails to amaze me that ex-pats, especially in LOS, think they are so important.

Think of immigrants in your home country and maybe that will give you some idea of how we are thought of here.

I have been an ex-pat in several countries and none of them gave a fart about me, the ex-colonial countries tend to be the worst, so stop winging and get on with you life.

[Datsun240Z]

It never fails to amaze me that ex-pats, especially in LOS, think they are so important.

Think of immigrants in your home country and maybe that will give you some idea of how we are thought of here.

I have been an ex-pat in several countries and none of them gave a fart about me, the ex-colonial countries tend to be the worst, so stop winging and get on with you life.

Are you a socialist?

[Heng]

You're not very good with these similes, are you. The poor don't decide to be poor. You'd have to be a moron to think that. Are you a moron? They're kept that way by the state. A better (though not desperately good) simile for you: it's like running a 100-metre sprint but cutting the hamstrings of the poor and allowing the rich to bring their sports cars. And successfully driving your Ferrari in a straight line for a hundred metres doesn't justify packing your posts with the nauseating smugness which oozes from every one of them.

I'm the simile master actually. The poor decide to be poor with every single minor mistep they make, not saving a satang here, spending a satang they shouldn't be spending there, having kids they can't afford or care for, much less educate. Not giving out handouts does in fact keep folks poor, but it hardly is the reason why they were poor to begin with. All of humanity was at one time poor. Why do you think some prospered and most did not? Because some ancient gov't was suppressing them?

LOL. (at your comments and your nausea)

[samran]

You do realize, of course, that manufacturing contributes over 4 times as much to Thailand's GDP as agriculture.

TH

Yes but the vast majority of the WORKERS in Thailand work in AGRICULTURE.

not a very good use of these workers time then is it?

[thaihome]

You do realize, of course, that manufacturing contributes over 4 times as much to Thailand's GDP as agriculture.

TH

Yes but the vast majority of the WORKERS in Thailand work in AGRICULTURE.

not a very good use of these workers time then is it?

It's not even a true statement. With a work force of some 38 million (out of a population of 63 mil and about 45 million between 14 and 65 years old) about 15 million work in agriculture. The remaining 22 million don't. So not only do the "vast majority" not work in agriculture, it's only about 40%. You could even say the vast majority are not agricultural workers.

TH

[Jingthing]

Agriculture is by far the LARGEST employment sector. Satisfied now?

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/th-thailand/lab-labor

Employment in agriculture -- 42 percent

Employment in industry -- 20 percent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Thailand

Most of Thailand's labour force is working in agriculture.

Also, Thailand is the world's largest exporter of RICE and RUBBER.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[moo9]

Working expats bring expertise, which the Thais need, despite what they think.

If they listen to you....

[samran]

Agriculture is by far the LARGEST employment sector. Satisfied now?

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/th-thailand/lab-labor

Employment in agriculture -- 42 percent

Employment in industry -- 20 percent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Thailand

Most of Thailand's labour force is working in agriculture.

Also, Thailand is the world's largest exporter of RICE and RUBBER.

so 20% of the workforce are more productive than 42% of them.

And people ask me what opportunity cost means!!

[Jingthing]

so 20% of the workforce are more productive than 42% of them.

That's kind of ridiculous. Thailand needs its farmers. They are vital.

[samran]

so 20% of the workforce are more productive than 42% of them.

That's kind of ridiculous. Thailand needs its farmers. They are vital.

of course Thailand needs farmers, farms, and agricultural exports (as well as the related logistics and support industry). I never said it didn't.

Just it seems, you don't need 42% of the workforce to produce something that perhaps 5% could produce if they had the right tools and equipment.

It is called productivity....

Or, if you think I am being heartless, why don't we deploy the other 38% into other job opportunities, via upskilling, education etc etc etc. Might even just be cheaper to give the other 38% the dole paid for via productivity gains.

A country like Thailand needs to diversify its industry and skills base.

