Dealing With Disruptive Students.

[garro]

I think that it can sometimes be a bit difficult to admit that you have disruptive students. There can be this tendency to blame it on the teacher; at least in our school. Here is an article about it. Any comments?

www.associatedcontent.com/article/1967180/teaching_in_thailand_dealing_with_disruptive.html?cat=16

[Scott]

But Garro, surely you jest! Disruptive students are always the fault of the teacher. Just ask our school Administrators. "Teacher no good, students not listen."

I've been through this for years with the Thai Administration. We have a few classes that are so disruptive, and the teachers have been blamed so much, that one class went through 5 homeroom teachers in one year. The students who were good in one class have now transferred to other schools and the Thai Admin asked the other day what we should do. I told them I answered the question 3 years ago but they didn't want to hear it then and I wasn't answering it again.

The sad part about the class is that there are a lot of nice kids in there. They are rambunctious and a bit naughty, but they were bright, talkative and able to learn. They have been allowed to run amok for years and no longer even have the slightest idea of how to behave in class. They have now pretty much lost the ability to focus and learn. The school, in a desperate attempt to correct it, has moved one teacher to a disciplinarian role who focuses on this class and one other. There continued misbehavior will likely be his fault and he will end up leaving as well.

My strategy with the foreign teachers is prioritize misbehavior. Students who are actively preventing others from learning are isolated--either put in the hallway or stand at the back of the class. Those who are not paying attention, but not distracting others are allowed to stay. These punishments are short. A few minutes out, then a short discussion about paying attention and they are back in. If they continue to misbehave, back out. Etc. etc.

As for boring lessons--well, they go with the territory. If you don't like math or English or science, then those lessons are boring.

[garro]

Thanks Scott, I think that you make valid points. The problem for me is that at our school excluding children from the classroom is viewed as yet another sign that you can't control your class. No failing students, no causing waves with the parents; it can be very frustrating.

[thaicbr]

Blimey. Garro i think you must be at the same school as me

[garro]

Blimey. Garro i think you must be at the same school as me

I hope for your sake not

I have only taught in Thailand. I wonder if this type of thing happens in other countries with teachers afraid to admit they have problems.

[Ijustwannateach]

In a school where the students can't be at fault, even behaviourally, there can be no successful learning at all.

A lot of the times you see this happening at the lower private-end schools where the families are a lot of nouveaux riches who are full of themselves and how perfect and blameless they are (and where there is a lot of abusive neurosis around spoiling the kids in the guise of 'giving them a better childhood than I had' without real adult attention).

No way to win. If you are at a school like this, find another job as soon as possible. These schools will eventually (and should) fail- there are plenty of better places out there to take their market share.

[mizzi39]

Thanks Scott, I think that you make valid points. The problem for me is that at our school excluding children from the classroom is viewed as yet another sign that you can't control your class. No failing students, no causing waves with the parents; it can be very frustrating.

We are told by our Thai administration that if a student is being disruptive "eject them" from the class, and then they meet with the director of EP (my boss), along with myself after I finish the class. The acute loss of face works wonders in these instances. These situations can be very frustrating if you have very little to no support from above.

[Scott]

I usually have the teachers boot them out of the class and part of my job is to run interference with the Thai Admin. My basic point with them is simple: The teacher can't teach if he is attending to students who won't listen/behave in class. Therefore, someone needs to be out of the class. Reluctantly, they agree. In defense of the Thai Admin, however, they want the situation dealt with, which is done as quickly as possible.

If the student agrees to sit down, behave and do their work, they are back in. If not, they remain out of the class. Most students don't require a lot of effort to get to the bottom of the problem and get them back in class and most are quite concerned that I will take further action--such as call their parents etc.

Once in a while a student is so angry with another student (or the teacher) that they must remain out of the class. I usually let them know it's OK to be angry and I keep them in my office until they are settled down (usually doing their work, if possible). Then there is a discussion. Thai students would just as soon avoid any further confrontation so the problem is over. In cases like that, however, I never risk sending them back to the class until that teacher is gone.

On rare occasions, because teachers are human, I send the teacher to his/her office and put a sub in. I don't want either teachers or students being left in a situation that has the potential to escalate in something quite unnecessary.

[bungy007]

In a school where the students can't be at fault, even behaviourally, there can be no successful learning at all.

A lot of the times you see this happening at the lower private-end schools where the families are a lot of nouveaux riches who are full of themselves and how perfect and blameless they are (and where there is a lot of abusive neurosis around spoiling the kids in the guise of 'giving them a better childhood than I had' without real adult attention).

