Caught Teaching On Retirement Visa

[Scott]

Mario: I may have spoken too quickly. I will check with our Admin girl on TL and WP. I do know that the Immigration officer demands it for the extension.

[venturalaw]

I never understood this problem and it is the same all over the world. Why is it the employee gets all the problems when its the employer that is hiring without giving the proper documentation. The falangs go to jail when it was probably the person that hired them that said he would nt give them the work permit. Even if these guys agreed to working without the work permit there should be some blame on the employer.

Ive recently been employed for the past 5 months and was promised a work permit I never got it so I just recently resigned. But of course it would of been my fault right? baffles me

It's pretty simple - we are the foreigners and the business owners are (usually) the Thais. WP laws punish the employees, not the employers. One of the downsides of living here is that laws are not always what we as foreigners would think as fair, and often not fairly applied (between Thai vs. foreigner). If you don't like it, don't work here. If you don't care for the way the laws are written, and/or applied, leave.

[mizzi39]

Let's remember the rules are enforced differently in different areas. In our area, once the visa is issued, the WP takes up to 3 months. We have to apply for a TL(or waiver) before they will issue the WP. This takes time--and time is important because the non-immigrant visa will expire.

Also, some schools simply don't have the paperwork necessary to process the work permit. I am aware of a school which was sold to another party. The new owner hasn't been given the registration papers and thus can't make the application for the WP. The existing school has been around for a while and was properly registered. The new owner has been in the business for quite a while and knows the procedure. Attorneys are working on it. But still no papers. Maybe not enough tea money, I don't know. But remember a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

This is Thailand and things work differently.

This creates a huge problem for the foreign teacher then. Even with the Non B a teacher without a WP is working illegally. If they are forced to wait 3 months for everything to be processed, then that is 3 months of illegal employment.

If an owner (new or old) of a school cannot meet the requirement to get a teacher legal because of some bureaucratic "red tape" then that owner has no business hiring a foreigner in the first place so a WP would not be an issue.

[thaicbr]

Neverdie. Just having a bad day......... and i do get peeved when people post stuff like that. So apologies all around.

And as a matter of fact I do from time to time teach real English to the older students (private Uni age) to ensure that they understand certain things and do not get them selves into problems.

[Ijustwannateach]

No problems, Thaicbr- I have removed the off-topic incident, as well.

[ozzieovaseas]

It's interesting to see the technical issues being looked at here, about work permits,visas and the like.

When i was first planning to come to LOS i was told that all i needed was a tefol and i could teach english..NO PROBLEM!!

Of course the people telling me this were friends who werent in the know and all those standing to make money, good money i think for whats basically a 3 week rubber stamp qualification...provided you coughed up the US$1200.

At the time no-one told me (from the tefol institution or elsewhere) that a UNI degree was needed in order to get a legal work permit here....and yes i know, its up to the individual to seek out ALL the needs and requirements before jumping in.

Thanks to info found here on T.V, i scrapped my plans prior to paying for the course as it was clear to me then that having a tefol qualification was useless to me without having a degree.

Anyway, as for the the issue of these guys working without a permit and/or wrong visa, i would like to ask this:

1. How many people (who desperately want to work) are working on various other visas ONLY because its impossible for them to get a W.P without a degree? Maybe this applies to some of the retired guys.

2. How many people paid in advance for a tefol qualification (perhaps from their own country) INTENDING to get the proper visa and work permit BUT later found themselves working illegally because the first honest school they applied for told them (by law) they need a degree to get a work permit.

SO:spend years of uni study AU$25,000 + AU$1500 (tefol) and travel and set up in LOS = AU$30,000

THEN jump through visa hoops,immigration,risk trouble,rule changes,deal with shady schools and sharks ect

THEN get paid THB$35,000 (AU$1280)...A MONTH!!!..(based on these figures you would have to work for 2 years fulltime just to break even!)