Edited July 9, 2009 by samran

[bungy007]

NO BRAINER, dude, SPend spend, new houses, news cars, new housing, you name it if our Thai Ladies want it and we can afford it, we spend the money, now on upscale side look at what the likes of Lotus, Carrefour, Global house, McDonald, etc, put in to the Thai enconomy, mainly with jobs, which mean money the their pocket SPEND SPEND BABY

Exactly! Furthermore, with the tourist sector deep in the toilet we expats are pretty much all that's left of foreign currency spending in the realm. Thus, we become more important as the days go by

[JR Texas]

so 20% of the workforce are more productive than 42% of them.

That's kind of ridiculous. Thailand needs its farmers. They are vital.

Thailand needs farmers. It also needs to improve efficiency via more mechanization and advanced irrigation techniques.

But if they move too far, too fast, the unemployment/underemployment problem will be magnified and social problems will be magnified.

And by the time Thailand catches up to the rest of the world in terms of its high-tech manufacturing base, we will live in a world where even fewer laborers are needed.

Thus, magnifying the already serious labor supply problem (i.e., too few quality jobs in relationship to the number of young people searching for those jobs). The labor supply problem simply holds wages down........moving all of the power to those that do the hiring/firing.

The only alternative I can see is a massive reduction in the size of the population, but that is a taboo subject.

But, as the economy continues to decline and not provide for a high quality of life for the masses, an increasing number of educated Thais will likely move to foreign countries where they can work and get paid a decent income. But it will only partially alleviate the labor supply problem

Personally, I see a collision happening between growing numbers of very spoiled, young Thais who need quality jobs and economic reality. This will only mean more unrest in the future.

Back to the topic, expats are extremely valuable to Thailand's economy in the sense that they are vital to sub-economies like Pattaya-Jomtien (and its link to Issan), parts of Bangkok, parts of Chiang Mai, parts of Phuket.

If you just try to figure out their contribution to the total economy, you miss the point.

[bungy007]

So you want to promote an "entrepreneur" society ? But is it compatible with the Thai "sabai sabai" attitude ?

As I mentioned, before we try to alter society as a whole, we need more captains and quarterbacks. The sabai sabai crowd should then have more jobs available for them to turn wrenches, push buttons, affix chips, etc. and still have plenty of time for their sabai activities or doing nothing. Those who want to go the hard way (the higher risk, higher reward route) as always are more than welcome to break ranks and hack their way through the jungle.

You very rightly point out the major problem of Thailand, an army of generals and soldiers, but nobody in the middle.

The question of why the uneducated stay uneducated is a very good question. Why some society can promote "good" social value and other can't ? Thailand had only survived because of the regular influx of Chinese and, to a lesser extend, Japanese, which answers the original question, but maybe not in the way the OP expected.

But to answer your post, as a society, as far as education and work ethic are concerned, Thailand is a failure. So maybe it's time for a change ...

Aren't we talking about a three generation societal change though? You are a bit impatient with the goal of changing things, no? Did an interesting survey once, up in a place out of Khon Khaen, a small town which was working with Senator Meechai's organisation.

it was interesting cause I got the chance to interview most of the towns residents, who were mostly old and retired farm labourers. One question was what their (grown children) were up to. In more than 50% of cases, they were working as doctors, nurses, engineers, etc etc. down in BKK. University trained, the new middle class, one generation out of the rice paddies. Wasn't a bad result for such a small town. The other grown children were working in the local Nike factory there, or working in Khon Khaen town itself in the service industry (7-11, Tesco/Lotus) etc. etc.

Their kids had to have the opportuntity from somewhere, and to a person, they weren't working in the rice paddy anymore...These things take time, and I'm more than hopeful.

Wow! You didn't think those stats were a little bit of face saving? Just a little teen weeny bit of a white lie?

[samran]

Wow! You didn't think those stats were a little bit of face saving? Just a little teen weeny bit of a white lie?

you raise a good point, but no. Not all of them were trained professionals to be sure, but most if not all, had moved on the little town, to either Khon Kaen or down to BKK. There wasn't even a resident farang with his obligatory issan wife.

[thaihome]

Agriculture is by far the LARGEST employment sector. Satisfied now?

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/th-thailand/lab-labor

Employment in agriculture -- 42 percent

Employment in industry -- 20 percent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Thailand

Most of Thailand's labour force is working in agriculture.

Also, Thailand is the world's largest exporter of RICE and RUBBER.