No way to win. If you are at a school like this, find another job as soon as possible. These schools will eventually (and should) fail- there are plenty of better places out there to take their market share.

You should move on. These schools are a vehicle for nouveaux riche to obtain 'a qualification' rather than earn one. Indeed, a large number of these spoilt kids will go to university with the same frame of mind and study fees/tea money will secure them a degree.

Having said that, the no-fail policy and the 'molly codling' of children is part of the culture out here and you aren't going to change it. If you can't find a school that respects you enough to ensure that you aren't put into this position (are there any out there?) then best to try another country like Japan.

[garro]

Our school isn't just happy with a no-fail policy they want every student to get at least 70%; this is not just an aspiration they have demanded it. I do sometimes think about moving school but it's hard when you have a family, and I couldn't bring myself to abandon a school half way through the school year. There are some good about the school though.

[phetaroi]

But Garro, surely you jest! Disruptive students are always the fault of the teacher. Just ask our school Administrators. "Teacher no good, students not listen."

I've been through this for years with the Thai Administration. We have a few classes that are so disruptive, and the teachers have been blamed so much, that one class went through 5 homeroom teachers in one year. The students who were good in one class have now transferred to other schools and the Thai Admin asked the other day what we should do. I told them I answered the question 3 years ago but they didn't want to hear it then and I wasn't answering it again.

The sad part about the class is that there are a lot of nice kids in there. They are rambunctious and a bit naughty, but they were bright, talkative and able to learn. They have been allowed to run amok for years and no longer even have the slightest idea of how to behave in class. They have now pretty much lost the ability to focus and learn. The school, in a desperate attempt to correct it, has moved one teacher to a disciplinarian role who focuses on this class and one other. There continued misbehavior will likely be his fault and he will end up leaving as well.

My strategy with the foreign teachers is prioritize misbehavior. Students who are actively preventing others from learning are isolated--either put in the hallway or stand at the back of the class. Those who are not paying attention, but not distracting others are allowed to stay. These punishments are short. A few minutes out, then a short discussion about paying attention and they are back in. If they continue to misbehave, back out. Etc. etc.

As for boring lessons--well, they go with the territory. If you don't like math or English or science, then those lessons are boring.

I think it's a short-cut to always blame the administrators. I was an administrator -- in the US -- and have never worked in a school in Thailand. But, my years as an administrator came after 13 years in the classroom, some of those years in very good schools, but a few of those years in schools that were inner-suburban areas of high-minority population...in other words, not the most ideal of environments, but also not quite inner-city.

It's just as much of a short-cut to always blame the teacher. Fewer people are nowadays willing to put the blame where it really lies -- with the offending students.

I think you do make some good points. I was reminded of my first two years of teaching. First, as a student teacher, I watched the very same students that I had in science drive a student teacher in English right out of the building and a career. I sat down a few days later with a boy named Danny Grife (although it should have been Grief!) and asked him why. We had quite a long chat and he outlined better than a professional evaluator could have done exactly why the English student teacher should never become a real teacher. And then he said, "It's our job to weed out the weak ones."

After my student teaching experience I replaced a teacher who had been fired midway through the year. In fact, I was -- believe it or not -- the 13th teacher in that classroom that year!!!!! The department chair actually said (in the presence of the principal), "We don't really expect you to teach. Just keep the lid on." Two weeks later the chair and principal came in for a visit. Students were in the middle of a lab, had science notebooks. And were all on task. Frankly, they were astonished.

Now, lest you think I'm bragging, I also remember my 13th (and last) year of teaching. Things were great as always with my average-ability classes, but I felt I was a failure with two of my lower-ability classes. I never connected with them.

You are certainly right about "boring lessons" being part of the territory. To begin with, not everything is exciting. Second, not everyone is interested in every subject. And, as I sometimes would tell a student, "There is nothing more boring than doing nothing."

[Scott]

Well, Garro, we stay in a country where the laws always change, so the % may change as well. I always look at from the point of view that when they take the National Tests, the grading system should be a little more precise and those are the test scores that get them to where they are going.

We can, and do, fail students, but it is difficult. It requires re-testing and a meeting with the Admin, who decide if a student can fail. It's not much better, but there is a little wiggle-room. We also fail students caught cheating. Even that gets difficult as some teachers will say, but he hadn't cheated yet! He only had the answers to the questions at the end of the test, so it shouldn't count! I never buy that argument.

[garro]

Well, Garro, we stay in a country where the laws always change, so the % may change as well. I always look at from the point of view that when they take the National Tests, the grading system should be a little more precise and those are the test scores that get them to where they are going.