THEN theres the added risk of catching moo floo

SHEEZ, you guys can have it, forget about fines and deportation, you guys deserve a blo0dy medal !!

[PeaceBlondie]

Usually, in most provinces, YOU DO NOT NEED A DEGREE.

[ozzieovaseas]

Usually, in most provinces, YOU DO NOT NEED A DEGREE.

So what you are saying is you can get a teaching job and the relevant legal work permit in the provinces?

[Mario2008]

Usually, in most provinces, YOU DO NOT NEED A DEGREE.

So what you are saying is you can get a teaching job and the relevant legal work permit in the provinces?

It depends on where you apply. In most areas there will be no problem.

[thaicbr]

At the moment. but things can change here VERY quickly....

[RPETER65]

Glad to see that this was resolved with little fuss, given that those who were retired probably did not "need" the income to survive as such, but felt a need to contribute to Thai society whilest having something to do in their spare time.

There does seem to be a pattern emerging though..coincidentally in these tough times the enforcing of some laws are being reguritated to generate more income..just one example is fines for not stopping at pedestrian crossings and even a fine for jaywalking being looked at again..Just another example of those at the top directing the foot soldiers to "earn" more income..

Same thing happens in australia where traffic police are given a "quota" of speeding tickets and other misdemeanours that they have to achieve within a period of time..all well known but quickly explained as "benchmark procedures towards traffic safety" by the establishment...yeh right.

It seems the best thing a farang can do in LOS is sit around spending your money drinking beer and being the farang ke-nok that we are so often called.

Looking at the long list of jobs that farangs are prohibited to do, it seems our work is CERTAINLY not wanted here..

Sadly it makes me wonder at times if our prolonged prescence here would be tolerated if we were actually participating in Thai society and living on thai generated income alone.

Just lucky for some there are no such huge restrictions on foriegn nationalities working and setting up businesses (restaurants ect) in OUR countries.

Not sure what country your from but in the U.S.A. a foriener will need a green card with a right to work endorsement, not always an easy thing to get. What country do you come from where any foriegner can just walk in and go to work.

[Ijustwannateach]

Let's stick to the question of WPs on this thread, which is within the subforum guidelines and clear under the law.

[ucantbeserious]

"I signed my contract, took it to immigration (in BKK), and received my non B visa valid for 3 months. " mizzi39

really?

new law?

used to have to go outside thai to an embassy to apply for a non-B.

has it changed?

you used to be "safe" as long as the school had applied for your work permit,

many of course just don't bother.

it is typically insane if you want to get a teaching job on spec, it used to be like this.

arrive with tourist visa or stamp.

look for job.

get job.

get paperwork from school, go to foreign country thai embassy for non-B visa.

come back,

wait probably a long time for school to do paperwork for work permit.

wait for application,

2 visits to labour office.

3 months would be quick.

and

many schools simply string the teachers out with no intention of supplying a work permit.

blame the farang??????????

[mizzi39]

"I signed my contract, took it to immigration (in BKK), and received my non B visa valid for 3 months. " mizzi39

really?

new law?

used to have to go outside thai to an embassy to apply for a non-B.

has it changed?

you used to be "safe" as long as the school had applied for your work permit,

many of course just don't bother.

it is typically insane if you want to get a teaching job on spec, it used to be like this.

arrive with tourist visa or stamp.

look for job.

get job.

get paperwork from school, go to foreign country thai embassy for non-B visa.

come back,

wait probably a long time for school to do paperwork for work permit.

wait for application,

2 visits to labour office.

3 months would be quick.

and

many schools simply string the teachers out with no intention of supplying a work permit.

blame the farang??????????

When I first moved here I arrived on a tourist visa with 2 re-entries. Including extensions This gave me 9 months. I never had to leave the country in order to change my visa status. I received the Non B at immigration in BKK, and WP at the labor provincial office where I live.. Everything went smoothly because my paperwork was in order. The EP I work for has 12 foreign teachers. All of us are legal, and I have never heard of anyone in my department having a problem with visa or WP. It really helps when the program you work for knows what they are doing. Unfortunatly many programs don't, and this is where the problems start.