You are saying two different things. I agree agriculture is largest sector at 42% but that means 58% do not work in agriculture. About 22% work in industry with another 37% in services. So non-agricultural workers are the vast majority.

You mentioned that Thailand leads the world in exports of rice and rubber. That is true, but they also lead the world in the export of hard drives just to give an example of the types of exports that really drive (excuse the pun) the Thai economy. This is also directed at the poster that seems to think that Thailand does not have a “high tech manufacturing base”. By far, the biggest business in Thailand is the manufacturing of computer parts and integrated circuit boards, followed by vehicles and automotive parts.

TH

[CrossBones]

I would say if you look at the ecomony in terms of figures, GDP etc the our impact would be very little.

However if we look on a smaller scale we can see many people benefiting from selling us products and services and making a living from expats and tourists.

The breweries do quite well from us too!

X

Compare this to expats in Thailand, I'd dare say that most expats here don't work, so you are going to need alot more expats here to create just one job.

You are SO wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Each retired expat creates SEVERAL local economy jobs.

I don 't recall the exact estimate for the Philippines, but is it over five local jobs for EACH retired expat.

The hard currency comes in and CIRCULATES all around the economy several times.

Even in Thailand, do you really think we are tolerated because we SMELL good? Thailand is NOT Australia. It is a THIRD WORLD POOR COUNTRY.

The Philippines, economically quite similar to Thailand

Arroyo wants to turn Philippines into retirement haven

Posted: 8:24 PM | May 30, 2006

Lira Dalangin-Fernandez

INQ7.net

PRESIDENT Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo wants the Philippines to be a retirement haven for expatriate retirees, a billion-dollar industry.

At a Cabinet meeting Tuesday, she approved proposals to make the retirement industry one of her administration's flagship projects and appointed retired police chief Edgardo Aglipay as the "retirement czar."

She has also instructed the Department of Budget and Management to allot funds for the Philippine Retirement Authority to develop the industry.

In a presentation in Malacanang, David Paraiso of the Healthcare Coalition Institute said the country has the capacity to support between one million to three million expatriate retirees.

A retiree bringing in at least 1,500 dollars a month means 18 to 56 billion dollars in potential revenue per year.

The global population will see an increasing aging population mostly in developed countries, HCI said.

Aglipay said that currently, foreigners go to Malaysia and Thailand to retire.

He said the Philippines should create a world-class retirement industry with the support of the private sector and the government.

[Jingthing]

I would say if you look at the ecomony in terms of figures, GDP etc the our impact would be very little.

That's why Thailand needs MORE expats.

[Heng]

I would say if you look at the ecomony in terms of figures, GDP etc the our impact would be very little.

That's why Thailand needs MORE expats.

And more authentic Tex-Mex restaurants. But along the same lines, not quite make or break to the country as a whole either way.

[bonobo]

Working expats bring in expertise that Thailand needs to move forward. Retired expats bring in "free" money with little or no cost to the government.

Mexico has long and actively sought out US and Canadian retirees by making it easy for them to come and live. The Philippines is now doing the same. The reason is simple. It makes good economic sense.

As a percentage of the economy, no, expat impact isn't much. From various figures thrown around this thread, it might be as low as 1% or as high as 4%. But that is still a huge number, a number which affects a lot of people. How many countries in the world would turn down a 4% bump in their economy? How many would cry over a 4% fall?

[Heng]

I think the gist of these arguments are usually along the lines of (and made by folks who would be most likely to make such statements) 'look how much we benefit the country as a group, but PLEASE don't look at my details specifically because I might not be pulling my weight.'

Kind of like 'WE won the Superbowl this year, baby!'

'oh, are you a member of the '08-09 Steelers?'

'No, but I'm from Pennsylvania.'

All it would take is some in-depth research as to what types of fish are most beneficial and tighten the nets to keep the junk fish out. Simple. (might be a lot of whining and moaning in the background though) Might end up with a mix of... 'more Japanese multinationals, more Indians between the ages of 30-50, western retirees over 85, etc.'

Edited July 9, 2009 by Heng

[bonobo]

I think the gist of these arguments are usually along the lines of (and made by folks who would be most likely to make such statements) 'look how much we benefit the country as a group, but PLEASE don't look at my details specifically because I might not be pulling my weight.'