We can, and do, fail students, but it is difficult. It requires re-testing and a meeting with the Admin, who decide if a student can fail. It's not much better, but there is a little wiggle-room. We also fail students caught cheating. Even that gets difficult as some teachers will say, but he hadn't cheated yet! He only had the answers to the questions at the end of the test, so it shouldn't count! I never buy that argument.

Last year we were told that if a student was given a low mark then we would need to stay after the year finished and give them extra work to bring their mark up. The Admin wanted to punish us for daring to fail a student. They knew that most of us had already booked flights home. One of the Filipino teachers gave his students extra marks for going to clean the school toilets. What a system!

[Scott]

Our school is similar. We have to retest them, but it is during the holiday period.

We have some teachers who do this, which is admirable, but most just give them the 50%. A few will give them extra-credit work to bring the grade up, which I think is OK.

And yes, it is a very interesting system!

[Scott]

This thread is starting to stray a little bit. I think we are talking about two different things, but very often they overlap--one is disruptive students and the other is the grading system in Thailand. The majority of disruptive students are also the ones who fail, but we have a significant number of students who are well behaved and still have academic problems. We also have a significant number of disruptive students, who are bright and achieve well in the classroom.

There is also a big difference in students depending on age, or should I say hormone level? Around second semester of G. 8 and first semester of G. 9, a lot of students just go ballistic. Around G. 10 they seem to settle down again. Of course, there are those students who were bad when they were 6 yrs. old and continue to be bad all the way through.

[elkangorito]

I think I should thank my lucky stars.

I teach at a college (16 to 20+ year old students) & I only have one disruptive class, which happens to be the last class of the week (Fridays, 1700 to 1800). They are, however, now very easy for me to control. My Thai colleague has trouble controlling them, so much so that she gives them a break just so she can 'recoup' her energy before she joins me to continue teaching them.

I use a "trade off" system, whereby I trade time for speed & performance...an "early mark" (only 15 minutes). If speed or performance is not up to scratch, they stay until I'm satisfied...even if it means staying after 1800. The result is undivided attention & I usually get very good results from these otherwise disruptive students. They also know that I have a sense of humour & we can all have a good laugh.

Of course, the other thing is that I allow all of my students to know me as a person (should they wish so) & not just some higher ranking being. They all know that I smoke & like to drink beer. I even drink with some of them on the odd occasion (in a public place, well & truly after college hours). They see me as an "equal being" but also as their teacher. They seem to clearly know the boundaries about when I am a teacher & when I am "me".

I, under no circumstances, will open my personal "floodgates" to my students. This would lead to complete disaster. I know my limits & my students also know their limits with me. It's very clear.

Additionally & slightly off topic, the current system in Thailand permits students to "grade" teachers. This has only happened to me once at my college & it has never happened again. It will never happen again.

Why?

Quite simply & after my first experience of this "grading", I voiced my disapproval of such a system, complete with all the reasons why such a system is flawed. I also said that I will not teach if I am to be graded by students.

On the other hand, I did recommend that all students be given the individual right to complain about a teacher, given that a "fair & just trial" would be made available to all concerned. No "kangaroo courts". No "one sided" comments without the accused being present etc etc. Of course, I also said that a 3rd &/or 4th party be present at such inquisitions.

All of these things have worked for me, so again I thank my lucky stars.

[phetaroi]

This thread is starting to stray a little bit. I think we are talking about two different things, but very often they overlap--one is disruptive students and the other is the grading system in Thailand. The majority of disruptive students are also the ones who fail, but we have a significant number of students who are well behaved and still have academic problems. We also have a significant number of disruptive students, who are bright and achieve well in the classroom.

There is also a big difference in students depending on age, or should I say hormone level? Around second semester of G. 8 and first semester of G. 9, a lot of students just go ballistic. Around G. 10 they seem to settle down again. Of course, there are those students who were bad when they were 6 yrs. old and continue to be bad all the way through.

First, Scott, this is not directed at you. A continuing theme in this thread, and to some extent this forum, is how everything is unique to Thailand.

"The majority of disruptive students are also the ones who fail" -- no different than in the States.

"we have a significant number of students who are well behaved and still have academic problems" -- no different than in the States.

"We also have a significant number of disruptive students, who are bright and achieve well in the classroom." -- no different than in the States

"There is also a big difference in students depending on age, or should I say hormone level?" -- no different than in the States.