[jerrylee]

Work permit is not normally issued on a retirement extension of stay. As with everything there is the occasional exception. I have not seen any recent reports of new applications being accepted.

There is a clause somewhere for retirees to do voluntary/honorary teaching work for reduced bond money (bht 600,000),

in which case would a work permit be issued I wonder ... and, this may perhaps opens up more subject matters to teach instead of english language alone?

[lopburi3]

Have no idea what you mean by reduced bond money or any clause for retirement teaching but if you can find would love to read it.

[neverdie]

Neverdie. Just having a bad day......... and i do get peeved when people post stuff like that. So apologies all around.

And as a matter of fact I do from time to time teach real English to the older students (private Uni age) to ensure that they understand certain things and do not get them selves into problems.

No worries old mate, your good. Remember the old saying "Don't let the turkeys get you down".

The teachers life here in thailand can be very difficult for little reward. Good on you for keeping at it, hopefully you can make a difference to some of those you teach.

[walterego]

It's interesting to see the technical issues being looked at here, about work permits,visas and the like.

When i was first planning to come to LOS i was told that all i needed was a tefol and i could teach english..NO PROBLEM!!

Of course the people telling me this were friends who werent in the know and all those standing to make money, good money i think for whats basically a 3 week rubber stamp qualification...provided you coughed up the US$1200.

At the time no-one told me (from the tefol institution or elsewhere) that a UNI degree was needed in order to get a legal work permit here....and yes i know, its up to the individual to seek out ALL the needs and requirements before jumping in.

Thanks to info found here on T.V, i scrapped my plans prior to paying for the course as it was clear to me then that having a tefol qualification was useless to me without having a degree.

Anyway, as for the the issue of these guys working without a permit and/or wrong visa, i would like to ask this:

1. How many people (who desperately want to work) are working on various other visas ONLY because its impossible for them to get a W.P without a degree? Maybe this applies to some of the retired guys.

2. How many people paid in advance for a tefol qualification (perhaps from their own country) INTENDING to get the proper visa and work permit BUT later found themselves working illegally because the first honest school they applied for told them (by law) they need a degree to get a work permit.

SO:spend years of uni study AU$25,000 + AU$1500 (tefol) and travel and set up in LOS = AU$30,000

THEN jump through visa hoops,immigration,risk trouble,rule changes,deal with shady schools and sharks ect

THEN get paid THB$35,000 (AU$1280)...A MONTH!!!..(based on these figures you would have to work for 2 years fulltime just to break even!)

THEN theres the added risk of catching moo floo

SHEEZ, you guys can have it, forget about fines and deportation, you guys deserve a blo0dy medal !!

You dont need a degree to get a WP when teaching English, if you try getting a teaching licence that may be harder. (i know many many teachers... good teachers, in BKK but especially in the Essarn region with no degree. 99% with WPs some with teaching licences.)

A employee without a work permit must renew their visa regularly with teh exception of retirees and other marginal groups most are on tourist or 3 month nonb if the employer gets you a WP then you can renew your visa at an imigration rather than leaving the country thus saving the boss what he loves the most '$' and avoiding absenteeism on a trip to laos.

getting a WP is a piece of P*s cant believe the scaremongering i hear on here sometimes. (much as it is amusing and sometimes useful)

for cheaper esl acreditation try i-i tefl.

the logic of a 'crack down' in hard times is unlikely but TIT so who knows. It is likely that there are other reasons for the school becoming a splinter in the bib little finger. ie: competition with another school, an easy way to sweep the floor, political internal problems where the farangs just arent liked and there is want to rid them, a teacher pi#@ed a cop of when drunk at the bar last week etc etc.

It is well known by authoritys the delay in obtaining these permits and to assume the govt is actively searching for ofenders is absurd as any new employee (less than three months) will not have a permit relevant to his/her place of employ.