Kind of like 'WE won the Superbowl this year, baby!'

'oh, are you a member of the '08-09 Steelers?'

'No, but I'm from Pennsylvania.'

All it would take is some in-depth research as to what types of fish are most beneficial and tighten the nets to keep the junk fish out. Simple. (might be a lot of whining and moaning in the background though) Might end up with a mix of... 'more Japanese multinationals, more Indians between the ages of 30-50, western retirees over 85, etc.'

I would hazard a guess that most expats are beneficial, albeit to different degrees. I know a Dutchman who was injured in the Army as a private and has a miniscule, by Western standards, medical retirement. But he is married here, has a kid, and lives a frugal life. No, he doesn't spend the 1,000,000 baht per year that some posit in this thread is the average. But then again, what does he cost the Thai government? He still is inputting to the economy.

In Thailand, I see wealthy Arabs coming to BKK for long-term medical treatment, injecting huge amounts into the economy. I see Englishmen, living in Issan with their extended Thai familes, spending their pension to support these families. I see Russians in Pattaya (some perhaps laundering ill-gotten funds). I see Japanese coming to enjoy the good life of golf, drink, and perhaps feminine companionship. I see Swedes buying condos in Jomtien to flee to when the winter darkness sets in back at home.

All have one thing in common. All are injecting cash into the Thai economy. Perhaps the Arab medical tourists inject the most on a per capita basis, perhaps not. But all are valued.

[Heng]

Totally agree, although I would say many instead of most. Surely if they ever made an effort to do some studies, it'd be clearer.

That's not to say that it should be a free for all though. I only say that because in my experience, there are plenty of expats who are treading water with burnt bridges, that's treading with nose above water with a slippery downward sloping gradient underfoot. As to which solution is better, not letting them in the first place, periodically sweeping them out, or increasing their legal/work and property ownership options, that probably would require some study and trial and error as well.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Heng

[bonobo]

Totally agree, although I would say many instead of most. Surely if they ever made an effort to do some studies, it'd be clearer.

That's not to say that it should be a free for all though. I only say that because in my experience, there are plenty of expats who are treading water with burnt bridges, that's treading with nose above water with a slippery downward sloping gradient underfoot. As to which solution is better, not letting them in the first place, periodically sweeping them out, or increasing their legal/work and property ownership options, that probably would require some study and trial and error as well.

I understand what youa re saying.  i just think that the problem is not that serious from a viewpoint of the Thai government.

Since this is an English-language forum, let's take a stereotypical "lower-end" expat.  Let's take a 60-year-old male with a small pension living in Pattaya and hitting the bar life every night.  He has saved up 50,000 pounds and has his monthly pension.  He proceeds to drink and womanzie his savings away, in a year, and finds his pension is not big enough to support his lifestyle.  His condo rent is too high, he drinks too much, and without enough for the women, he sits and mopes.  Despite any criticsm you might send his way, from the Thai government's economic perspective, what is the problem?  He has injected something into the economy.  He may decide to go home, he maybe forced to go home when he doesn't meet visa requirments.  If he goes, he is no longer a concern to the government.

Granted, he is not as valuable, perhaps, as the retired CEO who has a nice beachfront condo in Karon where he can stay when he yachts in to play golf, or the Arab who brings in his extended family for a year while he undergoes cancer treatments, but he still is a net plus for the economy.

[thaihome]

I think Thailand makes it pretty easy to retire here as long as you have decent assets or income. I mean, showing $25K in a bank once a year should net be a big deal if you want to live in a developing country. I know a number of people that do this and none of them are bit bothered about it. Maybe other countries are even easier, but there may be lifestyle issues for some in most of them but with aging western world population, there are probably enough old people to go around anyway.

For working age people, if you have a nice package and income then it certainly is no problem and many would say it is one of the best assignments in the world.

For people trying to live on the local economy, it can problematic and these are ones I don’t understand very well, but it is their choice and I make no judgments about them.

At the end of the day, just about every expat contributes to the economy in one way or another. Just don’t get a big head about it and think Thai people owe you anything because you spend money here.

TH