"Around second semester of G. 8 and first semester of G. 9, a lot of students just go ballistic. Around G. 10 they seem to settle down again." -- In the States, the highest suspension/expulsion rates are in grades 8 and 9. The rates begin to drop off as students enter the 10th grade, although in the later high school years the offenses are less common but often more serious.

What is different, and apparently significant, is the grading system...or is it?

[Scott]

I did not, nor have I ever implied, that there is a difference between students in Thailand and anywhere else--at least anywhere I have been. Kids are kids and the process of growing up is more or less difficult everywhere. There is a whole lot to learn, and I am not talking about school learning, I am talking about being a responsible adult.

Adolescents need to learn to control their temper and impulsive behavior and this is most difficult when there is the hormonal rush that occurs at certain ages that usually correspond to a certain grade range. One of the most important roles a teacher will ever play is in helping kids through this time and letting them know it's part of growing up. It's further complicated by the fact that the job of a teacher is to teaching a subject. This can be difficult if students are disruptive and allowed to be disruptive.

I think we need to understand that the situation that teachers complain about will likely get worse. As the number of years of education available to all students is extended, there will be more students using less resourses and more students that 15 years ago in the classroom that would have been out of school and working in the rice field.

As for the grading system is it different....well, yes it is. In other countries students can and do fail. Is there to pressure them, of course. Are kids passed on that should, certainly. However, in most places (at least at the high school level), a student can fail. As one of my teachers said to a friend of mine in school: "I'm giving you a D-- because I never want to see you again." Both were happy.

The criticisms I have are aimed at the overall education system and high level administration of schools that set policies, rules and regulations that are counterproductive to achieving anything that is educationally worthwhile and is likely to undermine the overall goal of having students grow up to be responsible adults.

[garro]

The difference between Thailand and my home country is the message being sent to students. I am not proud of the fact that I was a very disruptive student who ended up being expelled from school in third year. If I had of been a student in my current school I would have been rewarded with A's and B's for my behaviour. See the difference? Getting kicked out of school did me the world of good and when I was ready to go back and repeat my education in my twenties it made me more appreciative of the experience. You can't expect student's to value something that is given to them so cheaply. If I was a student in my school I would be completely taking the piss; the real wonder is why some Thai students even bother to do any work. No it is not the student's fault it is a system that rewards bad behviour that is the real villain here.

[markg]

There are soooo many reasons for kids behaving badly. The teacher, the quality of the lesson, and administrative support being just 3 of them.

I've had teachers say to me that certain classes are 'absolutely out of control and unteachable'

However, a few hours later, we went to observe that very same class being given a maths lesson by a very strict Thai teacher. All the kids were sat there in silence, with notebooks and pens, dutifully copying down algebra from the board.

What do we learn from this? The kids clearly CAN be taught and their behaviour clearly can be controlled. There's nothing chemically wrong with them.

Kids behave differently for different teachers, i think that's pretty much factual.

So why do native English teachers complain so much about bad behaviour?

As has been stated on here, admin often support the students who say they can't understand the teacher.

The teachers sometimes just don't connect with the kids.

Most English teachers can't speak enough Thai to use logical cause and affect arguments to keep the behaviour in check.

Historically, many EFL lessons have been given by 'teachers' just passing through, working on a tourist visa for a few months to fund the next part of their trip. Some of the kids have never had a well managed and well presented English lesson.

I believe they subconsciously hit the bad-behaviour button when it's English - because that's the way it's always been.

It's very possibly the same the world over.

I've recently written some university papers on this subject.

A couple of statistics;

70% of teachers leaving the profession state bad student behaviour as their number one reason (from a study in America)

5% of students cause 90% of the problems in class.

If that is so, and i believe it pretty much is, then we can start trying to improve classroom discipline by focusing on those 5% of students, which may just be 2 or 3 kids. Deal with them, however you can, and you stand a better chance of getting the rest of the class to behave.

A rather useful tool i have employed is the video camera on my phone. If their behaviour becomes unacceptable, i video them, burn it to DVD and show it to the principal. No discussion. No 'we didnt understand teacher'. No argument.

The principal gets the kids in and deals with it.

The net result is then that i only have to flip the screen down on my phone and the kids start behaving. This would probably be illegal in the US and the UK - some sort of violation of the students' rights. But it's not illegal here and it works for me.

[phetaroi]

I did not, nor have I ever implied, that there is a difference between students in Thailand and anywhere else--at least anywhere I have been.

Scott, please go back and read my OP. I specifically said that my comments were NOT directed at you. You are an excellent poster. Clearly one of the most thoughtful in the forum.