(juz cos ima teacher dont mean i can spell)

[delmersomsri]

Working without a WP is a serious offensive. It carries a jail term of up to 5 years under the new labour law. The regulations are how ever so that paying a fine is encouraged with subsequent deportation. Being on a retirement visa or being married to a Thai national is of no consideration.

Read sometime back that a farang was painting his house and was turned in for working without a permit. That's all I remember about it. Saw no followup. Can you shed some light? I'd hate to be left with shopping only.

[trucking]

It's interesting to see the technical issues being looked at here, about work permits,visas and the like.

When i was first planning to come to LOS i was told that all i needed was a tefol and i could teach english..NO PROBLEM!!

Of course the people telling me this were friends who werent in the know and all those standing to make money, good money i think for whats basically a 3 week rubber stamp qualification...provided you coughed up the US$1200.

At the time no-one told me (from the tefol institution or elsewhere) that a UNI degree was needed in order to get a legal work permit here....and yes i know, its up to the individual to seek out ALL the needs and requirements before jumping in.

Thanks to info found here on T.V, i scrapped my plans prior to paying for the course as it was clear to me then that having a tefol qualification was useless to me without having a degree.

Anyway, as for the the issue of these guys working without a permit and/or wrong visa, i would like to ask this:

1. How many people (who desperately want to work) are working on various other visas ONLY because its impossible for them to get a W.P without a degree? Maybe this applies to some of the retired guys.

2. How many people paid in advance for a tefol qualification (perhaps from their own country) INTENDING to get the proper visa and work permit BUT later found themselves working illegally because the first honest school they applied for told them (by law) they need a degree to get a work permit.

SO:spend years of uni study AU$25,000 + AU$1500 (tefol) and travel and set up in LOS = AU$30,000

THEN jump through visa hoops,immigration,risk trouble,rule changes,deal with shady schools and sharks ect

THEN get paid THB$35,000 (AU$1280)...A MONTH!!!..(based on these figures you would have to work for 2 years fulltime just to break even!)

THEN theres the added risk of catching moo floo

SHEEZ, you guys can have it, forget about fines and deportation, you guys deserve a blo0dy medal !!

Most of the teachers I have spoken to want to quit but they can't because they have families here and cannot find alternative employment ...... very sad situation indeed.

[Sisaketmike]

A group of teachers at a private Thai school in Bangkok have been summonsed to immigration for not having work permits. They are on their way to Suan Phlu now. Does anyone know what is likely to happen. Should they bail out of the car!!! At least one is on a retirement visa, others are on marriage visas.

I'm sorry for being so direct now. But what would other countries do if 'illegal' workers would take their jobs? It's all so easy if you want to teach legally here. All you've got to do is to go to the Labour dep. and tell them that you're working there. Your name has to be on the list of the Teacher's Council of Thailand, of course it's some paperwork, but is it really worth to go to jail, a fine and being deported afterwards? And the group of teachers had -of course- no idea that they should have a work permit, right? Never underestimate others. I can't really feel sorry for them, laws are laws. And we're only foreigners in this country. Those who're going the 'illegal' way, give all of us a bad name. And I'm very serious that there're already too many problems with farlangs who are doing other stuff like smuggling drugs................wake up.

[Scott]

Let's try to keep things civil. Negotiating through Thai bureaucracy is far from easy. Also, how things are implemented in one region may be vastly different from another region. The other point is that most farangs teaching English are not taking jobs from Thais. It's a niche that is filled by farang teachers.

Most teachers, at least when they begin teaching, are technically illegal. They start work and the WP comes later, this is technically illegal. I don't exactly think working on a retirement visa and smuggling heroin are quite in the same category.

So...there but for the grace of God...

[cdnvic]

Read sometime back that a farang was painting his house and was turned in for working without a permit. That's all I remember about it. Saw no followup. Can you shed some light? I'd hate to be left with shopping only.