I think we need to understand that the situation that teachers complain about will likely get worse. As the number of years of education available to all students is extended, there will be more students using less resourses and more students that 15 years ago in the classroom that would have been out of school and working in the rice field.

You know, this is very interesting and reminds me very much of what American teachers continually comment on in regard to special education students that are now more apt to be mainstreamed, while in the past they were in "self-contained" classes.

As for the grading system is it different....well, yes it is. In other countries students can and do fail. Is there to pressure them, of course. Are kids passed on that should, certainly. However, in most places (at least at the high school level), a student can fail. As one of my teachers said to a friend of mine in school: "I'm giving you a D-- because I never want to see you again." Both were happy.

I think this may vary more than you realize, at least in the States. I have just learned that the school where I used to be Principal will no longer give students a mark of less than 50%, even if they do not turn the work in. Duuuuuuh. And, my school is in one of the largest of the dozen largest school systems in the United States.

The criticisms I have are aimed at the overall education system and high level administration of schools that set policies, rules and regulations that are counterproductive to achieving anything that is educationally worthwhile and is likely to undermine the overall goal of having students grow up to be responsible adults.

And so the question for those of you who are working in Thai schools is, "What will you do to change it, or will you just continue to moan and groan?" Again, Scott, I am not aiming that question at you.

[phetaroi]

The difference between Thailand and my home country is the message being sent to students. I am not proud of the fact that I was a very disruptive student who ended up being expelled from school in third year. If I had of been a student in my current school I would have been rewarded with A's and B's for my behaviour. See the difference? Getting kicked out of school did me the world of good and when I was ready to go back and repeat my education in my twenties it made me more appreciative of the experience. You can't expect student's to value something that is given to them so cheaply. If I was a student in my school I would be completely taking the piss; the real wonder is why some Thai students even bother to do any work. No it is not the student's fault it is a system that rewards bad behviour that is the real villain here.

Overall I think you have a very good post. I would disagree that it's not the fault of the student. In any almost any culture, and particularly a Buddhist culture, one's personal responsibility is paramount, at least once you are of sufficient age to understand moral teachings.

[markg]

"What will you do to change it, or will you just continue to moan and groan?"[/b] Again, Scott, I am not aiming that question at you.[/color]

In my experience, it's just not that easy to change things for a whole variety of reasons.

My experience comes from working in a Thai school. Schools which run international curriculums, proper EP programmes etc may be different.

What you are proposing are massive changes.

1. In my experience, Thai educators have difficulty accepting much from foreigners. Really - our little English departments are not so important. Do you think our department could and should make wholesale changes to grading systems which affect all departments?

2. Use the 'no fail' rules to your advantage. Usually, end of semester grades are, zero is a fail, 1 is a pass and 4 is excellent.

Give failing students a grade of 1. Give students who have genuinely passed, a grade of 1.5.

The students, admin, future employers/universities and parents KNOW that students who only get a grade of 1 have effectively failed.

What's the difference if they get a 1 or a zero. We all know they failed really. And anyway, what are the consequences for getting a zero? They can't retake the whole year again and there just arent the resources to give them remedial teaching.

3. Make a video of bad behaviour in the classroom and give it to the admin. Students fighting, spitting, jumping on tables etc can then hardly use the age old defence of 'we didnt understand what the teacher was saying'. They know they are wrong and the video captures them bang to rights. See if the principal will show it to the parents and then see what happens the next time you take the camera out. They will sit down and behave better.

4. For older kids, try cutting them some slack. Let them put on a bit of make-up or finish off eating noodles or whatever. I generally have success with 'we're all studying, do you think you could join us after you finish your noodles' or something similar.

[phetaroi]

"What will you do to change it, or will you just continue to moan and groan?"[/b] Again, Scott, I am not aiming that question at you.[/color]

In my experience, it's just not that easy to change things for a whole variety of reasons.

Definitely true. In fact, change probably shouldn't be "easy". Nor should change be fast. Nor do Westerners have all the answers. So, the question is -- how can you be a tool for change?

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead.

[PeaceBlondie]

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead.

Indeed. But Margaret Mead didn't start by writing "Coming of Age in Samut Prakon."

[elkangorito]

So, the question is -- how can you be a tool for change?

Don't worry about this question. The simple fact that you are here in Thailand is enough to cause "change". I'm sure that many Thais would love "change" to happen quicker but this is rarely the case in any country. Change will come but it will come slowly...unless you're George W. Bush, who managed to set the world back 30 years in a small span of 8 years.