I think that's more of a Thai urban legend than anything. I've heard of it but never have I seen it substantiated.

[Arkady]

I work for a UK company but do part time work here at a place in Bangkok, but no work permit, however I have a tax number and make sure that I pay my taxes.

Having a tax number and paying tax without a WP seems to be about the worse thing you can do. In addition to the risk of being arrested for being seen working, you and your employer have created a paper trail for both to be charged with a crime, although you can go to jail while the employer can only be fined under the new law.

My advice to anyone arrested for working without a WP would be negotiate fast, unless you have no particular desire to be in Thailand any more. The range of penalties for this offence is very broad and can be applied quite arbitrarily. In practice you will probably never be imprisoned for a first offence and are likely to get away with a small fine of B10,000 or less. However, they may also decide to deport you and you could even get black listed by immigration for a first offence, if it's a bad day and some one doesn't like your face. Appeal against being black listed is up to the discretion of the minister and you are not likely to ever be allowed back into Thailand under the same name, if this happens to you. There is a thread somewhere on TV about some one who got deported and blacklisted for a first offence, even though he his Thai wife had just given birth to their child a few days earlier. Having Thai family is certainly not taken into consideration as a mitigating factor and trying to argue this point and may even irritate them and result in a harsher sentence.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Arkady

[elkangorito]

If you want to know the law regarding WP's etc, got to the below site & download "Alien Working Act, B.E. 2551 (2008)".

http://www.thailaws.com/index_thai_laws.htm

Edited August 20, 2009 by elkangorito

[Scott]

Per a posters request, this topic has been moved to Thai Visas, residency and work permits.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

Working without a WP is a serious offensive. It carries a jail term of up to 5 years under the new labour law. The regulations are how ever so that paying a fine is encouraged with subsequent deportation. Being on a retirement visa or being marreid to a Thai antional is of no consideration.

This is why I gave up a good job when they did not give me my WP I am married with two kids a house plus a new pick up,,, to much to lose just for 40,000 baht a month.

I was told the same as mario . Being married to a Thai makes no difference the law is the law, and working without the right Visa and WP is breaking the law.

colino

Ditto Mario and Colino. Lots of track record of this in Thailand.

Kev

[KevinBloodyWilson]

One advice that I have been given by a Colonel at crime suppression is: Never ever sign anything. As long as there is no signed paperwork it can be made to disappear. Sign anything and helping you became a lot more difficult and expensive.

Waerth

That sounds like excellent advice. or if you must sign (for cash or something), make it a scribble and NOT your usual signature. Making a scribble is easy, most western sigs are that anyway.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

Well these days you can get a work permit on a 'non O retirement visa' so not taking the piss really. Also it was the schools job to get the bloody work permit in the 1st place. Why is it that the people at the school dont get done as well.

I waited over a year to get my work permit . cos i got lots of <deleted> and bullshit from the admin.

Are you sure you can get a work permit on a retirement visa? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of 'retirement', or am I missing something somewhere?

Incidentally, I hope you don't teach your pupils to speak/write/spell the way you do.

Sunbelt reported succes last year in getting a WP for someone on a retirement extension, in Bangkok. It seems to depend on your local labour office if they will allow it or not.

That might have been me, though I know there were a couple of others too.The law changed a few weeks ago, about a month before the WP needed to be renewed, so I didn't get the extension. I had this checked by 2 lawyers who both said the same thing.

Gives me a problem with the company I bought from **** on the assurance that this would not and could not happen, but a Non-Immigrant visa is possible. Not from **** though, they should have known the law changed and they should have told me before renewing my retirement visa at the usual price. For me that was the absolute last straw with ****.

Kev

[OxfordWill]

About signatures though- when I get fined for some traffic offence the cop signs MY name in english for me. How am I gonna later prove I didnt sign it? Just because it doesnt match my passport signature? Well who checked that it did to begin with? I dont think that advice about signing holds any water. Not unless its notarised/witnessed in some formal way